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[Mista Koo]

So I wanted to talk about the Persona streaming thing from the other perspective, but now I can link to a Twitter thread by Zoe Quinn. In short some people would be satiated by watching a narrative-focused game that they don't want to buy it, and in the case of smaller and shorter games it actually hurts the developers.

I watched the Don't Skip for NITW and I don't think it did a good job in representing the game. The time thing wasn't well communicated. You only have to choose who to spend time with between the main characters, you can interact with all the side characters everyday. Also I feel like you shouldn't preview the game without explicitly mentioning how the game isn't exactly happy or jolly.

Finally took the plunge and started watching Evangelion

Just finished the first episode.....I really like it? I think?

I tried watching the first two episodes but it was too slow and old for my tastes. Doesn't help that about the only thing I know about Evangelion is how it ends
Will give it another shot.

 

[Anaithsol]

So I wanted to talk about the Persona streaming thing from the other perspective, but now I can link to a Twitter thread by Zoe Quinn. In short some people would be satiated by watching a narrative-focused game that they don't want to buy it, and in the case of smaller and shorter games it actually hurts the developers.

While I won't deny that streaming or playthrough videos can have a detrimental effect, it's hard to not consider the notion that a good number of those lost software sales consist of individuals who were likely never going to purchase the product in the first place even if said content wasn't available.

What I find bizarre about this whole situation is that people seem to be only focusing on the negatives (shocking!) to support this mandate issued by Atlus. It has been demonstrated, time and time again, that streaming and the hosting of recorded content has led to new interest by individuals unfamiliar to a particular title or franchise due to their favorite personality or outlet covering said title or franchise a considerable amount if not to the point of total completion. Does all that interest translate to direct sales? Most likely not, but there's certainly been a magnitude of reports of individuals purchasing a title or numerous titles from a franchise due to this exposure.

In Persona's particular case, Giant Bomb's endurance run of Persona 4 was just one avenue out of many that led to quite the boon in regards to interest and software sales. Another thing to consider with Atlus' handling of Persona 5's media presence is the fact that the game was first available to consumers roughly seven months ago and wasn't a simultaneous worldwide release. It's incredibly difficult to believe that Atlus is suddenly overly concerned about exposure to spoilers when there's content consisting of such posted just about anywhere if you're willing to look simply due to the duration between that first Japanese release and the worldwide release afterward.

Frankly said, this is Atlus trying to enforce content control as best as possible all the while disguising the attempt as a means of addressing spoiler culture and its effect on their audience. This particular concept isn't foreign to Japanese publishers, so I'm not quite sure why people are simply taking this mandate at face value as beneficial when it clearly has an ulterior motive. Is that to say that Atlus isn't concerned about their fanbase? Absolutely not, but let's not forget that this is a company concerned about sales and what they perceive as a threat to said profit as well.

 

[MultiJhonny]

Not gonna lie, your enjoyment may depend quite heavily on how you like the characters.

MultiJhonny already posted two great links, but when you're done or wanna discuss something big eith a few people without cluttering another thread, check out the Neogaf OT. No self advertising here, no sir.

Was not aware of the OT.... I will now sub to that

 

[UrbanRats]

So I wanted to talk about the Persona streaming thing from the other perspective, but now I can link to a Twitter thread by Zoe Quinn. In short some people would be satiated by watching a narrative-focused game that they don't want to buy it, and in the case of smaller and shorter games it actually hurts the developers.

As someone who watched a full playthrough of Gone Home from KayPlays, without buying the game, i can assure you there was about 0% chance i wouldve bought and played it anyway.
If the interactive element of your game adds so little to the whole experience though, id consider that a design problem.

I will say though, a streamer should add something of their own, be it commentary or a particular play style.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Are Easy Allies not going to do a livestream for Scorpio?

 

[Auctopus]

Finished my two week ban.

Are Easy Allies not going to do a livestream for Scorpio?

It's literally a Digital Foundry video upload of what is most likely some very dry statistical information. Why do people think it's going to be a mini-E3? That Xbox thread is 100+ pages.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

It's literally a Digital Foundry video upload of what is most likely some very dry statistical information. Why do people think it's going to be a mini-E3? That Xbox thread is 100+ pages.

....It's not 0_0 ?

 

[Auctopus]

....It's not 0_0 ?

Hmm? In about 15 minutes, this video will go public...

 

[Anaithsol]

It's literally a Digital Foundry video upload of what is most likely some very dry statistical information. Why do people think it's going to be a mini-E3? That Xbox thread is 100+ pages.

I have to admit, it's a bit funny seeing people expect this huge blowout of information and overall confirmation. Would I love to see Digital Foundry provide such content? Absolutely, but I seriously doubt Microsoft is willing to let such an important announcement be carried out via a relatively niche third-party outlet.

 

[Deimo5]

It's just specs and tech stuff and most of the Allies don't seem to be deeply into that kind of thing too much anyway

 

[SprachBrooks]

What's the ETA on Ben's Persona 5 review?

 

[Ultimadrago]

Don't Skip - Night in the Woods

I didn't see anyone post about it, but am glad to have woke up to this. The video and script doesn't spoil anything major while being to-the-point about where the value of the game lies. Nice job, Huber!

 

[LiquidSolid]

So I wanted to talk about the Persona streaming thing from the other perspective, but now I can link to a Twitter thread by Zoe Quinn. In short some people would be satiated by watching a narrative-focused game that they don't want to buy it, and in the case of smaller and shorter games it actually hurts the developers.

Seems awfully close to the argument companies use to justify absurd DRMs to me, just assuming people who watch streams would've bought those games if they hadn't. I'd argue that if your game is good, all streaming does is help promote it and get it out there to more people. I've bought a bunch of different games over the last few years that I only found out about or that they were good via streams or long form videos. Resident Evil 7 for one, I wouldn't have bought it when I did if Huber's stream hadn't been so awesome.

I really think Atlus dropped the ball here. Persona 5 is an incredible game and while it's definitely grown enormously compared to 4 or 4 Golden, I think it could've grown far more if they'd let streamers show others how great it is.

A couple of other thoughts on the podcast:

Man, the lack of The Longest Journey knowledge on the panel is sad. I guess at least Blood had vaguely heard about it and Jones associated it with Dreamfall. FYI, Dreamfall Chapters is the third game in the series, following The Longest Journey and Dreamfall: The Longest Journey.

I love the insight Huber and Blood offered into how much of a hassle reviews are without a proper studio. It really made it clear how huge that goal would be for EZA.

So the Scorpio, huh? Sounds almost exactly how I expected it to sounds: The PS4 Pro but a year later and with specs that reflect that. The most interesting thing about it to me is the cooling system, as it appears like that's the only reason they can clock the GPU as high as they are.

 

[Anaithsol]

What's the ETA on Ben's Persona 5 review?

I believe he said on the Persona 5 stream that he was very close to beating the game, so it should be sent in for editing relatively soon.

 

[Holundrian]

I'm just going to say that if Persona 5 didn't have the stream restrictions I could have at least convinced 2 more people getting it on launch.

 

[Axass]

Finally took the plunge and started watching Evangelion

Just finished the first episode.....I really like it? I think?

Shinji whining at the end was a red flag, and my understanding is that's a good majority of the show. Lol. Cool stuff though. I'm watching the dub and it's way more "saturday morning cartoon" than I was expecting. Makes it all the more intriguing that the later episodes apparently go off the deep end into existentialism and depression or whatever

Credits sequence is pure class

EDIT: Episode 2 starts.................ughhhhhhhhhhhh

Evangelion is my favourite anime. So many feels, so much confusion.

In fact by the end you may need to reference an external source to understand it.

Especially if you're going to watch the movie.

...tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling dooooown...

So I wanted to talk about the Persona streaming thing from the other perspective, but now I can link to a Twitter thread by Zoe Quinn. In short some people would be satiated by watching a narrative-focused game that they don't want to buy it, and in the case of smaller and shorter games it actually hurts the developers.

That's the old piracy and DRM argument. Most people who are satiated by watching a game instead of buying it wouldn't have bought it anyway for a variety of reasons. By restricting streaming you just lose good will and gain basically nil in sales, in fact you're stifling your primary channel of free advertisement.

What Atlus did is a draconian and "old man" approach to streaming. One could say they're throwing gasoline on a non-situation. wink wink

 

[Burt]

I liked the Night in the Woods Don't Skip and really appreciate Huber playing it and getting the video out so fast, but I think the script could've stood to have a few things shifted around.

The main thing is that I wasn't sure what type of game I was looking at until 2/3rds through the video, despite the video already having covered intricacies like the amateur poet and astrologer

Spoiler

astronomer

. I wasn't sure if I was looking at a platformer, or a 2D 'walking sim', or an RPG-lite with knife fight combat for most of the video.

Burying some of the boilerplate info deeper into the script works fine with a longer video centered on a more well-known game, but with these 3 minute videos on subjects more niche, I think you need to open with the videogame equivalent of who/what/where/when/why/how so that the audience has a framework in which to understand the rest of the video.

"Night in the Woods is a surreal narrative-focused adventure game that uses a beautiful storybook artstyle to mask a somber, mature story, and this is why it's a Don't Skip."

Not that you have to hit the nail on the head quite that hard (Hollow Knight just said 'Metroidvania' towards the start and that was enough), but it's just something to keep in mind for future DSs.

 

[_Ryo_]

Can that Once Upon a time Easy Update be a new pilot for a new series. I loved it.

 

[Ray Down]

So I wanted to talk about the Persona streaming thing from the other perspective, but now I can link to a Twitter thread by Zoe Quinn. In short some people would be satiated by watching a narrative-focused game that they don't want to buy it, and in the case of smaller and shorter games it actually hurts the developers.

But how many of those people were willing to buy it any way, let alone for full price.

I really doubt having this game being stream will have some huge detrimental effect on the games sales.

What numbers you can lose out I doubt are really worth bad PR and just cause more issues with regarding protecting your game story than your stupid policies.

Let alone your disabling basic functions of your game systems due to stuff like this which just insane when no one else does.

 

[emb]

If people want spoilers, they can get them. You can't stop all videos from getting out, you can't stop people from talking. Maybe society is changing a little bit, in that just spectating is good enough for some people. But that's no reason to punish legitimate consumers and dictate what they can and can't do with a game. So it's kinda like the piracy debate in that sense, but with a lot less justification on the dev/publisher side.

People that watch instead of playing are doing themselves a disservice though. You being involved in the journey is what makes it fun. Perhaps people are just getting an alternative sense of involvement from interacting with streamers. In that case though, it doesn't matter what's getting streamed, that viewer would go watch something instead of going and buying Persona.

 

[Ray Down]

If people want spoilers, they can get them.

Especially for a game that's been out for 5 months +.

 

[Anaithsol]

People that watch instead of playing are doing themselves a disservice though. You being involved in the journey is what makes it fun. Perhaps people are just getting an alternative sense of involvement from interacting with streamers. In that case though, it doesn't matter what's getting streamed, that viewer would go watch something instead of going and buying Persona.

I'll be honest, I enjoy games like Persona a whole lot more when I'm serving as a spectator who has a varying level of input. It's not to say that the franchise is superficial or lacking in actual gameplay, it just works better for me as I find the character interactions the highlight amidst everything else.

It's always interesting to see how family, friends, and various streamers make different choices and approach a given situation. This recent mandate issued by Atlus killed nearly all of the excitement I had going for the international release and a potential playthrough by Ben. I can't even normally watch friends or family play through the game either unless I head to their physical location as they'll essentially be in danger once they reach a certain point in the game.

Just so it's said: I have purchased a copy of the original Japanese release, but I can't be bothered to purchase an English copy after all this hubbub. It's not directly due Atlus' decision that I'm making this choice, but it certainly didn't help.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Don't Skip - Night in the Woods

I didn't see anyone post about it, but am glad to have woke up to this. The video and script doesn't spoil anything major while being to-the-point about where the value of the game lies. Nice job, Huber!

What's with the sound in this vid? Brandon sounds really off, almost muffled.

 

[Ray Down]

At least SE is now acknowledging worldwide release near or close by are important.

Though I wish this would mean something for DQ.

 

[sora87]

Podcast was really enjoyable this week, great discussions and tangents

 

[Philippo]

What's up with the Challenge of Neftus? What was that? LOL

 

[Holundrian]

What's up with the Challenge of Neftus? What was that? LOL

Bring back the like it potato!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T6nLJK4FN0&feature=youtu.be&t=1h35m10s

 

[emb]

I'll be honest, I enjoy games like Persona a whole lot more when I'm serving as a spectator who has a varying level of input. It's not to say that the franchise is superficial or lacking in actual gameplay, it just works better for me as I find the character interactions the highlight amidst everything else.

It's always interesting to see how family, friends, and various streamers make different choices and approach a given situation. This recent mandate issued by Atlus killed nearly all of the excitement I had going for the international release and a potential playthrough by Ben. I can't even normally watch friends or family play through the game either unless I head to their physical location as they'll essentially be in danger once they reach a certain point in the game.

Just so it's said: I have purchased a copy of the original Japanese release, but I can't be bothered to purchase an English copy after all this hubbub. It's not directly due Atlus' decision that I'm making this choice, but it certainly didn't help.

Nice! I can't really say I enjoy watching the streams more than playing something, but there are some games out there I've probably watched more than played. To me though, watching only becomes fun after my playthrough. Would you say there are games you skipped buying due to streams, and/or have you bought games you weren't otherwise planning to due to really enjoying their streams?

I should probably add that I actually haven't played a Persona game. Was already probably not planning to jump in, so I can't really make any claim that I'm out due to the policies. The idea of it's just frustrating to me though.

 

[Mista Koo]

Again, I'm not saying what they're doing is absolutely right or absolutely wrong. I'm just saying things are more gray and two sided than what most people are making them out to be. I don't have the numbers on how many sales are gained or lost per stream viewer. In addition it's no longer about spoilers when the whole game is out there to consume.
Also when you bring up the monetization aspect of streaming makes it sound more and more like entitlement.

If the interactive element of your game adds so little to the whole experience though, id consider that a design problem.

Adding to the experience is extremely subjective. I know many people

As someone who watched a full playthrough of Gone Home from KayPlays, without buying the game, i can assure you there was about 0% chance i wouldve bought and played it anyway.
If the interactive element of your game adds so little to the whole experience though, id consider that a design problem.

Can you say that everyone feels the same way as you? I've personally watched most of a full playthrough of a story-based game that I probably would've bought otherwise (it's a game I didn't want to play but I wanted closure on the story).
What adds what to the experience is extremely subjective. I encourage games that try different things to exist, that game in particular was a pioneer of a genre.

Seems awfully close to the argument companies use to justify absurd DRMs to me, just assuming people who watch streams would've bought those games if they hadn't. I'd argue that if your game is good, all streaming does is help promote it and get it out there to more people. I've bought a bunch of different games over the last few years that I only found out about or that they were good via streams or long form videos. Resident Evil 7 for one, I wouldn't have bought it when I did if Huber's stream hadn't been so awesome.

That's awfully reductive. There is solid data in that Twitter thread that disproves the bolded in particular (not necessarily for Persona though).

 

[cm osi]

"what's the name of the sword? JOHNNY" lmao
Blood confused expression during the challenge was priceless



anyway, sloppy sloppy podcast. kyle forgot to lock the bets, that's shady. he also conveniently forgot the LIVE vs PS+....

 

[emb]

"what's the name of the sword? JOHNNY" lmao


anyway, sloppy sloppy podcast. kyle forgot to lock the bets, that's shady. he also conveniently forgot the LIVE vs PS+....

Woah, he forgot to lock them in? That is shady. Must know that he made a bad bet, will probably squirm out of it next time.

 

[Anaithsol]

Nice! I can't really say I enjoy watching the streams more than playing something, but there are some games out there I've probably watched more than played. To me though, watching only becomes fun after my playthrough. Would you say there are games you skipped buying due to streams, and/or have you bought games you weren't otherwise planning to due to really enjoying their streams?

I should probably add that I actually haven't played a Persona game. Was already probably not planning to jump in, so I can't really make any claim that I'm out due to the policies. The idea of it's just frustrating to me though.

I've skipped buying games I've seen on streams in the sense that I wasn't considering a purchase in the first place and said exposure didn't change my mind. On the other hand, I've made a number of purchases solely based off the content I experienced through a series of streams and/or videos.

 

[Ray Down]

What Atlus is doing isn't gray at all.

 

[Auctopus]

"what's the name of the sword? JOHNNY" lmao
Blood confused expression during the challenge was priceless



anyway, sloppy sloppy podcast. kyle forgot to lock the bets, that's shady. he also conveniently forgot the LIVE vs PS+....

Woah, he forgot to lock them in? That is shady. Must know that he made a bad bet, will probably squirm out of it next time.

He's shook after being blamed by Huber for being "responsible" for the bets that were locked in re: Everybody Adores Styx

 

[emb]

I've skipped buying games I've seen on streams in the sense that I wasn't considering a purchase in the first place and said exposure didn't change my mind. On the other hand, I've made a number of purchases solely based off the content I experienced through a series of streams and/or videos.

That more or less lines up with what I'd expect most of the time. Who knows though, there are plenty of diverse perspectives out there.

Kids come to mind; spoke with some younger friends of the family a couple years ago, and this little guy knew everything there was to know about Fallout 3/NV/4. He begged to play a couple of them since I had them, and I obliged. He knew exactly where to go and what to do, but said he had never played them before. In this case of course, he wanted to play them. But thinking of myself as a kid, I was jumping to rent games when I could, and I'd spend a lot of time with a new game when I got it. In that situation, where I couldn't purchase many games, today maybe I would only watch videos of more games. But but but, aren't free digital games the bigger threat on that front anyway?

I can't say I've ever decided against a game thinking I could just watch the story online. I have used online videos to fill myself in though. I have an absolute, 0 DLC policy (I'll do free sometimes if I care, but will never spend money on it, prefer not to even download the free stuff). RE7's DLC had touches of story in it, and one was particularly story focused. I watched those online to see how they connected (some of them via Huber). I'll do the same thing with Zelda when that DLC content releases, I'll watch it online to satisfy my curiosity. But even if the copyright authoritarians succeed at making that content hard to find, I'd still be reading up on it in wikis or on forums. There's no situation where I could be convinced to buy it.

 

[UrbanRats]

Adding to the experience is extremely subjective.

Everybody knows someone who is fine with watching games being played instead of playing them, those arent really customers.

Again on an ethical level i think it's fair to add something to a monetized stream, be it commentary or speedrunning or something particular that adds personal value.

Beyond monetization, if you buy a product you should be able to do whatever you want with it, short of duplicate it and give it around.

Stream it, emulate it, lend it around, sell it, burn it.

I dont consider streaming duplicating, because theres 1 level of separation between playing and watching a game being played.

It's kind of like reading the script of a movie while listening to the soundtrack, instead of watching the thing.
If youre fine experiencing movies like that, youre not REALLY interested in the medium in the first place.

 

[Anaithsol]

Again, I'm not saying what they're doing is absolutely right or absolutely wrong. I'm just saying things are more gray and two sided than what most people are making them out to be. I don't have the numbers on how many sales are gained or lost per stream viewer. In addition it's no longer about spoilers when the whole game is out there to consume.

I can understand looking at the situation from numerous perspectives, but I can't stand by a decision that removes the element of choice and penalizes individuals who decide to go against a mandate that's largely coming from an out of touch perspective.

Both sides of the argument in regards to this Atlus situation have their merits, but I'm seeing an all too frequent message that Atlus is completely right to censor content as they're only trying to do right by the fanbase and prevent the exposure to spoilers which leads to less sales despite data being present that would depict a scenario where this isn't necessarily the case nor as large-scale as one would be led to believe.

There was a way of going about this situation that didn't involve imposed restrictions followed by the threat of takedowns and/or account closures. Plenty of other publishers have approached this new level of content delivery without resorting to these sort of tactics. It shouldn't be very surprising that people aren't very keen to being told they aren't allowed to do something, and that if they do, they'll surely be sorry.

Also when you bring up the monetization aspect of streaming makes it sound more and more like entitlement.

It's this sort of line of thinking that makes it very hard to sympathize with people who are approaching the situation based off that very limited mindset. Can monetization be a factor for some streamers? Certainly. It does not, however, define the medium at its core and, in turn, make this sort of mandate valid and free of critique from individuals who engage in the act.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Fun podcast this week

Liked the shoutout Kyle did to the best of videos.

I know they're reluctant to do these things but it'd be cool if down the line those vids would be uploaded on the main EZA channel. Get more exposure get good recaps for folks.

Also it's great to see that final Patreon sponsor slot filled out. Always feels good to see them all claimed.

 

[sleepwalkcapsules]

Fun podcast this week

Liked the shoutout Kyle did to the best of videos.

I know they're reluctant to do these things but it'd be cool if down the line those vids would be uploaded on the main EZA channel. Get more exposure get good recaps for folks.

Also it's great to see that final Patreon sponsor slot filled out. Always feels good to see them all claimed.

They should do an official monthly best of. Maybe have a vote to make the selection process easier.

 

[ThanksVision]

blood, ty so much for getting the patreon RSS feed setup!

 

[Bloodworth]

blood, ty so much for getting the patreon RSS feed setup!

but Kyle did that

 

[ThanksVision]

thanks blood!

 

[mcw]

Generally I view game streaming as a positive thing and feel that Atlus was pretty boneheaded here. That said, in viewing some of the arguments being made in defense of streamers, I've been surprised at how much overlap there has been with the arguments that are traditionally used to defend piracy.

I'm very much against piracy and have argued with people about since 1999. The common defense was and always had been, "Someone who pirates an album was never going to buy it anyway". Whether or not I agree with Atlus's approach here, it is nevertheless true that they have the burden of protecting their content from devaluation. The people in question "were never going to buy it anyway" because they had an expectation that getting it for free would be easy. If that expectation changes, so too does their valuation of the content.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

thanks blood!

lol.

 

[Primethius]

but Kyle did that

Great job Blood!

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Brandon declares there's absolutely no way you can be spoiled by someone streaming something on Twitch if you don't want to be spoiled...

..then tells story about how Twitch on PS4 spoiled something for him.

:/

 

[Anaithsol]

Generally I view game streaming as a positive thing and feel that Atlus was pretty boneheaded here. That said, in viewing some of the arguments being made in defense of streamers, I've been surprised at how much overlap there has been with the arguments that are traditionally used to defend piracy.

I'm very much against piracy and have argued with people about since 1999. The common defense was and always had been, "Someone who pirates an album was never going to buy it anyway". Whether or not I agree with Atlus's approach here, it is nevertheless true that they have the burden of protecting their content from devaluation. The people in question "were never going to buy it anyway" because they had an expectation that getting it for free would be easy. If that expectation changes, so too does their valuation of the content.

There's going to be a lot of overlap and comparisons made in regards to piracy, renting, and other similar concepts due to the nature of content consumption.

I can see where you're coming from and it's true that the matter is hardly that black and white; however, it's also quite reductive to state that those people would be more likely to make a purchase if there were no other avenues available to them.

Brandon declares there's absolutely no way you can be spoiled by someone streaming something on Twitch if you don't want to be spoiled...

..then tells story about how Twitch on PS4 spoiled something for him.

:/

To be fair, I believe he was coming from the mindset that you can only be spoiled on the Twitch website if you actively chase content of the game you're trying to avoid spoilers for. It's not quite as simple as that naturally, but a lot of spoiler exposure relies on whether or not the user is subjecting himself/herself to situations that would bring it about.

When browsing through your home menu on the PlayStation 4, it's very common to see thumbnails and have a streaming video auto-play which may or may not consist of spoilers specific to the highlighted game at the time.

 

[Vinc]

but Kyle did that

Thanks for setting that up, Blood!

Brandon declares there's absolutely no way you can be spoiled by someone streaming something on Twitch if you don't want to be spoiled...

..then tells story about how Twitch on PS4 spoiled something for him.

:/

But that's only because the PS4 autoplays twitch streams you didn't ask for, whereas someone who willingly goes to twitch but doesn't want to know anything about the game they're watching kinda doesn't exist.

 

[ElephantShell]

Hey Blood, really appreciate the podcast feed. Keep up the good work!

 

[abrack08]

I think we can all agree that EZA had a fantastic 1st year + half month of year 2. Many incredible, hilarious, touching moments in podcasts, videos, and streams.

But the single greatest accomplishment of any member of EZA... is unquestionably when Bloodworth got the early Podcast RSS feed up for Patrons. Thanks a million Blood!