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DOTA 2 |OT8| DOTA Asian Championship (1/27-2/9)

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H

Hylian7

Member
Random dumb train of thought:

Butterfly is almost always a bad item to buy.

Think about it, every time, one of the following happens:

1. Someone already has an MKB for some other reason.
2. Someone sees you are building Butterfly and already is building MKB.
3. You build the Butterfly, nobody notices, then someone farms their MKB and now one of your slots is useless.
 
K

Kalnos

Banned
You still have to buy the MKB which is outside normal builds on a lot of heroes. Not really a great item to pick up and then allow the enemy to farm an MKB though.
 
W

Wonderboy91

Member
Hylian7 said:
Random dumb train of thought:

Butterfly is almost always a bad item to buy.

Think about it, every time, one of the following happens:

1. Someone already has an MKB for some other reason.
2. Someone sees you are building Butterfly and already is building MKB.
3. You build the Butterfly, nobody notices, then someone farms their MKB and now one of your slots is useless.
Click to expand...

I feel like 60 damage, 30 attack speed, a mobility skill, and 35% evasion against everyone who doesn't have a mkb isn't useless. Also how many heros actually get mkb over some other damage item if there isn't evasion to be dealt with?

*Butterfly actually gives 60 attack speed when you could agi along with roughly 4 armor too. - Edit
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Wonderboy91 said:
I feel like 60 damage, 30 attack speed, a mobility skill, and 35% evasion against everyone who doesn't have a mkb isn't useless. Also how many heros actually get mkb over some other damage item if there isn't evasion to be dealt with?
Click to expand...

But there are better items than Butterfly though if you can't have the evasion.
 
M

Monochromaticx

Member
SneakyStephan said:
What do you pick against PA?

carry: troll with mkb I guess? or pl?
support : ?
core: ?
Click to expand...

Support: Lina, cm, lion, dazzle, OMNI! Oracle, shadow demon, lich (dat ice armor), bane is really good even when she gets bkb.

However, if your team loses all their lanes and keep losing 5v4 while pa is farming then these heroes cant do jack to her or any othet carry in her place.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
CHRIST PEOPLE ARE FUCKING STUPID AND I AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF GETTING THESE SHITTERS ON MY TEAMS!

Today's idiot: This Ursa

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1136899205

PA is pushing our top T3, he buys back, tries to kill her, dies. We tell him he needs MKB, he says "Abyssal is more important", we tell him how he is wrong and he needs to actually be able to hit her. He says "It's going to take me like 10 minutes to farm MKB" we say "That's fine, do it." He finally finishes the MKB at like 40-45 minutes, waaaaaay too late to be contending with a PA. Of course we lose horribly, all because this fucking retard wouldn't buy an MKB earlier and thought his almighty abyssal was more important, even diebacking for it.

At the end of the game, we are all full on pissed at him about this. He argues and says "You don't realize that she can't dodge if she's stunned by Abyssal...."

At this point I was ready to throw my monitor across the room.

I LOST FUCKING MMR AT 3.8K BECAUSE THIS DUMB FUCK WAS ON MY TEAM. WHAT A FUCKING JOKE.

Edit: Check out that item progression boys. Notice how he has not a single new item since BKB before the MKB, because he diebacked, and then was going to go for the Abyssal but then we convinced him out of it. Then he says he shouldn't have listened to us...lol.

KuFOBwf.png
 
P

Procarbine

Forever Platinum
Hylian7 said:
CHRIST PEOPLE ARE FUCKING STUPID AND I AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF GETTING THESE SHITTERS ON MY TEAMS!

Today's idiot:
Click to expand...

Hylian7 said:
Random dumb train of thought:

Butterfly is almost always a bad item to buy.

Think about it, every time, one of the following happens:

1. Someone already has an MKB for some other reason.
2. Someone sees you are building Butterfly and already is building MKB.
3. You build the Butterfly, nobody notices, then someone farms their MKB and now one of your slots is useless.
Click to expand...

349.gif
 
W

Wonderboy91

Member
Hylian7 said:
But there are better items than Butterfly though if you can't have the evasion.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I think for the heros that buy butterfly intuitively ( illusion heros and heros that value attack speed highly) its one of the more cost effective items. It still provides a lot of damage and attack speed for its cost.

Butterfly gives:
30 Damage from Agi (assuming that you're play an agi hero)
30 flat damage
roughly 4 armor from Agi
30 attack speed from Agi
30 flat attack speed
35% evasion
A 20% movement boots for 8 seconds on a 35 second cooldown

The evasion isn't even useless due to the presence of 1 or more mkbs. Its not like the whole team gains truestrike because their carry buys an mkb. Its also worth mentioning secondary sources of damage (towers, creeps, rosh) are all still effected by butterfly.

It just dosen't strike me as reasonable to write off everything butterfly provides because there's an items that counters a portion of what it can do.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Procarbine said:
349.gif
Click to expand...
Oh no, I said something controversial about butterfly, better post a gif saying Hylian is retarded
Wonderboy91 said:
I don't know. I think for the heros that buy butterfly intuitively ( illusion heros and heros that value attack speed highly) its one of the more cost effective items. It still provides a lot of damage and attack speed for its cost.

Butterfly gives:
30 Damage from Agi (assuming that you're play an agi hero)
30 flat damage
roughly 4 armor from Agi
30 attack speed from Agi
30 flat attack speed
35% evasion
A 20% movement boots for 8 seconds on a 35 second cooldown

The evasion isn't even useless due to the presence of 1 or more mkbs. Its not like the whole team gains truestrike because their carry buys an mkb. Its also worth mentioning secondary sources of damage (towers, creeps, rosh) are all still effected by butterfly.

It just dosen't strike me as reasonable to write off everything butterfly provides because there's an items that counters a portion of what it can do.
Click to expand...
However typically the reason you buy butterfly is so the other team's carry can't hit you. If they can now, then you aren't getting much value from it. You could be better off buying armor instead.

Part of the reason you see PA in pubs so much right now is because her built in evasion is there all game, and to contend with it, MKB has to be your first or second item.
 
Y

yarden24

Member
Hylian7 said:
So rather than actually contribute anything to the discussion you would rather just go "ur dumb" and call it a day.
Click to expand...

Butterfly is a timing item, if you get it in the right timing to win a crucial team fight and then snowball your lead, it is fantastic, one or two team fights with 35% extra ehp is huge!

And the damage buff it gives is not at all negligible either, not to mention forcing the other team into getting a subpar damage item in a Mkb
 
W

Wonderboy91

Member
Hylian7 said:
Oh no, I said something controversial about butterfly, better post a gif saying Hylian is retarded

However typically the reason you buy butterfly is so the other team's carry can't hit you. If they can now, then you aren't getting much value from it. You could be better off buying armor instead.

Part of the reason you see PA in pubs so much right now is because her built in evasion is there all game, and to contend with it, MKB has to be your first or second item.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Looking at the stats the item provides I would have to consider the evasion merely a bonus.

The sort of hero's that typically buy butterfly have the ability to create illusions either through manta style, a built in ability, or both. Since half of butterfly's damage comes from agility rather than flat damage it contributes to the strength of illusions whereas flat damage items like basher or deadalus would not.

These heros also tend to be agility heros, and therefore have naturally high armor due to their stat gain. Agility heros also benefit from 60 damage rather than the 30 that strength heros would. The combination of 60 damage and 60 attack speed creates an item that probably is more cost to DPS efficient than other items of similar price.

I feel in general that people think of butterfly as a defensive item too much, and forget about its offensive benefits.
 
Wok

Wok

Member
Wonderboy91 said:
I disagree. Looking at the stats the item provides I would have to consider the evasion merely a bonus.

The sort of hero's that typically buy butterfly have the ability to create illusions either through manta style, a built in ability, or both. Since half of butterfly's damage comes from agility rather than flat damage it contributes to the strength of illusions whereas flat damage items like basher or deadalus would not.

These heros also tend to be agility heros, and therefore have naturally high armor due to their stat gain. Agility heros also benefit from 60 damage rather than the 30 that strength heros would. The combination of 60 damage and 60 attack speed creates an item that probably is more cost to DPS efficient than other items of similar price.

I feel in general that people think of butterfly as a defensive item too much, and forget about its offensive benefits.
Click to expand...

I still wish I would have time to build a 5th butterfly instead of Manta. But the Megas destroyed their Ancients.



Yeah, I know Ethereal Blade would have been better for pure agility gain.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Wonderboy91 said:
I disagree. Looking at the stats the item provides I would have to consider the evasion merely a bonus.

The sort of hero's that typically buy butterfly have the ability to create illusions either through manta style, a built in ability, or both. Since half of butterfly's damage comes from agility rather than flat damage it contributes to the strength of illusions whereas flat damage items like basher or deadalus would not.

These heros also tend to be agility heros, and therefore have naturally high armor due to their stat gain. Agility heros also benefit from 60 damage rather than the 30 that strength heros would. The combination of 60 damage and 60 attack speed creates an item that probably is more cost to DPS efficient than other items of similar price.

I feel in general that people think of butterfly as a defensive item too much, and forget about its offensive benefits.
Click to expand...
Makes sense. I do think that because of MKB discouraging butterfly purchases, icefrog added the speed buff like someone mentioned, as well as the diminishingly stacking evasion (evasion used to not stack at all, so Butterfly PA used to be considered super trench).
 
W

Wonderboy91

Member
Hylian7 said:
Makes sense. I do think that because of MKB discouraging butterfly purchases, icefrog added the speed buff like someone mentioned, as well as the diminishingly stacking evasion (evasion used to not stack at all, so Butterfly PA used to be considered super trench).
Click to expand...

That seems like a fair assessment. The flutter ability also has the potential to "open up" the boots slot for some other item. Though that strikes me as kinda niche and often seem to valuable to give up during a contentious late game. Its an idea though!
 
C

close to the edge

Member
Monochromaticx said:
ugh tobi is in the party now. queue endless bitchness.
Click to expand...
Yeah, he can be annoying.

I was trying to watch Funn1k's stream yesterday because no one else but him and other cyka streamers were on, but I couldn't. I turned the stream on, his team lost a team fight and he promptly called everyone retards in text chat. I can't watch those streams. Sing rages, but it's in good fun because he doesn't seem to take pubs seriously at all.
 
R

Razzer

Member
close to the edge said:
Yeah, he can be annoying.

I was trying to watch Funn1k's stream yesterday because no one else but him and other cyka streamers were on, but I couldn't. I turned the stream on, his team lost a team fight and he promptly called everyone retards in text chat. I can't watch those streams. Sing rages, but it's in good fun because he doesn't seem to take pubs seriously at all.
Click to expand...

He also never rages at people outside his party. Ever. You'll see his frustration on the webcam but he never actually flames. Honestly the politest streamer out there from that perspective (tho if you're in his party prepare for much trash talk).
 
M

MurkyZebra2417

Member
Dota at Weekends sure is something else. People are so angry and obviously filled with so much hate it is not even fun anymore. We were STOMPING the enemy team and everybody at our team flamed and was seriously mad at each other from minute 0 on.
Sniper even misdirected the courier all the time when somebody tried to use it. I really think some of these kids have serious issues.
 
G

G.ZZZ

Member
Tryckser said:
Dota at Weekends sure is something else. People are so angry and obviously filled with so much hate it is not even fun anymore. We were STOMPING the enemy team and everybody at our team flamed and was seriously mad at each other from minute 0 on.
Sniper even misdirected the courier all the time when somebody tried to use it. I really think some of these kids have serious issues.
Click to expand...

Good, good, let the hate flow through you.

Embrace the power of the Dark Side

Star-Wars-7-Rumor-Emperor-Returning.jpg
 
G

Gentle Rodriguez

Member
Monochromaticx said:
ugh tobi is in the party now. queue endless bitchness.
Click to expand...
"fuck fuck fuck fucking fuck fuck"

I get it Tobi can you stop
Tryckser said:
Dota at Weekends sure is something else. People are so angry and obviously filled with so much hate it is not even fun anymore. We were STOMPING the enemy team and everybody at our team flamed and was seriously mad at each other from minute 0 on.
Sniper even misdirected the courier all the time when somebody tried to use it. I really think some of these kids have serious issues.
Click to expand...

I've tried weekend Dota many times, never works out. I always end up mad af.
 
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