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DOTA 2 |OT8| DOTA Asian Championship (1/27-2/9)
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
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Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Wheres Admiral Bulldog?
NormalFish
Banned
tip for everyone who doesn't enjoy supp: play heroes who need no farm, but naturally get it like sk/jak/lina/ogre (from farming, pushing, or killing)
NormalFish
Banned
I had a void who would always back when i ulted him. drove me mental.
I was thinking tusk would be pretty decent vs the popular lycan puck strat, let's see if it really works: http://www.twitch.tv/dotapit (4ASC vs Alliance)
Dreams-Visions
Member
You guys remember when Bane was released?
Now THOSE were some bad games. Nobody understood how nightmare worked. At all.
Naga picks was also pretty awful when she launched.
For sure, but you control the early game, how did it come to this? You're making a gamble that those items will pay out by buying them though. I had a game as techies where their mirana made life hell for me, she kept buying sentries, she bought gems nonstop (I had 4 at the end in my stash), and kept scouting high ground/rosh pit with arrow to make sure no mines were there. They won, I'd argue that the investment was worth it even if it was only to counter a single hero. How many times have rikkis snowballed out of control because early sentries weren't deemed necessary?
EDIT: can we also give an award to 4asc for having a player called mynuts? Its a bit childish but I find it hilarious when the caster go "my nuts doing work" or "amazing play by my nuts".
he's standing in for alliance though.
oh my bad.
NormalFish
Banned
Jerax is so good. The TA/BB/Jugg tricore seemed pretty weak though.
No name change yet. Moody pls :<
Honestly I think the reason people think supports are underpowered are because they have their biggest impact early, but most supports waste their potential sapping xp as they do nothing but stack/pull and occasionally harass. Then twenty minutes past, they lose efficacy, and wonder why their team lost them the game. Good supports serve a win on a silver platter for carries. As people have said, everyone bows down to cores like black, burning, and rtz as the greatest when they should have posters of zai and lanm on their walls instead. Teams are looking for supports because fewer people know that support isn't a synonym for "backline player," it's another word for Bouncer.
I swear I read a post just like this earlier this year or last. Agreed though.
Honestly I think the reason people think supports are underpowered are because they have their biggest impact early, but most supports waste their potential sapping xp as they do nothing but stack/pull and occasionally harass. Then twenty minutes past, they lose efficacy, and wonder why their team lost them the game. Good supports serve a win on a silver platter for carries. As people have said, everyone bows down to cores like black, burning, and rtz as the greatest when they should have posters of zai and lanm on their walls instead. Teams are looking for supports because fewer people know that support isn't a synonym for "backline player," it's another word for Bouncer.
NormalFish
Banned
Fixed that for you.
I recently had a shit game with him because I randomed but even deprived of farm he's fun.
I disagree that people don't appreciate pro supports, especially these days. Zai gets way more recognition here than RTZ, as can be seen from the posts during Dreamhack, and Fy and Fenrir get praised as gods more than anyone, fy in particular.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1063849812
Most stressful game ever. Techies delayed the game so much and it took half of the game for bs to finally kill PA. We finally won the last teamfight and went for the gg push mid
Alch and PA bought back and tp'ed into our base and got megas which lost them the game because that gave us enough time to destroy their t4 and end it.
Alch and techies were so salty. Bunch of idiots.
Most stressful game ever. Techies delayed the game so much and it took half of the game for bs to finally kill PA. We finally won the last teamfight and went for the gg push mid
Alch and PA bought back and tp'ed into our base and got megas which lost them the game because that gave us enough time to destroy their t4 and end it.
Alch and techies were so salty. Bunch of idiots.
Good (albeit late) post mortem on Alliance's TI3 win: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/472373-strategy-over-skill-alliance-ascendant
Encourage everyone to read this.
Encourage everyone to read this.
NormalFish
Banned
Haven't read it, but while I agree in general that TI winners generally out draft and out macro-game their opponents (rather than just outplaying them on a micro level) Akke and EGM were so far ahead of the other support duos during TI3 that it was disgusting.
**Wait, they seem to think that Alliance was some sort of dark horse. WTF? Everyone in their right mind knew they were a favourite going into TI3. Both on a skill and strategic level.
Alright, I've skimmed over most of it. It's pretty well written and has a lot of great points. However, I still think it's odd that they want to present Alliance as a team that won despite [something], when in fact Alliance just had the current meta figured out perfectly, same as Newbee at TI4.
**Wait, they seem to think that Alliance was some sort of dark horse. WTF? Everyone in their right mind knew they were a favourite going into TI3. Both on a skill and strategic level.
Alright, I've skimmed over most of it. It's pretty well written and has a lot of great points. However, I still think it's odd that they want to present Alliance as a team that won despite [something], when in fact Alliance just had the current meta figured out perfectly, same as Newbee at TI4.
Dreams-Visions
Member
SecretMoblin
Member
just in the ~2 months I've been watching
aui & zai >>>>>>
they're at least fun to watch because they do shit the entire game and often have really clutch or innovative plays
also they seem nice which helps
aui & zai >>>>>>
they're at least fun to watch because they do shit the entire game and often have really clutch or innovative plays
also they seem nice which helps
NormalFish
Banned
2 of the most mechanically profficient supports to date. They're tons of fun to watch. Aui's visage in particular.
I'm still bummed about meracle not being at the Summit. Apparently he's shy, but I'd like to see how he is (not to mention watching him play)
NormalFish
Banned
yeah, the analysis is good. There are a few sections that I think tackle false premises, but for the most part he stays on target and really explains why alliance were able to dominate the way they did.
What else do you attribute their post-TI3 decline to? Their favored strategy was nerfed and the tech they pioneered assimilated by other teams. Once every player's obviously narrower and weaker hero pool was exposed, they fell off the grid. All the championship players are struggling to stay relevant with the exception of s4, who seems to have had the most potential as a player all along.
NormalFish
Banned
The meta shifted VERY strongly out of their favour and they got left behind. That isn't so much a skill thing as a team cohesion and playstyle issue. Additionally, they got studied so hard that everyone knew how to beat them. VG at the end of TI4 had the same thing happen to them. They weren't totally outclassed skill-wise, but Newbee had a better understanding of the meta and studied VG so effectively that there wasn't much they could do.
It took way longer for teams to figure out alliance, though, because their way of playing was so different at a basic level, as that analysis said.
**It's also worth noting that I don't think a single team has had the meta so figured out and then was subsequently "nerfed" so hard. either the patch immediately following TI3 or the one after that was a patch that many people viewed as a direct nerf to alliance.
Well, skill levels are not static. I would wager that even the likes of current Navi could beat TI3 Alliance, even if it was on the TI3 patch. I don't think that Bulldog in particular has kept up with the general growth in skill since then, so modern day alliance are indeed not as skilled as other teams. Other things such as meta etc have already been mentioned.
In fact, now that I think about it, the hero pool notion isn't even that relevant besides Bulldog and maybe EGM. Akke plays lots of heroes well, and Loda is only rivaled by Fear in the west in his ability to play pretty much any carry to a top tier standard, even if he doesn't decimate on anyone like say an RTZ Lycan.
Edit: Oh, and I should also be clear I don't think Alliance were more skilled either. But that opening makes it seem like they were miles behind.
Reading this now. I'm about half way through and it's really good so far.
NormalFish
Banned
I think Bulldog is the only person that has a really limited support pool. EGM plays a small variety of heroes, but I think it's more by choice than necessity.
Games have gotten considerably worse in low pro, I got 6 games
Game 1 We are up 0-5 on kills and things are going very well when our mid starts feeding couriers and proceeds to feed courier for the rest of the game.
Game 2 our sniper goes offlane with my weaver and we have two supports in bot sniper proceeds to stat intentionally feeding over and over.
Game 3 a Tiny and Beastmaster combo they come to the jungle where I am on Lone Druid and create a hawk on the little hill by the first camp throw me to it and then feed the courier over and over so I can't get a TP scroll.
3 more games :/
Newwwp I have 6 now. I think they put me on the hill too long and I abandoned lol. What a fucking nightmare.
Game 1 We are up 0-5 on kills and things are going very well when our mid starts feeding couriers and proceeds to feed courier for the rest of the game.
Game 2 our sniper goes offlane with my weaver and we have two supports in bot sniper proceeds to stat intentionally feeding over and over.
Game 3 a Tiny and Beastmaster combo they come to the jungle where I am on Lone Druid and create a hawk on the little hill by the first camp throw me to it and then feed the courier over and over so I can't get a TP scroll.
3 more games :/
Newwwp I have 6 now. I think they put me on the hill too long and I abandoned lol. What a fucking nightmare.
NormalFish
Banned
how are you alerted to being in low-prio btw?
you'll know. trust me. valve rubs it in.
NormalFish
Banned
lol alright. I tend to be harsh but pretty fair, so I haven't been banished yet.
Valve makes it very explicit. You have red warning text, you have a red queuing bar, the system tells you its low priority.
NormalFish
Banned
Heaven's Halberd has got to be the most underrated item right now. Shit is ridiculous against some of the strongest carries this patch.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Good Batrider play makes everything so much simpler. Damn.
uphill miss chance + heaven halberd
Dreams-Visions
Member
If not for that roar, that PA 1v4's your team. WP, satch.
Icefrog, pls.
I don't believe melee can miss uphill.
Night_Hand
Neo Member
Heaven's Halberd gives evasion so she was missing me
if her bkb hadn't run out when it did she would have wiped our whole team off the face of the map :rip:
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