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Dota 2 |OT3| #BetterThenEllenPudge
- Thread starter Artanisix
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Sigismundo
Member
So, in competitive play, it's possible to lane basically however the hell you want apart from defensive trilane, right?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470421928
literaly had alch, gyro, and invoker yelling at me both in party chat and in all chat
MalevolentPatent
Banned
Blink Alch?
Beautiful.
Edit: What were they saying Milk? I honestly can't imagine what they would find wrong looking at that.
I'm pretty sure it's still viable to play a defensive trilane, you just need the right heroes for it. It's just not the dominant strategy like it was in 6.78.
I, too, like playing one of the best initiators in the game.
Different incentive structures and game knowledge make for different choices. Pro's playing for money have a significant incentive to keep playing and trying to win, and they have a significantly more accurate ability to appraise how a game is going when compared to the average player. The average pub player is incentivized to quit the game as soon as they think they are losing because that is a faster way to get what they are trying to achieve (a win). I played HoN for a bit early on, when it was more of a straight up dota clone that had a surrender option. The proportion of games that make it to the end game is significantly higher in Dota. By having a surrender option you are not only getting ride of the "unwinnable" games, you are also getting rid of the games where one team has a percieved advantage but the game would make it to the end game anyways. The second kind of game vastly outnumbers the first kind. Now that I've tried both systems it simply does not make any sense to trade away a lot of the second kind of game so I can avoid a small number of the first kind.
As others have mentioned, this is a negative not a positive. The "issue" with foreigners is over-stated and a confirmation bias. I know I've played really excellent games with Brazilians (back when we could actually check people's profiles) and I've had many shit games with asshole Americans. It's an incredibly easy excuse to be like "Yeah, that guy with the shit ton of kanji in his name and the gibberish he kept muttering ruined my game" but in the end, if you can't understand a word he's saying then you're not going to be bothered by his flaming. I've had to play other co-operative multiplayer games on foreign servers and there are always ways you can find to communicate. This isn't even covering the fact that Dota 2 includes a lot of tools to assist with cross-language communication.
I'll take the random Russians on US East over never being able to play with friends in Europe. Besides, even if you region lock you'll still have complaints about shit solo queuing and the standard "play with friends or gaf" response regardless.
Yet many of these mechanics help to assist with comebacks. I haven't kept up with League in the last year but when I was playing it, the games were practically won over first blood and people would spam the concede button if lanes were lost. As you're not punished for dying, if the enemy obtains an advantage it becomes harder and harder to make up for the difference. Hell, I've had way more games where my team won even with a huge deficit at the end in Dota than I ever did in League from split pushing and the like.
Personally, I found League to be far more doom and gloom about a handful of early mistakes than Dota 2. I can't remember the last time I played where people were calling gg over first blood in Dota but that was pretty common with my time in League.
Now, to be fair, there is probably a skill factor at play here too. Whereas I didn't play League long enough to get out of the "trench" (bare with me), I rarely play low skilled games in Dota unless I'm on my alt account with friends. And I do notice more toxic behaviour in that nebulous period where players start developing some knowledge and competency after just joining but not enough to be aware of their own skill so they blame anything and everyone for their loss without ever recognizing their own contributions to their defeat.
Not sure what to make of this. I agree most all chat communication is shit talk but I don't know if we need to outright ban it as well. I'm not really convinced it's as big an issue for toxic behaviour but I haven't heard a lot of discussion on it either way.
I honestly can not think of a game that went on for 20 minutes after becoming unwinnable. If the enemy is giving your team 20 minutes of space because they're passively farming their next big items then there are lots of ways for your team to capitalize on that and make a comeback. Smoke is hugely underrated in pub play. This also ignores the many previously mentioned mechanics that assist with turn arounds. We all have those matches that seemed unwinnable, then the enemy makes one mistake and suddenly their 80 second respawn timer leads to you gaining a barracks or two advantage and ultimately the win.
Finally, if you are so far behind that there is really no hope then it's quite possible if no one tries to actively defend the base the creeps will end it on their own before twenty minutes pass. Yes, it sucks, but as I've said I've never had to wait twenty minutes for an impossible game and I suspect that these claims are exaggerated. There's also the problem that judging the state of the game while actually playing is incredibly difficult and I'd question anyone who says otherwise when there's been examples of pro players making rather big misjudgments of the state of the game. When it's clearly over, I find it really unlikely that it'll last more than ten minutes and if it does then those situations are really far outliers.
Do you think a surrender option that was only available for 5stacks would be acceptable?
I know people have a topic already, but what do people think of mid leshrac? And why is he never picked right now in any position. His early damage output is really good, his mana is not bad so he can survive the laning phase without going to base a lot, with a bloodstone he can farm obscenely fast, and again with bloodstone he has very good midgame dps. And if you don't want to fight and would rather splitpush he can get travels after bloodstone rather than BKB and push stupidly fast, both clearing waves and towers. I just think in the current meta he would be a good fit. However I know he must have weaknesses I haven't considered, such as maybe armour being not great.
What say you better-than-me GAF?
What say you better-than-me GAF?
stop dicking around faceless void~
Schweinehund
Member
That kind of sucks with the runes dealio. I haven't played another f2p game besides PoE that has executed f2p well. Dota 2 pretty much ruined f2p game pay models for me. I'm more willing to reward a game developer if their payment model doesn't affect competitive gameplay in anyway. Doesn't make much sense to pay into a model that affects gameplay because often what you pay for is likely to not have the same value over time. Hearthstone, for example, is more of a gambling setup, and your cards aren't likely to hold the same value within a few weeks/months of receiving them.
The feeling when you beat them though
Are there bans in dota 2 or is low priority the only punishment someone can get?
I have already been in two ranked games on which someone feeds on purpose because something went wrong or because according to them the game was already over.
still remember a mirana that started feeding after 2 minutes because he wanted to play solo top and some support went with him instead...
I have already been in two ranked games on which someone feeds on purpose because something went wrong or because according to them the game was already over.
still remember a mirana that started feeding after 2 minutes because he wanted to play solo top and some support went with him instead...
Nirvana
Member
He's kind of unreliable as a semi carry compared to other mids like TA or QOP and doesn't have the initiating impact of something like a Puck. Sure, he can shit out damage in team fights and has good push, which fits him into the meta, but since ganking and pick offs are a big part of the competitive and pub scene at the moment, without a setup, his stun is unreliable and he doesn't have a gap closer unless you get a blink or force to get close enough to cause major damage. Not having an escape in mid is also generally bad unless you are super tanky, which he isn't.
He used to get picked a lot in trilanes as a support because Shadow Demon was very strong at the time and disrupt allowed for an easy setup for his stun, which made them a potent combo.
As far as pubs go I think most people are just too bad at landing the stun and it puts people off playing him; also he isn't a pubstar hero.
Seems fair enough. I'd like to see him tried in one of those deathball lineups that usually has a pugna farming safe lane, maybe as an alternative to Death Prophet in mid. His ult is similar in that he walks around and it kills shit, he has similar pushing (maybe a little worse) but I think his has more reliable dps as it is toggle rather than a relatively large cooldown that can be baited out. It may not work out but I'd like to see a pro team try it out.
most def
cuevas. PhD.
Member
"I have shit to do!"
I hate it when it's my teammate who unpauses it too. Like just fuck off guy.
Yeah you must have real important shit to do -- that's why you sat down and played dota.
Dreams-Visions
Member
yay, interesting discourse. carry on.
I'd suggest you watch the previously linked video for what to make of it. Also, did someone suggest an "outright ban" on all-chat? Did I miss that somewhere in a follow-up post? Disabled by default means you have to enable it in the options. Like you do to make yourwin/loss history public. It was done in League for the same reason it was disabled by default in Dotes: to slow avenues used to troll games.
I remember one match in particular I think I was playing Viper and my team was pushed into the base @ 20 minutes. They had like Chen, NP...that sort of pushing comp. We had PL, Kunkka, KoTL and some other support that I can't remember. 30 minutes later, we won because they didn't have a comp that could finish us off. But generally speaking, you know when there is hope. And then there are those matches where Huskar has a heart and daedalus at 20 minutes. When there isn't hope and a match is extended only because the other team are behaving like dickheads, it can make people very, very chippy.
This one http://dotabuff.com/matches/437712524, for example, was over quite early. It went an extra 15 minutes because they simply weren't inclined to finish. Multiple fountain diving sessions were the order of the day, and for at least the last 5-10 minutes they were simply sitting around in our base fountain diving, buying more items, then falling back.
Why does it have to be either or? No ideas on how to find a medium between the two? The purpose of the commentary isn't for you to choose which you think is good or bad because you'll only answer based on your biases. Rather, the point is to consider how it can be improved. And you can bet your ass it can be better than it is now. Your better idea could be passed along and implemented. Who knows.
I've been in hour-long games that were over for 20 or 30 minutes. Megas for 10-15 minutes, unable to push out. Just enough people holding on for dear life and just enough aoe dps to stay on the ventilator and dialysis machine. Enemy team taking Rosh just because. Farming multiple rapiers just because. There are of course, matches where the enemy just couldn't finish sooner because they couldn't break the base. But then there are matches that are long over and where not finishing is just belaboring the point.
As for unwinnable matches (> 15k gold/xp deficits) that turned into wins? Realistically, that's about 1% of my wins. Why not let a group of 5 decide if they want to collectively take a shot at that 1%, or save 20 minutes by surrendering and get into another match? Is there a compelling reason to be against giving intelligent people choice beyond "but, that 1% chance"?
I'd suggest you watch the previously linked video for what to make of it. Also, did someone suggest an "outright ban" on all-chat? Did I miss that somewhere in a follow-up post? Disabled by default means you have to enable it in the options. Like you do to make yourwin/loss history public. It was done in League for the same reason it was disabled by default in Dotes: to slow avenues used to troll games.
lol nah man. I'm sure you'll get the extremely ocassional troll who may intentionally feed or rage on one death, but that's no different that Dota. I can confidently say that I've seen it less in League than in Dota. But there are a multitude of factors that contribute to the toxicity of both communities, and Dotes more than League, in my experience. As this has been my experience, it's now my interest in finding ways to lower the toxicity of Dota 2's community to at least match my League experiences. It's not there yet.
Just so that I'm clear: are you attempting to suggest to me that it's *easier* to come back from getting behind in Dota2 than it is in League? Because in my 3 years of experience with both, I can't agree there. While I find neither game particularly easy to come back from deficits in, the fact of the matter is one game costs you time (while the enemy gains gold and xp), while the other game costs you time, costs you gold (while the enemy gets MORE xp and about the same amount of gold). Certainly you could be the lucky recipient of the 900g or whatever it is for killing someone on a 10-kill spree which helps...but hell, if they're on that kind of tear, that gold bump probably isn't enough. lol. Both games can have 15-minute GG's and both can have epic comebacks if given space and opportunity. That's not the spirit of what's being pointed out. Rather, that you can be punished in more ways and thus put farther behind in Dota2 with deaths and denials. To say nothing of not being able to afford wards and invis heroes which contribute to an overall map oppression/claustrophobia. Hell in League, everyone gets free wards now! lol. To me, that combined makes Dota the more challenging game, but in the context of this conversation it can also make people feel more punished and become more frustrated which can lead to acting out.
Well that's partially because there aren't any Nature's Prophets, Tinkers, Phantom Lancers, or Boots of Travel in League, not because there is some inherent rubber banding or ease of getting back into a game in Dota2. Epic comebacks are almost always a function of having a team comp that can facilitate it by split pushing and backdooring or otherwise stalling for time. Or an enemy team comp that unfortunately peaks early but can't break the base against a team with 3 carries.
I remember one match in particular I think I was playing Viper and my team was pushed into the base @ 20 minutes. They had like Chen, NP...that sort of pushing comp. We had PL, Kunkka, KoTL and some other support that I can't remember. 30 minutes later, we won because they didn't have a comp that could finish us off. But generally speaking, you know when there is hope. And then there are those matches where Huskar has a heart and daedalus at 20 minutes. When there isn't hope and a match is extended only because the other team are behaving like dickheads, it can make people very, very chippy.
This one http://dotabuff.com/matches/437712524, for example, was over quite early. It went an extra 15 minutes because they simply weren't inclined to finish. Multiple fountain diving sessions were the order of the day, and for at least the last 5-10 minutes they were simply sitting around in our base fountain diving, buying more items, then falling back.
Why does it have to be either or? No ideas on how to find a medium between the two? The purpose of the commentary isn't for you to choose which you think is good or bad because you'll only answer based on your biases. Rather, the point is to consider how it can be improved. And you can bet your ass it can be better than it is now. Your better idea could be passed along and implemented. Who knows.
play more dotes. I'm about 3,000 matches in and I've seen it all, many times.
I've been in hour-long games that were over for 20 or 30 minutes. Megas for 10-15 minutes, unable to push out. Just enough people holding on for dear life and just enough aoe dps to stay on the ventilator and dialysis machine. Enemy team taking Rosh just because. Farming multiple rapiers just because. There are of course, matches where the enemy just couldn't finish sooner because they couldn't break the base. But then there are matches that are long over and where not finishing is just belaboring the point.
As for unwinnable matches (> 15k gold/xp deficits) that turned into wins? Realistically, that's about 1% of my wins. Why not let a group of 5 decide if they want to collectively take a shot at that 1%, or save 20 minutes by surrendering and get into another match? Is there a compelling reason to be against giving intelligent people choice beyond "but, that 1% chance"?
And why the hell not? It's just a game that ultimately only involves interactions between people for all of an hour. The last thing the community needs is for people to start being hypersensitive to every little damn thing that people say online. If everyone just relaxes a little, the community will be all the more better for it.
Well written and informative.
Quoting it all takes up too much space.
Edit: In order to add something to this conversation.
Region locking: I feel that LoL does this poorly (among many, many other things) in that it divides the player base to the point where friends cannot play with each other because they are from Europe and the Americas. That doesn't really seem right, and most other online games do not have that lock.
Most of the other points about the differences can really be geared towards the surrender option as well. Surrender is great in LoL. In Dota 2 though I don't think it would work nearly as well. As others have said and you have talked about, the differences in difficulty between the two games are enormous. Most LoL games are decided by the 15:00 mark, and anything after that turns into just fluff and farming. There it makes sense to have a surrender option so you can try again sooner.
But in Dota 2 you can be getting stomped at the 45:00 mark, then the enemy team makes one mistake, gets wiped, and your able to gain the advantage back. It is much more of a "see-saw" of power between the two teams. Especially in the late game.
If there was an option for people to give up at the 20:00 mark I don't think we would see epic comebacks or strategic defenses any longer.
The community isn't shitty because of sensitivity. Players want to enjoy a game that requires communication at higher levels to improve the team's performance, and they can't communicate very well if 2/5ths of their team has to be muted because they're on the receiving end of slurs and [empty] death threats.
People that don't want to suffer through that are NOT the problem here.
People that don't want to suffer through that are NOT the problem here.
shira
Member
I thought it was gonna be the new milligan-vick.tumblr.com boobies cosplay show
Nice reaction, but I was thinking more around the lines of:
or "You snooze you lose!"
lmao. He literally carried them throughout that match.
edit: omg I know that Invoker, lmao. He goes onto Travdood's twitch all the time and acts high and mighty and shit, he's a friend of trav's friend(he was the visage that got butthurt at Milk when he went mid FV)
but my friends don't play doto
Play with gaffers/make some online friends. See, to me playing dota is a lot like getting some food.
I can have some mcdonalds (milkman), maybe a panini (procarbine), or maybe some Popeyes (tre). Sometimes I just want an all you can eat buffet (inhouses). Maybe I want that Mexican that will fire back or make me bleed out my ass the next day (1.09). Ofc once a week I'm feelin lazy and I'll order that pizza delivery (euros).
Or you know sometimes I want somethin a lil more spicy or exotic so I'll go for some fancy ass Chinese with the kag bros.
Sometimes I get lonely and decide to take out a white frat girl aka Bzm to an expensive restaurant and she goes fukkn ham on that table like the dudechik from white chicks; my jungle, like my wallet, is guaranteed always gone.
Freakinchair is like that burger you've been thinking about all day. But then you order it and it's soggy, the patty is raw, the cheese isn't melted, and the entire thing is cold. Bleh.
Pubbing is like eating ramen or cereal all day and drinking coke as a water replacement. That's how you die young.
but my friends don't play doto
How can they be your friends then? I don't get it.
Sigismundo
Member
Bokr, are you a food critic?
SteveWinwood
Member
im chewing gum
i haven't tasted u in ages, i need to sample ur wares again
edit: i take it back milkman isn't like mcdonalds, he's like dumpster diving; he's the goddamn shia lebeouf of dota over here stealing my morphling items
Gaben's AMA is up on Reddit, ask your questions now before the topic is flooded:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1vfkfs/i_am_gabe_newell_founder_of_valve_ama/
Edit: I think I have been tricked and it is an impostor gaben.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1vfkfs/i_am_gabe_newell_founder_of_valve_ama/
Edit: I think I have been tricked and it is an impostor gaben.
trasher lemme sample those wares
Looks like the elephant man crossed with Ezio from assassins creed. Who is it?
Duesy, Nemisis, looking at reddit and a game has been just been posted about, I think you have had your MMR's swindled, the Naga player in your game has 14 games total:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471959817
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471959817
HARSH BRO
Sorry dude but you are part of the problem and are definitely part of the toxic community. Not carrying TPs is not such a huge issue and having inventory issues at the shop happens to everyone at some time, ie. shit happens. He wasn't intentionally feeding or trolling. Why the need to rage at him?
Raging at teammates is NEVER constructive and will never accomplish anything positive. Two of you are in the same team. Learn to play nice with each other and you would probably have a higher chance of winning.
EDIT: I just noticed you were SF and bought a fucking Shadowblade when there is already a Weaver in your team. Looks like the Veno is not alone in making idiotic item choices. Did your team rage at you for that?
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