-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DWARF FORTRESS - For real this time. - This topic is for you (yes YOU)
- Thread starter GDJustin
- Start date
I have some questions about water draining and aquifers.
I picked a small (4x4) at the boundary between 2 biomes (forest-y and mountainous) with a river running through a valley. It's a good layout, with a fair mix of stone walls and easy to cut dirt/mud walls on my main floor.
However, digging down a two levels I hit water, and the floor above that I can only cut a little bit due to damp (or whatever) walls.
Fortunately, I'm digging into one of the upper levels of a mountain side. Can I walk down the hill, dig in, and drain the water out into the valley? How quickly will water come rushing out? Can my miner escape without dying? Will it drain enough for me to excavate it safely from my main fortress?
I picked a small (4x4) at the boundary between 2 biomes (forest-y and mountainous) with a river running through a valley. It's a good layout, with a fair mix of stone walls and easy to cut dirt/mud walls on my main floor.
However, digging down a two levels I hit water, and the floor above that I can only cut a little bit due to damp (or whatever) walls.
Fortunately, I'm digging into one of the upper levels of a mountain side. Can I walk down the hill, dig in, and drain the water out into the valley? How quickly will water come rushing out? Can my miner escape without dying? Will it drain enough for me to excavate it safely from my main fortress?
platypotamus
Member
Mashing said:
My general response to evil fish with fishermen has been to not have fishermen. I believe as an alternative, if there are multiple water sources, you can designate fishing zones at the "safe" one, if such a thing exists.
It looks like Norante did indeed take his turn while I was gone, though he hasn't posted it yet. Should I go after him, or should I move to the end of the line, Justin?
Bad news: Aquifers are infinite and can't be drained. Good news: They're usually only a few Z-levels deep and if you can get "beneath" one you're usually home free. All the methods of doing so are fairly complex, however:
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Aquifer
Edit: Plat I'd say just go after Norante.
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Aquifer
Edit: Plat I'd say just go after Norante.
platypotamus
Member
Yaweee, if you are in a zone where surface water freezes, that's the easiest way to get through aquifers in my mind. Dig a big open space, so lots of water freezes. Dig through the ice. Then build some walls to hold the stuff back before it thaws. Make sure you have lots of blocks or logs for the walls!
GDJustin said:
Darn.
Fortunately, the upper levels of the mountain where I am have an absolute ton of stone (don't remember what it is, but it is grey walls with a pound sign, and brown walls with a plus on them). I can strip mine the mountaintop to get what I need.
I can also go across the valley, but the river is in the way (the bubbly type). I know I can walk across it, but is it possible to built a bridge from a higher z-level to the other side of the gulch? I don't want to get owned by pike and then drown to death.
-Are all damp walls aquifers, or could there just be an underground lake on the other side?
Lonewolf_92
Member
Yaweee said:
Damp stone can show up where ever there is water near, whether it is on that Z-level, or just above or below it.
I'm confused.
I read all of Something Awful forums' Let's Play on DF, and I've read most of this thread, but I haven't played the game yet myself.
This z-level thing, is that a different version of the game from the normal one? Because from SA's Let's Play I was under the impression the game was strictly 2D (except for the 3D graphics version).
Adding a third dimension seems like it'd make the game too complex.
I read all of Something Awful forums' Let's Play on DF, and I've read most of this thread, but I haven't played the game yet myself.
This z-level thing, is that a different version of the game from the normal one? Because from SA's Let's Play I was under the impression the game was strictly 2D (except for the 3D graphics version).
Adding a third dimension seems like it'd make the game too complex.
Nessus said:
Old versions of the game were 2D, by my recollection. New versions are 3D though.
At any given time, you're looking at a 2D map, but pressing specified keys will +/- which z level you're looking at. It's pretty intuitive after a while, and there's quite a few programs out there that will render your current fort into 3D for you to look at.
Nessus said:
The game used to be 2D. Digging to the right into the mountain was equiv to digging "down."
But quite a while ago (late 2007 I think?) a HUGE revision was released, and moved the game to 3D, among tons of other sweeping changes.
It's not as confusing as you might think. You still view one "layer" at a time, but the map is made up of 12+ layers. So pressing the layer up / down key is like moving your viewpoint up/down a flight of stairs
platypotamus
Member
Woo-Fu said:[ARTIFACTS:NO]
That is my solution to DF spawning strange moods that require materials I cannot provide. My legendary crafstmen get there the old-fashioned way.
Woo you like to take all of the fun out of DF don't you? :lol
Ok so I made it pretty deep into the complete newb tutorial. I have two questions, can someone give me a simpler explanation of how stairs/down stairs/updown stairs work? The part where they explain all the various steps you need just to dig down a level and I could follow but don't really understand the concept.
Also, whats the commands for engraving walls/floors?
I enjoy the game a ton but there seem to be a few fundamental things I don't get. I still don't quite understand the 3D plain. Also is there anything "wrong" about the theory of I could build walls around the entire entrance floor to my fort as good security measures?
Also, whats the commands for engraving walls/floors?
I enjoy the game a ton but there seem to be a few fundamental things I don't get. I still don't quite understand the 3D plain. Also is there anything "wrong" about the theory of I could build walls around the entire entrance floor to my fort as good security measures?
It's a perfectly good idea, it's really useful in case of siege. Usually I try to make a large zone inside the walls, large enough for trading and a little farming. If there is water on the map a large channel all around is nice too, and some traps all around the bridge. Then some floor above the wall and fortification for my marksdwarf. With that you're quite at ease during siege.
Woo-Fu
Banned
platypotamus said:
No, I just find other things entertaining. Sometimes it is impossible to satisfy the needs of one of those moods. That takes every bit of fun out of it for me. I'd have to assume I'm not alone, after all it IS a configurable setting.
Imagine playing Fire Emblem where every 3rd map it randomly decides to kill one of your best/favorite characters? You can't simply play the mission over, one of your characters is arbitrarily killed off, nothing you can do. Not just once, but periodically.
Imagine playing Baldur's Gate II and having Minsc die randomly, with nothing whatsoever you can do about it?
SirPenguin
Member
Yeah...if you're going to go to such lengths to preserve your fort you might as well just savescum. That way you can experience all the cool things (very few things match the awesome factor of artifacts) and if something doesn't go your way you can always reload
Blue Geezer
Member
i think i have created a monster....
i have been hiding behind traps for the past few years and as such i have started to become quite bloated sitting at 151 dwarves! my military has been sparring endlessly to the point of having 8 champions...
along comes 3/4 ambushes enough to get past the traps based on their brethrens corpses alone. i set the military to duty and in comes Eowyn (yeah im bored name wise) champion hammerdwarf and beats the shit out of 9 goblins solo and chases the last one off! quick check shows he is wearing plate AND chain mail and weilding a hammer in each hand! legend!
btw the well worked thanks woo-fu.
i have been hiding behind traps for the past few years and as such i have started to become quite bloated sitting at 151 dwarves! my military has been sparring endlessly to the point of having 8 champions...
along comes 3/4 ambushes enough to get past the traps based on their brethrens corpses alone. i set the military to duty and in comes Eowyn (yeah im bored name wise) champion hammerdwarf and beats the shit out of 9 goblins solo and chases the last one off! quick check shows he is wearing plate AND chain mail and weilding a hammer in each hand! legend!
btw the well worked thanks woo-fu.
SpinningFrog
Member
Some more pics of my current fort, I rather like my layout. I dug a pit out of a mountain, then built walls around it and only one way in/out with two bridges.
I know it's rather messy, currently working on moving all their crap into chests, I just moved all 90 of them from the upper level down to some brand new bedrooms, moving 90 beds/doors takes time.
and finally some of my stats, I know I have 30 farming dwarves. I like my small army of 20 champions, makes me happy.
I just wish those jerk Goblins would actually come and try me, They've only sent one goblin snatcher so far, and he was destroyed in seconds. The koblolds have sent several thieves, but they always run as soon as they see my dwarves rushing out to pound them into dust.
I know it's rather messy, currently working on moving all their crap into chests, I just moved all 90 of them from the upper level down to some brand new bedrooms, moving 90 beds/doors takes time.
and finally some of my stats, I know I have 30 farming dwarves. I like my small army of 20 champions, makes me happy.
I just wish those jerk Goblins would actually come and try me, They've only sent one goblin snatcher so far, and he was destroyed in seconds. The koblolds have sent several thieves, but they always run as soon as they see my dwarves rushing out to pound them into dust.
Woo-Fu
Banned
TheOneGuy said:
Calling DF fortress mode a rogue-like doesn't work either. Either you don't know what you're talking about or you're thinking of Adventure Mode.
...and as far as story goes, I've played every Fire Emblem that has come to the US and I couldn't tell you what the story was in any of them.
You didn't read what I posted. I don't think artifacts are cool. Most of them are no more than useless junk. Why deal with savescumming when I can just disable artifacts? Instead of coming up with reasons I'm playing it wrong and you're playing it right, why not just acknowledge that different people play DF for different reasons?SirPenguin said:
For you it would be fun if your tinker toys randomly caught fire now and then, for me it wouldn't be.
Novaoblivion
Member
I started playing this game after seeing this thread and I am horribly addicted :lol. I have also addicted my family members to it as well now!
I did specify it was a different kind of roguelike.Woo-Fu said:
I know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't presume you know me just because you happen to be wrong.
And just because you ignore the story in FE doesn't mean it's not a story-heavy game. It just means you're ignoring the story... The fact remains that the comparison just plain does not work.
SirPenguin
Member
Actually, Woo Fu, this is probably the first time I've ever been able to say someone is actually play a game incorrectly. Like, I'm glad you're having fun and all, but you are not playing the game the way Toady intended. And that's really all there is to it. It doesn't help you have this air of superiority about you and your bizarre ways
The life in DF is not perfect. And you can be sure that's on purpose. Your favorite champion can have his throat slit during a sparring incident. That's just the way it goes.
"Losing is Fun", duder
edit: and the people who don't think DF is a roguelike are stupid and silly. The word does not mean "a game that is like Rogue" but rather defines a genre where many games fall. These include ASCII graphics, a focus on randomization/procedural generation, and a limited save. Death is permanent. DF is definitely a roguelike no matter how you slice it
The life in DF is not perfect. And you can be sure that's on purpose. Your favorite champion can have his throat slit during a sparring incident. That's just the way it goes.
"Losing is Fun", duder
edit: and the people who don't think DF is a roguelike are stupid and silly. The word does not mean "a game that is like Rogue" but rather defines a genre where many games fall. These include ASCII graphics, a focus on randomization/procedural generation, and a limited save. Death is permanent. DF is definitely a roguelike no matter how you slice it
I agree that in its purest form, that is what a roguelike is. But DF has tons of qualities that a traditional roguelike has.GDJustin said:
Like SirPenguin said!
All of this is entirely true. Though, IMO, ASCII graphics are not necessary. (See: Spelunky. Not to mention custom tilesets.) It's just something that is often the case.SirPenguin said:
Randomization and limited saves/permadeath are the most important qualities.
Lonewolf_92
Member
BlaneH said:
Just think of it this way, with Up or down only stairs, you're only building half the stair. If you build an "Up Stair", you need to mate it with a "Down Stair" or "Up/Down Stair" on the Z-level above to complete it. They're useful to cap off a stair well if you don't want to dig into the next z-level above or below the level you're working on for whatever reason (like lava or "Happy Fun Stuff"). With the "Up/Down Stair" set, you're building stairs that lead up toward the ceiling (or sky) and down into the floor of the z-level you're working on. Imagine stepping out into a stairwell on a non-top or ground floor, that's what an Up/Down Stair is like. They still need to be mated with an "Up Stair", "Down Stair", or "Up/Down Stair" to complete it
BlaneH said:
From the top menu, [d]esignate, then [e]ngrave and select the area to be engraved. You can only engrave surfaces you've
BlaneH said:
It's a decent short term protection if you don't need access to the surface (a better, and materially cheaper, method would be a stone or metal hatch or vertical grate connected by mechanisms to a lever so it can be sealed when not in use). Generally a castle-like enclosing wall surrounded by a channeled moat of water, lava, vicious animals, or constructed spikes, with a functioning draw bridge is a better long term protection investment. Especially when the Greenskins start bringing Trolls with them. Trolls (along with a few other creatures) can destroy constructed objects like walls if they can touch them.
As far as the "Is DF a Rogue-like or not debate" I'd throw my hat in with those who feel it is, but I feel it's a unique entry in the genre, sort of a SRPG to the typical rogue-like dungeon crawler RPG. Both types fall under the genre of RPGs even though they are very dissimilar.
I'm honestly stunned at how many of you consider DF a roguelike. I think you're being blinded by the game's "graphics."
DF is as much a Roguelike as Sim City is. They're COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GENRES. Like... I honestly don't even know how to formulate a rebuttle because what I'm hearing just sounds that ridiculous to me. It's like someone claiming... I don't know... that Halo and Gran Turismo are the same genre. How do you even begin to argue with that.
Just about the only thing they have in common is randomly generated maps/scenarios. And the ASCII art. Permadeath and some of the other elements mentioned don't count, either. Sim City cities can be fucked up permanently too, if you don't revert a save.
DF is as much a Roguelike as Sim City is. They're COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GENRES. Like... I honestly don't even know how to formulate a rebuttle because what I'm hearing just sounds that ridiculous to me. It's like someone claiming... I don't know... that Halo and Gran Turismo are the same genre. How do you even begin to argue with that.
Just about the only thing they have in common is randomly generated maps/scenarios. And the ASCII art. Permadeath and some of the other elements mentioned don't count, either. Sim City cities can be fucked up permanently too, if you don't revert a save.
Not even close.GDJustin said:
"Though, IMO, ASCII graphics are not necessary. (See: Spelunky. Not to mention custom tilesets.) It's just something that is often the case."
Think about the unique features of the roguelike.
You have dungeon crawlers. Not all dungeon crawlers are roguelikes. Roguelikes feature: randomization/procedural generation, permadeath, limited saves.
Now compare DF to other games in the same city/life-sim genre. DF features: randomization/procedural generation, permadeath, limited saves.
I will never argue that DF is a traditional roguelike. Its father may be city/life-sim, but its mother is most definitely roguelike.
SirPenguin
Member
GDJustin said:
Likewise, I think you're being blinded by the fact DF has a city builder mode. DF shares all of the DEFINING qualities a roguelike has which make it a subgenre in the first place. As stated, it focuses heavily on randomization, permanent actions (like death), and ASCII or at the very least 2D graphics as opposed to a 3D world.
And the similarities don't just end in the defining characteristics. It also shares all the typical strengths and weaknesses of the genre, such as an overly complicated interface, a steep learning curve, and a good deal of replayability.
Let's not get caught up on a rigid definition of a word, you know? DF isn't missing a single aspect of the genre, it just so happens to include a little bit more, and I don't think that's reason enough to exclude it
That just doesn't work, because Sim Cities CAN'T be permanently fucked up unless you choose to. You can save any time you want, such as before a big project or whatever, and revert back to it through typical means.
You cannot do this in DF without cheating, which involves either manually copying your save directory to make multiple "files" or killing the df.exe process to prevent the Save + Exit function from executing. That's what they mean by "permanent", and they they call such practices "savescum"ing
Anyways, I'd say most people acknowledge its a roguelike when classifying it. I mean hell, it's on the RogueBasin, one of the larger (the largest?) wikipedia to discuss roguelikes
SpinningFrog
Member
Yep, as they all stated above it's the Mayday tileset.
Woo-Fu
Banned
TheOneGuy said:
It isn't a rogue-like in any way, shape or form. You don't know what you're talking about. The comparison that doesn't work is you calling fortress mode a roguelike. It is patently absurd.
Rogue-likes are adventure games, usually featuring random maps, and usually have some ultimate goal at the bottom of the randomly-generated dungeon. Other common features of the genre include having to discover what the items you find actually are, permadeath, and basic D&D-like character progression.
Dwarf Fortress in Fortress Mode is nothing like that, not even remotely. If you really think DF is a rogue-like, I'm going to have to assume that in you think Civilization is a rogue-like, that the various Sim* games are rogue-likes.
The hilarious part of this is that DF in Adventure mode IS A ROGUE-LIKE. Keyword being Adventure mode. I can only assume that you have never played DF in Fortress mode or that you have some form of progressive brain damage.
Woo-Fu
Banned
SirPenguin said:
Every game during the era rogue-likes originated featured ASCII graphics. Was every game a Rogue-like? Most games also featured permadeath of some sort. Was every game a Rogue-like?
Randomization in Rogue-likes is usually new levels every single time you load your character back up. A DF game on the other hand has a preset world, that yes, was randomly generated, but once that world is generated it lives as its own entity. Every time you load your fortress the world is just the way you left it. None of the z-levels get randomly recreated each time you visit them.
People seem to be blinded by an interface that can be more accurately associated with an era, than with a particular genre.
SirPenguin
Member
Honestly, all this genre talk really is interesting. It helps answer the question, "What is a genre?" And it does it in a much more interesting way than the typical "Zelda isn't/is an RPG" or "Super Smash Bros. is/isn't a fighter" arguments.
anyways, there is no question to me that DF is a roguelike, and there is no question to you that it isn't. I don't think either side will see eye-to-eye, so I guess we'll have to do the agree to disagree thing, eh?
anyways, there is no question to me that DF is a roguelike, and there is no question to you that it isn't. I don't think either side will see eye-to-eye, so I guess we'll have to do the agree to disagree thing, eh?
Woo-Fu
Banned
SirPenguin said:
So when was the last time you chatted with Toady on the official forums about how the game was intended to be played? By all means give us some quotes. I'd be particularly interested in the quotes relating to why there are gameplay options in the init.txt file.
Trying to say there is some way a sim is meant to be played misses the point of it being a sim in the first place. The point of a sim is to see what happens when you do different things, try different approaches, "play the game" in a different style and/or fashion. I've already worked through the possible outcomes related to artifact creation, I'm not interested in them anymore, so I disabled them with the option that is in the init.txt file, clearly labeled as such, presumably so players can disable them if they want.
What you think is a superior attitude is just experience with the mechanics of the game. I know how many of them work, I've probably racked up over a 1000 hours figuring out exactly how they work through trial and error. If I tell you that method A is more effective than method B to accomplish some particular thing in the game odds are pretty good that I'm correct and that I've tried both methods multiple times. I'm still open to new methods, tactics, strategies, and finding them is why I continue to play DF.
Present some yourself in the thread and I'll be sure to make a note of them for my current/next fortress.
SirPenguin said:
A rogue-like is a DUNGEON CRAWLER. That's what defines it. EVERYTHING else can change (random, not random, realtime, turn-based, ASCII or graphics), but for it to be a roguelike is MUST be a dungeon crawler at it's foundation.
Edit: Sites like Rogue basin that include DF are doing so because of adventure mode, not fortress mode.
platypotamus
Member
Soooo uh... what happened to Norante?
Woo-Fu
Banned
Blue Geezer said:
Good to hear about the well.
You can cap population and birthrate in the init.txt file if you want. I do this not so much to limit my population but to keep my framerate reasonable. Somewhere around 80-100 dwarfs will get you every feature currently implemented in the game.
As for sieges, my latest method is to build a large maze.
example image:
When I get the siege warning, I retract the main entrance bridge, extend that 5-unit bridge in the top right corner, extend the bridge just to the lower left of the weapon trap fieldand forbid my dwarfs to go outside.
The goal with the maze was to make it long enough that I could get every enemy in the siege into the maze before a) I closed the back door, and b) I killed enough of them to make them drop the siege. As soon as the last enemy crosses the nw bridge, I retract it, trapping them in the maze. The maze was too long at first, it seemed to mess up the pathing to the point that groups would get stuck going back and forth trying to reform on their leader, so I took out the NE set of switchbacks.
Along the left side of the maze you'll notice a series of floodgates, I open these gates up whenever I send my dwarfs to harvest the iron, dump the corpses/junk. That red dot in the alcove is a dump area that drops right into magma. I enable it when cleaning up after a siege and disable it at all other times.
The area to the left where you see all the crossbow bolts in the hallway is the killzone, only one or two leaders/heroes make it past the killzone and they get killed by the weapon trap field which is made up primarily of copper spears that my legendary weaponsmith skilled up on.
One z-level above the maze I have a military post with food/booze/dining room and individual bedrooms for the champions. The set of fortifications on the left overlooks the killzone of the maze, the set on the right overlooks the main entry to the trade depot. I station the champion marksdwarfs depending on which path I've enabled into the fortress. You'll notice the spot over the killzone has a huge stockpile of crossbow bolts. That way the dwarfs only have to move a space or two to reload. Dealing with fired crossbow bolts is tedious and time-consuming. I've modded the raws for iron and steel so that they will melt in magma so I just throw away everything in the killzone that isn't metal armor/weapons.
Putting the fortifications 1 z-level above the maze costs me a bit of range, but prevents any non-flying enemy from accurately shooting through the fortifications at my dwarfs.
For megabeasts I just leave the main entry open, the ones that can make it through the weapon traps get caged and are added to the menagerie.
Military outpost above the main entry and the killzone of the siege maze:
Anyways, build something like this where you can kill every enemy in a siege and do so close to your forges and you'll have no shortage of iron to work with.