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[Moofers]

If a game wants to have both sarcastic dialog and some small degree of morality (or at least the option to be an asshole), without the red fist icons and so forth, you will guess wrong. This happened in DA:O. There is no way to tell the difference between a comment intended to be evil, and one intended to be sarcastic. If you do an asshole playthrough, you will find yourself on multiple occasions choosing an evil sounding piece of dialog only to have the NPC commend you on your funny joke.

I guess those icons could be both in a wheel or a word for word system, so I don't care too much one way or the other. I will say that I really enjoyed Alpha Protocols dialog system which often provided you even less information that the ME wheel did. I don't think a wheel automatically makes for a bad dialog system.

Well put. People need to get over the whole "the wheel sucks!" thing. The wheel is not the problem.

 

[webrunner]

It comes down to this:

do you want to know exactly what words your character will say

or

do you want to know exactly what tone your character will say those words in.


Both have their upsides and downsides. DA:O had so many situations where you wanted to say something jokey/flirty but it was actually the jerk dialog, and vice versa. Like, half of Alistair's tree was like this because joking with him was the way to flirt.

Let's say you have a dialog that says:

"Nice job."

Are you being sarcastic? complementary? flirty? stoic?

Is that better or worse then a wheel with an option:

>:| "Be Sarcastic"

(oh, and to the person that hearing your character is not important in this genre.. can i ask what is more important to a role playing game than feedback on the role you end up playing?)

(also oh, and regarding the whole thing about good vs asshole options, at least DA2 has that thing where you can further your relationship with someone by being mean- instead of it being NICE = GOOD EVIL = BAD all the time, you have a bit of a choice, for once)

 

[Shake Appeal]

Bioware games have bad morality systems, news at 11. That's nothing to do with the wheel as an input device.

It does. At least when I am presented with a heap of jumbled dialogue options, I have to read them and consider what they intend and what consequences they will have (and if the intention is unclear, that's often symptomatic of bad writing more than a flawed system) before I act.

In Mass Effect 2, if you want to be the good character, you follow this script.

1. If a blue option is available, select it.
2. If no blue option is available, select options on the left side of the wheel until none remain.
3. Now select the top right option.
4. Repeat.

You could play the game in Urdu and this method would work for all but those few dramatic moments when the game gives you just two options, on the left and right of the wheel; but these are almost invariably neutral choices about e.g. which character to side with or which to sacrifice, and have no 'moral' component to 'choose'.

("Asshole" playthrough? Replace 'blue' with 'red' and top with 'bottom'.)

 

[Lostconfused]

If a game wants to have both sarcastic dialog and some small degree of morality (or at least the option to be an asshole), without the red fist icons and so forth, you will guess wrong. This happened in DA:O. There is no way to tell the difference between a comment intended to be evil, and one intended to be sarcastic. If you do an asshole playthrough, you will find yourself on multiple occasions choosing an evil sounding piece of dialog only to have the NPC commend you on your funny joke.

I never play a character thats an asshole to everyone just for the sake of it so I guess I never ran into this problem. I should give it a shot sometime just so I can experience the confusion for my self.

I don't think that's a difference; it's not as though you get to actually choose your dialogue. If you want to choose the 'nice' option, you're still going to be saying the exact same thing whether you select that phrase word-for-word or pick 'nice' and then hear that phrase spoken aloud. You don't get to pick, "Well, I'd like to be a jerk here, but I'd rather insult his shoes instead of his hair." You're stuck with whatever the game gives you, one way or another.

It is a difference, it might not be a huge difference but its enough. In Origins it felt like I was picking the characters dialog, yes the options were limited but there was some feeling of control. I am going to have to approach DA2 in the same way I approached Mass Effect, which is I have almost no control over the character and just passively experience whatever dialog is going to happen on screen. In The Witcher there was a named character and dialog trees and it played out completely differently from DA or ME, where it felt that you were acting the Role of Geralt instead of just passively experienceing it or playing whatever character you made up.

It comes down to this:

do you want to know exactly what words your character will say

or

do you want to know exactly what tone a character will say those words in.

Thats the difference the way I see it. But it fits DA2 in the sense that Hawke isn't my character but some character that Bioware wrote and I just get to follow along one of two or three choose your own adventure paths.

 

[Assemble!]

Are there really no reviews yet? (other than the pcgamer one)

 

[chris-013]

Spoiler Hawke family :

Spoiler

Shit the mother, leandra, die too. She is killed by the serial killer. :/ My hawke is now alone carver, bethany and leandra are dead !

 

[Coxswain]

In Mass Effect 2, if you want to be the good character, you follow this script.

You're still missing the point. There's nothing wrong with "I want to be the [x] guy. The top-right option will always be [y]." The problem is when x and y are the same variable, and/or they tie into the gameplay mechanics in such a way that it only makes sense to play one of two ways.

Taking Mass Effect and a very simple example, if they swapped it out so that Paragon strictly referred to playing by the book, every time, and Renegade was always eschewing the rules, that would become "I want to be the [good] guy. The top-right option will always be [lawful]." The rules are just as simple in terms of what the wheel will get you; the end goal however is no more than (maybe) loosely coupled to it. Mass Effect also has problems with reinforcement; you need Paragon points to pick the Paragon options to get the Paragon points to unlock more of the Paragon options which you pick to [...]. That's a problem with the underlying morality mechanics, not the dialogue wheel. The issues are completely separable.

It is a difference, it might not be a huge difference but its enough. In Origins it felt like I was picking the characters dialog, yes the options were limited but there was some feeling of control. I am going to have to approach DA2 in the same way I approached Mass Effect, which is I have almost no control over the character and just passively experience whatever dialog is going to happen on screen. In The Witcher there was a named character and dialog trees and it played out completely differently from DA or ME, where it felt that you were acting the Role of Geralt instead of just passively experienceing it or playing whatever character you made up.

A difference in perception, sure, but not perception of something that is really open to subjective interpretation. You don't choose your own dialogue, full stop. That's just factual. No matter how they do it, you're choosing variations on a character that Bioware(or CDProjekt, or Obsidian, or whoever) wrote. That doesn't really change based on how you feel about it.

 

[Lostconfused]

A difference in perception, sure, but not perception of something that is really open to subjective interpretation. You don't choose your own dialogue, full stop. That's just factual. No matter how they do it, you're choosing variations on a character that Bioware(or CDProjekt, or Obsidian, or whoever) wrote. That doesn't really change based on how you feel about it.

Perception is everything. I don't understand what your point is.

You're still missing the point. There's nothing wrong with "I want to be the [x] guy. The top-right option will always be [y]." The problem is when x and y are the same variable, and/or they tie into the gameplay mechanics in such a way that it only makes sense to play one of two ways.

That's a problem with the underlying morality mechanics, not the dialogue wheel. The issues are completely separable.

Its a problem when it comes to complexity of the game mechanic that is the dialog tree. His entire point was that he wants to have to think about the things that the character is saying, are they really good or evil? What kind of deeper implications they might have?

 

[Detox]

It does. At least when I am presented with a heap of jumbled dialogue options, I have to read them and consider what they intend and what consequences they will have (and if the intention is unclear, that's often symptomatic of bad writing more than a flawed system) before I act.

In Mass Effect 2, if you want to be the good character, you follow this script.

1. If a blue option is available, select it.
2. If no blue option is available, select options on the left side of the wheel until none remain.
3. Now select the top right option.
4. Repeat.

You could play the game in Urdu and this method would work for all but those few dramatic moments when the game gives you just two options, on the left and right of the wheel; but these are almost invariably neutral choices about e.g. which character to side with or which to sacrifice, and have no 'moral' component to 'choose'.

("Asshole" playthrough? Replace 'blue' with 'red' and top with 'bottom'.)

Nice summary. I'm playing through Alpha Protocol and they nailed the dialogue options in that game, I can't believe I neglected it because of the reviews. Bioware really need to step their game up in terms dialogue options and the way they're selected. The time element in Alpha Protocol ensures the pace is always kept up and the conversation doesn't become stilted. I hope that Bioware have a new conversation system for Mass Effect 3.
Although it's slightly different I'm also interested in how LA Noire handles the interrogations.

 

[Lostconfused]

Bioware really need to step their game up in terms dialogue options and the way they're selected. The time element in Alpha Protocol ensures the pace is always kept up and the conversation doesn't become stilted. I hope that Bioware have a new conversation system for Mass Effect 3.

The Alpha Protocol dialog system probably would not work in Bioware games. Bioware already implemented a timed element with renegade/paragon actions. I highly doubt that they would make an entirely new conversation system when the current one is working for them so well.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Nice summary. I'm playing through Alpha Protocol and they nailed the dialogue options in that game, I can't believe I neglected it because of the reviews. Bioware really need to step their game up in terms dialogue options and the way they're selected. The time element in Alpha Protocol ensures the pace is always kept up and the conversation doesn't become stilted. I hope that Bioware have a new conversation system for Mass Effect 3.
Although it's slightly different I'm also interested in how LA Noire handles the interrogations.

I love AP too but there are a few instances where it says something like "Inquire" and I'm like "ok it'll probably ask her a question" and then the character does something completely unexpected and douchey to hurt my reputation, thankfully that doesn't happen a lot but when it does it's kind of annoying

It would be nice if the game gave you some indication of how dialog choices will affect your relationship since that's what you do in your head in real life, unless you have aspergurers or something

 

[Truant]

And so, Bioware invented the BROPG.

 

[epmode]

Nah, the original is a pretty good game. DAO is the last game of its kind, and will probably never see a game like it for quite some time. Good CRPGS are being made, but they are nothing like Baldurs Gate. B

Dragon Age Origins isn't anything like Baldur's Gate either. It's practically a KOTOR sequel with a less interesting world.

Maybe I'll buy this one at $20 but I doubt it.

 

[webrunner]

That's always been the way hasn't it?

Bioware makes great characters
Obsidian makes great writing
Bethesda makes great atmosphere

 

[Shake Appeal]

I don't really like Alpha Protocol's system either, but it suits the nature of most conversations in that game (businesslike, barked thriller-y shit), and at least it clarifies the conversational approach you are going to take at a given moment, and better yet makes it pointless to make game-y decisions. I say 'pointless' because it showers you with rewards no matter what you do ("you were consistent in your dialogue choices? have a perk! you were inconsistent? have another perk!"), and because you have to make genuine choices between allies and factions (based, perhaps, on your own good sense, intuition, and personal politics!) that have knock-on consequences, and can't be taken back.

Some of the most disappointing moments in Mass Effect 2 are when it feints to set up a genuine choice with irrevocable consequences, like choosing between Miranda and Jack, but then gives you a "blue option!" escape hatch that remedies the situation provided you are not hapless at the game.

Alpha Protocol allows and encourages you to figure out and remember your interlocutors' responses to different approaches, but also to make mistakes about same, to gauge someone's reaction incorrectly ... and then it carries on without giving you free get-outs. Whereas the only time you can get something 'wrong' in a Mass Effect 2 conversation is if you choose (against good game theory) to mix and match your approach (and this would be all the more bizarre because the writing is so wildly polarized toward PARAGON and ASSHOLE), or if you fail to pay attention to the many, many 'helpful' prompts.

That is, the only time Mass Effect 2's conversations break down are when the player dares not to stick to the (epic! operatic! 10/10!) script.

I'm pretty sure the greatest nuisance Bioware have to deal with (besides finding new swimming pools for all their money) is the player who doesn't press the blue option when asked to; that guy is really getting in the way of their cinematic ambition. But they're slowly finding ways to neuter him.

 

[Lostconfused]

Dragon Age Origins isn't anything like Baldur's Gate either. It's practically a KOTOR sequel with a less interesting world.

Maybe I'll buy this one at $20 but I doubt it.

KOTOR is more of an RPG than any game Bioware has made since. If only by the virtue of using a D20 rule set.

I'm pretty sure the greatest nuisance Bioware have to deal with (besides finding new swimming pools for all their money) is the player who doesn't press the blue option when asked to; that guy is really getting in the way of their cinematic ambition. But they're slowly finding ways to neuter him.

Why do you have to insult me like this? I almost maxed out both Paragon and Renegade ratings in ME2, but some of the final decisions ended up being Paragon because I tend to prefer playing the "good" option.

 

[WanderingWind]

And so, Bioware invented the BROPG.

I'm a little ashamed to admit that I spent a good 5-10 seconds trying to decipher the what the B, R and O stood for. As my penance, I will assist you in coining this phrase.

 

[Einbroch]

I love the fact that there's no karma system in this game. I can be sympathetic when I want, a douche when I want, and joking when I want.

PS: "Aggressive" isn't bad. In fact, when the situation calls for it, Aggressive can actually be the nicest thing you can say. Someone really upset about something? You can be nice and offer them condolences or you can tell them to snap the hell out of it and get over themselves. Sometimes...gasp...they actually appreciate that.

 

[dark10x]

That's always been the way hasn't it?

Bioware makes great characters
Obsidian makes great writing
Bethesda makes great atmosphere

Well, I'd argue that the atmosphere in Mass Effect beats out anything Besthesda has done (but they do a good job as well).

 

[Stallion Free]

Well, I'd argue that the atmosphere in Mass Effect beats out anything Besthesda has done (but they do a good job as well).

Damn, that is a really tough call. Fallout 3 had some terrific atmosphere, but Mass Effect was goddamn magical at times with some of those planets.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I almost maxed out both Paragon and Renegade ratings in ME2, but some of the final decisions ended up being Paragon because I tend to prefer playing the "good" option.

I don't understand... how could you have done this? You weren't meant to choose so freely... and now you think to game our mechanics? How dare you, insect? How dare you interrupt Bioware's ascendance? You are nothing. A wretched bag of flesh... what are you, compared to the magnificence of our 40-hour quasi-interactive machinima?

 

[webrunner]

I don't understand... how could you have done this? You weren't meant to choose so freely... and now you think to game our mechanics? How dare you, insect? How dare you interrupt Bioware's ascendance? You are nothing. A wretched bag of flesh... what are you, compared to the magnificence of our 40-hour quasi-interactive machinima?

Is it wrong I imagined that in SHODAN's voice?

 

[Shake Appeal]

Is it wrong I imagined that in SHODAN's voice?

No.

 

[water_wendi]

i think one of the worst things to happen to Bioware games was the fawning over the Lightside/Darkside system of KotOR. It made sense there but its been shoehorned into practically everything of theirs since. Compare those binary systems to how things worked Baldurs Gate. The loss of depth is staggering.

 

[Coxswain]

Perception is everything. I don't understand what your point is.

No, some things are true or untrue whether you perceive it or not. "I feel like I'm choosing my own dialogue" is an alright thing to say; "I am choosing my own dialogue" is factually incorrect.

Personally I think any attempt on the part of the designers to improve their design, or any attempt on the part of players to have an informed discussion about the design, is going to be greatly hampered until everybody is properly seeing through the smoke and mirrors, which is why I usually insist on these distinctions.

Its a problem when it comes to complexity of the game mechanic that is the dialog tree. His entire point was that he wants to have to think about the things that the character is saying, are they really good or evil? What kind of deeper implications they might have?

And again, that's a problem with the "y" variable being equal to "good", that's a problem with good versus evil being the sole conflict to be resolved, and that's a problem with the game's mechanics biasing the player toward sticking with a single alignment the entire time through (which I don't think is strictly true in the case of Mass Effect, but in a lot of cases it definitely can be).

It has nothing to do with the dialogue wheel as a mechanic. A dialogue wheel can be set up just as systematically as it is now while retaining moral ambiguity, provoking thought, etc. It could easily be done if top versus bottom was Law vs Chaos, it could easily be done if the top option was simply to Agree and the bottom Disagree with whoever you're talking to, etc. In theory, Dragon Age 2's wheel is actually a step forward, as the icons for more nuanced responses can pretty easily be used to differentiate between various levels (and possibly different varieties) of "good", "funny", "bad" responses - though in practice I'm sure it's going to fall flat.

Pinning the blame for Bioware's shoddy handling of morality on the dialogue wheel is as insane as claiming that traditional lists of dialogue options do the same thing, just because the options in DAO pretty much always boiled down to Sickeningly Good, Childishly Evil, and Can't Be Bothered To Find Out What's Going On Here. Clearly there are games that use lists in a more complex and nuanced way; there's nothing inherent about a dialogue wheel that precludes you from doing the same damn thing.

 

[water_wendi]

The biggest problem with the dialogue wheel is you do not know what your character will say. You are given a short description and a color or symbol but you do not know what the dialogue will be. Dialogue trees dont have this problem. ive never had a dialogue tree response where i did not know what i was going to say. Compare to every single time with the dialogue wheel.

 

[InternHertz]

Just saw that zavvi dispatched my PC signature edition this morning. I hope to get it by friday.

I don't really know what all this commotion is about but I really enjoyed DA:O and DA:A as well as the demo for DA2 so I can't wait to dig in deeper!

 

[WanderingWind]

I think the dialogue trees debate is really obscuring the main issue, which is companions will no longer leave if you're an evil bastard. No, now they become "rivals." Which is utterly absurd, in my opinion, from an actual role-playing position. Regardless of the system, the dialogue and other "choices" made are rendered nothing more than an illusion.

EDIT:
InternHertz
Junior Member
(Today, 07:15 AM)
Reply | Quote

Jeez, the plants aren't even trying to be subtle any longer....

 

[Coxswain]

The biggest problem with the dialogue wheel is you do not know what your character will say. You are given a short description and a color or symbol but you do not know what the dialogue will be. Dialogue trees dont have this problem. ive never had a dialogue tree response where i did not know what i was going to say. Compare to every single time with the dialogue wheel.

That was covered about a page ago, but it's still a problem with traditional dialogue trees. In DAO there were a lot of instances where I was apparently saying something completely different from what I thought I was saying, because there's no indication of the tone in which you're meant to be saying them. I thought I was joking around and gently ribbing them; apparently those were meant to be taken as vicious insults. (It works the other way around, as someone mentioned; you think you're being a total evil bastard, and then someone goes, "Ha ha, good one!")
Between Alistair and Oghren alone there were far more times where that happened in DAO than there were times when Shepard did something that surprised me, through both Mass Effect games.

 

[mello]

Stupid question: Would I have had to have played DA:O to understand the story for this?

 

[Sir Garbageman]

Haven't gotten my hands on the game, but from what I've read I think I'll be ok with all the changes they've made from the original. Bioware makes relatively shallow, polished cinematic RPGs. That's their MO and the days of Baldur's Gate 2 are over unfortunately. I've come to accept it.

However, I think I would kill someone to get another RPG like Planescape:

 

[water_wendi]

That was covered about a page ago, but it's still a problem with traditional dialogue trees. In DAO there were a lot of instances where I was apparently saying something completely different from what I thought I was saying, because there's no indication of the tone in which you're meant to be saying them. I thought I was joking around and gently ribbing them; apparently those were meant to be taken as vicious insults. (It works the other way around, as someone mentioned; you think you're being a total evil bastard, and then someone goes, "Ha ha, good one!")
Between Alistair and Oghren alone there were far more times where that happened in DAO than there were times when Shepard did something that surprised me, through both Mass Effect games.

i dont believe this for a second. Not knowing how NPCs will respond does not equal not knowing what you are going to say.

 

[Shake Appeal]

there's nothing inherent about a dialogue wheel that precludes you from doing the same damn thing.

There is.

The dialogue wheel is designed, above all, to make the conversation as fluid and cinematic as possible. It does this by boiling complex thoughts, propositions, intentions, and sentiments into one-or-two word options that can be quickly selected.

But these one-or-two words options are often (indeed, usually) completely unintuitive. So Bioware (and Obsidian, in AP) make them intuitive by stacking the wheel so the same kinds of options are always in the same place. You are no longer selecting thoughts and propositions, you are selecting attitudes (in fact, you are selecting directions with your mouse or thumbstick).

Language, the explicit foundation of human communication, is thus all but done away with; the player learns a system as basic and rote as up/blue means 'good', down/red means 'bad'. They no longer have to engage with the content of what they are saying. In pure ludic terms, in terms of what is advantageous for their character, they no longer even need to understand the language the conversation is happening in.

Yes, the failures here are inextricably tied to Bioware's shoddy handling of morality, and yes, having conventional line-by-line dialogue options would be exactly the same if the good, neutral and evil lines were always in the same order... but in most classic RPGs (and in that paragon of all 'talky' RPGs, Torment), they weren't. And they didn't have to be, because it was expected players would read and choose among them.

...which meant you had to engage with what was being said, think about how you would respond to it from a diverse and variable palette of options, and make each and every one of your conversation choices both contextually and intellectually.

The wheel ensures that you don't. In fact, its very purpose -- to induce quick, fluid, 'cinematic' conversation -- means that Bioware are required to arrange the options conventionally just so they will be intuitive... and this makes the actual content of those options (the actual words and language deployed) all but irrelevant.

 

[WanderingWind]

Stupid question: Would I have had to have played DA:O to understand the story for this?

Yes. But I can spoil the first game for you, if you'd like.

Spoiler

In the magic world of Ferelden, there are evil things that pop up once every so often. When that happens, it's called a "Blight" and the magic infused "Gray Wardens" have to fight them off. You play as one of those Wardens, and you sacrifice either yourself, the King or a Kingslayer to end the Blight and save the world. Roll credits.

 

[Aaron]

Well, I'd argue that the atmosphere in Mass Effect beats out anything Besthesda has done (but they do a good job as well).

Even Morrowind? That is unbridled crazy talk. ME starts well, but only a few hours in you start to hit the limits of what they created, and instead of a world I got the sense of a few sets and a lot of reused and paper thin backdrops. Morrowind had giant insects for transportation, a massive mountain choked with ash. It had islands and underwater caves, strange forts occupied with mysterious cults, and the floating city of Vivec. Mass Effect had the Citadel and the same buildings repeated over and over.

 

[InternHertz]

Jeez, the plants aren't even trying to be subtle any longer....

I know it's a bit off-topic but here goes.
There must be something I didn't quite follow there because I don't understand your point. Is there something wrong with my now 13 years old nickname? ^^;

Stupid question: Would I have had to have played DA:O to understand the story for this?

Nope, This story is quite independent from DA:O, but you may get some cameos and references you won't get unless you played DA:O before.

 

[Coxswain]

i dont believe this for a second. Not knowing how NPCs will respond does not equal not knowing what you are going to say.

Also covered last page. Short version: Absolutely not one fucking thing about the writing in DAO gave me the indication that the writers had the skill or presence of mind to purposely write their characters to schizophrenically like joking around one moment and then get upset about the exact same thing, talking about the exact same subject, three seconds later; the problem is entirely with the game not making it clear what tone your character is meant to be speaking in. Further, even if they did intend to do that, it's a piss-poor design decision in a video game where you lack the ability to pick up on the subtle cues that would, in real life, prevent that sort of misunderstanding.

 

[SenorDingDong]

I think the dialogue trees debate is really obscuring the main issue, which is companions will no longer leave if you're an evil bastard. No, now they become "rivals." Which is utterly absurd, in my opinion, from an actual role-playing position. Regardless of the system, the dialogue and other "choices" made are rendered nothing more than an illusion.

EDIT:
InternHertz
Junior Member
(Today, 07:15 AM)
Reply | Quote

Jeez, the plants aren't even trying to be subtle any longer....

I'm sure I read that there are moments in the game where your actions may lead to party members abandoning or attacking Hawke.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I'm sure I read that there are moments in the game where your actions may lead to party members abandoning or attacking Hawke.

Laidlaw outright stated it yesterday.

It'll probably be a lot harder to lose them though.

 

[Einbroch]

I have seen this "fluid remembrance" thing going on in a few conversations. That's what I'm calling it, I don't know the official term. I'm talking about when the conversation options change when you investigate. It's really cool when it's there. I remember one instance in particular when my part member was feeling sad, but I didn't know why, so the sympathetic response was "Is something wrong?".

I investigated, and found out she felt lonely. The response changed to "We're all lonely sometimes" or something like that. It's a nice, subtle touch that really connects conversation points together.

That said, sometimes it's completely absent. It's like "Oh, let me ask you these four questions then jump right back to what we were talking about before without a segue." Those moments are like Mass Effect moments, but like I said, when these dynamic conversations are in place they drastically improve conversation.

 

[water_wendi]

Also covered last page. Short version: Absolutely not one fucking thing about the writing in DAO gave me the indication that the writers had the skill or presence of mind to purposely write their characters to schizophrenically like joking around one moment and then get upset about the exact same thing, talking about the exact same subject, three seconds later; the problem is entirely with the game not making it clear what tone your character is meant to be speaking in. Further, even if they did intend to do that, it's a piss-poor design decision in a video game where you lack the ability to pick up on the subtle cues that would, in real life, prevent that sort of misunderstanding.

Although i did not play DA1 to completion i played 30-40 hours of it and not once did i run into what you are describing.

edit:
On top of Dragon Age, there hasnt been an instance in any game with dialogue trees where ive run into what you are describing. The only time something like that has happened is when the translation is exceptionally poor (Metalheart: Replicants Rampage for example).

 

[BMX Bandit]

Quick question: Is loot different in this game? Like actual good stuff from drops/treasure chests? one of my beefs with DA:O was I felt like I was never finding anything worth equipping.

 

[WanderingWind]

I'm sure I read that there are moments in the game where your actions may lead to party members abandoning or attacking Hawke.

Nope. This was one of their big "selling" points. No longer would players be confused and frightened as their party members left if treated like shit. Now, they'll just become your rival and stick around following your orders for no particular reason!

 

[Einbroch]

Quick question: Is loot different in this game? Like actual good stuff from drops/treasure chests? one of my beefs with DA:O was I felt like I was never finding anything worth equipping.

I've seen a lot of good armor from chests. Especially boots, gloves, and accessories. Chest armor and weapons? Not so much.

Then again I've only played for 4 hours, with almost no storyline quest advancement.

Nope. This was one of their big "selling" points. No longer would players be confused and frightened as their party members left if treated like shit. Now, they'll just become your rival and stick around following your orders for no particular reason!

To be fair, the four party members I've had have either not cared about how I acted as it fits their character or they owe you their life or have a specific reason to follow you around, no matter how you act.

It's not just "I hate this person but I'm going to stick with them lolol".

 

[BMX Bandit]

I've seen a lot of good armor from chests. Especially boots, gloves, and accessories. Chest armor and weapons? Not so much.

Then again I've only played for 4 hours, with almost no storyline quest advancement.

Ahhh ok. Thanks. Hopefully weapon drops/upgrades show up more soon for you.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Now, they'll just become your rival and stick around following your orders for no particular reason!

If this follows recent Bioware trends, their reasons for joining you in the first place will be slim at best.

 

[mello]

Yes. But I can spoil the first game for you, if you'd like.

Spoiler

In the magic world of Ferelden, there are evil things that pop up once every so often. When that happens, it's called a "Blight" and the magic infused "Gray Wardens" have to fight them off. You play as one of those Wardens, and you sacrifice either yourself, the King or a Kingslayer to end the Blight and save the world. Roll credits.

:lol right, I will pick this up on Friday in that case.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

So we go from this:

To a situation where I could play Mass Effect 3 in another fucking language and still max out my Light Side bar. Sorry, "Open Palm". Or whatever the fuck it is.

To be fair, probably the main reason you go from that many choices to the current amount is production values. It becomes insanely cost prohibitive to create all of those options and then have to have voice over, animation, and cinematography for each one (most of which a player will probably never see) obviously. Until vocaloid technology gets better, don't expect that to change for "AAA" games. Blame the expectations of the current consumer.

 

[Coxswain]

There is.

The dialogue wheel is designed, above all, to make the conversation as fluid and cinematic as possible. It does this by boiling complex thoughts, propositions, intentions, and sentiments into one-or-two word options that can be quickly selected.

But these one-or-two words options are often (indeed, usually) completely unintuitive. So Bioware (and Obsidian, in AP) make them intuitive by stacking the wheel so the same kinds of options are always in the same place. You are no longer selecting thoughts and propositions, you are selecting attitudes (in fact, you are selecting directions with your mouse or thumbstick).

Language, the explicit foundation of human communication, is thus all but done away with; the player learns a system as basic and rote as up/blue means 'good', down/red means 'bad'. They no longer have to engage with the content of what they are saying. In pure ludic terms, in terms of what is advantageous for their character, they no longer even need to understand the language the conversation is happening in.

Yes, the failures here are inextricably tied to Bioware's shoddy handling of morality, and yes, having conventional line-by-line dialogue options would be exactly the same if the good, neutral and evil lines were always in the same order... but in most classic RPGs (and in that paragon of all 'talky' RPGs, Torment), they weren't. And they didn't have to be, because it was expected players would read and choose among them.

...which meant you had to engage with what was being said, think about how you would respond to it from a diverse and variable palette of options, and make each and every one of your conversation choices both contextually and intellectually.

The wheel ensures that you don't. In fact, its very purpose -- to induce quick, fluid, 'cinematic' conversation -- means that Bioware are required to arrange the options conventionally just so they will be intuitive... and this makes the actual content of those options (the actual words and language deployed) all but irrelevant.

Okay, first: For like the third time already, "good" and "evil" are not intrinsic parts of the dialogue wheel. Making the conversation flow - yes. Making things systematic and intuitive so the player very quickly picks up on a basic idea of which option is going to do which - yes. Being good or evil - no. As I've said, again, like three times now, it could just as easily be systematically that the top option is Lawful and the bottom option Chaotic, it could be that the top option Agrees and the bottom option Disagrees, it could be that the top option is Democrat and the bottom option is Republican - anything can go there, as long as it's systematic. It doesn't even need to be the same axis through the entire game - providing icons as in DA2 letting you know whether the decision has to do with legality, a reaction to what the NPC is saying can let you use as many variations on the system as you'd like. Any of these systems would be just as intuitive as Mass Effect's current system, and all of them would still provide opportunity for actual thought and ambiguity in terms of what is "good" and what is "evil".

It is entirely a failing of Bioware's writers and not at all a failing of the mechanical designers of the dialogue wheel that top-right is "good" and bottom-right is "bad".



Otherwise, if your contention is actually that the simple act of reading a line and figuring out whether it is good or bad is inherently superior to, say, knowing that one option is "being lawful" and the other one is "breaking the law" and then using the context of the situation to then figure out which is good and which is evil, then I'm just withdrawing from this conversation, because that would be the most pathetic, nonsensical, and misplaced sense of pride and condescension I have ever seen in my life. 'Basic reading comprehension' is a triviality we can all assume, regardless of whether or not a game requires you to read the entire dialogue in full before selecting it.

 

[chris-013]

Qunari arc is too good, best part of the game yet.