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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.

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HeroR

Member
You don't understand why people are disliking Goku in this arc even though every action he takes is to sabotage his own universe?


Not sure how 'every' action he took sabotage his own universe. What, did Cali and Kale wipe half of U7 or something? And 17 and 18 were right there when he let them go, yet no one seems to give a shit about them. And did Gohan do more 'sabotage' since he let the weaker members of his universe go and fend for themselves?

I've slowly grown to dislike Goku as Super has gone on but this arc is just insanely bad for his characterisation. I loved Goku in Z and even the new movies. He was my second favourite character but now I'm not remotely excited when he's on screen and I can't roll my eyes hard enough when he does something stupid. This is such a weird feeling.

That's because Goku wasn't a character in Z, he was a plot device. And Goku in Z honestly did more messed up things then Super Goku, but for some reason fans only seems to remember Goku giving Cell a Senzu, which was one of the tamest things he did. You want to talk about sabotage, how about him refusing to fused with Vegeta to kill Kid Buu because it wasn't fair to Buu since he wasn't a fusion anymore, despite Buu murdering his sons and remaining friends.
 
Not sure how 'every' action he took sabotage his own universe. What, did Cali and Kale wipe half of U7 or something? And 17 and 18 were right there when he let them go, yet no one seems to give a shit about them. And did Gohan do more 'sabotage' since he let the weaker members of his universe go and fend for themselves?

Gohan is being a completely useless character in this arc, but I guess this is true to almost everyone in this tournament. Battle royale was mistake, can't wait to the big final battle so we can move on to the obvious plot twist.
 

HardRojo

Member
Because his current model is different.

rr0GfmJ.png


I think that his new model is really good. I think the problem is that they don't have a reference for him with the bang, that's why every animator does it in his own way, and it rarely works.

That's just a guess on my part seeing how every time we saw the bang it looked different.

I really like how Yamamuro did it though:

LfzpU6n.png

His model there looks fine, problem is he hardly looks like that in several scenes, and it's even worse when they draw Ultimate Gohan because it looks like they have no idea what to do with the bang, they should really get a good reference for that form. I've mostly hated his Ultimate look in Super so far, so I hope they improve it and, if possible, stick closer to that Dokkan model I posted above, it looks much better than what we currently have.
 
SMH at the Goku hate. He is doing fine, he hasn't gotten into any situations he couldn't get out of if he wanted to. He hasn't even taken any real damage yet.


Also the team would most certainly be fucked without him.

Interesting ep, RIP U10, Cus seemed genuinly heartbroken.



You forgot the greatest fusion of all time
G6SBnsi.png
I... Like this
It would, if it was running a marathon (so to speak). That's not really how it was used by Toyotaro, Vegeta vs Black being a one-on-one battle, but the logic applied behind it would make it suitable for the Tournament of Power.
This is dumb. A cheetah is still faster than a gazelle, even if a gazelle can keep up its shoes for a longer time
 

Red Devil

Member
Interesting to look at the difference in art styles.

Gohan looks troubled while Goku looks more like "Well... It's over".

Maybe the GP is using this as some kind of test or evaluation of the Angels themselves, with the whole tournament being just a side game or smokescreen as a means to that end.

BTW, theory judging the angels reactions to the Universe 10 being erased.

The Good Angels:

Plus Beerus and Champa.

I'm actually not so sure about the first one.

The Bad Angels:

Maybe all the angels are in cahoots with the Grand Priest regardless of their reactions, but I'm not sure about even the U5 and U8 angels don't seem to like what they're seeing, also I found it interesting that at the end of the episode they showed the gods and angels of the 4 universes that aren't taking part in the tournament
 

HeroR

Member
Gohan is being a completely useless character in this arc, but I guess this is true to almost everyone in this tournament. Battle royale was mistake, can't wait to the big final battle so we can move on to the obvious plot twist.

I wouldn't call him useless, but there seems to be a double standard with Goku when it comes to every character in this arc:

Goku doesn't give a shit about other the other universes, so he's a monster. No one else gives a shit about the other universes and are only worried about their own universe with 18 wanting money, yet no one seems to call them out on this and instead gets on Goku for being heartless.

Goku is excited for a tournament with the fate of his universe on the line and is called s sociopath. Piccolo is excited for a tournament with the universe on the line, but no one says anything.

Goku doesn't care that people sees him as evil and fans called this worrisome. 17 doesn't mind being called evil and hams it up and he's called awesome.

Goku lied to his friends, he's a terrible person. Gohan was the one who told him to lie, yet no one gets on Gohan for this, in or out of universe.

Goku isn't taking the tournament seriously and he's dicking around, so he's horrible. 17 is dicking around and he doesn't have to save stamina, yet he's seen as cool when he plays around. He's also praised for helping his teammates, despite him only helping Goku and didn't do anything to help 18 when she was nearly ringed or Krillin, yet Goku is blamed for not helping Krillin.

Goku wanted Frieza to increased U7's chances of winning when the rest of the team was willing to gamble with only having nine people, yet fans accused Goku of not being serious and not understanding the stakes.

Goku is blamed for helping other universes by letting Kale and Cali go, despite 17 and 18 being right next to him and did nothing with 17 voicing his approval, yet no one seems to care about them and solely blames Goku.

Gohan abandons his weaker team members, but absolutely no one really cares since Gohan is finally fighting, while Goku was called a terrible teammate when he broke away from the group.

I don't mind fans getting on Goku for the above, but why is he the only one constantly criticized for the above when other characters do the exact same thing or enables Goku's behavior when they don't have to listen to him?
 

Red Devil

Member
This arc would be a lot nicer if there was half the characters and fights were twice as long, these are all so rushed every week.

The only thing that's bothering me is Jiren, even though you don't see everybody else it's implied they're doing one thing or another, Jiren is just standing there.
 
I wouldn't call him useless, but there seems to be a double standard with Goku when it comes to every character in this arc:

Goku doesn't give a shit about other the other universes, so he's a monster. No one else gives a shit about the other universes and are only worried about their own universe with 18 wanting money, yet no one seems to call them out on this and instead gets on Goku for being heartless.

Goku is excited for a tournament with the fate of his universe on the line and is called s sociopath. Piccolo is excited for a tournament with the universe on the line, but no one says anything.

Goku doesn't care that people sees him as evil and fans called this worrisome. 17 doesn't mind being called evil and hams it up and he's called awesome.

Goku lied to his friends, he's a terrible person. Gohan was the one who told him to lie, yet no one gets on Gohan for this, in or out of universe.

Goku isn't taking the tournament seriously and he's dicking around, so he's horrible. 17 is dicking around and he doesn't have to save stamina, yet he's seen as cool when he plays around. He's also praised for helping his teammates, despite him only helping Goku and didn't do anything to help 18 when she was nearly ringed or Krillin, yet Goku is blamed for not helping Krillin.

Goku wanted Frieza to increased U7's chances of winning when the rest of the team was willing to gamble with only having nine people, yet fans accused Goku of not being serious and not understanding the stakes.

Goku is blamed for helping other universes by letting Kale and Cali go, despite 17 and 18 being right next to him and did nothing with 17 voicing his approval, yet no one seems to care about them and solely blames Goku.

Gohan abandons his weaker team members, but absolutely no one really cares since Gohan is finally fighting, while Goku was called a terrible teammate when he broke away from the group.

I don't mind fans getting on Goku for the above, but why is he the only one constantly criticized for the above when other characters do the exact same thing or enables Goku's behavior when they don't have to listen to him?

Great post.
 

Eylos

Banned
Is that Bra?

I dont like that they made a half Saiyan girl, the most preppie way possible. Hope they Change that If happens a time Skip.
 

HardRojo

Member
Is that Bra?

I dont like that they made a half Saiyan girl, the most preppie way possible. Hope they Change that If happens a time Skip.

GT Bulla + GT Pan.
I hope Pan will be a warrior, Bulla can be more of a gag character, your typical teenage girl who cares more about her social life, but with incredible strength :p
 

CazTGG

Member
One minor detail I do like about this episode, in retrospect, is that we had a universe other than 6 or 7 take out a fighter for I believe the first time in the entire arc.

Yet Goku's ring out count is higher than 17's, go figure.

Almost as if more people have gone after Goku because they realize how much of a threat he is after that whole "power that rivals the gods!" display during the exhibition match...and Goku proving them right by ringing most of them out.
 

Skeeter49

Member
One minor detail I do like about this episode, in retrospect, is that we had a universe other than 6 or 7 take out a fighter for I believe the first time in the entire arc.



Almost as if more people have gone after Goku because they realize how much of a threat he is after that whole "power that rivals the gods!" display during the exhibition match...and Goku proving them right by ringing most of them out.
It needs to happen more, but it's the 3rd time.
Basil took out a U10 fighter.
Ribrianne took out the Rose dude in 102.

We need to ship GT Goten with GT Bra.
Are we trying to get Goten killed by Vegeta? I'm in.

We need to ship GT away from existence.
You've awaken a monster
giphy.gif
 
One minor detail I do like about this episode, in retrospect, is that we had a universe other than 6 or 7 take out a fighter for I believe the first time in the entire arc.

Universe 9 Basil (RIP) got first blood in the tournament.

Universe 2 got a few, too.
 

caliph95

Member
It's sad, though, isn't it?

That the non U7/U6 takedowns are so few in number that we can count them on our fingers?

I just can't accept it. It feels too forced.
They shouldn't have stand up to the glorious and magnificent U7

Also not main characters
 

Skeeter49

Member
I wonder if the Doctor from U6 is going to heal Caulifla next episode, so we get his official reveal, and that he can (assuming) heal people.

Kale shouldn't need healing, if that's the direction they go, so hopefully they don't fuck it up and heal her as well.

I think he's out after Hit. Assuming he can heal, once he heals someone he'll be a target.
 
I wouldn't call him useless, but there seems to be a double standard with Goku when it comes to every character in this arc:

Goku doesn't give a shit about other the other universes, so he's a monster. No one else gives a shit about the other universes and are only worried about their own universe with 18 wanting money, yet no one seems to call them out on this and instead gets on Goku for being heartless.

Goku is excited for a tournament with the fate of his universe on the line and is called s sociopath. Piccolo is excited for a tournament with the universe on the line, but no one says anything.

Goku doesn't care that people sees him as evil and fans called this worrisome. 17 doesn't mind being called evil and hams it up and he's called awesome.

Goku lied to his friends, he's a terrible person. Gohan was the one who told him to lie, yet no one gets on Gohan for this, in or out of universe.

Goku isn't taking the tournament seriously and he's dicking around, so he's horrible. 17 is dicking around and he doesn't have to save stamina, yet he's seen as cool when he plays around. He's also praised for helping his teammates, despite him only helping Goku and didn't do anything to help 18 when she was nearly ringed or Krillin, yet Goku is blamed for not helping Krillin.

Goku wanted Frieza to increased U7's chances of winning when the rest of the team was willing to gamble with only having nine people, yet fans accused Goku of not being serious and not understanding the stakes.

Goku is blamed for helping other universes by letting Kale and Cali go, despite 17 and 18 being right next to him and did nothing with 17 voicing his approval, yet no one seems to care about them and solely blames Goku.

Gohan abandons his weaker team members, but absolutely no one really cares since Gohan is finally fighting, while Goku was called a terrible teammate when he broke away from the group.

I don't mind fans getting on Goku for the above, but why is he the only one constantly criticized for the above when other characters do the exact same thing or enables Goku's behavior when they don't have to listen to him?

Oh I definitely agree with all your points. I think people are just showing bias when talking about their favorite characters.

Goku is definitely not a whole model, but this is true to everyone at this point. And I still think that Gohan was completely useless till now, his "stick together and save energy" plan is a failure and served no purpose. But I guess that even this was Goku's fault since he was the one who made Gohan their leader.
 

Sony

Nintendo
Speaking of healing, I can't stand these major Ki-Blasts doing zero to no damage other than pushing people out of bounds. Seriously, how did Vikal take Goku's Ki blasts to her face was fine a couple of moments later.
 

HeroR

Member
It's sad, though, isn't it?

That the non U7/U6 takedowns are so few in number that we can count them on our fingers?

I just can't accept it. It feels too forced.

U7 and U6 got so many outs because U9 directly attacked U7 full force because they had a grudge and got wasted. U11 lost most of their members to Cali and Kale because four of their members attacked and boxed them in. U7 got involved because those five Pride Trooper were directly sent after Goku. In fact, in the first episode of the tourument, someone tried to suicide bomb Goku. Others tried to attack Gohan's circle of friends and got knocked out. Cabba got two when U3 attacked him.

Overall, U6 and U7 got directly targeted by almost everyone with most of the tourument trying to waste U7. If they spread their resources more, more universes would have KOs.
 

LotusHD

Banned
I wouldn't call him useless, but there seems to be a double standard with Goku when it comes to every character in this arc:

Goku doesn't give a shit about other the other universes, so he's a monster. No one else gives a shit about the other universes and are only worried about their own universe with 18 wanting money, yet no one seems to call them out on this and instead gets on Goku for being heartless.

Goku is excited for a tournament with the fate of his universe on the line and is called s sociopath. Piccolo is excited for a tournament with the universe on the line, but no one says anything.

Goku doesn't care that people sees him as evil and fans called this worrisome. 17 doesn't mind being called evil and hams it up and he's called awesome.

Goku lied to his friends, he's a terrible person. Gohan was the one who told him to lie, yet no one gets on Gohan for this, in or out of universe.

Goku isn't taking the tournament seriously and he's dicking around, so he's horrible. 17 is dicking around and he doesn't have to save stamina, yet he's seen as cool when he plays around. He's also praised for helping his teammates, despite him only helping Goku and didn't do anything to help 18 when she was nearly ringed or Krillin, yet Goku is blamed for not helping Krillin.

Goku wanted Frieza to increased U7's chances of winning when the rest of the team was willing to gamble with only having nine people, yet fans accused Goku of not being serious and not understanding the stakes.

Goku is blamed for helping other universes by letting Kale and Cali go, despite 17 and 18 being right next to him and did nothing with 17 voicing his approval, yet no one seems to care about them and solely blames Goku.

Gohan abandons his weaker team members, but absolutely no one really cares since Gohan is finally fighting, while Goku was called a terrible teammate when he broke away from the group.

I don't mind fans getting on Goku for the above, but why is he the only one constantly criticized for the above when other characters do the exact same thing or enables Goku's behavior when they don't have to listen to him?

#GokuIsInnocent
 

Laiza

Member
They shouldn't have stand up to the glorious and magnificent U7

Also not main characters
U7 and U6 got so many outs because U9 directly attacked U7 full force because they had a grudge and got wasted. U11 lost most of their members to Cali and Kale because four of their members attacked and boxed them in. U7 got involved because those five Pride Trooper were directly sent after Goku. In fact, in the first episode of the tourument, someone tried to suicide bomb Goku. Others tried to attack Gohan's circle of friends and got knocked out. Cabba got two when U3 attacked him.

Overall, U6 and U7 got directly targeted by almost everyone with most of the tourument trying to waste U7. If they spread their resources more, more universes would have KOs.
Yes, and it's Toei's fault that they were written that poorly in the first place.

I'm saying I wish every other universe fought each other more instead of tunnel-visioning on the MCs because they're so freakin' desperate to give them screen time.
 

Sony

Nintendo
Guys I'm sorry to ask a very off-topic question, but does any of you know who are the moderators for off-topic I can message to file a complaint? I can't seem to find it :(
 

caliph95

Member
Yes, and it's Toei's fault that they were written that poorly in the first place.

I'm saying I wish every other universe fought each other more instead of tunnel-visioning on the MCs because they're so freakin' desperate to give them screen time.
I wouldn't care even care as much as I do if Gohan crew had more focus and there is better match ups
 

HeroR

Member
Yes, and it's Toei's fault that they were written that poorly in the first place.

I'm saying I wish every other universe fought each other more instead of tunnel-visioning on the MCs because they're so freakin' desperate to give them screen time.

How it's Toei's fault for writing what was foreshadowed from the start. It was outright said after the Zen'o Exhibition that Goku would have a huge target on his back and we saw other universes plotting against U7 with U9 really hating U7, especially with the stunt Frieza pulled. This was build up for months.

It isn't Toei's fault that you ignored the build up.
 
I wouldn't call him useless, but there seems to be a double standard with Goku when it comes to every character in this arc:

Goku doesn't give a shit about other the other universes, so he's a monster. No one else gives a shit about the other universes and are only worried about their own universe with 18 wanting money, yet no one seems to call them out on this and instead gets on Goku for being heartless.

Goku is excited for a tournament with the fate of his universe on the line and is called s sociopath. Piccolo is excited for a tournament with the universe on the line, but no one says anything.

Goku doesn't care that people sees him as evil and fans called this worrisome. 17 doesn't mind being called evil and hams it up and he's called awesome.

Goku lied to his friends, he's a terrible person. Gohan was the one who told him to lie, yet no one gets on Gohan for this, in or out of universe.

Goku isn't taking the tournament seriously and he's dicking around, so he's horrible. 17 is dicking around and he doesn't have to save stamina, yet he's seen as cool when he plays around. He's also praised for helping his teammates, despite him only helping Goku and didn't do anything to help 18 when she was nearly ringed or Krillin, yet Goku is blamed for not helping Krillin.

Goku wanted Frieza to increased U7's chances of winning when the rest of the team was willing to gamble with only having nine people, yet fans accused Goku of not being serious and not understanding the stakes.

Goku is blamed for helping other universes by letting Kale and Cali go, despite 17 and 18 being right next to him and did nothing with 17 voicing his approval, yet no one seems to care about them and solely blames Goku.

Gohan abandons his weaker team members, but absolutely no one really cares since Gohan is finally fighting, while Goku was called a terrible teammate when he broke away from the group.

I don't mind fans getting on Goku for the above, but why is he the only one constantly criticized for the above when other characters do the exact same thing or enables Goku's behavior when they don't have to listen to him?

I disagree with a few of these. The first three are all missing the fact that his reckless/selfish actions is what kickstarted this tournament anyway. That along with those points there is what makes people call out Goku and what separates his situation from the other characters. Piccolo didn't put all of the universes on the line in the first place.

I don't think Goku messing around like he's doing is nearly as much as a problem as many people think it is, but 17 messing around just as much as Goku? Are you serious? 17 was the one who took the opportunity to blast the magical girls when no one else on the stage did. He then got chastised by Goku for it. There is a stark difference in how they are going about this tournament.
 
Because his current model is different.

rr0GfmJ.png


I think that his new model is really good. I think the problem is that they don't have a reference for him with the bang, that's why every animator does it in his own way, and it rarely works.

That's just a guess on my part seeing how every time we saw the bang it looked different.

That's basically GT Vegeta
 

J4g3r

Member
You forgot the greatest fusion of all time
G6SBnsi.png

I didn't unfortunately, I was just struggling to get it to look good enough in an avatar. The art for this one is little worse in quality compared to the others for some reason.

LQ09FmI.png


EDIT:

Maybe her SSR art? Hmm...

kALowJu.png
 

Protome

Member
How it's Toei's fault for writing what was foreshadowed from the start. It was outright said after the Zen'o Exhibition that Goku would have a huge target on his back and we saw other universes plotting against U7 with U9 really hating U7, especially with the stunt Frieza pulled. This was build up for months.

It isn't Toei's fault that you ignored the build up.
Just because it was foreshadowed doesn't mean it's good.
 

Laiza

Member
How it's Toei's fault for writing what was foreshadowed from the start. It was outright said after the Zen'o Exhibition that Goku would have a huge target on his back and we saw other universes plotting against U7 with U9 really hating U7, especially with the stunt Frieza pulled. This was build up for months.

It isn't Toei's fault that you ignored the build up.
That only explains the U9 episode, and does not justify anything at all of the following episodes (especially the Pride Trooper episode where Toppo didn't even get to participate, which was completely idiotic).

Frankly, I would've much preferred if they kept the majority of the fighters in the game until the midway point when people suddenly start getting tossed out en masse by the strongest fighters thanks to combat fatigue. The way they're handling this as a series of short, perfunctory group battles makes no damn sense to me.

And we should never, ever be seeing fighters get tossed out without even a chance to see them fight. That's just insulting.
 

HeroR

Member
I disagree with a few of these. The first three are all missing the fact that his reckless/selfish actions is what kickstarted this tournament anyway. That along with those points there is what makes people call out Goku and what separates his situation from the other characters. Piccolo didn't put all of the universes on the line in the first place.

I don't think Goku messing around like he's doing is nearly as much as a problem as many people think it is, but 17 messing around just as much as Goku? Are you serious? 17 was the one who took the opportunity to blast the magical girls when no one else on the stage did. He then got chastised by Goku for it. There is a stark difference in how they are going about this tournament.

Piccolo still doesn't care about the universe being in danger and finds it exciting. On top of that, universes were going to erased regardless of Goku's actions.

Yes. 17 has endless stamina and can literally used his full power to waste all the fodder and still be fresh. Yet, he enjoys taking his time like he did against the cat magical girl.

Just because it was foreshadowed doesn't mean it's good.

It would have been bad writing if they didn't follow through with their own statements.

That only explains the U9 episode, and does not justify anything at all of the following episodes (especially the Pride Trooper episode where Toppo didn't even get to participate, which was completely idiotic).

Frankly, I would've much preferred if they kept the majority of the fighters in the game until the midway point when people suddenly start getting tossed out en masse by the strongest fighters thanks to combat fatigue. The way they're handling this as a series of short, perfunctory group battles makes no damn sense to me.

And we should never, ever be seeing fighters get tossed out without even a chance to see them fight. That's just insulting.

No. All the universes had a grudge against Goku with Toppo outright calling Goku evil and tried to actually kill him. When the Gods of Destruction had their meeting, they despised Goku for his relationship with Zen'o. U9 just had the biggest grudge with U4's God of Destruction having a rivilary with Beerus and Champa's sibling rival.

Fodder shouldn't stick around longer than needed unless they move the plot in someway. And not all fights need to be seen. Even Yu Yu Hakusho did this when we didn't see all the teams in the Dark Tourument fight.
 
I disagree with a few of these. The first three are all missing the fact that his reckless/selfish actions is what kickstarted this tournament anyway. That along with those points there is what makes people call out Goku and what separates his situation from the other characters. Piccolo didn't put all of the universes on the line in the first place.

Goku didn't either, he just wanted a friendly tournament with the other universes, but hey he gets shit for that too.

i'm surprised Hero didn't mention it in that post.
 
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