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Dota 2 |OT3| #BetterThenEllenPudge

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kawaiiiiii
<3

Honestly, Valve needs to make their own version of this and play it on every loading screen until it sinks in.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ugXC7g3p0JU

Every. Match. Until people get it. Teamwork and positivity win games.
 

Acinixys

Member
PSA don't feed in ranked games if you have a significant amount of money invested in hats (or at least steamrep the other 9 people for valve employee accounts)

http://www.reddit.com/r/Dota2Trade/comments/1v8cpb/q_steam_decides_to_freeze_my_account_with_my/
http://steamcommunity.com/id/zachberg/inventory/
http://priceyourinventory.com/inventory/zach-76561198041001220-inventory

I looked at his inventory

Defence 2 Wardog
Both Arcanas
All the TI Couriers

Dudes folks must be rolling in dosh
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
I really want to make some cosmetics for Clockwerk, how long do you guys think it'll be before they rework him?
 

manfestival

Member
Out of sheer boredom at work, ive looked at all the prices of couriers and well basically all of the regular couriers prices have dropped to rock bottom prices since the frostivus sale. Tempted to pick up hollow jack, itsy, and yonex... whats wrong with me? why couriers?!
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Out of sheer boredom at work, ive looked at all the prices of couriers and well basically all of the regular couriers prices have dropped to rock bottom prices since the frostivus sale. Tempted to pick up hollow jack, itsy, and yonex... whats wrong with me? why couriers?!

If you play support like me, having a nice courier is any time anyone will say anything nice about you in solo queue
 
I'm fine with opening the gates to muting and low priority more. Make the punishments more harmful. Give rewards for staying out of them.

I don't know if Low Priority really fixes things. Especially now that it's no longer a time period--you are in low priority queue for the next 24 hours--but a fixed number of games. Five, I think.

I have a friend, a buddy I went to school with and still drink beers with every now and then, he taught me how to play Dota 2. He sat in bot games, played support, and coached me on how to play. I wouldn't be playing Dota 2 if not for this friend. I don't like playing with him much anymore because he has a tendency to give up the moment there's a bit of adversity. He used to simply abandon games he was convinced we could not win and it was usually half the games we played, maybe more than half. That behaviour and defeatist attitude is kind of deflating.

I occasionally play matches with him still, he abandons and plays a fair bit of low priority. I've queued with him in Low Pro for the lulz. People intentionally throw their games to get the fixed number of games out of the way faster. I don't think further negative reinforcement help with "problem" players, it kind of encourages it.

I haven't played League of Legends but I've seen a GDC talk on how they try to address the toxicity of some of their player base with facts that they throw up on loading screens in between matches, very similar to that video. They tried positive reinforcement and it seemed to work better at improving player behaviour and attitudes.
 
probably a while, doesn't seem to be on the high priority list when you look at sladar.

We've been hearing how Viper is right around the corner for like over half a year now.

At least Veno finally came out.

I have a friend, a buddy I went to school with and still drink beers with every now and then, he taught me how to play Dota 2. He sat in bot games, played support, and coached me on how to play. I wouldn't be playing Dota 2 if not for this friend. I don't like playing with him much anymore because he has a tendency to give up the moment there's a bit of adversity. He used to simply abandon games he was convinced we could not win and it was usually half the games we played, maybe more than half. That behaviour and defeatist attitude is kind of deflating.

wait wait wait, do you play with ultrabum too?

To address that problem, yeah low priority could be better. I'm sure they're still tweak it as a set limit is kind of silly.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
probably a while, doesn't seem to be on the high priority list when you look at sladar.

Sladar?

I hope you can design custom cogs when he does get broken down. I want eight robot hands flipping everyone off in all directions.
 

shira

Member
I really want to make some cosmetics for Clockwerk, how long do you guys think it'll be before they rework him?

As soon as its released some idiot is going to make clocks for him and a big flavor flav clock. Its going to be so bad.
 

manfestival

Member
If you play support like me, having a nice courier is any time anyone will say anything nice about you in solo queue

I don't mind playing support but my top 5 played heroes are doom axe naix omninight and davion. Yet the only things I want in dota 2 are couriers :( ... Plus I made the mistake of buying items that I anticipated would sell better later on rather than buying the items I truly wanted during the sale. I bought the LGD skipper and captain bamboo with that mentality. Granted there are other couriers like the ones I listed that I wanted more. Oh well... selling them would be breaking even I guess
 

Nymerio

Member
They should make low priority like a dota bootcamp. You have to win 5 games while a courier must be up before creeps spawn, wards must be bought before creeps spawn and at least one ward has to be placed within the first 30 seconds of the creeps spawning. Flying courier has to be up before minute 5. Game does not count if you write in caps or ping more than two times per second.
 

ViviOggi

Member
They should make low priority like a dota bootcamp. You have to win 5 games while a courier must be up before creeps spawn, wards must be bought before creeps spawn and at least one ward has to be placed within the first 30 seconds of the creeps spawning. Flying courier has to be up before minute 5. Game does not count if you write in caps or ping more than two times per second.

Genius
 
They should make low priority like a dota bootcamp. You have to win 5 games while a courier must be up before creeps spawn, wards must be bought before creeps spawn and at least one ward has to be placed within the first 30 seconds of the creeps spawning. Flying courier has to be up before minute 5. Game does not count if you write in caps or ping more than two times per second.
Or like groundhog day where you stay in it until the system says you can leave but gives you no feedback. People will just slowly act better and better in hopes of finally getting out. Make it clear though that others have no effect on you so even if someone in your game snaps and steals the groundhog and drives off a cliff that's no excuse to not still act well behaved.

It would never work. But I want to see it happen. Mostly because few would ever get out and just quit the game entirely.
 

Nymerio

Member
The nice thing is you can make it even harder for repeat offenders. There has to be a ward up at at least one common ward spot for 50% of the game time. Starting items available in the shop are limited to when items and other items that actually make sense. Playing a carry with to little GPM? Complete the last hit challenge at least 2 times and hit the goal of xx cs in yy minutes.
 

Nymerio

Member
Or like groundhog day where you stay in it until the system says you can leave but gives you no feedback. People will just slowly act better and better in hopes of finally getting out. Make it clear though that others have no effect on you so even if someone in your game snaps and steals the groundhog and drives off a cliff that's no excuse to not still act well behaved.

It would never work. But I want to see it happen. Mostly because few would ever get out and just quit the game entirely.

Or, after they did their time in lpq just put them in games filled with bots that pull their names from random players that either don't say anything at all or say random stuff in Russian or Chinese. Once you're in there you're trapped there and never get out. I bet most people wouldn't even notice.
 

Anony

Member
so i bought a tshirt, and it came with a dlc card for lockless luckbox
now i don't care THAT much for items, so i'm thinking of selling it on the market place since it goes for like 22$
i checked the items inside, and 2 of the items are worth 30/50$+
should i take the risk and open it and try and make a profit? the other items are worth way less relatively speaking

also, it comes with a physical code, does anyone know if i can activate this code on my machine and store it on my account and it will be trade-able?
 

Granadier

Is currently on Stage 1: Denial regarding the service game future
so i bought a tshirt, and it came with a dlc card for lockless luckbox
now i don't care THAT much for items, so i'm thinking of selling it on the market place since it goes for like 22$
i checked the items inside, and 2 of the items are worth 30/50$+
should i take the risk and open it and try and make a profit? the other items are worth way less relatively speaking

also, it comes with a physical code, does anyone know if i can activate this code on my machine and store it on my account and it will be trade-able?

You should either take the risk and open it, or sell it.
 

manfestival

Member
so i bought a tshirt, and it came with a dlc card for lockless luckbox
now i don't care THAT much for items, so i'm thinking of selling it on the market place since it goes for like 22$
i checked the items inside, and 2 of the items are worth 30/50$+
should i take the risk and open it and try and make a profit? the other items are worth way less relatively speaking

also, it comes with a physical code, does anyone know if i can activate this code on my machine and store it on my account and it will be trade-able?
I have the worst luck when it comes to chests and I would open it. Granted I probably woulda bought two things from the store and sold the other luckbox
 
NEW SHAPER


Pure Shaper
Faris is not limited by a resource and may cast his abilities freely.

oh another one of those? and his skills? whatever nukes i got bored of this

The more important part is they added what are basically runes from lol in the game. So it's looking more and more like LoL 2.0.

The other thing is they added is "Karma" which is just commendations and then they added "Blessings" you get randomly by winning or having a bunch of Karma. That lets you randomly get other shapers and whatever they call the runes and in the future, cosmetics.

So overall it seems they're pulling a lot of stuff from both Dota 2 and LoL. I still don't really know how popular it is for the most part, since it's still "closed" and all. I know the Reddit isn't barren and their forums seem to actually be pretty active. It seems to be a relatively small team (like 50 people?) so I can't imagine it takes too much for EA to keep them alive especially since it's probably in their interest to have their foot in this genre. It seems to make the Twitch page when the devs stream reveals and games and stuff.

Thus concludes your weekly Dawngate update.
 
<3

Honestly, Valve needs to make their own version of this and play it on every loading screen until it sinks in.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ugXC7g3p0JU

Every. Match. Until people get it. Teamwork and positivity win games.

Do people rage because they seriously think it'll win them games? I've always thought that people rage because at that point they think all is lost and need someone to direct their anger towards like a punching bag. I mean I've never come across a situation where someone gets called a "LOL noob feeder" and subsequently turns it around because of said derogative flame.
 

Anteo

Member
So I just had an really fun game:

http://dotabuff.com/matches/471653675

Before the rune spawn I trap LC in a cliff, where she stays till min 3. NS said LC could use the grounded courier to get a TP there, I dont know if its possible, it may be with the cou range but I just said in all chat that there was no way so LC didnt try it before getting the courier.

I was underleveled for most of the early game but managed to get level 6 and steal some important spells, i actually got mirana ult a few times and that made some even fights go 100% on our way. Mirana was not bad with arrows but would often forget about her ult and not cast another spell afterwards.
 
Do people rage because they seriously think it'll win them games? I've always thought that people rage because at that point they think all is lost and need someone to direct their anger towards like a punching bag. I mean I've never come across a situation where someone gets called a "LOL noob feeder" and subsequently turns it around because of said derogative flame.
You'd be surprised. People flame someone for playing bad then demand they play better, for example. Except that kind of flaming only makes people more anxious and nervous, which tends to lead to even poorer decision making and performance. This kind of thing happens at the beginning, middle and/or end of matches; not just exclusively in garbage time when we're looking at individual report cards. Flaming happens when the game can still be had and helps ensure losses more often than not.

That energy is always and will always be better spent thinking about how to improve the situation, rather than barking at people for some current predicament. For example, flaming a carry for having low CS isn't going to help them get more CS. Maybe time is better spent looking at the minimap and saying, "how can we give the carry more space to farm?" "Do we have enough wards up?" "Can a couple of us baby sit them until they get a critical item online?"

Shit like that. Many will flame, but few think about how to turn lemons into lemonade. I mine as well own a lemonade stand given how positive I try to be. Even in the worst situations, I tend to not believe it's over and if we can help xyz person on the team get up a or b item, we'll be back in it.


Here's the GDC talk by Riot on shaping player bahviour...

http://gdcvault.com/play/1017940/The-Science-Behind-Shaping-Player

25 mins long, pretty interesting.

Damn, this was excellent. Do recommend watching in its entirety. After seeing this I'd love to hear from Valve how their team (which undoubtedly also has a variety of behavioral scientists and psychologists with whom they either employ directly or consult) go about evolving their punishment/behavior reform system.

Really, all these MOBA makers would do well to work together on this front. They all need the same kind of help.

I think Dota is a bit different than League and faces some unique challenges League has shielded itself from.

1.) Region locking. Spookie's last reply to me is really a case in point of the problem here. People are playing Dota 2 in regions far from their home region and speaking languages unknown in the region they've queued for. This immediately makes for a frustrating game all by itself, considering how important communication is in Dota 2. League avoids this problem almost completely by having different regions. In the hundreds of League matches I've played, I can literally count on one hand how many have been populated by people who did not speak English. Compare that to our typical Dota 2 experience.

2.) Dota 2 is, without any doubt, a more punishing game than League. That's neither a positive nor a negative, rather an objective truth. The ability to deny minions, the heavy influence of invisible heroes, heavy XP gain when killing an enemy hero, heavy gold lost when dying to an enemy hero. All punishing mechanics that do not exist in League. As such, dying in League has a lower overall effect than it does in Dota. Sure the killer gets a gold advantage and meaningful XP bump, but that's really it. They can't stop you from safely farming under your tower if need be. They can't stop you from getting all the CS you can safely collect because there is no creep denying. They can't stop your item progression very effectively because you're not losing gold when dying; just losing time. These things lead to people being largely more calm about a random death. One or two deaths in the laning phase won't spell doom and gloom like it can in Dotes.

3.) All-chat disabled by default. Let's be real: most of the talk in all-chat after the initial GLHF is shit talk. Which gets people's defenses up and tips the scales towards people venting on teammates when things don't go well.

4.) You can vote to surrender early. It's something I've used in less than 10 matches, but if a game is clearly unwinnable (and sometimes it's quite clear), forcing people to stay and deal with a negative experience for the next 10-20 minutes or more as the other team falls back to farm, Roshes, and attempts to buy every expensive item in the game when they really could just push to end only makes people angrier. Anger that carries over to the next game if things don't immediately start off well. Whether a surrender option is good isn't the point here so much as an analysis of what the lack of one can do to a player's mindset for his next couple of games. Sometimes getting a game over with quickly with a surrender can get the frustration out of the system before genuine anger and frustration set in. There is value in that.

Both games still have their share of ragequitters, intentional feeders, and ragers. But there are things both mechanical (how the game is designed) and technical (how people are put together and how they can communicate with each other) that result in significantly less raging in League, I've found. The contrast is fairly stark. All-chat banter in League is often playful, of all things. Even complimentary. When was the last time you've seen someone get owned and tell the opponent "damn...nice play bro." in Dota2? Just about never. That shit happens often in League.

Since Dota2 can't do anything about #1 and #2 because of the design of the game itself and the service (Steam), it will be interesting what ideas and implementations they come up with over the years to extract more positive play out of people who might ordinarily be a bit more defensive and hostile. A big start for many of us would be finding a way to address the language issues. Not being able to communicate because a teammate neither speaks nor reads English on USE/W just feels bad. As for #3 and #4, I do hope they continue to consider their options here, perhaps with some focus group testing.
 

Ikuu

Had his dog run over by Blizzard's CEO
Region Locking is easily one of the worst aspects of League and probably the main reason I don't play it anymore. Being stuck on a single region and only being able to play with one group of friends is horrible.
 
Region Locking is easily one of the worst aspects of League and probably the main reason I don't play it anymore. Being stuck on a single region and only being able to play with one group of friends is horrible.

It was terrible in Starcraft 2. I had friends I could never play with :(

They fixed it like years later.
 
You'd be surprised. People flame someone for playing bad then demand they play better, for example. Except that kind of flaming only makes people more anxious and nervous, which tends to lead to even poorer decision making and performance. This kind of thing happens at the beginning, middle and/or end of matches; not just exclusively in garbage time when we're looking at individual report cards. Flaming happens when the game can still be had and helps ensure losses more often than not.

That energy is always and will always be better spent thinking about how to improve the situation, rather than barking at people for some current predicament. For example, flaming a carry for having low CS isn't going to help them get more CS. Maybe time is better spent looking at the minimap and saying, "how can we give the carry more space to farm?" "Do we have enough wards up?" "Can a couple of us baby sit them until they get a critical item online?"

Shit like that. Many will flame, but few think about how to turn lemons into lemonade. I mine as well own a lemonade stand given how positive I try to be. Even in the worst situations, I tend to not believe it's over and if we can help xyz person on the team get up a or b item, we'll be back in it.

I just don't believe that when someone calls another person a noob feeder even at the beginning of the game, it's somehow because they think it'll make the other person play better. It's so obviously counter-intuitive.



On a separate note, should I sell my battle bonus items or is it more worthwhile to actually use them? I have a 200% XP gain for 2 hours that's going for $1.50 on the marketplace.
 
Region Locking is easily one of the worst aspects of League and probably the main reason I don't play it anymore. Being stuck on a single region and only being able to play with one group of friends is horrible.

...and people in this thread remind us all daily that they'd rather play with people who speak their native language (or at least read it), than not. The bane of many people's Dota2 experience is, in fact, the problem of language and accompanying customs/colloquialisms/accepted behaviors in their associated cultures and how all of those things clash rather dramatically with others who did not anticipate being matched with said parties when queuing say...USWest.

What would be your solution or suggestion to those people other than, "grit and bear it"? Any ideas?

Hopefully Valve can find a better happy medium than either they or Riot have found, but I for damn sure would be happier solo queuing in Dota2 if I could even marginally expect the other 4 teammates to speak a language typically found in USEast, knaamean?

I just don't believe that when someone calls another person a noob feeder even at the beginning of the game, it's somehow because they think it'll make the other person play better. It's so obviously counter-intuitive.
You're suggesting a standardized state of logic that doesn't exist in the real world.

In the real world, men beat their wives and children and believe it will yield positive results. Or at least fewer negative results. That doesn't make sense either, yet that's happening at this very second and multiple times for each word you've just read in this commentary, both here in the United States and abroad. Anger doesn't think logically. Sociopaths are the least reasonable people to apply basic common sense expectations to. After all, we're talking about people who are willing to rage at someone else...on the internet...over a video game. Toss your logic book right out of the window.
 

Ikuu

Had his dog run over by Blizzard's CEO
People like to blame language, it's easy to point at some kid who speaks Spanish than accepting their own flaws. Also League has the same issue in regions outside of the US.

There is probably no real solution, if you lock servers then you're fucking groups of people over, if you lock regions and languages (French on US East would be fine, right?) just ends up shrinking pools and increasing queue times.

Things like the chat wheel are more interesting solutions than just locking down regions.
 
People like to blame language, it's easy to point at some kid who speaks Spanish than accepting their own flaws. Also League has the same issue in regions outside of the US.

There is probably no real solution, if you lock servers then you're fucking groups of people over, if you lock regions and languages (French on US East would be fine, right?) just ends up shrinking pools and increasing queue times.

Things like the chat wheel are more interesting solutions than just locking down regions.

Yeah, region locking would have some negative impacts on the game, increased queue times and a smaller base of players to play with and against. II've had times where I've been upset with an inability to directly communicate with teammates and have raged in this thread about it but overall there's tools (chat wheel and mini-map) and the common language of items and abilities to alleviate these problems to some degree.

I've had good and bad games with people I couldn't verbally communicate directly with, which is no different from games I've played with people I could.

4.) You can vote to surrender early. It's something I've used in less than 10 matches, but if a game is clearly unwinnable (and sometimes it's quite clear), forcing people to stay and deal with a negative experience for the next 10-20 minutes or more as the other team falls back to farm, Roshes, and attempts to buy every expensive item in the game when they really could just push to end only makes people angrier. Anger that carries over to the next game if things don't immediately start off well. Whether a surrender option is good isn't the point here so much as an analysis of what the lack of one can do to a player's mindset for his next couple of games. Sometimes getting a game over with quickly with a surrender can get the frustration out of the system before genuine anger and frustration set in. There is value in that.

This is one thing I do not understand about Dota 2. Pro games have the option of forfeiting a match, public games do not.
 

Karakand

Member
People like to blame language, it's easy to point at some kid who speaks Spanish than accepting their own flaws. Also League has the same issue in regions outside of the US.

There is probably no real solution, if you lock servers then you're fucking groups of people over, if you lock regions and languages (French on US East would be fine, right?) just ends up shrinking pools and increasing queue times.

Things like the chat wheel are more interesting solutions than just locking down regions.

It's really an observation bias problem. Of all the silent PUGs I've played with, how many were silent because they didn't speak English? I have no way of knowing.
 

Strider

Member
just had a game where a teammate quit right after the game started bc he didn't get his hero of choice. Then because we were 4 v 5 the rest of my team decided to just sit in the base. What great fun that game was.
 
This is one thing I do not understand about Dota 2. Pro games have the option of forfeiting a match, public games do not.

To me that's good. I started playing some League recently and people seem to call for surrender votes all the time in winnable situations. Not having the option to surrender forces people to play the game out and I've had lots of times where we'll win games that people were calling gg on. Pubs don't have the experience to call early gg's.

That feeling when you carry your team and get no respect.

I used to think Ikuu would always be by my side to help me out and when I looked behind me I'd see our footprints in the sand side by side as we walked together through this life in Dota.

But I noticed that sometimes when times were hardest and the gg's were flying that there was only one set of footprints and I said to him, "Ikuu, how could you abandon me? Those were the times I most needed you!" and you know what he said to me? He said, "Patent, those were the times that I carried you."
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I looked at his inventory

Defence 2 Wardog
Both Arcanas
All the TI Couriers

Dudes folks must be rolling in dosh

To be honest, while there is a lot of stuff, none of it looks all that amazing to me. He has expensive stuff, not rare stuff. They aren't the same things.
 
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