Support NeoGAF

[flabberghastly]

While this might be getting a bit pedantic with the semantics, I really wish we could drop this whole quasi-modernist unilinear conception of "progress" for a second and realize that not everything "advances" along the same path.

It's only accurate to claim something is "ahead" of something else if the something else later adopts precisely the same thing the former something has/did - in which case, saying something is "ahead" of something else is only accurate from a retrospective frame. Moreover, even in this capacity, the something that is "ahead" is not necessarily superior to the something else that is supposedly "behind"; it only means that it has/did something first that the other will later adopt.

What we have are different, competing architectures, which achieve different things for different, similar, or even the same purposes. So, sure, maybe the PS4 or XBO will at some point in the future be considered "ahead" if PCs eventually adopt the exact same sort of technology (I suspect this will not exactly be the case, and that while some PCs (laptops being the likeliest candidates) will do similar or even the same things, they will do it in different ways or within different configurations, making such a point only partially applicable), but that does not in any way mean that they are superior to current PC technology; in fact, the highest echelon of current PCs absolutely crushes the output of these consoles months before they arrive.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Titans don't scale that well... you can't just shove more GPUs into a box and that somehow makes it faster.

You'd make it worse too, 4 frames of input lag instead of 1, I don't think there is a single gamer who can tolerate 4 frames of input lag (well except for killzone 2 fans, ZING)

(I'm assuming you'd use 4 titans in a situation where you need em to reach 60 fps, noone has a 300 hz monitor, so 4 frames at 60 fps = 64 ms of extra input lag, that's no longer playable.
Even on a 144 hz monitor the added input lag defeats the entire purpose of why you 'd want to be playing at a higher framerate to begin with)


Haha stallion is up to some artisan level trolling.

 

[WarMacheen]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's time to face facts, and unless you're an uber partisan, you'll accept that PC just isn't powerful enough.

lol, I hope you're being sarcastic.

 

[trmas]

PC gamers are a different breed. They are the true hardcore, spending thousands every few years to just stay ahead of the curve. I always thought it insane to spend hundreds of dollars on the next graphics card, but these people do it without a thought.

This is market speak, and no more.

 

[TheD]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's time to face facts, and unless you're an uber partisan, you'll accept that PC just isn't powerful enough.

I hope you are joking.

 

[statham]

LOL, I new to work on my thread titles.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=563237

 

[4lejandro]

I don't understand the butthurt of all the PC guys, let's game on whatever we have on hand, be it a mobile phone, a handheld, a console or a PC. I know PC is more POWERFUL, you know it, everybody knows it.

It's just that consoles are easier to program for, in the sense that there's only one hardware profile to optimize for (or two), PC's modular designs give it so much advantages on the long run but it ultimately hurts gaming in some ways, as they're not dedicated machines and even if they where some, there wouldn't make much financial sense to develop exclusive versions for a specific hardware configuration.

Not everyone can spend hundreds of dollars and the time needed to update hardware, drivers, look for esoteric fixes and try various configurations, I prefer to spend that time playing a game that will work no matter what (in that sense the more consoles become like pc's, the more we struggle with patches, buggy software that gets released early, etc). I say all of this as a true tinkerer (emulation enthusiast, guitar player, car nut) so it's not a lazyness related rant.

You PC extremists have the mod scene, and I am jealous for that

Edit: I really see the potential of the steambox, but that would be like another console in a way...

 

[BradleyLove]

Architecture does not equal performance. Is that really hard to understand?

New gen low-end GPUs are are often outperformed by high-end previous gen GPUs. That doesn't change the fact the architecture is newer.

It seems maths and reading comprehension is dropping like a stone lately.

 

[SSM25]

No they are not.. They are blown away by the monster gaming PCs out there

 

[4lejandro]

Architecture does not equal performance. Is that really hard to understand?

New gen low-end GPUs are are often outperformed by high-end previous gen GPUs. That doesn't change the fact the architecture is newer.

It seems maths and reading comprehension is dropping like a stone lately.

I agree!

But it's easier to just read the headline and ignore the OP lol.

 

[QaaQer]

Apparently he's talking about the "architecture" of these systems, not their performace. Not that this would stop news sites from slapping on a misleading headline to get more clicks, of course. The performance numbers he's quoting (8-10x) are more or less in line with the expected performace of the PS4 and the Xbox One based on their hardware. And of course they are much, much lower than a current high-end PC.

gotta love the knee jerkers. Having the cpu and gpu be able to do work on the same area of memory is something PCs cannot do. It is a fact, #dealwithit.

 

[QaaQer]

I wish they'd admit that the consoles aren't as powerful as PC.

EA guy did, kinda. he said the ps4 if 8-10X more powerful than current gen consoles.

 

[chickdigger802]

Read the OP, or even the title folks.

Nothing wrong with the statement.

 

[kpjolee]

Key word is "architecturally", not the raw performance.

 

[scently]

Wait, what is the argument here? He made several statements in the article which are absolutely true. He states that both system are based on architecture that is more advanced than what is currently on PC, and he is right. He also says that these systems are 8-10 times more powerful than the current systems, and he is also right in this. Nowhere in this article did he say that the PS4 and the XOne are more powerful than current PCs.

The article is written in simple and plain english so I don't understand why we have two (or 4) pages saying he is wrong when his statement is straightforward.

Even his claim for the removal of rationing of resources can easily be understood as the FLOPS in these system can now be use more dynamically as a result of GPGPU and gpu compute as opposed to the current gen systems where this is not possible. I don't need to go into details about what that entail as I am sure there are people more knowledgeable than me in this very thread, and yet we are saying he is wrong when infact he isn't. So.....

 

[Woo-Fu]

A Taco Bell is architecturally generations ahead of The Four Seasons. Come on people, ease down. Your high-end PC is still going to outdo consoles, and is still going to be more expensive than those consoles.

The same balance of power will exist, along with most of the same trade-offs.

 

[SneakyStephan]

A Taco Bell is architecturally generations ahead of The Four Seasons. Come on people, ease down. Your high-end PC is still going to outdo consoles, and is still going to be more expensive than those consoles.

The same balance of power will exist, along with most of the same trade-offs.

Naw, a 250 euro gpu upgrade at the end of the year will be >>> ps4

Wheres that 250 euro upgrade to turn my ps3 into a ps4 +?

 

[Barack Lesnar]

I think he means overall architecture elegance.

Unified memory, HSA, dedicated units for video/audio, Compute setup etc.

On PC's you have to constantly copy data between Video memory and System memory, huge buffers to accommodate the modular nature etc.

I recommend everyone to read Mark Cerny's breakdown of the PS4: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This right here. I interpreted the quotes in the same way, and the EA guy is right. Far more advanced architecture than PCs.

 

[USC-fan]

You guys are forgetting to add the power of the cloud. It just destroys your high end PC.

 

[JonathanPower]

What he says is true. Until AMD will bring a high end HSA solution on PC, the PS4 architecture is a generation ahead compared to the old PCIe interface. HSA is a lot faster for supercomputing stuff. This has nothing to do with GPU power, as even the most powerful GPU on the market won't make the PCIe bus any faster.

 

[EMT0]

PC gamers are a different breed. They are the true hardcore, spending thousands every few years to just stay ahead of the curve. I always thought it insane to spend hundreds of dollars on the next graphics card, but these people do it without a thought.

This is market speak, and no more.

I don't understand the butthurt of all the PC guys, let's game on whatever we have on hand, be it a mobile phone, a handheld, a console or a PC. I know PC is more POWERFUL, you know it, everybody knows it.

It's just that consoles are easier to program for, in the sense that there's only one hardware profile to optimize for (or two), PC's modular designs give it so much advantages on the long run but it ultimately hurts gaming in some ways, as they're not dedicated machines and even if they where some, there wouldn't make much financial sense to develop exclusive versions for a specific hardware configuration.

Not everyone can spend hundreds of dollars and the time needed to update hardware, drivers, look for esoteric fixes and try various configurations, I prefer to spend that time playing a game that will work no matter what (in that sense the more consoles become like pc's, the more we struggle with patches, buggy software that gets released early, etc). I say all of this as a true tinkerer (emulation enthusiast, guitar player, car nut) so it's not a lazyness related rant.

You PC extremists have the mod scene, and I am jealous for that

Edit: I really see the potential of the steambox, but that would be like another console in a way...

So, uh, I've got news for you guys. But as insane as it sounds, not everybody with a gaming PC drops hundreds in upgrades every year. Crazy I know, but hear me out here.

That takes money. Money which we don't spend that freely unless we've got stacks of it lying around. So yeah, I know, crazy, but yeah. No PC upgrading every year for most of us.

 

[SneakyStephan]

What he says is true. Until AMD will bring a high end HSA solution on PC, the PS4 architecture is a generation ahead compared to the old PCIe interface. HSA is a lot faster for supercomputing stuff. This has nothing to do with GPU power, as even the most powerful GPU on the market won't make the PCIe bus any faster.

Geforce titan can't even saturate pcie 2.0 8x, let alone pcie 16x, the pcie bus is not an issue for years to come.

Sounds like you got scammed into upgrading for no reason if you believe otherwise.

 

[TOAO_Cyrus]

In terms of the amount of (GDDR5) ram, PS4 definetly is a generation ahead of the highest end GPU.

edit: forgot to mention amount

A single pool of GDDR5 is actually worse then a large amount of low latency DDR3 + GDDR5 for graphics. There is a reason GDDR is never used as system ram on PC's.

 

[Durante]

gotta love the knee jerkers. Having the cpu and gpu be able to do work on the same area of memory is something PCs cannot do. It is a fact, #dealwithit.

As I have learned in this thread that performance is in fact irrelevant when talking about architecture, this is not true. Intel CPUs and their integrated GPUs have been able to work in the same memory space since Sandy Bridge at least. I can cite some papers using this functionality.

 

[daveo42]

Maybe he talking about the SoC being the next step in PC technology? Maybe? Right? Guys?

 

[chris3116]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's time to face facts, and unless you're an uber partisan, you'll accept that PC just isn't powerful enough.

I hope you're joking. The PC will destroy the PS4 and Xbox One when they will release. Maybe now in architecture, it's an other thing. But in less than 6 months if not now, they will be obsolete.

 

[Stallion Free]

What he says is true. Until AMD will bring a high end HSA solution on PC, the PS4 architecture is a generation ahead compared to the old PCIe interface. HSA is a lot faster for supercomputing stuff. This has nothing to do with GPU power, as even the most powerful GPU on the market won't make the PCIe bus any faster.

Will any next-gen game actually be able to max out the transfer through a PCIe bus?

 

[JonathanPower]

Geforce titan can't even saturate pcie 2.0 8x, let alone pcie 16x, the pcie bus is not an issue for years to come.

Sounds like you got scammed into upgrading for no reason if you believe otherwise.

This statement doesn't even make sense. By definition, any bus can be saturated.

Will any next-gen game actually be able to max out the transfer through a PCIe bus?

http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1711211&postcount=16

If the PS4 or XB720 leverage shared computation between the CPU and GPU to significant effect, there are cases where PC setups can suffer if they run into PCIe latency/bandwidth restrictions. Discrete products may also lag behind the consoles in terms of shared memory space, compared to consoles that will have it at the outset.

Why not stuck an Orbis-like chip on a graphics board and call it a new generation? Even a few cores could, with the help of the driver or HSA runtime, actually make some of the general GPU processing workloads that are dominated by copy and PCIe overhead reasonable to use.

 

[Durante]

This statement doesn't even make sense. By definition, any bus can be saturated.

But will it be a significantly limiting factor with any realistic game workload?

I guess next-gen multiplatform title comparisons between a "highest-end" PC and consoles will tell us.

 

[TheDrowningMan]

I hope you're joking. The PC will destroy the PS4 and Xbox One when they will release. Maybe now in architecture, it's an other thing. But in less than 6 months if not now, they will be obsolete.

My thoughts on EA's patented bullshit aren't hard to decipher. Their desire to downplay things that aren't their highest priority is bordering on fetishistic.

Enjoy four years of 'last-gen' FIFA, PC gamers; please understand that results aren't satisfactory for Ignite at this point.

 

[TheD]

As I have learned in this thread that performance is in fact irrelevant when talking about architecture, this is not true. Intel CPUs and their integrated GPUs have been able to work in the same memory space since Sandy Bridge at least. I can cite some papers using this functionality.

Ohh, can I have a link to the papers?

 

[TheDrowningMan]

But will it be a significantly limiting factor with any realistic game workload?

I guess next-gen multiplatform title comparisons between a "highest-end" PC and consoles will tell us.

I wonder if Thief PC will run at 30fps / 1080p maxed out on a decent gaming set-up.

 

[Ushae]

Has this turned into a PC Master race VS XBO/PS4 thread?

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Durante]

Ohh, can I have a link to the papers?

This is the most interesting one, from this years' SIGGRAPH.

I wonder if Thief PC will run at 30fps / 1080p maxed out on a decent gaming set-up.

I wonder if the architecture can handle that.

 

[TheDrowningMan]

Has this turned into a PC Master race VS XBO/PS4 thread?

*grabs popcorn*

It should be everyone VS EA obfuscation and nothing more.

 

[TheD]

This is the most interesting one, from this years' SIGGRAPH.

I wonder if the architecture can handle that.

Thanks.

 

[1st Course]

But will it be a significantly limiting factor with any realistic game workload?

I guess next-gen multiplatform title comparisons between a "highest-end" PC and consoles will tell us.

This is really the only sensible thing to say for now.

 

[Setsuna]

You'd make it worse too, 4 frames of input lag instead of 1, I don't think there is a single gamer who can tolerate 4 frames of input lag (well except for killzone 2 fans, ZING)

(I'm assuming you'd use 4 titans in a situation where you need em to reach 60 fps, noone has a 300 hz monitor, so 4 frames at 60 fps = 64 ms of extra input lag, that's no longer playable.
Even on a 144 hz monitor the added input lag defeats the entire purpose of why you 'd want to be playing at a higher framerate to begin with)


Haha stallion is up to some artisan level trolling.

hey hey kill zone 2 wasnt that bad in my opinion

 

[Delusibeta]

He might have half of a point with regards to the PS4's GDDR5 RAM, but high end graphics cards are coming out with 6Gb of the stuff on board before we get to the DDR3 RAM, so I don't think the difference is *that* great. The Xbone is already behind the latest PC tech.

 

[Stallion Free]

I guess next-gen multiplatform title comparisons between a "highest-end" PC and consoles will tell us.

Haven't recent demonstrations already shown the difference when it comes to the multiplats releasing this fall? BF4 on a high end PC is locked at 60 fps at a 3k resolution.

 

[JonathanPower]

But will it be a significantly limiting factor with any realistic game workload?

I guess next-gen multiplatform title comparisons between a "highest-end" PC and consoles will tell us.

For sure, this is the first time that RAM is not going to be a limiting factor on consoles, which is a good thing for PC gaming also.

 

[Karak]

Lordy. Well that was...a quote. That's for sure. Jezuz.

 

[yurinka]

How many polygons can the gddr5s make?

To have faster or with a bigger bandwith memory doesn't give you exactly more polygons, or at least directly. It's more important here how it fits in the PS4 architecture (which combined with other things will give you extra polygons in addition to extra stuff that will make it look better).
And maybe it isn't the case of X1, but consoles doesn't have a huge OS footprint in memory and CPU.

 

[MasterLeePhD]

The PC will always be the most powerful, but it's amazing what wizardry developers can pull off when they optimize their games for each console.

 

[SparkTR]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's time to face facts, and unless you're an uber partisan, you'll accept that PC just isn't powerful enough.

Yep, first Star Wars Force Unleashed, now this.

 

[Karak]

The PC will always be the most powerful, but it's amazing what wizardry developers can pull off when they optimize their games for each console.

Very true. And understanding that both these systems are many times more powerful than what we have no is cool.

Though I admit to personally being disappointed in both of them when it comes to power. But there hasn't been big technical change like unified shaders or anything to add any cool umph to these 2.

 

[AColdDay]

Honest question, I just bought a Radeon HD 7970 OC so I should be good for a while on console ports, right? It gobbles up everything currently, but I am concerned that because it only has 3 GB of ram. Do I have anything to worry about?

 

[Ramenman]

Hi guys I have no idea what hardware is but really who is this guy kidding amirite.

 

[jaz013]

Jaja, no...

Maybe a high-end PC from, what?, 5 years ago?

Gotta be sure those bros buy the new stuff!

 

[poppabk]

Wait, what is the argument here? He made several statements in the article which are absolutely true. He states that both system are based on architecture that is more advanced than what is currently on PC, and he is right. He also says that these systems are 8-10 times more powerful than the current systems, and he is also right in this. Nowhere in this article did he say that the PS4 and the XOne are more powerful than current PCs.

The article is written in simple and plain english so I don't understand why we have two (or 4) pages saying he is wrong when his statement is straightforward.

Even his claim for the removal of rationing of resources can easily be understood as the FLOPS in these system can now be use more dynamically as a result of GPGPU and gpu compute as opposed to the current gen systems where this is not possible. I don't need to go into details about what that entail as I am sure there are people more knowledgeable than me in this very thread, and yet we are saying he is wrong when infact he isn't. So.....

It was worded to generate a reaction. In terms of architecture the lowest end PC's are architecturally a generation ahead of a high end PC due to their integrated graphics.