-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DOTA 2 |OT8| DOTA Asian Championship (1/27-2/9)
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
- Status
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
There you go.
OG agreeing with me.
I'm in a party with my russian friends, o how I've missed them.
You can still play storm.
And lose after he goes 22-0-0.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I should be more specific: I would not miss refresher Tide. I like the concept of the Refresher as it can lead to some really cool ideas and plays. I'm a big Tide fan, but I think refresher Tide is a bit too strong. The AOE radius and disable length late game when BKB's are down to 5 seconds is too much.
Refresher on most other heroes seems quite reasonable because it has real pros and cons. If you get that and can't use it because you got burst down, you spent almost 6K gold on an item you're getting no value out of. But it's almost impossible to stop a tide from blink ravaging.
I think the Refresher Gyro play we saw a couple of months ago was really onto a cool idea. Refreshed Flack Cannon, Gyro ult, Satanic and BKB? Awesome...if you can get it all off.
I buy refresher a lot on Zeus but I feel differently about it on him than I do Tide because he doesn't disable. Late game it's not about the damage; it's about the disable....and Tide provides almost 6 seconds worth of it if timed properly. In a 1,000 AOE...
Night_Hand
Neo Member
jaja :^)
The solution is not fighting when you pick an illusion-based heroes. Ask inkls about how I played Terrorblade(against bots, but still).
Sweet, just got an 11 dollar set as a contract reward.
http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/570/Sorcerer of the Black Pool
First time a contract set has dropped in many, many games for me
http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/570/Sorcerer of the Black Pool
First time a contract set has dropped in many, many games for me
Heroes who are super cancerous with Refresher or Refresher + Aghs are:
Tidehunter
Necrophos
Omni
Doom
Void
Zeus
Invoker
I think Necro, Tide and Omni are the top 3 though
So hard to counter
That's the Paradox
Dreams-Visions
Member
I'm okay with refresher Zeus and Invoker. The former is countered hard by a pipe and the later takes quite a bit of skill to use well. Refresher Omni...I've seen maybe once in life. I can see how it'd be ridiculous in a full 5v5, though.
Refresher Doom, Tide and Necro can kiss my ass, though. They are actually cancer.
Refresher Void...not sure how I feel about him. I've not seen it enough in any of my games to have an opinion. Aghs + Refresher on Void means you're relying on the rest of your team to actually do damage because your own right-clicks ain't shit. idk.
Jex
Member
Clearly you haven't seen enough Refresher Death Prophets, that's the real pain.
Uhhh like 9 of the 25 most picked heroes in competitive dota are supports. Now if you follow the traditional 1-5 farm priority, supports will usually make up 1/5th or 2/5th's of a team. So they are plenty represented at the top, there aren't just "5 good supports" as reddit loves to tout.
It's always been a gigantic misconception that supports are always underpowered in dota, since the very beginning. People just have something about being shitslammed by farmed carries, and because supports are usually more fragile and positioning dependent (and thus, arguably more difficult to play), when they start to feed or get caught out of position early, they love to play the "this support sucks card."
In general though, the game has become more and more favorable for supports. With passive and assist gold buffs, they get more farm. With insanely powerful aghanim's effects, they can now have a very large presence in the late game. Cheaper wards are also a bonus. Legit I can't even think of a support I'd consider grossly underpowered right now, there are definitely a few that are underpicked, but underpowered or weak? I don't know, every hero pretty much feels viable to me.
Also the whole blanket, "only 5 good supports because I watch comp. play" can be applied to pretty much any other role. Not only is it wrong, but you can also wrongly claim "only 5 good carries that I see pro's play over and over again," "only 5 good offlaners that I see in competitive," icefraud pls. Competitive is all about trends. Skywrath, ogre magi, Jakiro, AA, Earthshaker, WD, mirana, ET, rubick, Wisp, Lich, Shadow Demon, Venomancer, Wraith King, Visage, Disruptor, Dazzle, and Zeus; boom, way more than 5 supports that pervade the first two pages of datdota's most drafted competitive heroes page.
Sometimes I wish yall played dota 8 years ago back when supports had 0 farm, no aghanim's, and just sat behind the carry while he just farmed. Very little ganking or roaming, very little late game impact. Supports have never been stronger in dota and the balance trend has been to get them more and more gold and more and more involved in the early AND late game.
Anyhow I wrote an essay in response to this cause nothing pisses me off more than reddit balance talk and their constant "supports are weak" bullshit that flies around nearly every patch.
It's simple, we kill the DP
Or in the trench walk one by one into the DP and ALL DED ;_;
Continues to blow my fucking mind that the group I play with take 40 mins to buy dusts in a Mirana game, when I've been carrying them at the 10 min mark. Or don't bother carrying sentries and plant in lane as we push.
This is what happens when there's a 1.5k + MMR difference. Most times, I just end up accepting the invite in hopes that they actually learn something. Other times because I'm bored.
This is what happens when there's a 1.5k + MMR difference. Most times, I just end up accepting the invite in hopes that they actually learn something. Other times because I'm bored.
Dreams-Visions
Member
oh shit, a 109 sighting. someone get a camera.
I agree.
That said, I do think that some of the frustration is inevitable and a function of how difficult i can be for supports to get a little gold. It's not uncommon to see a support with nothing but brown boots a bracer and a magic stick after 20 minutes.
League's solution was to create a series of dedicated "support items" (that is, items nobody but a support would really want to buy) that boost passive gold gain very slightly. like 2-3 gold per creep kill your lane mate gets. It sounds small, but it totals about an extra 30-40 gold/minute. Suddenly the second set of wards aren't so inaccessible and players are less frustrated.
It works for that game. I don't think that's an option for Dota in the same way it is for League since (a) there aren't a separate series of support items and (b) the flexibility of Dota allows for almost any hero to fulfill any role (carry Venomancer/Jakiro, for example). But maybe there's some other way. IDK. The game is fun as support when you're not infinitely poor. Anything that can help with that in a passive way would be good and people would be less averse to playing the role, I think. (though interestingly in most games I've played the last few months, Support is always the first role filled).
Imp the Dimp
Member
I agree with this. I really don't want 6.81's mechanics back.
Honestly, playing support is one of the most difficult roles in the game. If you feel that supports are 'underpowered' and are constantly losing games because of that reason, I suggest either just buckling up and losing mmr until you're at an appropriate skill level where you can play support functionally, or just play an easier role like safelane carry or offlane.
Supports have been getting nothing but buffs recently and many times they're what makes or breaks a game. If you look at teams like EG, the versatility of support heroes really shows. Aside from just having strong core players (each of whom are fantastic at what they do), EG boasts arguably the two strongest support players of the West. Instead of complaining all day about how brown boots and magic stick lose to a slark or someshit you instead analyze how zai and ppd find farm, create ganks and tempo, you'd learn a thing or two and improve your support play.
Supports are sick, you're probably just doing something wrong.
Supports have been getting nothing but buffs recently and many times they're what makes or breaks a game. If you look at teams like EG, the versatility of support heroes really shows. Aside from just having strong core players (each of whom are fantastic at what they do), EG boasts arguably the two strongest support players of the West. Instead of complaining all day about how brown boots and magic stick lose to a slark or someshit you instead analyze how zai and ppd find farm, create ganks and tempo, you'd learn a thing or two and improve your support play.
Supports are sick, you're probably just doing something wrong.
That's simply the entire design behind dota though (a design league didn't agree with, and decided to change, and your right, it works for their game, but not this one).
There is only so much farm on your map, and you have to allocate that farm somehow. So naturally, you stick the farm on the heroes that need it, and you don't give the farm to heroes that are plenty strong without it. Supports with only 1-2 items, a force staff or a eul's, then maybe an aghanim's if you can get it in the late game is plenty common and pretty damn powerful and fun. Sure, being a poor support on a losing team sucks, but so does being any other role in most losing scenarios. If there were ways to boost up the 4/5 to the rest of the pack, then you'd have more 4-5 carry lineups running around.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I agree. I'm just addressing the topic of people complaining about playing support or not having fun in the role. There's a reason for it: people don't like not having any items or having to choose between boots or responding to teammate pressure to buy another set of sentry wards @ 10 minutes. Lots of demands are put on the people least likely to be able to afford to pay for what's being requested. Salt-levels can increase rapidly. Which of course begs the question: what can be done to make the game marginally more enjoyable for a poor support? I don't really know, but I know that some people can't find a way to enjoy bring perma-broke. Telling them, "well if you had played the game 8 years ago...whooo boy!" is the coldest of cold comfort.
This discussion originated from Reddit right?
JakkuFurosu
Member
Support heroes best heroes period
I ended a 50 sutting game as SD with ONLY arcanes and a GG branch or 2 cause tekkie tax sucks....but we won so yeah
my only issue with support play is when the blame game starts its OMG support is only level whatever and has no farm...wheres your aghs noob
I ended a 50 sutting game as SD with ONLY arcanes and a GG branch or 2 cause tekkie tax sucks....but we won so yeah
my only issue with support play is when the blame game starts its OMG support is only level whatever and has no farm...wheres your aghs noob
I love roaming duos. I wish this were an easier thing to coordinate in pubs.
Speaking of supports, who is excited for some sick play from Fy and Fenrir this week?
Necro, doom, and razor. The worst.
Purple Cheeto
Member
People want to play supports in DotA2 like solo queue people play support in LoL. I.e. they pick a carry with a stun, build carry items and never ward or do anything a support should.
Most league players don't even buy support items when playing support. They just build high farm carry items and try to get kills.
Ember Spirit
Banned
is there any hero worse than chaos knight
Monochromaticx
Member
Literally 10 years since VG played a damn game. So hyped!
Dreams-Visions
Member
Like Dota, it depends on your MMR. If that's what you're seeing in your League matches, ya gotta get out of Bronze-tier.
In Dota or League, bad supports have the option to and may prioritize selfish damage items (like Aghs or eBlade) instead of items the team actually needs (like wards, Mek, Urn, Pipe).
In League those items go by different names but the principle is the same. Good supports are buying good support items with rare exception. And in fact, that exception is much more rare than it is in Dota where some offensive (aghs) upgrades are the reason you pick a given support hero. There is no such scenario in League.
If you are perma-broke as a support you're doing something wrong. Especially when playing supports who have farming abilities like jakiro or sand king.
If you don't enjoy playing heroes who are "perma-broke" why are you playing support or position 5 to begin with? Thats like complaining that you don't like playing Viper when he's your most played hero.
There comes a time in every pub where your team won't stop fighting and you can choose to go into the jungle and farm up or stay with your team, lose fights and be flat broke. It is hard to make that farm choice but it is typically the better choice to make.
JakkuFurosu
Member
what happens far too often is theres 1 support 4 cores.
add a invis hero on enemy...permabroke...between wards and rotating you are broke EVEN with the pulls and trying to grab farm in a lane b4 one of the cores strolls in you stay pretty poor whole game
Dreams-Visions
Member
Well you're kind of all over the place with your line of questioning. What do you actually want answered?
Your scenario of "you shouldn't be broke as a support" starts with dishonesty by assuming Jakiro or Sand King. Well no, you shouldn't be broke playing Sand King or Jakiro or Crystal Maiden becuase you can walk into the jungle, right? Right. But not every support is as capable as those. So why even bring them up as if they're the standard when they're very clearly the fucking the exception? Seems disingenuous.
Assume someone isn't playing a support with an easy farming mechanic like jakiro or sand king. Assume...eh...idunno. Shadow Demon. Assume your team has a greedy jungler (maybe Doom, maybe Legion) who's being an asshole and farming the pull camp and doesn't speak English for you to tell them to stop. Assume your lane mate is a passive farmer (say, Spectre or AM) that you can do little more than protect against that asshole Viper + Venomancer douchebag enemy offlane comp. Mid is just barely breaking even and not ready to start roaming (let's say Tinker or Invoker who want specific levels or specific items before getting active). And the solo offlaner is a solo offlaner. Doesn't sound very fun for that support. He's not getting tower gold, his lane is incapable of getting kills, and he can't pull. This isn't an unusual circumstance. It's a pretty common situation, actually. And if you're playing that lane vs a Brood, you have to dump money into:
1.) Sent wards and/or dust
2.) Vision wards
3.) Courier and upgrade
unless you're getting help.
As for why one is playing support...sometimes you don't have a choice, now do you? Let's not act like we've never played a game of solo pub dota before. Sometimes you have to fill the role needed. If everyone else decided to random 3 carries and a mid...and if you'd still like a chance at winning...you're playing hard support. Right? Right. Or you're abandoning the game.
Does that adequately address your multiple questions?
IKR? I remember that one time when i was ld and we were getting rax and we got team wiped except for our venge who was in the jungle. We pinged her so much, what a scrub :^)
I'm saying usually a support should not be broke because a good support knows where to grab farm, and I said that being broke is much less likely when playing the support heroes i mention.
First SD's poison ability is great to clear waves so I'll challenge that assertion that hes not an easy farmer, but your team decided to go max greed and you didn't take into consideration this when picking a support, not to mention SD is pretty good as a 5 solo support. If my team picks AM, Tinker, NP and I go in and pick support Naga then I made the gamble that my team could get away with having such a greedy lineup and win.
Yes we all played support at least once, but do you expect to play supports as carries and get quick items? Personally, its all about the little things. That one play that changed the course of the game, not getting my deso on venge.
edit: urgh, you edited your post, will reread and answer later.
NormalFish
Banned
and the choice that gets you flamed for 30 minutes.
Dreams-Visions
Member
If it takes you 30 minutes to become helpful and the team needs help, you've already lost. At minimum, you need to be able to offer some sort of split pushing if you're not going to help in full-on team fights. Being afk in the jungle when the enemy is pushing towers 5-man style is most definitely how you lose the game. Pushing lanes at least keeps them somewhat honest and forces some rotations.
NormalFish
Banned
you underestimate how long people hold onto things in dota matches. 30 minutes is your "mistake" to the end of the game.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Here's an idea that could help with the whole supports can't get any farm situation. What if they changed midas to work like this:
Midas now costs 2500 gold to purchase, in addition to giving the buyer the gold increase, it also gives the entire team an extra 50 gold per use. To stop teams from buying five of them, there would be a limit of two midas's per team.
Midas now costs 2500 gold to purchase, in addition to giving the buyer the gold increase, it also gives the entire team an extra 50 gold per use. To stop teams from buying five of them, there would be a limit of two midas's per team.
JakkuFurosu
Member
i honestly dont think poor supports is a problem. Permabroke != useless....passive and the occasional last hit/assist gets you what you need and permabroke isn't a everygame situation
Yes as someone who only plays support, fuck those who don't know what the 4 role is. Having to solo support is shit.
When you are buying wards and smoke on CD every single time, your networth is at the mercy of the team. This is doubly true when playing against any sort of invis hero that requires sentries. Any gold you get beyond that is coming from towers and teamfights that you happen to survive. It's easy to say "go find some farm", but in games where you are behind early and T1s are going down, safe farm is at a premium and should be left for the cores.
I mean but that can lead us in all kinds of directions like, what can be done to make the game more enjoyable for a poor carry? A poor offlaner? A team getting smashed? I think the answer to a lot of these was the introduction of comeback mechanics (despite how heavily nerfed they are, they are still present). But yeah, losing hard sucks, losing hard when poor sucks harder, but hey, someone's gotta lose right?
But to me dota is inherently fun with your base skills, the combos you can pull off, the big plays, and the teamwork. I know that's different for everyone; but shit, I haven't been playing much dota in the past month or so. However, most of my last 5-6 games have been playing a poor 4, 5, or 4.5 support, and it's still hella fun. I don't care if I don't have items on spiritbreaker, I'm still using my skills as best I can, charging peeps and putting my team in a position to win. That's just dota.
Hell, many support players I know find the whole warding/counter-warding mind game to be fun, to hell with having items as long as you bitch slap that other support down and establish map dominance with a handful of 150g consumables. To each his own, but to me, the people you are describing simply don't like playing support or the demands that come with it, and are better off playing carry or offlane, and that's fine, dota has roles and heroes for everyone.
I agree solo supporting can be hell, and that's unfortunately just a symptom of solo queueing that I think occurs in pretty much every game, LoL, dota, Wow, whatever else have you, and it's difficult to find a solution for. Pub life sucks everywhere. Thankfully, I have the luxury of playing with mumblegaf; guys I've been playing with for years. Dota is much more enjoyable in a group and I wouldn't be playing it today if I was still solo queuing (though I went through that dota 1 and HoN solo queue life for a couple years).
Purple Cheeto
Member
This is basically my issue in DotA2. If you pick support you're the only support. Thus you're buying Mek, Pipe, Wards, Smoke, Dust etc. This is why people feel "perma broke". When I play with 4 people who know how to prioritize farm I don't have this problem. I don't think the game is broken, I just think the average player doesn't understand farm priority and gold distribution.
So your advice is "get good". The majority of players are bronze tier, so getting out of bronze tier for everyone isn't a realistic goal.
The inherent problem in both games (or the genre in general) is that this is a massive cooperation and communication based game and expecting 5 randoms to work together is virtually impossible.
- Status