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[345triangle]

i have the game, but wish it was back on the store so i can download the update! the badge is annoying me.

plus it's a great game and this whole situation is ridiculous shit that no-one should have to go through.

 

[so1337]

The asshole's going down. About time.

 

[xclaw]

Enjoy the updates, please keep them coming as you have them.

 

[Culex]

Sadly they can just keep appealing, right? This has been Tim's strategy forever

 

[apujanata]

Thanks for the responses, guys. Means I'm not crying in the wilderness!

My take on it at present is that the outcome of the actual case is (pretty well) solely dependent on EA not giving up. So if any of you guys have means of expressing love to EA over this, go do it.

I'd prefer that EA particularise the fraud allegations in the next few days - it's a big tactical advantage if they have the evidence lined up. But then, I'm seeing this as a spectator rather than a participant.

The outcome for Langdell depends very much on how deep a hole he digs for himself during these proceedings. If it gets as far as discovery he is potentially in very deep trouble indeed, and he appears to be doing the most he can to avoid it.

It is very noticeable that he is making the motions himself and not through lawyers. Any law firm involved is keeping sensibly in the background. I would if I had him as a client.

If I have Tim as a client, I would immediately stop the client relationship, since I am not sure I am going to be paid, if I lose. In fact, I wouldn't touch Tim with a ten-foot pole, even if I am starving at the moment.

Go phisheep and go EA. BTW, why is it phisheep and not pisheep ?

 

[Brobzoid]

appreciate the updates.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Thanks for the updates, really interesting story.

 

[The Technomancer]

Good to be updated. Can't wait to see how everything turns out.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I've been following this from the sidelines and this has been quite riveting. The game's been up and hopefully this is about done and this guy can serve some hard time or be stripped of all assets.

Mirror's Edge 2 must be called Mirror's Edge: The Edge of Edge's Edge

:lol

 

[GeekyDad]

You can't patent names can you?

It wouldn't be labeled as a patent; it would be a trademark.

Patents: devices, inventions, etc.
Trademarks: terms of identification
Copyright: creative works

 

[Grimm Fandango]

Tagging this thread for updates. EA has become really awesome this generation.

 

[Tony Rocky Horror]

Wow, this whole debacle is getting better and better as time goes on.

 

[itsgreen]

I've been following this from the sidelines and this has been quite riveting. The game's been up and hopefully this is about done and this guy can serve some hard time or be stripped of all assets.


:lol

New main character, Ed Ge

 

[Flavius]

This isn't a criminal court, so that won't happen. Not here at least.

However, it does raise an interesting tactical point - if EA does re-allege fraud (and it seems in their best interests to), then Langdell's best option would seem to be to give up at this stage and concede the trademarks - otherwise he is likely to be in real danger of his only real choice being between admitting fraud or committing perjury, either of which could easily lead to criminal charges.

Admittedly, I'm new to this story and have been playing catch-up...

Would you mind expanding a bit here. Why do you believe continuing to pursue the fraud action would be in EA's best interests, and so detrimental to Langdell? Do you believe EA could meet their burden so easily?

 

[phisheep]

Admittedly, I'm new to this story and have been playing catch-up...

Would you mind expanding a bit here. Why do you believe continuing to pursue the fraud action would be in EA's best interests, and so detrimental to Langdell? Do you believe EA could meet their burden so easily?

I need to qualify this by saying this isn't happening in my jurisdiction, so the details of the rules may be different, but the tactical point is simple.

Remember that EA wouldn't need to prove fraud at this pre-trial stage, only have enough evidence to particularise the allegations.

But if they do, then it is an issue in dispute between the parties, which means that documents relevant to whether it is a fraud or not would fall within the pre-trial discovery phase.

Which would leave Langdell with the following options:

(a) produce true records showing it is not fraud (in which case we were all wrong about him)
(b) produce true records showing it was fraud (which would be an automatic Game Over)
(c) produce false records showing it is not fraud (perjury, Game Over)
(d) pretend the dog ate the records (loss of credibility and possible tax evasion)

See what I mean? If he is the man we think he is he would be left with no way out, except to concede the trademarks without a fight - because to go to trial would risk a lot more.

 

[Flavius]

Absolutely. Thanks for the reply.

I've been reading through the info over on tigsource since checking out this thread. Whoa, boy...heh...crazy, crazy stuff!

 

[oracrest]

Thanks for the updates!

Can't wait to see this guy go down!

 

[Zinthar]

Remember that EA wouldn't need to prove fraud at this pre-trial stage, only have enough evidence to particularise the allegations.

Exactly -- EA's pleading just needs to be sufficient to withstand the inevitable 9b motion (a Federal Rule of Civil Procedure governing fraud pleadings), and then they're on to discovery. At that point you'd have to imagine Langdell would have to give in, as the rest of the process will become very expensive for him.

 

[apujanata]

I need to qualify this by saying this isn't happening in my jurisdiction, so the details of the rules may be different, but the tactical point is simple.

Remember that EA wouldn't need to prove fraud at this pre-trial stage, only have enough evidence to particularise the allegations.

But if they do, then it is an issue in dispute between the parties, which means that documents relevant to whether it is a fraud or not would fall within the pre-trial discovery phase.

Which would leave Langdell with the following options:

(a) produce true records showing it is not fraud (in which case we were all wrong about him)
(b) produce true records showing it was fraud (which would be an automatic Game Over)
(c) produce false records showing it is not fraud (perjury, Game Over)
(d) pretend the dog ate the records (loss of credibility and possible tax evasion)

See what I mean? If he is the man we think he is he would be left with no way out, except to concede the trademarks without a fight - because to go to trial would risk a lot more.

There no option E for Tim ? Something like temporary insanity, or some other equally ridiculous claim by him to escape / delay decision ?

 

[MacBosse]

There no option E for Tim ? Something like temporary insanity, or some other equally ridiculous claim by him to escape / delay decision ?

Option E for Edge of Insanity.

 

[phisheep]

Today - at the last possible moment, EA has filed an amended and consolidated pleading.

Here it is: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-92051465-CAN-16.pdf

As I expected and hoped, it alleges fraud. As I didn't expect, it expressly references (and so, presumably brings into evidence) the chaosedge website. Wonderful!

There may be some procedural shenanigans over this, but as of now, Langdell has 30 days to respond.

It's a bit late here, and I'm too tired to go through it detail right now, but I'll try to analyse it properly tomorrow for your delight and edification.

EDIT: one thing this does mean is that Langdell's legal advisers will have to read the chaosedge site in order to prepare a response. I would love to be a fly on the wall at their subsequent conversation with their client!

 

[chubigans]

Awesome news, and thanks as always phisheep!

 

[V_Ben]

cheers for the update, appreciate it!

 

[jooey]

There no option E for Tim ? Something like temporary insanity, or some other equally ridiculous claim by him to escape / delay decision ?

don't give him ideas

 

[Druz]

good stuff

 

[phisheep]

There no option E for Tim ? Something like temporary insanity, or some other equally ridiculous claim by him to escape / delay decision ?

There are other options of course.

One would be simply to fail to respond to the allegations.

This would prevent the case going to discovery at all (so avoiding all the potential embarrassment over the records) - but it would enable EA to apply for judgment in default and win without a fight.

As I see it now, this is the option that is in Langdell's best interests. He would lose the trademarks of course, but that's all.

 

[timetokill]

Great update, thank you!

 

[bbyybb]

Like what everyone else has stated in the thread, thanks for the update.

I am interested see Langdell's next move in the next 30 days. If anything, it should be entertaining.

 

[Haunted]

Today - at the last possible moment, EA has filed an amended and consolidated pleading.

Here it is: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-92051465-CAN-16.pdf

As I expected and hoped, it alleges fraud. As I didn't expect, it expressly references (and so, presumably brings into evidence) the chaosedge website. Wonderful!

There may be some procedural shenanigans over this, but as of now, Langdell has 30 days to respond.

It's a bit late here, and I'm too tired to go through it detail right now, but I'll try to analyse it properly tomorrow for your delight and edification.

EDIT: one thing this does mean is that Langdell's legal advisers will have to read the chaosedge site in order to prepare a response. I would love to be a fly on the wall at their subsequent conversation with their client!

Interesting stuff, thanks for keeping up with this for us.

 

[phisheep]

Like what everyone else has stated in the thread, thanks for the update.

I am interested see Langdell's next move in the next 30 days. If anything, it should be entertaining.

Unfortunately for us spectators, it may not be!

He could simply go down the route of denying everything - or more precisely, putting EA to proof on absolutely everything. It makes for very boring reading.

It is the sort of thing he has done before, and is perfectly normal practice.

The real fun is more likely to be between lawyers and during the discovey conference, which will be concealed from us mere mortals for the time being.

Nevertheless, if he does make a reply, it will be worth raking through it in detail in case of loopholes.

 

[phisheep]

OK. I’ve read it all now. It is a very repetitive document to comply with the rules on alleging fraud, so I don’t suggest it to anyone as bedtime reading.

However, the implications are more interesting than I thought (and I was wrong about what Langdell's best option now is).

First, this amended plea completely blows out of the water Langdell’s attempt to revive his motion to dismiss – which was based on the claim that the matters in dispute had already been fully litigated in the Velocity Micro case. That’s because these specific allegations of fraud have not been litigated before at all, and there is no reasonable way that Langdell can claim that they have been.

Second, Langdell may think that all he has to do here is deny the allegations, or at least (to avoid perjuring himself) to put EA to proof on the allegations. However, this isn’t quite true here. You see, there’s a burden on the applicant for a trademark to evidence that it is in use, distinctive and so on – a burden which Langdell appears to have satisfied by fraudulent means. If he wants to hang onto the trademarks he will have to evidence that they are in use, distinctive and so on. Procedurally, this probably can’t happen at the answer stage in the next 30 days, but it does mean that now – simply by the allegations having been made – it is unlikely that Langdell will be able to reregister any of these trademarks when they expire, because he will not be able to satisfy his burden of proof. To that extent, it is Game Over already - eventually.

And he can’t claim to be unaware of that burden either, because it was replayed to him in an Office Action sent to him on 2nd August 2006 in connection with the ‘Gamer’s Edge’ registration.
http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/...wNum=15&rowCount=19&formattedDate=02-Aug-2006

The twist to this is that, even in answering the amended plea – which he can only do without perjury by putting EA to proof – he is digging a deep hole for himself during discovery and trial.

And if the fraud allegations stand up, then the registrations and reregistrations obtained by fraud will open him up to suits for damages from all those he has crossed swords with in the past.

And if he fails to answer the plea (as I suggested - wrongly - yesterday) EA will get judgment in default on everything including the fraud charges.

The only way I can see for Langdell can avoid this is to:
(a) apply to the Director to voluntarily surrender the trademarks under s2.172 of the Rules of Practice
(b) then, once they are cancelled, to apply to the Board to dismiss EA’s petition on the grounds that it no longer shows a cause of action (as EA can’t be harmed by trademarks that no longer exist)
(c) do all of that within the next 30 days

That way (I’m pretty sure) the trademarks would be cancelled as of this year, and if anyone wants to resuscitate actions from the past they will have to bring the fraud allegations all over again which, frankly, I guess they won’t bother to if Langdell has surrendered them already.

Even then, the Board may see through it.

 

[Dr Bad Dude PHD]

IMO, the real loser here is the legal system. It's quite obvious that the guy is a jerk that is making a living by being a jerk to companies that are just trying to go about their business. The guy should show up to court and they should be all, "Yo, Langdell, stop that or you're going to jail". Case closed. Instead there is months and months of bullshit to try and justify what is a little bit of common sense.

 

[JaseC]

I had completely forgotten about all this. Good to see EA throwing down the gauntlet!

 

[Gattsu25]

OK. I’ve read it all now. It is a very repetitive document to comply with the rules on alleging fraud, so I don’t suggest it to anyone as bedtime reading.

However, the implications are more interesting than I thought (and I was wrong about what Langdell's best option now is).

First, this amended plea completely blows out of the water Langdell’s attempt to revive his motion to dismiss – which was based on the claim that the matters in dispute had already been fully litigated in the Velocity Micro case. That’s because these specific allegations of fraud have not been litigated before at all, and there is no reasonable way that Langdell can claim that they have been.

Second, Langdell may think that all he has to do here is deny the allegations, or at least (to avoid perjuring himself) to put EA to proof on the allegations. However, this isn’t quite true here. You see, there’s a burden on the applicant for a trademark to evidence that it is in use, distinctive and so on – a burden which Langdell appears to have satisfied by fraudulent means. If he wants to hang onto the trademarks he will have to evidence that they are in use, distinctive and so on. Procedurally, this probably can’t happen at the answer stage in the next 30 days, but it does mean that now – simply by the allegations having been made – it is unlikely that Langdell will be able to reregister any of these trademarks when they expire, because he will not be able to satisfy his burden of proof. To that extent, it is Game Over already - eventually.

And he can’t claim to be unaware of that burden either, because it was replayed to him in an Office Action sent to him on 2nd August 2006 in connection with the ‘Gamer’s Edge’ registration.
http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/...wNum=15&rowCount=19&formattedDate=02-Aug-2006

The twist to this is that, even in answering the amended plea – which he can only do without perjury by putting EA to proof – he is digging a deep hole for himself during discovery and trial.

And if the fraud allegations stand up, then the registrations and reregistrations obtained by fraud will open him up to suits for damages from all those he has crossed swords with in the past.

And if he fails to answer the plea (as I suggested - wrongly - yesterday) EA will get judgment in default on everything including the fraud charges.

The only way I can see for Langdell can avoid this is to:
(a) apply to the Director to voluntarily surrender the trademarks under s2.172 of the Rules of Practice
(b) then, once they are cancelled, to apply to the Board to dismiss EA’s petition on the grounds that it no longer shows a cause of action (as EA can’t be harmed by trademarks that no longer exist)
(c) do all of that within the next 30 days

That way (I’m pretty sure) the trademarks would be cancelled as of this year, and if anyone wants to resuscitate actions from the past they will have to bring the fraud allegations all over again which, frankly, I guess they won’t bother to if Langdell has surrendered them already.

Even then, the Board may see through it.

I salute your bright-eyed optimism

 

[Ashes]

well, it looks promising to say the least...

 

[Ondore]

IANAL, but does it mean anything that the EDGE trademarks are listed here as "Cancellation Pending"?

Or is this a standard procedure when a trademark is under dispute?

 

[cleveridea]

great updates phisheep

what I dont get is why did this guy not hire lawyers? I got the impression from prior articles that many companies just paid a settlement to make him go away. so perhaps he just wasted any money he did get (eg on a lavish lifestyle and/or expensive lawyer actions)

also, are the EA laywers internal full time employees? in other words, it doesnt cost EA any additional expense (therefore meaning there is no financial incentive to drop the case ASAP)

 

[Captain Chaos]

more comments and quotes here;

http://www.develop-online.net/news/34296/Langdell-losing-grip-on-Edge-trademark

 

[phisheep]

IANAL, but does it mean anything that the EDGE trademarks are listed here as "Cancellation Pending"?

Or is this a standard procedure when a trademark is under dispute?

Standard procedure - it doesn't mean anything ... yet.

EDIT: since this seems to have gained some wider currency around the internet, perhaps I'd better expand a bit.

'Cancellation Pending' is shorthand for: '(a hearing about a proposed) cancellation (is) pending'

It is the hearing, not the cancellation itself, that is pending.

]IMO, the real loser here is the legal system. It's quite obvious that the guy is a jerk that is making a living by being a jerk to companies that are just trying to go about their business. The guy should show up to court and they should be all, "Yo, Langdell, stop that or you're going to jail". Case closed. Instead there is months and months of bullshit to try and justify what is a little bit of common sense.

I disagree.

The legal system, for the protection of all of us, is based around proper evidence. And this evidence just didn't exist until chaosedge and others dragged it up and researched it.

And it isn't - thank goodness - against the law to be a jerk.

Maybe the PTO should be more careful accepting registrations in the first place, but there's a balance to be drawn between trapping people like Langdell and putting intolerable burdens on ordinary businesses.

I salute your bright-eyed optimism

Nothing wrong with bright-eyed optimism when it's supported by the law!

There's a reason that the rules say that if there's a current proceeding when a registration is surrendered it gets referred to the Board hearing the case. This is that reason.

great updates phisheep

what I dont get is why did this guy not hire lawyers? I got the impression from prior articles that many companies just paid a settlement to make him go away. so perhaps he just wasted any money he did get (eg on a lavish lifestyle and/or expensive lawyer actions)

also, are the EA laywers internal full time employees? in other words, it doesnt cost EA any additional expense (therefore meaning there is no financial incentive to drop the case ASAP)

EA is using an external firm for this. Sensible thing to do in this sort of case - get a specialist. So there are external costs involved.

Langdell did use lawyers in some previous actions, but has named himself as his own attorney of record.

There was at one stage a law firm involved on Langdell's side but we have lost visibility of them - don't know whether he is still getting independent advice. If he is, it is in the background.

 

[Mad_Ban]

Thank you Phisheep for keeping us up to date!

Nice to see this jerk is finally going to lose grip of what he kept precious. He's harmed too many devs with his idiotic claims.

 

[Haunted]

That way (I’m pretty sure) the trademarks would be cancelled as of this year, and if anyone wants to resuscitate actions from the past they will have to bring the fraud allegations all over again which, frankly, I guess they won’t bother to if Langdell has surrendered them already.

What does this mean?

Langdell forfeits the trademarks brought up by EA in this specific case (which do not include all of his trademarks?) but is able to continue his shenanigans afterwards or what? This seems like he could get off rather lightly if the board doesn't object. :/

 

[phisheep]

What does this mean?

Langdell forfeits the trademarks brought up by EA in this specific case (which do not include all of his trademarks?) but is able to continue his shenanigans afterwards or what? This seems like he could get off rather lightly if the board doesn't object. :/

Once they are surrendered they stay surrendered. And this case includes all the trademarks that have been causing everyone trouble.

Without the trademarks he won't be able to carry on the shenanigans.

As to whether he would get off lightly (I emphasise the would because it is unclear to me at present whether he could actually get away with this approach) that depends on whether anyone afterwards wants to chase him in the civil or criminal courts or through the taxman or whatever. My guess is they probably won't, at least in the civil courts, as he'll probably not have enough assets to be worth pursuing.

I wouldn't call that lightly though. Complete globally visible loss of face isn't getting off lightly.

 

[RavenFox]

IMO, the real loser here is the legal system. It's quite obvious that the guy is a jerk that is making a living by being a jerk to companies that are just trying to go about their business. The guy should show up to court and they should be all, "Yo, Langdell, stop that or you're going to jail". Case closed. Instead there is months and months of bullshit to try and justify what is a little bit of common sense.

You mean like if the Declaration of Independence should say hey we all must respect other and get along? It's isn't that simple friend.

 

[gabrielh]

If I recall Peugeot has trademarked every number that has a 0 between 2 other numbers (ie: 207; 208; 307; 407; 507) for cars. Porshe once wanted to name a car model "Porshe 901" but wasn't able due to this trademark.

EDIT: wikipedia page on the subject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_901

 

[cleveridea]

Langdell did use lawyers in some previous actions, but has named himself as his own attorney of record.

There was at one stage a law firm involved on Langdell's side but we have lost visibility of them - don't know whether he is still getting independent advice. If he is, it is in the background.

I dont know anything about trademark and related IP litigation, but advice I have been given over the years is ALWAYS hire a good lawyer (through recommendation/reputation) whether it be a criminal matter, contract law or whatever - and that representing yourself is a really bad idea, especially if you arent a lawyer:lol .

once elements of fraud are involved, this just sounds potentially very dangerous. ironically this was the comments of an indie developer threatened by Langdell

"It's painful, living with this constant threat. You go home for the weekend and it's all you can talk about with your friends, yet not one of them can help you. You feel alone and there seems to be no way out. It is hard to sleep and to concentrate. We do our best to stay positive but it's difficult. We're finding it hard to start work on our next game."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/the-edge-of-reason?page=1

could there be such an experience for langdell?

 

[Haunted]

Once they are surrendered they stay surrendered. And this case includes all the trademarks that have been causing everyone trouble.

Without the trademarks he won't be able to carry on the shenanigans.

As to whether he would get off lightly (I emphasise the would because it is unclear to me at present whether he could actually get away with this approach) that depends on whether anyone afterwards wants to chase him in the civil or criminal courts or through the taxman or whatever. My guess is they probably won't, at least in the civil courts, as he'll probably not have enough assets to be worth pursuing.

I wouldn't call that lightly though. Complete globally visible loss of face isn't getting off lightly.

Excellent.

 

[phisheep]

could there be such an experience for langdell?

Not possible. There's that bit about 'friends'.

 

[Neuromancer]

Who'd have thought I'd someday be rooting for EA.

At the beginning of this generation I wouldn't even buy an EA game, I was so disgusted with them.

 

[Nikashi]

Thank you very much for all the updates phi, I was getting a little hungry for information since chaosedge went dormant, and it's really nice to see Mr. Langdell getting what he rightfully deserves after so long.

Are there any other blogs/twitters/etc. where more information could be found other than this thread, in regards to updates?

 

[phisheep]

Are there any other blogs/twitters/etc. where more information could be found other than this thread, in regards to updates?

There are, but they are mostly not very reliable as they take second-hand stuff and comments and so on way out of their legal context.

I'm trying here to stick to what is publicised in the case, with a bit of legally-informed speculation to spice things up and whet the appetite. In terms of objective information there isn't any more than that - except of course for the research stuff done by chaosedge and a few others.

So probably this is as good as it is going to get.