Late game he loses his prowess at farming heroes though once they can tank his burst.
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Dota 2 |OT4| The saga of Vade and ReRixo: the Boat Anchors continues.
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
Late game he loses his prowess at farming heroes though once they can tank his burst.
JawesomeJaw
Member
Luna and Pudge fighting over mid, an Axe that abandoned after 3 deaths and a Shadow Shaman that would DC every 2 minutes.
Classic morning Dota.
Classic morning Dota.
I don't think it is the battle fury winning him games against pubs though. It's the invis and natural pub mentality of "I won't buy detection because that is someone else's job."
If you get a kill with detection, it already made you a profit.
So? He has a team to help him do that. He throws tracks on people and has a Desolator or something.
Sure.
But I was thinking more along the lines of a late game that needs lanes pushed. BH can stealth into the lanes with a BF and clear them quick without the risk of being caught. Especially in pubs that refuse to buy detection.
But I see your point, and my view is coming from the trench.
shira
Member
This is going to be trollol isn't it.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Someone hyping up there own show?
I actually think there will be some substance.
I actually think there will be some substance.
Bro, this is why you get a Dagon 5. Let me write the guide, Volvo!
Gully State
Member
Late game he'll have -armor and high damage items. BH one shots creeps at that point. Plus -armor with deso helps not only with damaging heroes but also pushing towers fast.
That's true for every item choice.
But it's not a superfluous item, if someone is gonna build it they're gonna build it as their first item.
Again, it's a first item after boots. Unlike desolator which you usually buy after a couple of items so its winrate is actually inflated.
Also bfury is basically a lazy way of having almost infinite sustain from the perseverance and a shitton of damage for your jinada crit with the addition of being able to clear a wave extremely quickly. Are there other better item choices? Sure. It's just not as awful as everyone seem to think it is, it reminds me of the circlejerk against vanguard, sny and vlad's.
But you just said yourself that it is lazy because almost everything else is better. I can have a Bfury, or I could have Phase/Drum/Aquila/Deso/BKB/Bottle/Medallion. All of those are better than a Bfury.
People crap on Vanguard because it generally is pretty bad unless you farm it crazy fast. I only really see it useful otherwise on AM, and only if you get too delayed to go BF.
Wok
Member
Dotabuff sometimes presents some interesting stats. If I look at the matches which I have played this month in "All Pick" mode, there are a few outliers.
I mostly play the same four heroes. No surprise so far.
I cannot counter Kunkka at all. Kunkka is the strangest result I get. Clearly, there is something different. I guess he is one of the strongest hero in public matches at my MMR (2.5K)
If you pick Drow Ranger, it is most likely we won't perform well together.
I mostly play the same four heroes. No surprise so far.
I cannot counter Kunkka at all. Kunkka is the strangest result I get. Clearly, there is something different. I guess he is one of the strongest hero in public matches at my MMR (2.5K)
If you pick Drow Ranger, it is most likely we won't perform well together.
Yeah bfury is pretty garbage on BH, it's like rushing Deso on ember.
Took pro's 2 months to see the light and start consistently building x2 bfury + crit.
I think some people were arguing for it because of the flash farm power it gives and because it allows you to quickly push a lane. Also regen isn't half bad.
But yeah I usually build deso on him and other damage items. If you're going to be active in teamfights its preferable, so unless you're going for a no track bh build, its meh.
Gully State
Member
In the time that BH spent farming for BF, he could've had phase/drums/medallion or any other small item and start to help your team create space by scoring ganks/acquiring track gold. The quicker and more useful item progression for those items would've allowed him to start ganking right as he hit 6. Also, not farming for BF allows BH to take solo hard lane, while giving safe lane to a hero that could use the farm much better.
SteveWinwood
Member
It doesn't give your illusions armor or damage, they can't lifesteal, they have no use for the mana regen. The damage it gives your hero is percent based so not the greatest thing early.
So what are the upsides? You get lifesteal on your one real pl?
which means your illusions will be stronger, jungling with weak regen weakens your pushing and farming power since all your illusion's hp is based on the original's current hp at the time of creation.
SteveWinwood
Member
If that's what you want go vanguard on him.
I haven't seen that in forever on PL though.
So? I don't see how that's relevant at all, again there are better items it's just not that awful.
Soon FADE is gonna be talking with a strawman.
Who's FADE?
Who's SamVines?
It's almost entirely for pushing out your lane quickly (since the auras do apply to your creep wave) so you can safely rotate to jungle and farm unhindered. It's also useful for split pushing. In a way, it's an investment item like radiance, but I like it a lot more for PL.
Make a Steam guide, get it voted to 85+, and I guarantee it will become standard in pub trash games.
You mean I too can help create the next vanguard Razor?!
Cyborgmatt
Member
So here is the interview I did with Chuan, I honestly wanted to stop mid interview when he was getting pretty upset but he insisted we carry on.
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
Wok
Member
So here is the interview I did with Chuan, I honestly wanted to stop mid interview when he was getting pretty upset but he insisted we carry on.
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
I don't know about the news, but he looks as if he was about to cry. So sad.
Edit: Everyone cries, even the translator.
Come on, it is end of April, the best teams do not want to show their best strategies so close to the TI4. I am sure they have some nice tricks which will be only visible at the International.
Gully State
Member
How is it not awful? It's an item that usually takes the first 16-18 minutes of the game to farm (and in trench tier, 20+ minute BF's aren't out of the equation). That time period is roughly the same period of time where BH is at his prime in terms of killing potential and creating a level/gold gap between the two teams.
That's not to say that there isn't a time to build BF because I do believe every item has a situational use (if say you're the only hero on the team with any late game potential and given free reign of safe lane farm) and it's up to the player to recognize it but almost all of the time, BF just isn't the answer on BH.
So here is the interview I did with Chuan, I honestly wanted to stop mid interview when he was getting pretty upset but he insisted we carry on.
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
electroshockwave
Member
I know it's not as bad but as BF bounty but I hate that some players think a battlefury is core on PA, especially when they go brown boots -> battlefury. They could have phase, vlads and an ogre club for less. Then team-mates have given me shit for not picking it up when I know it would be a bad idea in those matches.
Someone give Chuan a hug.
So here is the interview I did with Chuan, I honestly wanted to stop mid interview when he was getting pretty upset but he insisted we carry on.
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
Someone give Chuan a hug.
manfestival
Member
is it wrong for me to desire to go battle ogre? straight up attack damage auto attacking machine?
I think you should get Phase before BF for sure. Vlad's I'm not sure about. Why get it when you can get HotD and stack the ancients?
well gaf, here we go: give me pointers on my pudge
http://dotabuff.com/matches/625519603
keep in mind that it's a smurf so yeah that dk...
mid vs invo went poorly so i felt like I had to roam, and am I right in thinking that pudge falls off late game almost as bad as axe (cept for hook which is always great initiation)? Doesn't excuse my many deaths, but I wanted to know what I coulda done to single-handedly win this, which I think was possible all things considered.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/625519603
keep in mind that it's a smurf so yeah that dk...
mid vs invo went poorly so i felt like I had to roam, and am I right in thinking that pudge falls off late game almost as bad as axe (cept for hook which is always great initiation)? Doesn't excuse my many deaths, but I wanted to know what I coulda done to single-handedly win this, which I think was possible all things considered.
While you the extra hp and regen is good, your illusions don't benefit from damage block and lifesteal scales with your damage, so you'll faster as time goes on.
Not to mention PL's agi gain so with the base armor he gets late game, damage block isn't that useful.
Illusions benefit from the +15% damage since it also increases your base damage and the mana regen helps spamming lance which is a great nuke.
Vlad's is also 175 gold cheaper. As much as I like Vanguard, Vlad's is better on PL.
So here is the interview I did with Chuan, I honestly wanted to stop mid interview when he was getting pretty upset but he insisted we carry on.
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
Daaayuuum, that is a lot of negativity towards the team. Hope he finds the direction he's looking for.
electroshockwave
Member
Well stacking ancients would only be worth it with a battlefury and I think there are more effective damage items to get and I feel it's better to fight early on PA than spend 4350 on a farming item. I've been pretty successful with Vlads and it's good for the whole team for just 200 more than HotD.
Also, I've found that even on heroes like Gyro and Luna that have the built-in ability to farm ancient stacks it doesn't go as well as I'd like. If the enemy doesn't take them then an asshole teammate will or fights seem to break out right at the point I should be stacking so I don't get those 800+ GPM games.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Neither Pudge nor Axe fall off late game unless your items are falling off late-game. That's true of any hero in Dota2. No items = no late-game relevance.
That is to say, 41cs for your solo mid in 43 minutes doesn't work. I notice this a lot. People getting what I call "Riki syndrome". It's when people hit a specific level (like 6) and forget that you still have to fucking farm. You look up and the game is 20 minutes old and you've made almost zero item progression because yous spent your last 12 minutes of game time walking from lane to lane or jungle to jungle hunting for pickoffs, averaging no more than maybe 2.5cs/minute. If you're not getting perpetual pickoffs, you fall farther and farther behind. Then you look up and you're almost too far behind to recover in any realistic amount of time.
As an example, this Nightstalker in my game last night:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/624590980
...did the same thing. He hit first night, left the mid lane for a solid 4 minutes and apparently simply tried to roam and farm heroes for the duration of the match. I end up 6 levels ahead of him and almost double his CS by the end of the game while playing a hero that's relatively difficult to last-hit with.
Best advice is to watch some good Pudges. See what they're doing and when and try to figure out why. I thought this guy was pretty good in one of my recent matches:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/608068322
Might be worth watching the replay if it's still available. If nothing else, take specific note of his CS, skill build and items. Both are important to the point.
You're assuming a lot of stuff.
My point is that it's not awful in pubs first of all, i'm not saying it's a good choice in competitive games.
You don't necessarily have to sit in lane to farm it, way back when i used to do it (at probably around 3k mmr, maybe a bit lower), before Bounty hit the meta with the assist gold changes i just went safelane, farmed until i got phase boots + perseverance, then went around ganking until i got it, sub 20 mins. At that point you don't have to coordinate ganks anymore, you can just solo kill supports. When you get your deso which shouldn't be that far you're gonna almost one shot supports and deal serious damage to everyone else.
The reason i'm saying it's only good in pubs is because if you can't get solo kills with it i don't think it's worth it at all.
Glad you posted this after Kelly M. brought up the topic on reddit.So here is the interview I did with Chuan, I honestly wanted to stop mid interview when he was getting pretty upset but he insisted we carry on.
http://www.ongamers.com/videos/chuan-discusses-his-future-at-invictus-gaming/2300-502/
Ballad SNIP SNIP
Wok
Member
This might be a good Pudge player:
http://dotabuff.com/players/9137984...type=&game_mode=all_pick®ion=&duration=20-
with this recent match:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/622371673
I love that the Pudges name is Eternal_Gank given what you just said. Also, Pudge actually scales pretty well if he's involved in lot's of kills thanks to flesh heap. You aren't going to be doing tons of right-click damage but you'll be hella tanky with lots of stacks.
SteveWinwood
Member
Milk is advocating early vlads for pushing power on the creeps. +15% early is trash by itself (congrats you do an extra 10 damage) not to mention the illusions only do 25% of the total anyway. I'm not saying vanguard is a good choice either, just that you were advocating vlads as a sustain item, which early game vanguard will do better at.
Buy it after your cores if you want it. Or just leave it to a support so you can farm real carry items and still get the auras.