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[SteveWinwood]

Personally I prefer single elimination tournaments to all this winners/losers bracket shit.

We need a winners and losers bracket because the seeding is random. If the second best team goes up against the first best team right away well too bad you're just as bad as the shittiest team vs anyone.

What we need for a finals is a normal best of three but if the losers bracket team wins than there is a second best of three. It's a true double elimination that way. The winners get an advantage and don't get screwed that way. But tourneys want a hype best of five and doing two of those is too much so they have this shitty go between with the advantage. It's not that great but understandable.

 

[Omotesando]

Yeah, you're stacking the deck way too much in favor of the winner. You need parity for the last match.



They don't. By virtue of winning the winner's bracket they are guaranteed 2nd place money without having to play extra matches and face elimination. That's a huge advantage already.

Yea I am aware of that, you just parroted what I said.

It's because of the reason the winner have to beat the loser twice and the loser has to beat the winner only once, they require an additional reward. Parity in that case would be unfair.

Especially in the case where two teams are much stronger than the rest of the field. And in this season of starladder that could be the case. How is it fair that between them one has to win 5 times and the other has only to win 3 times and beat some schmuck (srry IG + Team empire) to win it all?

 

[Green Biker Dude]

the winner team having a 1 game advantage in the final is dumb. they already get to rest and not have to worry about being in the losers bracket, plus they play less games which allows them to have more hidden strategies

2 bo3 could take forever

 

[SteveWinwood]

2 bo3 could take forever

At most it's only one game more than the potential max of a bo5.

 

[Omotesando]

the winner team having a 1 game advantage in the final is dumb. they already get to rest and not have to worry about being in the losers bracket, plus they play less games which allows them to have more hidden strategies

2 bo3 could take forever

You should see some starcraft broodwar tournaments man. What is the big deal, you play a BoA 3 at noon. In the case of Sing sing he would then go lay down and have a wank. Befor supper you play another BoA 3. Then if you win, you have dinner and have a shower and play a Boa5 in the evening.

I am sure those guys can handle that. They are very young, and Arteezy definitely goes to the gym aswell.

 

[Shorty11857]

Single elimination makes sense in bigger tournaments, like the International, where 16 teams compete. The loser brackt system is in its core a much more fair system, but in a tournament like the international that would be impossible, because money and such as it would need a full two weeks to complete the tournament. This is dota not the friggin world cup.... A group stage + single elimination is the most obvious solution.

Starladder has only 8 teams and the loser bracket system can be completed in a long weekend and in this case they naturally opted for this system.

The International has both a group stage and a loser bracket

 

[Green Biker Dude]

yeah but they'd take breaks between the sets, so that's another 30-40 min -- roughly another game

 

[Green Biker Dude]

also i don't know if this is racist but i can barely tell lanm and iceiceice apart

 

[Quesa]

Lots of great tips so far

 

[Omotesando]

The International has both a group stage and a loser bracket

yea, there was a lot of discussion whether the international would have a loser bracket or not. TI1 didnt, was it?

yea it's because of the amount of money involved they opted for lowerupper brcket. Because its much more fair. And they had lower bracket games played in a backroom. My mistake, it was obviously another tournament.

 

[Razzer]

also i don't know if this is racist but i can barely tell lanm and iceiceice apart

Wat. I too have trouble with some Chinese/Asian players but those two are ones I'd never confuse. I suppose they are both fairly thin but Lanm looks way more angry face.

 

[Omotesando]

Yea I always have trouble with those guys from Sigma. Seriously.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

We need a winners and losers bracket because the seeding is random. If the second best team goes up against the first best team right away well too bad you're just as bad as the shittiest team vs anyone.

What we need for a finals is a normal best of three but if the losers bracket team wins than there is a second best of three. It's a true double elimination that way. The winners get an advantage and don't get screwed that way. But tourneys want a hype best of five and doing two of those is too much so they have this shitty go between with the advantage. It's not that great but understandable.

You could have it seeded. We'd have an independent ranking system, people still have to qualify. Once they do, they're seeded like it is in tennis/football.

 

[Mohasus]

You guys are talking like there is a chance that DK doesn't win this championship.

 

[Haly]

Lots of great tips so far

I have invaded this document like a Darkwraith from DkS.

 

[Kard8p3]

Man DK is so good, it's a team of superstars.

 

[Gully State]

Yea I am aware of that, you just parroted what I said.

It's because of the reason the winner have to beat the loser twice and the loser has to beat the winner only once, they require an additional reward. Parity in that case would be unfair.

Winner of grand finals is guaranteed 2nd place money and a seat in grand finals. Loser of the winner's bracket has to play the loser's bracket team for a seat in the grand finals- By any other sport, that's already a huge advantage. If you're dead set in giving the winning team an advantage, a better one would be something akin to homecourt advantage (winner's bracket team gets to decide whether they want first pick or not/ choice of dire radiant for x amount of games).

I feel like more than anything competitive DOTA needs a more unified regular season as opposed to a bunch of tournaments.

 

[shira]

Zai discusses DK losses
http://nadota.com/showthread.php?25904-GG

The International has both a group stage and a loser bracket

Maybe they might pull an MLG with a an extra side stage for VIP-only or something.

By any other sport, that's already a huge advantage.

I think it is basically rewarding the early victories. IE DK has secured 2nd place by winning all those games.

DK = 7 wins
EG has 5 wins. They would need 7 wins to get to the grand finals

 

[Haly]

By any other sport, that's already a huge advantage.

Doing well in a tournament is not an "advantage", it's literally what the tournament is there for. Allowing everyone else to play Double Elimination but tacitly forcing the winners into Single Elimination is actually a disadvantage. Their reward, ignoring prize money for a second, for not making any mistakes into the GF is not being able to make anymore mistakes.

Tournament winnings should be a secondary consideration. What's most important is fairness of competition. If teams were just playing for bragging rights, would you still advocate not giving the winning teams a game/set?

 

[SteveWinwood]

Lots of great tips so far

I'm having too much fun with this. Just make it open to all heroes and make it a gaf general hero specific tips.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

streaming if you care to watch

 

[Omotesando]

Winner of grand finals is guaranteed 2nd place money and a seat in grand finals. Loser of the winner's bracket has to play the loser's bracket team for a seat in the grand finals- By any other sport, that's already a huge advantage. If you're dead set in giving the winning team an advantage, a better one would be something akin to homecourt advantage (winner's bracket team gets to decide whether they want first pick or not/ choice of dire radiant for x amount of games).

I feel like more than anything competitive DOTA needs a more unified regular season as opposed to a bunch of tournaments.

I know I know I know.
Agree to disagree I guess.

But I think only the players themselves (the losers and the winners) could really answer most of these advantages and repurcussions. I know most of them think the Starladder 1 point advantage is to be the best solution. I know Fear and Hanni did say so in interviews when directly asked. And im sure Arteezy agrees aswell, who can disagree with Arteezy man?

 

[Razzer]

I'm having too much fun with this. Just make it open to all heroes and make it a gaf general hero specific tips.

I'm just trolling, can't handle giving good advice.

 

[SteveWinwood]

haly are you rhino

 

[Haly]

i dont know who i am

 

[Voshond]

Pretty cool!

Lmao my AP win rate is 45% fucking op hero of the month/counter pickers.

Edit: it also only seemed to download 500 games, and im guessing practice mode matches arent included?

Hey, thanks for that Play store review.


I've spent the past couple of days fixing bugs and adding extra features to the app. The statistics screen now shows an overview of all games that fit the search criteria, so you can quickly get a list of all games you've played with a certain hero and/or gamemode.
I also added smaller things like Lone Druid's bear items and marking players that abandoned a game. The latest thing I've implemented is a games played/winrate screen.

Check it out at the Play store: Dota Data

 

[Satch]

im enjoying watching the live fill-ins of this google document

 

[GordonHalfman]

The one game advantage seems a bit neither one thing or the other to me. It's not good enough for people who want it to be strictly fair the way a bracket reset would be, but it's not as satisfying for the spectators as a straight bo5 would be either.

 

[Quesa]

I'm having too much fun with this. Just make it open to all heroes and make it a gaf general hero specific tips.

You know what these smurf games are actually no fun and I feel bad for destroying ppl so I'm going to do that to save my eternal soul

 

[LiQuid!]

Just today I realized how much mana a Manta costs to use. Jeez.

 

[Servbot #42]

Man my last 4 matches as ember have been a win, what a great hero. I'm not even that good with him just decent i guess but i can really rekt people up in my shitty mmr bracket.

 

[SteveWinwood]

There are going to be so much bitching about what's a good tip or not.

 

[Quesa]

There are going to be so much bitching about what's a good tip or not.

Ah well. Doc is open to all heroes so add tips or jokes or whatever idc

 

[PillowKnight]

Ah well. Doc is open to all heroes so add tips or jokes or whatever idc

This is way more fun than it should be.

 

[Jokab]

Playing RMM CD/CM with people who want to play well is the best thing. Me (SK) and Rubick roamed the map and destroyed everyone while Clock, DK and AM farmed up and then we rolled them. So much fun, even with solo queue.

 

[Kard8p3]

Ah well. Doc is open to all heroes so add tips or jokes or whatever idc

not at home atm but someone make sure to mention how OoV is core on Puck pls

 

[Holden]

wow that google doc is making laugh way too much

 

[Satch]

smh

 

[Kard8p3]

smh

fuck tinker

 

[Einbroch]

contributed

 

[SteveWinwood]

you know youve hung out in this thread too long when you can recognize which posters added what

 

[Hung_real]

This Doc is fun

 

[Randdalf]

lol @ the people who didn't get the Riki guide

 

[Granadier]

Hey, thanks for that Play store review.


I've spent the past couple of days fixing bugs and adding extra features to the app. The statistics screen now shows an overview of all games that fit the search criteria, so you can quickly get a list of all games you've played with a certain hero and/or gamemode.
I also added smaller things like Lone Druid's bear items and marking players that abandoned a game. The latest thing I've implemented is a games played/winrate screen.

Check it out at the Play store: Dota Data

Love the app. I think you did a great job with it. The new icon is beautiful and matches my Lumos icon set perfectly.

I'm not sure if this would be the best place to let you know about bugs, but I've come across a couple while using it. If you want them sent via email or something let me know.

• If the app can't access the match, it crashes.
• My history shows a match from 2012 as most recent.

 

[manfestival]

I got into warframe recently so far less dota 2 for me than usual (which is kinda nice cause my day doesnt disappear after 4 matches). Just played a game as sven and, its so satisfying to crit a team early on in a big teamfight later on and they almost all die from the one hit. Did win that game after a couple of almost throws.

 

[Satch]

that drawing that got posted on the doc is really cute

 

[sixghost]

why you gotta make fun of me I just like talking about meepo

 

[Lotto]

i'm learning a lot from this doc, I think

 

[Servbot #42]

Fuck my ember spirit win streak has been broken The game went super late and even tough we got their mid barracks we got wiped after. I was up vs a doom and instead of getting a linkens i went for another daedalus which costed me greatly since i couldn't farm the linkens fast enough, my GPM was shit. Anyway right at the end i managed to buy my linkens but our courier got killed and i got doomed and lost. Seriously i think this was my biggest flaw not farming fast enough! I should fix that somehow.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/618307805

 

[Demoli]

Ez games