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Dota 2 |OT4| The saga of Vade and ReRixo: the Boat Anchors continues.

I probably can't play medic bear (because the requires more then one item), but I'll definetly post my matches if anybody is willing to give me pointers you know....

There's so much a man can tell you, so much he can say.



Yea, I'm worried about that too, but I'll just focus on myself... starting with last hits and not feeding. Also, I doubt it matters what LD's current meta is in my bracket, but do you think he suffers from being really ineffective or easily counter picked?

I don't know why he's phased out. I think its just in general that everyone gets more gold per minute now and are more well equipped to handle early pushing and the bear isn't as daunting when items are available earlier now. Since the bear isn't as daunting, he ends up getting killed more often when focused, and now since that gives more gold, the other team just snowballs off of it. I think they also nerfed his return casttime this latest patch as a hidden fix.

Without the ability to push early, LD is largely useless because he doesn't have the kill power other popular hard laners do.
 

BeesEight

Member
Wait, why are we hating on SB Prophet? There's still value in that if just in enforcing the "detection tax" on enemy supports. I think you can still split push effectively and safely without needing a blink, you get improved attack speed and bonus if you need to go right click and the enemy team will start yelling at each other when dusts miss.

I am a little confused about the argument for blink on sniper and drow. I don't understand how blink can be used as a counter-initiation. If a fight breaks out, won't the blink go on cooldown before you can use it to get to safety? (Which is more likely in the mid game when five man death squads aren't fully formed and it's likely they're coming to gank the drow? I'm guessing the idea is to grab the blink early.)

I do love blink, however, and Drow certainly seems like a good candidate for grabbing one since her ultimate makes up for skipping a damage item. I just don't understand how it works to shore up the hero's lack of escape.

but they are ;__;

I'm with you Anuxi. Fnatic all the way! (to second place );)

Definitely not wasted on me fwiw. Thanks for the advice!

I too would like to say I appreciate Hylian getting advice. I think there's a bunch of us that learn from Hylian's mistakes so even if he isn't "getting it" I hope people don't stop providing the insight.
 
I think your biggest problem lies in one of the fundamentals of the game, and that's where to look when you're supposedly "tunnel vision"ing on your hero. You actually do tunnel on your hero, which is really, really, really, tremendously bad. Whenever I watch your stream your frame of view around your hero is pretty awful. Since everyone wants to talk about the Shadow Shaman game, here's an example:

http://www.twitch.tv/hylian7/b/518290082?t=13m10s

This is after you've come back from being first blooded. You have the camera focused on yourself, with your hero at the bottom of your field of view as you walk backwards to your tower with no creep wave against a Mirana. You then go and eat the tree farthest from the direct path back and walk back to the tower, get slammed by an arrow, and die. You then declare your hatred for arrows and Mirana. This also results in the death of your Centaur and nearly your BH.

This entire situation could have been avoided had you simply looked at the enemy heroes in the lane that were in your vision. Mirana didn't throw the arrow from the fog, or through trees, she threw it right in front of you and you walked into it. The correct way to play this would have been:

1) Realize you're laning against Mirana, she will try to arrow you because you're retreating alone in front of her creep wave, day 1 Mirana gimmick.
2) Proceed directly back to your tower before the last creep in your wave dies. You're shadow shaman, among the slowest and squishiest heroes in dota, get yourself out and don't present yourself as a target ahead of your centaur. Move command to behind the tower.
3) While you retreat move your camera down and watch what the enemy does.
4) React accordingly

Even in the exact same path you took death could have been avoided if you had kept your hero in the top of your frame rather than the bottom. You would have been able to identify the arrow before it entered the visual traffic of the creep wave and avoided it, hopefully. Think about it: what information do you need from ahead of your hero in this situation? In this case the area behind your tower. The important information was behind your hero, where the enemy heroes are located and trying to kill you.

When controlling your camera always consider where the action is coming from. You don't have to issue a command and watch your hero carry it out in a place where there will be no variables you don't know about or aren't things trying to kill you. Obviously as balance must be struck and you need to be able to catch surprises, you also have to be extra careful when there are invisible or blinking things, as they can interrupt your otherwise safe paths. Another example is, in general, if you're on your way to a teamfight or skirmish you should be looking at that fight on the way there, rather than watching your hero walk there, so you know what's going on in the fight and can plan how best to help. This is probably applicable to most players in this thread as well, so keep this in mind people.

I think you hate Mirana/arrows because of this camera control problem. You don't see them coming and can't react because you aren't looking in the right place. Be more mindful of where you are in the frame to try to maximize your significant vision at all times and arrows will be easier to dodge.

PS: An add on: while I was looking for this clip I saw the first blood as well. You opted to cast a channeling spell out in the open against a Kunkka and Mirana knowing their powerful, slow, skill shot stuns we're off cooldown and available. You ate both of them, died, and said this is why I hate support. That decision making is absolutely abysmal and has nothing to do with playing support. Don't ever present a target that easy to those heroes, of course you're going to die.

PPS: I hope this post isn't wasted on you, camera control is an important and fundamental aspect of Dota and is the most jarring problem I see of yours whenever I watch the stream. It spans all heroes, and improving it will significantly improve your play. Don't ignore this or brush it off as you do many other bits of advice, remind yourself throughout the game, and especially laning, to be aware of where you're looking.

B+ Post - would read perhaps one more time. Good sentence structure and valuable message marred by the judicial use of "PS". This is very unprofessional and you we're graded accordingly.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
This is very unprofessional and you we're graded accordingly.
you we're graded accordingly.
we're graded
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Karakand

Member
So lets say hypothetically that the ESL Compendium is going to launch with every single cosmetic item finished and ready to ship, how embarrassing do you think that would be for the DreamLeague?

Utterly embarrassing.

I don't think I'm going to buy a DreamLeague ticket again after this one even though the swag we're going to get 8 months from now should be pretty sweet. (Hoping that Venge x Skywrath HUD sample loses the recycled default HUD bit.)
 

Ketch

Member
Its just the damn reflexes, I don't have the precision to do perfect camera control by minimap and the rapid edge swipes to move the camera in the main screen, well, I'm not fast enough to control them as precisely as I need as quickly as I need in a tense situation.

You know what I would like? A keybinding that, when that key is depressed and the mouse is clicked, centers the camera on that point.

What I've done is increased the camera pan speed sensitivity option (or whatever it's called) just a little bit every week, and now it's almost maxed and I've never noticed the change. Also you could try panning the camera with keys instead of the mouse.... ask Haz, I think he does that crazy shit.

Also, I feel like the only time I use the minimap to position my camera is to get a quick "snap shot" of what's happening there... like I'm looking at the minimap, see an enemy hero near a teammate, click there to see what's up, and then immediately double tap 1 to go back to my hero.

The problem I have is issueing move commands to my hero while looking somewhere else, I've gotten better at this by using the minimap to micro treants while playing prophet.

People have said this is spacebar before but it never works for me.

I think spacebar takes you to mid, or to wherever someone just pinged if you do it fast enough (I don't think I've ever seen this work though).

I don't know why he's phased out. I think its just in general that everyone gets more gold per minute now and are more well equipped to handle early pushing and the bear isn't as daunting when items are available earlier now. Since the bear isn't as daunting, he ends up getting killed more often when focused, and now since that gives more gold, the other team just snowballs off of it. I think they also nerfed his return casttime this latest patch as a hidden fix.

Without the ability to push early, LD is largely useless because he doesn't have the kill power other popular hard laners do.

Awesome, thanks for explaining. The only reason I like LD is because it's an easy way to practice micro... it's just a-moves all day. It's kind of like NP except you don't even have to worry about sprout or ulti'ing.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Pro, how bad is my camera work? Did you watch any of the games I was streaming yesterday?

Are move commands any different then just right clicks?

If you use the move command, you will walk to a spot and not attack anything. Like, if you are smoked, you can walk right on top of a neutral and not break smoke by right clicking a neutral.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The problem I have is issueing move commands to my hero while looking somewhere else, I've gotten better at this by using the minimap to micro treants while playing prophet.

yeah I'm getting better at this. I really need to learn how to do control groups though.
 

Hylian7

Member
Pro, how bad is my camera work? Did you watch any of the games I was streaming yesterday?



If you use the move command, you will walk to a spot and not attack anything. Like, if you are smoked, you can walk right on top of a neutral and not break smoke by right clicking a neutral.

You can make illusions tank Rosh by hitting the move command and putting them on Rosh. Really useful.
 

SamVimes

Member
What's the reason behind this?

Edit: using it for Jugg spin, I mean.

Because if you're attacking a target he won't be affected by the spin, early game your autoattack is poop and the spin damage is pretty good.

Also i wish this stream wasn't laggy as shit for me.
 
The thinking for blink on Drow and Sniper is similar to Blinkz.

funny you mention that, because according to envy, it's the opposite

i could be wrong about this, but every time c9 runs drow, they have earthshaker 1) blocking the creepwave mid and 2) sitting her so he can fissure anyone trying to go on her, then she can gust and blink out. the earthshaker stun lasts 1/1.25/1.5/1.75 seconds, as well as blocks most of the time, and gust also pushes people away. in other words, they don't use the blink just for offense on her

there's also the fact that copying everything you see on professional games is questionable by itself, like mid naga. and hylian is right about blink being useless against certain heroes (pudge, clockwork etc)

i'm not gonna get in theory wars about it, but i think force staff is a lot better on drow (and probably sniper as well), if you aren't split pushing and just blinking to hide into trees. you don't need to position yourself in a very specific spot like axe or sand king when going offensive and it can be used to run away reliably. on wk, i prefer euls

tl;dr blink is good but overrated. it's like force staff when speed gaming used to get 3 or 4, and then people wanted to buy the 3rd or 4th force staff by 40 minutes
 

aeolist

Banned
it seems like envy's weird item builds only tend to work out if they get ahead early and it doesn't matter as much

i don't remember ever seeing them make a comeback when he was going for shit like that
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Because if you're attacking a target he won't be affected by the spin, early game your autoattack is poop and the spin damage is pretty good.

Also i wish this stream wasn't laggy as shit for me.

You're drunk it's the other way around. If the target isn't damaged by the spin then your auto-attacks will do damage. I think it's relevant only against towers though, cause iirc bkb target still won't take damage from autos during spin.
 
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