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Dragon Age II |OT| The Revenge of Shit Mountain

Xilium

Member
Coxswain said:
That was covered about a page ago, but it's still a problem with traditional dialogue trees. In DAO there were a lot of instances where I was apparently saying something completely different from what I thought I was saying, because there's no indication of the tone in which you're meant to be saying them. I thought I was joking around and gently ribbing them; apparently those were meant to be taken as vicious insults. (It works the other way around, as someone mentioned; you think you're being a total evil bastard, and then someone goes, "Ha ha, good one!")
Between Alistair and Oghren alone there were far more times where that happened in DAO than there were times when Shepard did something that surprised me, through both Mass Effect games.

If you're strictly talking about companions then I have to say the onus is on you for not understanding their personalities. This is one area of Biowares dialog system I thought they did quite well in and is something that was improved upon in AP.

Put simply, each companion will react differently to each of the varying tones you can use. Leliana/Zevran/Wynne responded best to the general 'nice' tone, Alistair/Oghren/Shale responded best to the 'sarcastic' tone (when available), and Morrigan/Sten responded best to the 'direct/"to the point" tone.

You can even break it down further, per character (specifically, what each character doesn't want to hear), but the point is that if you understand their personalities, it shouldn't be difficult to know how they will react to a chosen dialog option.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oh oh oh it seems Amazon.ca screwed me. They changed the image of the SE to the image of the regular edition on my order page. Free credits? I hope so.
 
X-Frame said:
It's not what I care most about, but it's my preference in RPG's to have everyone voiced, especially the main character. It was really weird playing Origins at the beginning because of that.

I disliked the way Origins did it since after a while and with sometimes 5 full sentences to choose from I stopped reading them all and just picked the first one that seemed fine.

I want to get on with the story and gameplay, not sit there for too long reading sentences and then after I pick on my character still stares awkwardly at the screen. Feels to me like the other character just talk to themselves.

But I do understand why you and others would much prefer the way Origins did it (and I suspect older RPG's too?).

It has everything to do with reductionism in dialog choices as mentioned above, as well as the fact that the main character is you. Not as "cinematic", perhaps, but this is an interactive media.
 

Gorgon

Member
The real difference between a dialog wheel and a tree is that the wheel lets you choose the general direction of whatever the hell it is some character on the screen is going to ramble about and the tree lets you choose what the character you are playing will "say".

The problem is when these dialohue systems are so badly done that you choose A and your character says B. That's bad design and is symptomatic of these systems until now. It is not unsourmountable, of course, but all games so far using it have totally failed to do so. At least in the "complete sentences mode" the tone may not be entirely clear but you have a much better chance that it will be. That problem seems to have been overcome to a certain extent in DA2, but you still get your character saying stuff that many times you certainly didn't expect him to. This for me is a pretty bad roleplaying system.


Shake Appeal said:
This should be by design in any good conversation system. The results of your conversation choices should be at times and to some extent unpredictable, just as they are in life. The way ME2's 'conversations' shepherd (lol) you through one of two predefined scripts (unless you decide to play the game badly/less than efficiently) is the worst thing about them.

No, it shoudn't. One thing is not knowing what the reaction to what you say will be. That happens in real life. Another entirely is to choose a reply and something else comes out of your character because the designers completely failed to make clear to the player what the answer and tone of the response would be.

Which can be a downside to the word for word option as you can never be sure of the intended tone of the statement.

Nothing stops you from having both the word for word AND an icon for tone (agressive/sarcastic/serious/whatever). The icons don't even have to be standardized to 3 retarded tone simplifications: they can easily be text instead of icons and be introduced per choice while writting the dialogue. For me, this is the far superior form of dialogue system.


Shake Appeal said:
It's only a downside when you've been coached by ten years of pandering videogame design to think you should always have total foresight and control over every decision you make in a supposedly complex and reactive world.

But you SHOULD have total control over what your character says. Whats the point if you don't? They can just as well put a non-interactive cut-scene for you and let it at that. If your character "talks" and you choose what he says, than you should be perfectly conscious about what he's going to say and with what intention. The NPC's reactions to what you say are something else entirely.

If you care mostly about your character speaking, you picked the wrong genre.

And all this time I thought these were roleplaying games? Even pen& paper has moved beyond the tactical combat of the original D&D with no dialogue or choices as an important factor even before the end of the 70s.

In life, it is entirely and exactly predictable that I will know whether I'm going to say something sarcastically or seriously, and whether I'm going to come across as being gentle/nice, nonchalant, angry, or what have you. This is the step where Dragon Age fails, but you could then make the argument that you also need to take into account the other person's reaction.

Exactely. The other person's reaction, however, is something else that should not interfere with your choice in a dialogue. You control your character, not the NPCs.

To a situation where I could play Mass Effect 3 in another fucking language and still max out my Light Side bar

Yeah, that really brings out how ridiculous these systems tend to be.

Fredescu said:
Bioware games have bad morality systems, news at 11. That's nothing to do with the wheel as an input device.

Developers can certainly make the Wheel work much better if they really take the care to make certain that an abreviation really transmits what the character is going to say. Until now, it has failed, with better or worse measures of failure.

Well put. People need to get over the whole "the wheel sucks!" thing. The wheel is not the problem.

The Wheel per se is not the problem, but unfortunately it tends to bring down the worse in bad dialogue systems. When dialogue systems are already imperfect, the Wheel is just bringing yet another level of disconection between what the player wants the character to say and what it actually says. The Wheel system has brought absolutely nothing positive to the genre, quite the opposite.

It comes down to this:

do you want to know exactly what words your character will say

or

do you want to know exactly what tone your character will say those words in.


Both have their upsides and downsides. DA:O had so many situations where you wanted to say something jokey/flirty but it was actually the jerk dialog, and vice versa. Like, half of Alistair's tree was like this because joking with him was the way to flirt.

Let's say you have a dialog that says:

"Nice job."

Are you being sarcastic? complementary? flirty? stoic?

Is that better or worse then a wheel with an option:

>:| "Be Sarcastic"

You can easily have both:

1) "Nice Job!" (Truthful)
2) "Nice Job..." (Sarcastic)
3) "Nice Job..." (Flirty)
4) "Nice Job." (Professional)

etc

There's no reason why full dialogue can't be complemented by a tone qualifier text after the sentence.


In Mass Effect 2, if you want to be the good character, you follow this script.

1. If a blue option is available, select it.
2. If no blue option is available, select options on the left side of the wheel until none remain.
3. Now select the top right option.
4. Repeat.

And that brings yeat another problem: I may want to be nice and end up saying something that insults the NPC because he is from a different culture. With this retarded system, my character always know what to do, when, how, etc, because all I have to do is pick "the good choice". This is dumb as shit.

I don't really like Alpha Protocol's system either, but it suits the nature of most conversations in that game (businesslike, barked thriller-y shit), and at least it clarifies the conversational approach you are going to take at a given moment, and better yet makes it pointless to make game-y decisions. I say 'pointless' because it showers you with rewards no matter what you do ("you were consistent in your dialogue choices? have a perk! you were inconsistent? have another perk!"), and because you have to make genuine choices between allies and factions (based, perhaps, on your own good sense, intuition, and personal politics!) that have knock-on consequences, and can't be taken back.

Unfortunately it wasn't excately much better either. I whish Obsidian hadn't fell into this fad of wheel systems. It's doing nothing for the genre except making it worse.

That's always been the way hasn't it?

Bioware makes great characters
Obsidian makes great writing
Bethesda makes great atmosphere

"Great atmosphere" and "Bethesda" can't be put in the same sentence. I concede I'm totally hyped and hope to be proven wrong with Skyrim, though.
 

Zeliard

Member
I posted this a while back on my issues with the dialogue wheel:

That type of system only makes sense in a game like Alpha Protocol, because the choices there are timed, and so you want to have short commands to choose from.

In Bioware games, the dialogue wheel hurts them a great deal because it makes everything painfully transparent and predictable, especially combined with Bioware's typically binary C&C and character development options. The dialogue system keeps the same structure throughout, so there's no variance.

After a point, you're not as much picking dialogue options as you are picking a specific portion of the dialogue wheel. They have more icons now to indicate different emotions, but it's basically irrelevant as they always seem to be located in the same spot on the dialogue wheel.

Also, the different icons in DA2 are even grouped into the same portion of the wheel since they're meant to convey similar types of emotions, i.e. in the full wheel both the halo/wings and the olive branch are always on the top right; the diamond and the comedy mask are always in the middle; the hammer and the fist are always on the bottom right.
 

Gvaz

Banned
I noticed when Hawke talks to the Arishock, all her questions (which end with a question mark) also show a ? icon.

Kinda unnecessary, don't you think?
 
Coxswain said:
Okay, first: For like the third time already, "good" and "evil" are not intrinsic parts of the dialogue wheel. Making the conversation flow - yes. Making things systematic and intuitive so the player very quickly picks up on a basic idea of which option is going to do which - yes. Being good or evil - no. As I've said, again, like three times now, it could just as easily be systematically that the top option is Lawful and the bottom option Chaotic, it could be that the top option Agrees and the bottom option Disagrees, it could be that the top option is Democrat and the bottom option is Republican - anything can go there, as long as it's systematic. It doesn't even need to be the same axis through the entire game - providing icons as in DA2 letting you know whether the decision has to do with legality, a reaction to what the NPC is saying can let you use as many variations on the system as you'd like. Any of these systems would be just as intuitive as Mass Effect's current system, and all of them would still provide opportunity for actual thought and ambiguity in terms of what is "good" and what is "evil".

It is entirely a failing of Bioware's writers and not at all a failing of the mechanical designers of the dialogue wheel that top-right is "good" and bottom-right is "bad".



Otherwise, if your contention is actually that the simple act of reading a line and figuring out whether it is good or bad is inherently superior to, say, knowing that one option is "being lawful" and the other one is "breaking the law" and then using the context of the situation to then figure out which is good and which is evil, then I'm just withdrawing from this conversation, because that would be the most pathetic, nonsensical, and misplaced sense of pride and condescension I have ever seen in my life. 'Basic reading comprehension' is a triviality we can all assume, regardless of whether or not a game requires you to read the entire dialogue in full before selecting it.
Oh, sure, the conversation wheel isn't flawed because it's tied to Bioware's dumb morality switches (though that's what exacerbates the transparently game-y elements of it); it's flawed because the abbreviation and 'systemization' of human language retards everything we try to do with it, and ultimately does a disservice to the human mind playing the game.

You're getting all worked up, though, so my question's this: can you think of a single deep or worthwhile conversation either in your personal experience, in a television, novel, or film, or in any other form including historical transcription, that could be reduced to consistent, systematic gambits of four or five options, with only the minimum involvement of complex language?

It's not a question of basic reading comprehension (which is not a "triviality", by the way, it's a miracle), it's a question of whether you want to try and have your conversations reflect the nuance and depth of human communication through the almost infinitely complex pictorial system that is language -- even if that means stilting your 'cinematic' ambitions -- or whether you want to reduce that system and the communication it ensures to a few attitudinal levers to be pulled. To be clear, since you don't seem to get it: I don't care what's written on the levers, or what they're tied to. I care that the very fact of their being brute levers delineates and diminishes our intellectual and linguistic involvement with even a flimsy videogame representation of 'conversation'.

Physically reading the lines isn't important. What's important is thinking and responding to even pale facsimiles of humans through the staggeringly complex pictorial system that informs all real human thought and endeavour... rather than through a brutish and reductive one (which could be of any kind you like, and hey, you outlined quite a few, each one as brutish and reductive as the last).

I repeat:

unbenannt3k79d.png


When you find a way to make the insanely complex cognitive processes and recollections that occur when a thinking player reads these options, considers each in turn -- reflecting on their experience to date in the game (and even in life!), trying to outfox Ravel, or just to be honest, and dwelling meanwhile on the very concepts of love, hatred, truth, deception, hope, nihilism, and all the consequent associations of these that this dialogue option potentially provokes -- conform to a "systematic and intuitive" wheel of at most six options, through binary oppositions like 'Agree/Disagree' or 'Lawful/Unlawful', or even some classy emoticons... then holler back. Planescape's is a terrible system, but it's the least terrible we've ever had for representing the breadth and depth of human conversation.

I mean the funny thing is that most of the options here have no bearing on what actually happens in the game; they have no mechanical ties to in-game consequences, stat boosts, or morality meters. No, all they do is cause the player to think, and not just to react.
 

Gorgon

Member
Zeliard said:
After a point, you're not as much picking dialogue options as you are picking a specific portion of the dialogue wheel. They have more icons now to indicate different emotions, but it's basically irrelevant as they always seem to be located in the same spot on the dialogue wheel.

Also, the different icons in DA2 are even grouped into the same portion of the wheel since they're meant to convey similar types of emotions, i.e. in the full wheel both the halo/wings and the olive branch are always on the top right; the diamond and the comedy mask are always in the middle; the hammer and the fist are always on the bottom right.

That wound't change even if they weren't on the same position. The icons are there so it would just be a matter of choosing "the right answer". It's dumb as fuck any way you look at it.

Also, there are other problems with these systems. For example, I may want to tell a lie sarcastically, with a professional tone, in an apologetical tone, etc, trying to get a certain reaction from an NPC to get me out of a though situation (of course, I don't know if it will work with the NPC, but that's another thing entirely). How do you do that with this shit system? You don't, and dialogue, choices, consequences, NPC depth of charcater, etc have all to be dumbed down so that everything fits the limitations of the dialogue system. With a word-for-word dialogue system incorporating tone/intention based text at the end/begining of the sentence, and with no sentence number limits, you can do whatever the fuck you want. That's why there is no way that these wheel systems, as far as I can predict, will deliver a solid basis to represent most of what you want in a natural dialogue within the limitations of videogames. "Cinematic" reasons aren't good enough to legitimize the way ROLEplaying games are beying lobotomized by companies like Bioware.
 
Fimbulvetr said:
If this follows recent Bioware trends, their reasons for joining you in the first place will be slim at best.
It's because you're a natural leader™
People just seem to follow you (and kill people for you) without really knowing why!
 

nubbe

Member
Downloaded the DA2 demo on Steam after i tried the 360 version.

It is unplayable with mouse and keyboard!

Bioware took a piss on the PC indeed.
 
Let's do a fun example of how Planescape would look if it had a conversation wheel! I'll do a very simple one with only three choices, because otherwise it would take too long!

image015.jpg


So here's Dhall asking you about your most basic and foundational experience of reality, and trying to rhetorically convey his own Dustman philosophy that this 'life' is just a transitional shadow, and that we need to die and get over with it in order to pass into a more real existence.

This is pretty heavy shit for five minutes into the game! No sweat, though: we can get some baller voice actor to read these lines wheezily. Maybe some old dude from one of the Star Treks, so the nerds can pump their fists when they recognize him.

Anyway, Dhall's lines are winding down, and up pops the wheel. We only need three options here, but they have to be able to be read quickly (and 'intuitively'), so the player knows what their response is and so can consciously choose to select the one they feel best represents their character. We've got a window of a few seconds here to get the information across and have the player express themselves (i.e. play their role) through them. Cake, right?

Option 2's pretty easy. We can strip this down to "How?" Okay, it makes the Nameless One's speech seem blunter than it is originally written, and we might not be sure what part of Dhall's speech exactly he is responding to (is he asking "How do I look inside myself?", "How is something lacking?" "How are these the elements that make up 'life'?" or "How are they part of that cage that traps us in the shadow?" Shit, this is hard, isn't it? But I guess the player will understand that the basic "How?" is a general interrogative that will probably result in more speech, even if they don't know about what, exactly. Fine, whatever. Alternatively, we could just throw a little question mark symbol here, but then maybe it just seems like the Nameless One is clueless or confused, when in fact his question is precise and directed... so that's less than ideal.

Option 3 isn't too bad either. We can just boil this down to "Enough philosophy"... except, wait, there's two sentences here. One shuts down what Dhall says, the other demands an answer to a self-interested question. The tone is pretty crucial here, too: it's abrupt, even hostile. I guess we could write "Enough!", though that's a bit aggressive and doesn't really carry the required undertone of contempt. Also, is he saying "Enough!" because he's bored, or because he's baffled, or because he's irritated by Dhall's rhetoric? In the original, "all this talk" has just the right whiff of dismissal to give us that last sense. But I guess we have to strip that nuance out for the wheel's sake: so we're either bored or baffled or angry, whatever. They're all the same, right? We just don't want to hear any more. So "Enough!" will have to do for now, even though it doesn't intimate that a follow-up question will be coming, which we may or may not have wanted to ask when we chose the option. Oh well, who cares. Even a little frowny-face would do the job here! Sort of.

Option 1, though. Fuck. Okay, 'fatalism' is a tricky word, loaded with extra-game content, and the Nameless One is deploying it here to introduce a nuanced argument, so let's scratch that one out right away. Let's see, he wants to say that he agrees with Dhall's stated position to some extent, even going so far as to accept that 'misery' and 'torment' (two very abstract nouns, the latter of which is, hey, the name of the game!) are things that exist to be experienced in this world, whatever the status of this world is. That's some metaphysical shit, right there. But he's also saying they're not the "whole" of life, and the implication is that he can't subscribe entirely to Dhall's gloomy worldview, that he has seen or experienced good things in life that may reveal it to be very real, contra the Dustman philosophy as stated by Dhall. But how to represent all this in a couple of words, rapidly understood?

Well, it's not a question, though it is an open invitation for a rebuttal or counterpoint, so on balance it should probably be on the right side of the wheel. And it's pretty earnest, so I guess it could go near the top: the player will know that this is a 'positive' option (or at least a friendly, engaged one). But what words to choose to distill its meaning? I guess we could say "Only a part" or "Not the whole", but I can't imagine most players gleaning the intent behind those. Shit. Probably the best thing to do is put a little shaking head. But that seems overly negative given the agreeable, even conciliatory tone of the original statement; it runs the risk of signalling outright disagreement with what Dhall has said. Or maybe it just means the Nameless One is sad at the thought. The emoticon would have to be impossibly perfect to represent the specific point of disagreement the Nameless One outlines in the original (hey, maybe that's why we developed language, because brute gestures weren't cutting it... hmmm...), and yet we can't have a different emoticon for every conversation option in the game for practical reasons. So maybe we'll just have to take the loss of meaning on the chin. Probably the best thing to do here is "I disagree", even though we don't know then exactly what it is we're disagreeing with (that something is lacking? that this is puragtory? that there is only sorrow? that these are the elements that make up 'life'? that they are part of the cage that traps us? all of the above?); and in fact may be disappointed when the line delivered isn't true to our intention as a player.

Well, that was messy, wasn't it?

But I guess this argument, this one fleeting option, could be stripped for parts and turned into just "How?", "I disagree" and "Enough!" We could even throw a neutral "Hmmm" in between the latter two, just for variety's sake, in case the player isn't sure whether they want to be "friendly" or "mean" (read: good or evil?). Of course, none of these options really say very much, and certainly say a lot less than was originally intended by the writer of Planescape. Worst of all, they make the player's engagement with what Dhall is saying minimal, and their thinking about it less than nuanced and all but non-existent. But shit, bros, they move the cutscene along crisply... and that's what the wheel is good for!

(And Jesus wept.)
 
Shake Appeal said:
Let's do a fun example of how Planescape would look if it had a conversation wheel! I'll do a very simple one with only three choices, because otherwise it would take too long!

(And Jesus wept.)
This example is flawed based on the assumption that Mass Effect or Dragon Age are supposed to have the depth or nuance of planescape. You are just supposd to pick "good' "middling" "bad' option and take in the glorious cinematic experience that is an RPG. Good god man, you aren't supposed to think, whats wrong with you.
 

kitzkozan

Member
Lostconfused said:
This example is flawed based on the assumption that Mass Effect or Dragon Age are supposed to have the depth or nuance of planescape. You are just supposd to pick "good' "middling" "bad' option and take in the glorious cinematic experience that is an RPG. Good god man, you aren't supposed to think, whats wrong with you.

Yep,thinking won't bring you the sales and the money. :p
 

Durante

Member
I just want to say that I love Shake Appeal's argument in this thread.
It's basically what I wanted to express earlier when I posted this snippet:

bg1_diayrd4.png


But he expressed it infinitely more eloquently and using an even better example.

Einbroch said:
Yes, let's all troll more in a game that many of us haven't played for more than 20 minutes.
If you call in-depth, well formulated discussion of the impact of the "dialog wheel" concept on RPG conversation design trolling then I wonder what you consider legitimate posts.
 

DanielJr82

Member
I've been reading this thread for the past week and I wanted to say so many things, but now that my account is activated I've lost all interest to do so, lol. This is my first post in NeoGAF, long time reader, first time user.

I know there's a lot of hate for the game here (OP is still hilarious), but anybody going to the midnight release tonight? If you live in Edmonton the Bioware team will be there. :)
 
Lostconfused said:
This example is flawed based on the assumption that Mass Effect or Dragon Age are supposed to have the depth or nuance of planescape.
I was just about to post the same.

However, I will say that the conversation wheel as a general element of gameplay design doesn't mean that you can't have quality interactions and nuanced/depth to the writing. Alpha Protocol is a great example of that. For as many issues as that game had that were gameplay related, the implementation of its conversation wheel and the character interactions were absolutely its best elements and *THE* reason I played through the game twice.

Of all the games that feature the wheel, it's the only one that's ever truly gotten it right, IMHO. The wonders of having a Chris Avellone designing/writing.;)
 

Gvaz

Banned
Lostconfused said:
This example is flawed based on the assumption that Mass Effect or Dragon Age are supposed to have the depth or nuance of planescape. You are just supposd to pick "good' "middling" "bad' option and take in the glorious cinematic experience that is an RPG. Good god man, you aren't supposed to think, whats wrong with you.

Feh, thinking is for philistines, I'm a warrior I should act like one! *swings sword while yelling "Enchantment!" as loud as you can*
 

Einbroch

Banned
Shake Appeal said:
Well, I was mainly trolling Mass Effect 2, a game I played for 40 hours.
I completely agree. And while Dragon Age 2 is a far cry from Planescape, it DOES have more than good, neutral, and bad. Aggressive (lower right, red icon that usually means Renegade/Evil) CAN be the good/nice choice, and in fact it frequently is.

So you know where I stand, I preferred DA:O's model over DA2, but it's not Mass Effect.

Durante said:
If you call in-depth, well formulated discussion of the impact of the "dialog wheel" concept on RPG conversation design trolling then I wonder what you consider legitimate posts.

A dialog wheel discussion is fine, but be clear when you're specifically talking about Mass Effect. This is not the same game and in fact takes many strides in making the wheel legitimate.
 
Durante said:
But he expressed it infinitely more eloquently and using an even better example.
Yours is actually a better example, because mine can be fitted to a conversation wheel, whereas yours just... can't. You would have to jump through crazy hoops to get anything resembling that dialogue option to be comprehensible in ME2/DA2.
 
Shake Appeal said:
Yours is actually a better example, because mine can be fitted to a conversation wheel, whereas yours just... can't.
It sure as hell can, you just aren't trying hard enough. Theres only 6 options so you can cram all of them into one wheel. Now you chop of the entire text and leave the last sentance, then you pair it down into two or three words like


you are guilty.................. you are the only innocent
Everyone is guilty.................. No one is guilty
They are guilty.................. Only they are innocent

Boom, done! Give me a job bioware, I can do this all day.

Edit: Then you color code that shit and put it in the right corners so the player doesn't even have to think about what the hell he is picking, its too easy. Just too easy.
 

luxarific

Nork unification denier
DanielJr82 said:
I've been reading this thread for the past week and I wanted to say so many things, but now that my account is activated I've lost all interest to do so, lol. This is my first post in NeoGAF, long time reader, first time user.

I know there's a lot of hate for the game here (OP is still hilarious), but anybody going to the midnight release tonight? If you live in Edmonton the Bioware team will be there. :)

No midnight release for me, but I'm still excited for this game. I've been playing through DA:O this past week (third time), and that experience has me looking forward to revisiting this universe again. It really is one of the better fantasy game worlds out there, giving one a sense of a much larger world outside of Ferelden and the complexity of this world's political, religious, and cultural development. I'm still opening up new Codex entries on my third play through of the game! (I can sort of understand why Bioware did not want to repeat DA:O's development process for the second game, if only because the amount of writing required for the first game must have been hugely time-consuming and expensive.)

dark10x said:
A very strange thread indeed.

Does anyone have any hope that DA2 will actually be a good game? Could it potentially be a good game even after simplification? It seems that many are lamenting what has become of the WRPG in this case, but does alone make for a bad game?

The conversations all seem to be centered on what Bioware did not do rather than the quality of what they actually did.

So is it really trash or is it a decent game in a simplified form?

Yes, I have hope. The vast majority of people in this thread have not played the full game yet (and I haven't either). I'm not going to condemn the game without playing it first, even if the demo had problems (which it does). I would have missed out on a lot of enjoyable gaming experiences (including the original game), if I let pre-release media and demos dictate my purchases. I don't blame people for not buying the game or buying it a cheaper price point because they don't like what they've seen, but I hope they would extend the same courtesy to those of us who haven't come to the same decision.
 

kitzkozan

Member
Shake Appeal said:
Well, I was mainly trolling Mass Effect 2, a game I played for 40 hours.

You are giving weight to Bioware decision of dumbing down their games. :p

Why? It's obvious that nearly 100% of the game critics out there couldn't give a flying fuck about old school crpg (especially since a lot of them never played PC games and grew on jrpg) as they loved the conversation wheel.If they didn't,they couldn't care less and quite frankly many others probably looked toward the shooting/missions type more than anything else.Mass effect 2 didn't get so many high reviews+game of the year award because of the rpg/roleplay factor or the dialogue.

That's why Obsidian will get pounded by critics as long as they don't get much better tech people and gameplay designers as most critics couldn't care less about their writing or roleplay expertize.

If critics don't care about old school crpgs,imagine most gamers out there.I'm sure that most dudebros who buy the newest Elder's scroll won't even notice or care about whatever depth there is in the dialogue.It's all about action rpg mechanics and killing everyone and everything out there. :p
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
A very strange thread indeed.

Does anyone have any hope that DA2 will actually be a good game? Could it potentially be a good game even after simplification? It seems that many are lamenting what has become of the WRPG in this case, but does alone make for a bad game?

The conversations all seem to be centered on what Bioware did not do rather than the quality of what they actually did.

So is it really trash or is it a decent game in a simplified form?
 
dark10x said:
Does anyone have any hope that DA2 will actually be a good game? Could it potentially be a good game even after simplification? It seems that many are lamenting what has become of the WRPG in this case, but does alone make for a bad game?
I liked Fable 3 and I think it was a good game, so yeah I am pretty sure I'll be able to enjoy DA2 as well.
 

styl3s

Member
Does anyone have this on 360? if so how well does it run? the demo was kind of choppy, does the retail run smooth? just wondering cause im about to go pre-order the ps3 or 360 version in a couple of hours so i can pick it up at midnight.
 

JoeBoy101

Member
kitzkozan said:
If critics don't care about old school crpgs,imagine most gamers out there.I'm sure that most dudebros who buy the newest Elder's scroll won't even notice or care about whatever depth there is in the dialogue.It's all about action rpg mechanics and killing everyone and everything out there. :p

Elder Scrolls game never had depth in their dialogue to begin with.
 

Gorgon

Member
Great example from Shake Appeal.

Also:

Durante said:
I just want to say that I love Shake Appeal's argument in this thread.
It's basically what I wanted to express earlier when I posted this snippet:

bg1_diayrd4.png


But he expressed it infinitely more eloquently and using an even better example.

If you call in-depth, well formulated discussion of the impact of the "dialog wheel" concept on RPG conversation design trolling then I wonder what you consider legitimate posts.

This is even better at showing the complete handicap of a wheel system. You simply cannot, in any shape or form, convey the breath of nuance that a word-for-word dialogue can. You have to completely dumb down your game to bare minimals, making it pretty much impossible to have such a complex dialogue interaction as this example portrays. Having a wheel system will automatically bring down the complexity of dialogue and interaction by default.

There is absolutely no excusable or redeemable aspects in the use of a wheel system.

Futurevoid said:
I was just about to post the same.

However, I will say that the conversation wheel as a general element of gameplay design doesn't mean that you can't have quality interactions and nuanced/depth to the writing. Alpha Protocol is a great example of that. For as many issues as that game had that were gameplay related, the implementation of its conversation wheel and the character interactions were absolutely its best elements and *THE* reason I played through the game twice.

Of all the games that feature the wheel, it's the only one that's ever truly gotten it right, IMHO. The wonders of having a Chris Avellone designing/writing.;)

I think you missed the sarcasm of the original post.

As for AP, no, you really can't compare AP to what was done in Torment, or The Witcher for that matter, Chris Avellone or no Chris Avellone.
 

kitzkozan

Member
Lostconfused said:
Edit: Then you color code that shit and put it in the right corners so the player doesn't even have to think about what the hell he is picking, its too easy. Just too easy.

Lawl,this remind of Sanford Kelly ( a top Marvel vs Capcom 2 player) shitting on Marvel vs Capcom 3 because it's too scrub friendly: the game is easy,it's just too easy.

Anyway,I don't think the game is trash by any mean.Unfortunately,it's hard to get a proper point of view when you have so many old school crpg fans in this thread.
 

webrunner

Member
Gorgon said:
This is even better at showing the complete handicap of a wheel system. You simply cannot, in any shape or form, convey the breath of nuance that a word-for-word dialogue can. You have to completely dumb down your game to bare minimals, making it pretty much impossible to have such a complex dialogue interaction as this example portrays. Having a wheel system will automatically bring down the complexity of dialogue and interaction by default.

One could argue that laying the entire argument out in text like that is 'dumbing down' more than just giving you the conclusions and making the player figure out which one is right themselves.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
webrunner said:
One could argue that laying the entire argument out in text like that is 'dumbing down' more than just giving you the conclusions and making the player figure out which one is right themselves.
lol no.
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Shake Appeal said:
Of course, none of these options really say very much, and certainly say a lot less than was originally intended by the writer of Planescape. Worst of all, they make the player's engagement with what Dhall is saying minimal, and their thinking about it less than nuanced and all but non-existent.

To be fair, having the 2 word options doesn't prevent what was originally intended by the writer of Planetscape from being said. Selecting "I disagree" could lead to your character saying "I think your fatalism..."

Is there less nuance? I'm not sure, I haven't played Planetscape. Do the follow up responses to picking any of these three show more nuance than "I disagree", "How?", and "Enough"?
 
dark10x said:
A very strange thread indeed.

Does anyone have any hope that DA2 will actually be a good game? Could it potentially be a good game even after simplification? It seems that many are lamenting what has become of the WRPG in this case, but does alone make for a bad game?

The conversations all seem to be centered on what Bioware did not do rather than the quality of what they actually did.

So is it really trash or is it a decent game in a simplified form?
I think it won't be terrible. I think a lot of people hated on DA before it came out and then it did and it was awesome. I'm not expecting the same thing to happen here but I'm thinking it will be just okay.
 

Gorgon

Member
webrunner said:
One could argue that laying the entire argument out in text like that is 'dumbing down' more than just giving you the conclusions and making the player figure out which one is right themselves.

Huh...what?

The text options give you what your character says, not the NPC reaction. I assume you understand the difference?
 

Durante

Member
dark10x said:
Does anyone have any hope that DA2 will actually be a good game? Could it potentially be a good game even after simplification?
Absolutely, otherwise I wouldn't be posting in this thread. I just hate it when people try to claim that it actually isn't simplified, and I'm still trying to figure out if it's playable on Nightmare. (And, admittedly, I do feel like lamenting the state of cRPGs from time to time)
 

webrunner

Member
water_wendi said:

When you do it like that, with long deep text, you're basically doing all the work for the player as it is: it just becomes a multiple choice question with all the work already shown.

If it was layed out as mentoned above, with just the conclusions, it would be harder and require more of the player. How is that "dumbed down"?



Anyway it's all unimportant really. The main issue that everyone is dancing around (the pro are ignoring and the anti are slamming and blaming on unrelated things like the input method itself) is making the 'correct' choice too easy. This is f actor of three things:

1. "Good" morally is "Good" tactically 99% of the time.
2. "Good" morally is always up-right and up-left
3. Up-left is always better than up-right since it gives you points.

you can solve all three of those things while still using a wheel.


Gorgon said:
Huh...what?

The text options give you what your character says, not the NPC reaction. I assume you understand the difference?


Of course I do, but figuring out the NPC reaction is only part of the puzzle. The other part is working out the actual moral issue first: but most of that is done for you in the planescape example. The entire reasoning behind each choice is given as part of the answer- already written by the developer- it's just up to the player to agree with one or not.

If just the conclusions were given you would still have to arrive at the conclusions yourself in order to figure out which one you should choose.
 
webrunner said:
One could argue that laying the entire argument out in text like that is 'dumbing down' more than just giving you the conclusions and making the player figure out which one is right themselves.
Its not about that

I didn't quote this part before but I do agree with it
Shake Appeal said:
Worst of all, they make the player's engagement with what Dhall is saying minimal, and their thinking about it less than nuanced and all but non-existent. But shit, bros, they move the cutscene along crisply... and that's what the wheel is good for!

With old dialog trees you could be presented with a huge variety of options, long lines of text. You had all the time in the world to read, think about them and come to some kind of conclusion or opinion. You became more involved in the game because you actually spent time thinking about what those lines mean and how they might effect the game.

With the dialog wheel you only pick the direction in which you want the action to flow and then you passively watch a scene being played out before you. Its much more passive, there is less inolvement. It is more cinematic in the sense that you don't pause for a seccond to think about the dialog, you just let it wash over you.
webrunner said:
When you do it like that, with long deep text, you're basically doing all the work for the player as it is: it just becomes a multiple choice question with all the work already shown.
You are making an incorrect assumption that there IS a CORRECT response. Yes there is a part in DA:O where you get word riddles and you have 6 options and one of them is the right answer and its very simple to guess. The point is though, its not about finding the correct answer. Its about thinking over the choices you have and picking the one you want based on whatever decision process you used.
 

Grisby

Member
dark10x said:
A very strange thread indeed.

Does anyone have any hope that DA2 will actually be a good game? Could it potentially be a good game even after simplification? It seems that many are lamenting what has become of the WRPG in this case, but does alone make for a bad game?

The conversations all seem to be centered on what Bioware did not do rather than the quality of what they actually did.

So is it really trash or is it a decent game in a simplified form?

Bioware has never let me down, not in all of the games I've played. So I don't really expect them to start now.
 
Xilium said:
If you're strictly talking about companions then I have to say the onus is on you for not understanding their personalities. This is one area of Biowares dialog system I thought they did quite well in and is something that was improved upon in AP.

Put simply, each companion will react differently to each of the varying tones you can use. Leliana/Zevran/Wynne responded best to the general 'nice' tone, Alistair/Oghren/Shale responded best to the 'sarcastic' tone (when available), and Morrigan/Sten responded best to the 'direct/"to the point" tone.

You can even break it down further, per character (specifically, what each character doesn't want to hear), but the point is that if you understand their personalities, it shouldn't be difficult to know how they will react to a chosen dialog option.


I agree completely, except when it comes to Alistair. I cant recall the conversations exactly but there were a couple times when I ribbed him and he got totally insulted. That would be fine if his character wasn't a huge jokester. There was no mixup in tone or anything, I knew what I was saying, what bugged me is that Alistair is a person who can dish it out but can't take it.

I suppose thats a character development issue but it actually kinda ticked me off.
 
I haven't skipped a Bioware RPG yet, so I will play and enjoy DA2. But I can't see it changing my mind about Bioware making less and less interesting games for years now, even as their presentation has got more impressive (and their storytelling tighter, in some ways).
 
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