Support NeoGAF

[Alucrid]

Quick question. Should I import my Origins save or my Awakenings save that imported my Origins save?

 

[Gvaz]

The second one.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

BioWare has been planning this new direction for years. I knew this quote would eventually be relevant.

They must have a very low opinion of action games....

 

[Danj]

That's not as popular as Frontierville for example.

Yeah, for one thing you can't play Dragon Age Legends from behind a corporate firewall. Who the hell heard of a Facebook game you can't play in your lunchbreak at work?!

 

[Basileus777]

Uh, so Merrill moves out of lowtown, gets better armor, then Hawke says for the whole game "this is the only thing merrill has moved in here, I guess she doesn't really feel like this is her home". No exposition to why she looks differently, just randomly changing it. If that was really the case, it would made more sense if she hung around at your home.

In act III she's at your home at night.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Bioware obviously had a sit-down years ago before the first Mass Effect released about how to transition their company away from having to bust ass on so much detail that isnt "needed" in order to have an enjoyable "rpg" experience.

So they make both ME 1 and DA 1 very in-depth while also trying to be cinematic and somewhat action oriented. Lots of details in these games and they are also very large.

Then when they have hooked their audience they slowly wean them off all that detail and depth and transition themselves to be more action and story focused, thereby allowing more frequent releases and less development time.

The next iterations of these games will probably have a slight bit of additional "streamlining" taking place.

One one hand you can definitely blame Bioware for dumbing their shit down, but on the other you have to blame the fact gamers scoff at anything that doesnt look amazing these days and have cool matrix-y effects. All that shit means their dev times go up making everything cooler and better and so something has to go to make things manageable if they want to make money.

Kinda sucks all around. Very few companies these days seem blessed with the ability to continue their hardcore endeavors while being able to deliver top-quality assets everywhere and take 3-4 years on dev time and make money. Thank god for guys like Bethesda and Rockstar.

 

[epmode]

It's kind of funny to see so many people listing DA2 or ME2 as the downfall of Bioware when their biggest downhill jump has always been from Baldur's Gate 2 to KOTOR. It's also funny how so many people see Dragon Age Origins as some kind of return to PC-RPG form when it's no more in-depth than KOTOR.

Even so, I still really like KOTOR and Mass Effect 2 in spite of everything while Dragon Age 2 is inexcusable. A few more like this and it's a Lucasarts-class downfall.

 

[Lostconfused]

It's kind of funny to see so many people listing DA2 or ME2 as the downfall of Bioware when their biggest downhill jump has always been from Baldur's Gate 2 to KOTOR.

What am I like the only person that still remembers Neverwinter Nights? I mean really, that was their worst game before Jade Empire.

 

[Confidence Man]

Bioware obviously had a sit-down years ago before the first Mass Effect released about how to transition their company away from having to bust ass on so much detail that isnt "needed" in order to have an enjoyable "rpg" experience.

Looking back at that quote Nirolak posted, I suppose it never really mattered whether Origins was loved or hated, whether it sold a ton of copies or bombed. It was an old and busted relic that only saw the light of day so they could salvage the five years investment.

The trajectory for the franchise was determined before the first game even came out.

 

[FateBreaker]

It's kind of funny to see so many people listing DA2 or ME2 as the downfall of Bioware when their biggest downhill jump has always been from Baldur's Gate 2 to KOTOR. It's also funny how so many people see Dragon Age Origins as some kind of return to PC-RPG form when it's no more in-depth than KOTOR.

Even so, I still really like KOTOR and Mass Effect 2 in spite of everything while Dragon Age 2 is inexcusable. A few more like this and it's a Lucasarts-class downfall.

k so I am not too much on the BioWare thing. I played DA and loved it, and I played Jade Empire and I loved it. But I always hear that ME2 and KOTOR and BG2 are their best games.

so...this confuses me.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Bioware has the george lucas syndrome, next they'll be remastering their old games to match "the new shit".

You will like the accept the A for awesome tripe if it's the last thing you do.

 

[Nirolak]

Alright, I finished the list I promised earlier.

Disclaimer: Obviously a lot can change in two years, so no promises that this is accurate.

Dragon Age 3 Features (Based on developer statements, includes some speculation, all sources are fully quoted in the Google Doc in the same order as the feature list. They also include handy quote tags in case you want to bring any over for discussion.):

-Co-op is extremely likely.
-The dialog wheel is staying along with the intent icons.
-No reused environments.
-Waves are returning, but will be used far more sparingly in favor of battles with stronger but fewer enemies.
-They’re putting a large focus on adding more gameplay systems besides combat, conversation, and trap disarming. One example was a much more complex crafting system.
-Companion armor will still be preset, but may have either more evolutions, change more often based on events, or let you change armor class (I assume they mean heavy/medium/etc) while retaining a similar look. I get the impression there may be more trinkets also.
-The party and combat system will be similar, but with more cross class combinations and tactics based around them, probably to better support co-op.
-The tactical camera seems very unlikely to return.
-The skills (Persuasion, Herbalism, etc) are very unlikely to return (as in, they will be as non-existent as they were in Dragon Age 2).
-Most likely takes place in Orlais, with maybe some part in Rivain (unless Rivain was a DLC/Spin-off/Dragon Age 4 hint).
-We’ll be seeing more of the Qunari, and very likely the return of having Qunari party members.
-Changed pacing with the return of “urgency”, perhaps through just having a looming antagonist for most of the game again.
-Not a yearly series, and given that Dragon Age, Awakenings, and Dragon Age 2 all came out (or were originally scheduled for) March, March 2013 is a safe bet for release.
-They’re ultimately trying to make something that gets GTA players to try fantasy RPGs.

These last two are a bit separate from Dragon Age 3 directly, but notable for the general future of BioWare's games in general:

-In September 2007 (before Mass Effect 1 released), Greg Zeschuk noted that BioWare as a whole feels the holy grail of game design lies somewhere between an action RPG and Grand Theft Auto. This is notable since a few days ago Mike Laidlaw raised a very similar point, so it seems this is still BioWare's general direction.
-Mark Darrah (Executive Producer) also states that BioWare primarily views their games as interactive narratives: "BioWare is known for making RPGs, but what we're really trying to make are interactive narratives. (snip) So it's not that we're dumbing down our games, we're simply making our stories more accessible to as many people as possible."

Overall, they seem interested in addressing concerns, but primarily the concerns of mainstream gamers/reviewers as opposed to the concerns raised by traditional RPG fans.

The game as a whole definitely seems to be quite indicative of the new direction for the franchise, but it's not one entirely set in stone.

There were a couple more items like BioWare hinting at the future return of Morrigan and Shale, adding female Qunari, and mentioning that each Dragon Age game branches off from some part of the previous game's story that I couldn't refind quotes for so I left them out, but I thought I would note them here in case anyone wants to trust my memory. If anyone sees anything else, please feel free to mention it.

Sources:
1. http://www.gamespot.com/features/6305575/p-1.html
2. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-11-dragon-age-3-there-are-always-ideas
3. http://www.1up.com/features/dragon-age-2-afterthoughts
4. http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=24559&storypage=3
5. http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/820/820402p1.html
6. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/6876932&lf=8

Co-op:

One missing ingredient of BioWare's Dragon Age and Mass Effect series has been any form of multiplayer. But Laidlaw's enthusiasm suggests this may not be the case for long.
"Just from a fundamental idea: [multiplayer] absolutely would [work]," he said. "A big part of that is going back to fundamentals of the Dragon Age series and that sense of team; that we are stronger together than we are divided, which is in many ways a story theme through DA2.
"Any time you have a game that is aware of the advantages of teamwork, what it's like when multiple classes combine their abilities, be it a rogue not just stunning enemies but helping to conceal his friends so that they can take damage better - that's where you do an allegory that says yeah, we could do multiplayer here for sure.
"I do think the changes made to Dragon Age II in terms of responsiveness are going to be things that could translate better into multiplayer than Origins, which had that inherent delay between what I was ordering and what was happening. It's certainly laying an interesting groundwork.
"Long-term that's something we have to consider," he added, "because obviously multiplayer is something that's a huge undertaking, it presents technical difficulty. And frankly it's something that if done, has to be done really well, otherwise it feels very tacked on. So we'll have to make any decision about that within that context."

Dialog Wheel:

GS: In terms of interacting with these companions or other characters in the game, how do you feel about the way the dialogue wheel came together and how it made things a little more clear and direct?
ML: I'm very happy with it. The wheel, as a whole, provides a couple of really cool advantages. It lets us hold more conversation options than we had available in Origins where we had a cap of six. We technically have a cap of 10, so you can get a nice, cleaner interface to ask questions for clarification. I love the investigate system. It also provides what I see as the prize behind every door insofar as when you read a line of Origins dialogue for comparison, you see everything you could potentially say. In your brain, you've done the totality of that conversation. Whereas looking and saying, "Oh, I know that's going to be a smart-aleck line, but I don't feel it'd be right to use it," you're left with that temptation or that urge to pick it because you can't tell exactly what you'll say. What I think is the key gain with the icons is that you do know it will be sarcastic, which allows you to make a much clearer choice about how you want to interact with characters. If it was going to be suave or if it was going to be diplomatic, you know at a glance rather than having some confusion around what might happen.
Text is always a pretty horrible medium for conveying sarcasm or sincerity. Being able to put a heart, as much as you could argue that you could tell, lets you say, "OK, I'm certain with this choice. I'm not making it blind." That's very important when you want to associate yourself with a character.

Reused Environments:

Absolutely, and I think it's a fair critique, and it's not one that I'm going to leave unaddressed, frankly. What we ran into was the situation where we had the ability to have more plots, more content, some side stuff that we knew would be optional, but we didn't have the assets to create entirely new levels for. So we took a long look at that, and said, "Is it important to have more content in the game, or is it important that the content be 100-percent unique?" So we tried to strike a balance, and tried to evaluate a good way to use this. I think the one thing that caught us a little bit off-side was, with the caves having much more interesting features than just "generic cave with left bend," -- you know, having things like collapsed or old masonry and so on -- is that end up probably creating a larger sense of repetition than we thought would originally occur. And the end result is something I look at and go, "Okay, I think that is a shame, and that is a fair critique, and something we can easily address in the future."

Waves:

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy /images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png)

Additional Systems:

There always are. A number of them are set aside briefly to be explored later. What I really understand about Dragon Age II is that we retooled a lot of the game and set ourselves up for a greater challenge by trying to retool it--combat falls into this case--in a lot of fundamental ways while still trying to capture the same feel. It would have been much easier to explode the whole thing and say, "Ah, whatever. You control one character and you don't have any conversation options. There." That's an easier game to make, but that's not Dragon Age at that point. Looking at the fundamentals and looking at the overall pacing and flow became our focus for Dragon Age II, and the thing we have a mandate to do is add in suitable and fitting additional activities. My next big goal is to make sure that there are deeper interactions with crafting or the next steps in terms of being able to do more than talk, fight, and disarm traps.
There's a fairly wide spread of things to do. But I think as a player, saying "OK cool. You did a lot of cool work here, but I would like more. I'd like to be able to interact with my world more"--that's a perfectly fair request, and that's one we're hoping to address as we go forward.

Companion Armor:

It's likely that we'll end up coming back to a way to equip your followers, but at the same time, I really do think that having their own visual signature is really important.

GS: Did you toy with the idea of tying the equipment system with the relationship system? For example, you can equip a character only if you've built a positive relationship with him or her.
ML: To a degree, it was something we considered. You'll notice that if you have Merrill or Anders move in with you, they'll change outfits in response to getting out of Lowtown or Darktown. It's something where I think there's a lot of weight behind it whether it's an unlockable reward for earning their companionship or if it's something where their visual signature remains the same, but has more evolutions. Potentially, it could go so far as letting you change to a certain class of armor, but keeping their visual style the same so that they maintain a consistency, even though you still have control over their inventory. These are all things for us to explore.

Combat:

I don't think anyone should ever say they're done balancing or designing classes. There's always something better we can do. Here's what I think we did: with Dragon Age 2, we kind of recognize that there were two paths. With Origins, Warriors and Rogues existed in what I tend to think of as "low fantasy" paradigm. They weren't particularly flashy, and they swung their swords at a reasonable pace. They engaged in combat in a way that I call "mundane." The Mages, though, were masters of pyrotechnics and spell combos and so no. Basically, Mages were arguably overpowered, but also flashier and more visually satisfying.
So we recognize that we can go one of two ways: one would be to pull Mages down and say, "they now have to mix potions and throw flasks, so they have much longer casts and much longer risk-reward factors and so on." I absolutely think that could work; a Mage fantasy game that feels like that would work very well because it's consistent across the board. But that wasn't the decision we chose to make, because with mages, we already established this degree of pyrotechnics.
So we looked at Rogue and we looked at Warrior, and said, "I think we can bring them up to be as satisfying and visceral as tossing a fireball." And we reach a level of parity where being a warrior doesn't feel like, "that lame thing I don't want to play because I want to play a mage instead." And so, that's where adding some more visuals, or being able to take on multiple guys with a single swing and so on, became part of the Warrior's paradigm. Similarly, the Rogue and the high mobility brought them into the same level of parity. We're not done balancing -- there's still tons of work to continue to do about how the different classes can interact and so on. We can even deepen the tactical depth of it, but for now, I'm happy with the steps we made thus far.

Tactical Camera:

The perspective we had for the tactical camera in Origins, with its extreme pull-up, created a very different approach for the way we designed levels. What it really created was restrictions on the way we designed levels. Things like Hightown with the chantry vaulting up into the distance would have been very difficult to achieve in that kind of tactical camera simply because of the way spaces and levels were constructed. With that in mind, we looked at getting enough space to move the camera in and out to be able to position it, and I think the main complaint seems to be that it's tethered to my character. At the same time, it's something that represents a change that's still very playable. It's just become a hot-button issue because it's a difference between Origins and Dragon Age II.

Skills (Persuasion/Herbalism/etc):

The removal, such as they were, was really the skills. My opinion of the Origins skills is that they were a little vestigial. They were there, and they certainly served their purpose in terms of putting points into crafting, and as a result of putting points in crafting, I can now make cooler things. That's very good, but the problem is, because we're providing a party where you can have a B team--to use the old Final Fantasy terminology--you could have Oghren as a master herbologist, mixing together all of your potions at camp rather than having you feel like you're making a meaningful sacrifice. You just have a character you simply didn't use who covered that base for you. Again, looking at that, we thought that really wasn't rewarding. It's more just kind of a pain. Survival being not exactly the most compelling skill and persuade being one that I personally felt was never particularly strong simply because it's an abstraction of natural charisma, which we in turn tried to turn it into, "OK, did you bring the right follower with you? Do you have the right personality to pull this off?"
That was the removal of a system that provided little gain towards an extra step for character progression. Then, of course, looking at the talents, which are the spells or abilities--to me, they open themselves up by being a web instead of a chain. They allowed for greater customization. They allowed people to dabble and yet still get to the ability they wanted in the tree. They also allowed for things, like a certain school like entropy to have focuses where you can say, "If I go up this tree, I'm the more damaging, hex-related side, or if I go up this tree, I'm the more sleep and disabling side." This means you don't have to invest fully in the tree just to partake in a part that you want to use as a part of your strategy.

Orlais/Rivain:

I think, probably, currently, that Orlais is more fascinating simply because we've seen more of it. We've seen more hints, heard more stories from Leliana, and Orlais has just teased us more. It's been more coquettish -- we've seen the ankle and we want to see what's above it. So to me, Orlais is the one that has a ton of draw and really will intrigue people. Because it is a fascinating culture, and similar to how the Qunari are very different from Ferelden or Kirkwall, Orlais offers up another slice of the world. And recall that I said that Dragon Age is about the world. So it's something that, I think people are rightfully intrigued by, and it's something that as a design team, intrigues us too.
Though, what's also interesting is to see how, every once in a while, people gloms on to how interesting Rivain is. It's where the Qunari invaded, and at least half of the Rivaini have converted to the Qun, which results in an interesting cultural situation. Also, pirates. So for me, Dragon Age's two core strengths are: on the gameplay side, it's about the party, working together, to achieve a kind of tactical mastery -- that's something that I think is key to the Dragon Age franchise. From a world perspective, these are living breathing countries to the point where I have a four-foot wide map of the continent hanging in my living room, and often find myself staring at different geographic regions going, "yeah, we can absolutely go there."

Pacing:

Presuming that I retain what I know now for this do-over, the awareness of the reuse of areas is probably one of the key things -- using that more artfully would certainly be key. If I was going to "tweak" anything, then probably some of the elements of pacing at the beginning of the game. The urgency of drawing you into the expedition would have been something that I would have looked at and re-structure the overall pacing of. Because I think some people felt a little bit detached because, frankly, it's not a game without a big looming evil dragon, demon, or demigod at the end; which creates an almost unexpected story mechanic, and one that I'm honestly very proud to have tried, and think we managed to break the mold with a reasonable degree of success. I think there are probably better ways to deliver that and look at the pacing and so on. There has never been a game that I've worked on yet where I wouldn't say, "You know, we probably and with perfect hindsight, could have done a better job with the pacing." That's the nature of story-based gaming, or RPGs, in a lot of ways. You pretty much find almost every RPG designer saying that same thing. So those two are probably my hot dynamics, but the simple truth, when you have things that make you go, "if I could go back, I would do this," then you immediately start staring forward and say, "Great, so these are lessons to be learned for the future. We can do this better."

Not yearly:

I'm not saying that we'll be doing a Dragon Age a year (chuckles), but I don't think we'll go away for five years again.

GTA players:

GS: How does this spot you're in right now compare to, when you first started Dragon Age, where you thought you might end up after a second game in the series? Are you largely where you expected to be?
ML: For context, our original expectation for this franchise was established when we were working on Jade Empire. That goes back a ways. Where we're at right now is a franchise that has a strong-enough fan base and interest base that we're able to see strong reactions, both positive and negative, to change. To me, what that means is that people are engaged with it and people care. That was always really the goal--to bring a fantasy property to life from nothing and to create a world and a space that makes people intrigued and curious to see more. They're hungry to find out what happens next.
From the roots of where things were at in terms of combat and gameplay to where we are now, I see things as--I wouldn't say a progression--a refinement that takes into account the sensibility of it being 2011 and a number of the fundamental gameplay changes we've seen across all genres. So, the increased speed to me is an understanding that most games now have this level of responsiveness, but the thing we desperately don't want to lose is the idea that Dragon Age has an alchemy that makes it special. It has party members. It has banter. It has equipping stuff--some of those amazing, classic RPG mechanics that I loved since playing Wasteland or the original Bard's Tale. We wanted to make RPGs, especially fantasy RPGs, accessible, cool, and interesting to people who have been playing RPGs for the last seven years and not realizing that every time they ate food or went for a long run in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, they were essentially grinding constitution.
To me, that represents a huge audience that may have disregarded RPGs, especially fantasy, as being too hardcore or too confusing. And making certain changes to make the game palatable without ripping out the mechanics that make RPGs so fascinating to a stats guy or what have you. It keeps this genre evolving into something that's fresh and not stagnating.

GTA again:

IGN: Do you think attitudes are changing about RPGs? It's like Blue Dragon, which is a very traditional Japanese RPG but it's pretty much been panned in the West.

Greg Zeschuk: People's tastes are changing now. For example, we're currently having a debate in the office about whether San Andreas is an RPG - which is a fun discussion. I think that it's actually similar to Mass Effect but we're coming at the same core experience from very different directions.

IGN: What do you think about GTA IV, from what you've seen or heard?

Greg Zeschuk: I saw one trailer and the character was interacting in a way that looks quite a lot like Mass Effect. Rockstar is trying to create and action game, whereas as we are creating an action RPG. Somewhere in the middle is the holy grail and I think that all developers are trying to find it.

ZAM: You've been here for a long time then, and you've seen the evolution of BioWare as a game development company. BioWare does have a significant 'style' from a game play perspective. How would you characterize this evolution? More specifically, your flagship games these days are Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 - two very fast-paced RPG games. If you've looked at previous games like Neverwinter Nights or Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, you can certainly see the difference in speed and 'action' potential. Are you happy with this shift to faster paced game play?

Mark Darrah: I think I am happy with it. BioWare is known for making RPGs, but what we're really trying to make are interactive narratives. At the moment, the interactive narrative is associated with RPGs, but I don't think it has to be. So we've moved, in some cases, to more accessible game play, in the case of Mass Effect, or we've streamlined certain processes and experiences in other cases. So it's not that we're dumbing down our games, we're simply making our stories more accessible to as many people as possible.

Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1F34rY311SSFvduV967CHmE08kRG9avRmpNL1b1wWGec

 

[Sir Garbageman]

-Co-op is extremely likely.

Thanks for putting this together but your average "hardcore" RPG fan might as well stop reading right there.

 

[X-Frame]

So Co-Op I assume you and 3 other people will play the story together?

How would that work with traveling around for like shops and stuff, everyone has to go together all the time?

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

So Co-Op I assume you and 3 other people will play the story together?

How would that work with traveling around for like shops and stuff, everyone has to go together all the time?

You know how it will work?

No shops.

Or something equally ridiculous. Bioware will find a way to fail.

 

[Nirolak]

Also I noticed in one of those interviews.

ZAM: You've been here for a long time then, and you've seen the evolution of BioWare as a game development company. BioWare does have a significant 'style' from a game play perspective. How would you characterize this evolution? More specifically, your flagship games these days are Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 - two very fast-paced RPG games. If you've looked at previous games like Neverwinter Nights or Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, you can certainly see the difference in speed and 'action' potential. Are you happy with this shift to faster paced game play?

Mark Darrah: I think I am happy with it. BioWare is known for making RPGs, but what we're really trying to make are interactive narratives. At the moment, the interactive narrative is associated with RPGs, but I don't think it has to be. So we've moved, in some cases, to more accessible game play, in the case of Mass Effect, or we've streamlined certain processes and experiences in other cases. So it's not that we're dumbing down our games, we're simply making our stories more accessible to as many people as possible.

Source: http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=24559&storypage=3

 

[Deadly]

Coop? Ehh.. I don't know... Removal of skills? That totally sucks. I loved using persuasion/intimidate/diplomacy and the likes but it was barely in the 2nd game so I'm not surprised it's getting the axe.

Is it me or are the future games really sounding more like Champions of Norrath type of game?

 

[Psi]

-They’re ultimately trying to make something that gets GTA players to try fantasy RPGs.

This just seems like one massive failure in the making to me. For some reason I picture them trying to get a gang member to play DnD with a bunch of nerds.

 

[Patryn]

So Co-Op I assume you and 3 other people will play the story together?

How would that work with traveling around for like shops and stuff, everyone has to go together all the time?

Guessing they'll be taking heavy cues from how The Old Republic handles things.

 

[Nirolak]

Coop? Ehh.. I don't know... Removal of skills? That totally sucks. I loved using persuasion/intimidate/diplomacy and the likes but it was barely in the 2nd game so I'm not surprised it's getting the axe.

Is it me or are the future games really sounding more like Champions of Norrath type of game?

Sorry, I went back and rephrased that.

The overall thing they said was basically "it's not going to become anymore existent than it was in Dragon Age 2".

 

[Tomat]

Thanks for putting this together but your average "hardcore" RPG fan might as well stop reading right there.

I'm not even a hardcore RPG fan, but I really don't want any multiplayer in Mass Effect or Dragon Age...

 

[X-Frame]

You know how it will work?

No shops.

Or something equally ridiculous. Bioware will find a way to fail.

Yeah, it seems a lot of the non-fighting/non-dialogue portions of the game will have to be removed or "streamlined" in order to make the game not boring as hell for other party members.

Or maybe players will be able to separate during non-quests and then meet back up again? Would make sense ..

 

[WanderingWind]

This just seems like one massive failure in the making to me. For some reason I picture them trying to get a gang member to play DnD with a bunch of nerds.

Not to mention that GTA3 was just Daggerfall in a New York City clone + guns. Now, they're trying to get GTA fans to play fantasy games. Why cater to them, again? Why not the Madden crowd, or the Facebook-only crowd? Both of those segments are much more successful than GTA.

It's so goddamn stupid that it actually makes me a little angry. Why the stubborn absolute refusal to listen to fans, doublespeak over the truth and purposely lie to their customers? I don't understand how they believe this is going to lead to anything but decreased interest in their brand, and resentment from consumers who would otherwise be purchasing BioWare games long after their arbitrarily-defined new demographic has moved the fuck on.

Either Laidlaw has his superiors completely fooled as to the reality of what he's doing, or he's just a mouthpiece for the usual out-of-touch EA element that ruined so many good studios, destroyed profitable brands left and right and has milked franchises past their sell-by date without supporting anything new to fill the void. It's slash-and-burn game development and it does not work in a medium that is so saturated with alternative products.

Bah. Fucking rookies, one and goddamn all.

 

[megalowho]

Close to finishing and I just want it to fucking end. Game gets even worse and more tiresome as it goes along.

Really disheartening to read these interview comments from Mike Laidlaw acting like this is the pinnacle of some vision, it's a passable rush job that barely gets by on the strength of it's fiction. And I don't even represent the PC centric, Infinity engine loving audience that they seem to think all criticism stems from. I wasn't fawning over Origins and pissed about change, that game had plenty of problems unto itself. I seriously hope internally they understand what went wrong here, despite whatever is said publicly.

Oh, and my Call of Duty/Halo loving friends? They haven't even heard of this game, none of them are playing it. Good luck trying to wrangle that beast, BioWare.

 

[Nirolak]

Why cater to them, again? Why not the Madden crowd, or the Facebook-only crowd? Both of those segments are much more successful than GTA.

Hai: http://www.ea.com/dragon-age-legends

They even managed to get Soren Johnson (lead designer of Civilization IV) to make it, leading Civ to take a quality hit in the process.

It's very impressive sabotage. >_>

 

[WanderingWind]

Hai: http://www.ea.com/dragon-age-legends

They even managed to get Soren Johnson (lead designer of Civilization IV) to make it, leading Civ to take a quality hit in the process.

It's very impressive sabotage. >_>

Yeah, I knew about that. It wasn't anything above a marketing tool for DA2. It wasn't a product in-and-of itself.

 

[Nirolak]

Yeah, I knew about that. It wasn't anything above a marketing tool for DA2. It wasn't a product in-and-of itself.

I wish! If that was the case, the horrendous quality would be far less embarrassing.

But no, they're taking this game seriously, which is why it's not even launching until after DA2 is out. ._.

Either Laidlaw has his superiors completely fooled as to the reality of what he's doing, or he's just a mouthpiece for the usual out-of-touch EA element that ruined so many good studios, destroyed profitable brands left and right and has milked franchises past their sell-by date without supporting anything new to fill the void. It's slash-and-burn game development and it does not work in a medium that is so saturated with alternative products.

Also on this note, if you go to the second to last quote in the DA3 post, that interview is from September 2007, which is before EA bought BioWare.

The GTA direction, fascinatingly enough, actually came straight from Ray and Greg.

Brent Knowles actually went and noted other directions planned by Ray and Greg prior to EA in the comments section of his blog as well.

Gerbz,

Hi. Thanks for stopping by.

I was not with EA long enough to really say what their influence might be but some points:

1. BioWare is a strong studio with very strong leadership. I half expect Ray and Greg to take over EA one day
2. There is probably pressure from EA to release games faster and have DLC but these were directions BioWare was taking/wanting to take before EA
3. As for the merchant thing I'm not sure I understand as I haven't played ME2 or DA2 but if you can't talk to merchants that might simply have been to save a bit of dialog and VO recording costs.

Take care,

Brent

Source: http://blog.brentknowles.com/2010/08/15/bioware-brent-year-10-fall-2008-summer-2009/

I think a lot of people forget that John Riccitiello (EA's current CEO) was actually running Elevation Partners before he went to EA (the company that owned BioWare) and that Ray and Greg were not only large parts of steering that company, but also are actually large parts of steering EA's modern direction. BioWare was even pioneering a lot of what modern DLC is with Neverwinter Night's buyable mini-campaigns, and Ray is surprisingly close to being a top executive across all of EA at this point.

While it is a lot of fun to make fun of EA, I think it's always pertinent to remember that a lot of the company's top management is essentially BioWare's management at this point, and that perhaps, just perhaps, the "boogey man" is best found in the BioWare's mirror.

Edit:

To add to this, here's an interesting article about Greg and Ray's DICE speech.

BioWare's Greg Zeschuk told the DICE Summit in Las Vegas this week that in order to grow the company, he and co-founder Ray Muzyka bet the business on a number of big deals.

It was necessary to take these big risks in order to expand into the market-leading role-playing game maker it is today, said Zeschuk, suggesting other companies should be entrepreneurial and take calculated risks.

"Stay entrepreneurial," he said. "Obviously in the past that's where we came from. We started our own company and it grew to where it is today. We've always been conscious of trying to strive for opportunities and growth.

"You have to be willing to take risks," he continued. "Certainly on an entrepreneurial basis there were times when we bet the company. Over the years we paid for the entire Neverwinter Nights game ourselves. If it didn't work we probably would have crashed and burned, we came very, very close.

"We actually bet the company when we joined Elevation Partners and when we joined EA. These are all calculated bets that we made to try and get us to be more successful," he added.

Last night at the AIAS Interactive Entertainment Awards the two were inducted into the Hall of Fame, while Xbox 360 RPG Mass Effect 2 bagged a series of awards included the coveted Game of the Year.

Although the videogame market is changing rapidly it's also producing new avenues to diversify and find a successful niche, according to Zeschuk.

"There were points when we thought we have to do this, to take action and make that bet. You've got to be aggressive. Today's a time of great disruption but it's also a time to make opportunity."

Source: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...t-the-company-multiple-times-in-order-to-grow

I have to head out for a few hours though so I apologize if I don't respond quickly.

 

[Almighty]

Thanks for posting all of that Nirolak I found it very interesting.

Unfortunately I also found it very disheartening. I was thinking that a lot of these design decisions were being forced on them by EA, but it seems that this is actually coming from within Bioware itself.

It seems now that I will have to look even more toward smaller developers for my RPG fix. As it looks like Bioware's long term plans are to create RPGs for a different type of gamer then myself.

 

[mrpeabody]

Origin's slogan back in the day was "We Create Worlds." That was Bioware to me. Their games sucked you into an alternate universe that was rich and full as a place, and also as a gaming experience. Now you get neither: an ill-explained story in a cardboard world, told between bouts of combat you can play on autopilot. Then you read these interviews where they pat themselves on the back for a job well done, and you start to wonder about the future.

I'm done with Bioware's hype machine and I'm done with considering them a dependable high-quality developer.

 

[X-Frame]

So at the beginning of Act 3, at the Hawke Estate and wondering if anyone picked this up when talking to Sandal ...

Spoiler

When Sandal says that the old lady is scary, and Bodahn says Sandal claims to see someone at his bed, I feel it's pretty obvious the old lady is Flemeth. Sandal seems to be the first dwarven Mage, maybe because of something Flemeth did? Maybe he is her son? So it would make sense that Flemeth was keeping an eye on him ..

What do you all think?

 

[gdt]

So at the beginning of Act 3, at the Hawke Estate and wondering if anyone picked this up when talking to Sandal ...

Spoiler

When Sandal says that the old lady is scary, and Bodahn says Sandal claims to see someone at his bed, I feel it's pretty obvious the old lady is Flemeth. Sandal seems to be the first dwarven Mage, maybe because of something Flemeth did? Maybe he is her son? So it would make sense that Flemeth was keeping an eye on him ..

What do you all think?

Nah.



He could be a mage though.....

Never even thought about that...

 

[HadesGigas]

Nah.



He could be a mage though.....

Never even thought about that...

The in-game theory on Sandal is that his extreme exposure to lyrium in the deep roads gives him his weird powers and ...personality. Wildest fan theory would be that he is the rebirth of an old god much like Morrigan's dark ritual child.

 

[Vamphuntr]

List of what to expect for DAIII

Congratulations! You've made me lose what was left of my faith in Bioware.

 

[gdt]

I always just thought Sandal was retarded. Like a savant or something. Maybe people are just reading too much into it.

Those moments where he displays alot of strength just seem to be a goof. Well, that's how I interpreted them at the time.

 

[Duki]

yeah p sure its just jokes

no way it becomes an important plot point

 

[ntropy]

yeah p sure its just jokes

no way it becomes an important plot point

that's a shame. Sandal is much more interesting than political rabble.

 

[subversus]

It's kind of funny to see so many people listing DA2 or ME2 as the downfall of Bioware when their biggest downhill jump has always been from Baldur's Gate 2 to KOTOR. It's also funny how so many people see Dragon Age Origins as some kind of return to PC-RPG form when it's no more in-depth than KOTOR.

Even so, I still really like KOTOR and Mass Effect 2 in spite of everything while Dragon Age 2 is inexcusable. A few more like this and it's a Lucasarts-class downfall.

That's stupid, KOTOR never had this much choice in quests and other stuff. Also it had the worst Bioware writing. Why the game is so loved is beyond me, but it's ok. Mass Effect was a huge step forward comparing to KOTOR.

 

[alphaNoid]

Just installed the game and am enjoying the changes so far. We'll see how I feel by the end.

 

[Psi]

That's stupid, KOTOR never had this much choice in quests and other stuff. Also it had the worst Bioware writing. Why the game is so loved is beyond me, but it's ok. Mass Effect was a huge step forward comparing to KOTOR.

People liked KOTOR so much because 1: It's Star Wars and 2: the plot twist. Take either one of those away and it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I was actually really disappointed they reused Sandal and basically every joke involving him in DA2.

 

[subversus]

What I find amusing is that if we try to judge their games solely as interactive stories they're done poor in this case. I play Bioware games because they're games first and stories second. I mean it's a game so it's good that it's set in cozy generic world with heroes and shit, I like that, because it gives me break from usual stuff I'm into. And I would accept streamlining and dumbfication if:

1)they'd write decent stuff which could stand on its own.
2)they'd drastically improve graphics and setpieces.
3)they'd drastically improve action.

 

[hateradio]

Yeah, here's his review for Origins:

http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=195

I read this now and feel like everything he mentions in this article no longer exists, which is why I continue to call this game (DAII) Dragon Age Lite.

However, it reminded me why I loved DAO.

Exhibit #1

Can't overcome your dislike of the nature-dwelling, freedom-loving elves? Replace them with werewolves (by convincing the werewolves to wipe out the elves). Think that nothing good comes from meddling with magic? Let the Circle die in the tower and tell the templars to imprison the rest. Or, if you're a blood mage practicing the forbidden art, use this opportunity to wipe out both the templars and the Circle mages while they're weakened. A goal as flexible and generic as "gather allies" works perfectly with this design by encouraging you to understand your potential options, giving you the appropriate choices, and generating the logical outcomes and consequences.

I suppose they somewhat did this in Act 3? But I'm barely starting it. However, I don't think there are any options that make this game interesting.

Exhibit #2

So, at every stage of this questline we see opportunity for choices with consequences, choices tied both to character skills and previous choices within the game (interconnected quests are a trademark of design excellence). The evil options are presented well, you aren't simply being evil for the sake of kicking sand in people's faces, you are given choices which appeal to opportunism and self-interest, not simple bullying.

This was completely stripped. If you play as the ass, you do it simply because you're a jerk. There's no real interesting or compelling reason for scornful options. If you're a mediator, everything goes to hell anyway.

 

[TigerUppercut]

I was actually really disappointed they reused Sandal and basically every joke involving him in DA2.

Reusing the dead darkspawn joke wasn't even the worst part. They just come right out and explain exactly what happens.

 

[subversus]

Reusing the dead darkspawn joke wasn't even the worst part. They just come right out and explain exactly what happens.

oh no....

 

[WanderingWind]

People liked KOTOR so much because 1: It's Star Wars and 2: the plot twist. Take either one of those away and it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable.

Well, it was also the first BioWare RPG on a console. Like DA:O a lot of what people loved about the game was the promise it showed. A promise largely unfulfilled by a half-finished sequel and a MMO that I personally hope crashes and burns (yes, I'm bitter like that). Plus, for a X-Box 1 limited RPG it did a lot of things right.

Yes, Star Wars licensed music and locations propelled it into a whole different stratosphere, but the game stands on it's own merits.

@ Nirolak - That hardly changes anything. At some point, when - like you said - the employees meld together, shift around and basically become one unit, it's easy to see where the heaviest influence came from based entirely on the abrupt change of projects and direction they took after being acquired.

After Mass Effect - which had to have been in some stage of already being created by that time - and the Sonic game, really ME2 was the first game that would have shown any EA influence, if there was any to be found. There was. Now, remember, while DA:O came out before ME2 it was in development a long, long time. So, DA2 showing even more of what was present in ME2 and the continued refusal to attempt to appeal to every audience at the cost of everything else, is classic EA.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Quick question. Should I import my Origins save or my Awakenings save that imported my Origins save?

Everyone seems to ignore you due amidst all the heated discussions, hahaha, so let me answer this one for you:

Import your awakening save. It doesn't have any major influence outside small references here and there, but it's pretty neat for example how some people in Kirkwall acknowledged the feats my Fereldan hero accomplished in DA:O and Awakenings.

 

[Alucrid]

Everyone seems to ignore you due amidst all the heated discussions, hahaha, so let me answer this one for you:

Import your awakening save. It doesn't have any major influence outside small references here and there, but it's pretty neat for example how some people in Kirkwall acknowledged the feats my Fereldan hero accomplished in DA:O and Awakenings.

Gotcha, thanks. Wasn't sure how well the double imported decisions would work.

 

[hateradio]

After Mass Effect - which had to have been in some stage of already being created by that time - and the Sonic game, really ME2 was the first game that would have shown any EA influence, if there was any to be found. There was. Now, remember, while DA:O came out before ME2 it was in development a long, long time. So, DA2 showing even more of what was present in ME2 and the continued refusal to attempt to appeal to every audience at the cost of everything else, is classic EA.

It seems that DAO sneaked through the developmentdegradation process. ME2's changes were different, but because ME lacked traditional RPG elements it is not as drastic as DAO to DAII. Having an already-established main character who saves a space port and who is the same person in the sequel, helped the narrative's transition because we know Shepard. ME is a trilogy, and the changes were acceptable; everything was pretty similar. Sadly, whoever thought Hawke's story intriguing, was truly misguided. There's nothing that sparks our interest about The Champion of Kirkwal.

Spoiler

So he killed a handful of Quinari that were in the city because of a stolen item.

Great, that's our champ.

We didn't know Hawke, and getting to know him was difficult. We know more about his companions than we do, him. The 10-year span is also rushed and beyond a few family-related matters, the focus is never actually on Hawke himself. The wheel may make "your" Hawke either a joker, a psychopath, or someone short of being a sycophant. But who is he? What makes him tick? "Want a sandwich?" . . . Okay?

They weren't painting a detailed picture for us about the Origins Grey Warden. He (or she) is a person who grows and matures though the dawn and eve of the blight. You help decide what happens in between.

BioWare clearly tried to rest on its laurels with its captivating stories. I'm actually saddened that some of these characters, some of whom I like, are in such a terrible game. They forgot that we are to actually play this, and not just sit back and watch dialogue for a few minutes after hours of trivial, unoriginal, repetitive battles and environments -- all three of them!

I know the last argument can be made about other games, maybe even about DAO. However, in that game there is exploration and wonder -- sorry if that sounds lame. DA2 simply lacks awe-inducing character, this being its greatest fault.

 

[IoCaster]

I didn't have any intent or interest in playing this game, but I'm an RPG whore and $20 is a compelling incentive. Unfortunately, it's worse than I had expected and the lack of an overhead tactical view has forced me to give up on nightmare for the sake of my sanity.

And then there's stuff like this...

Gamlen - This is your uncle's room in your Act-1 home base. Here it is complete with a debtors note and moldy wheel of cheese.

Petrice - This is in the secret HQ that Sister Petrice is using for her base of operations in Act-1. The trap door leads to the super secret tunnel that you use to escort the Qunari mage out of the city.

How pressed for time does a dev get that they simply plant a trapdoor in an existing room and call it a day? They couldn't even be bothered to get rid of the cheese.

Oh well, at least the combat is...

Another Wave!!

...yeah, nevermind. *sigh*

 

[Nose Master]

I need to pick this up again. Got about 25ish hours in, Act II... lost interest. Whoever said it was like an MMO was pretty spot on. Bleh.