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Elite Dangerous: Horizons |OT| Just scratching the surface

danowat

Banned
I think the optimal shield mass thing is more like diminishing returns. If your mass is over it, your shields are going to be trash, if your mass is under you get some additional benefit but some of the shield is wasted.

That was my assumption until I did some googling and found some topics on the ED forums saying that having a ship hull under the optimum mass meant the shield was weaker.

IDK, I find a lot of the numbers game behind ship building utterly confusing!, especially when you start throw engineered modules into the mix.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Seems like he had a hull tank Scout, as well as G5 rapid fire mine launcher, which is what did the shields of the Cutter in so easily.

Also seemed like the Cutter may have been specc'd for multicrew. Looked like they had at least a few turrets.

I mean regardless, that's an asp scout with class 2 rails smoking a cutter in 5 minutes. Sure he has an insane hull tank and crazy mines on it but the hardness on the cutter on live would be able to survive that assault for almost twice as long.

And that's an asp scout with class 2 rails lmao. Let that sink in for a sec. Imagine what a hull tank FAS or omni dual tank FdL is going to be able to do?

Maybe I'm biased in my love of gun ships, but if that Cutter had more multicannons and fewer beams, that Asp would have been torn through like tissue paper.

Eh maybe maybe not, missiles on the cutter would have definitely made the situation different since the Asp Scouts modules would have been blown up. But if that Asps hull tank was as ridiculous as it looked then it was likely omni resistant which means that he had the same resists (50%++) against all damage types. The thing about that clip that's most horrifying is that those shitty class 2 rails were able to kill a cutter in 5min.
 

Onemic

Member
I've been away from this game for close to a year now, so Im just wondering...Since it's 2017 has ED switched from Horizons to the season 3 expansion?
 
Played some multicrew tonight with one friend.

Not bad. I feel like it will be popular in combat zones and res sites but that's obvious. Doesn't have much use other than that. Good money maker.

Curious about PvP. If nothing else, could make for fun massive fights. Some of the big multi Wing battles are fun to watch.
 

Jedi2016

Member
I've been grinding passenger missions, sightseeing tours specifically, for the exploration money.

Now I'm Pioneer, at 98%. I think I'm going to ditch passengers and head out for a short jaunt in my Asp, maybe 10k light years or so, just to rack up a few million in actual exploration data to put me over the top. Kind of makes it more "real", you know?
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Yea I...I'm failing to see the problem here.

They finally created a system that for the first time in ED's history gives a real incentive for people to play together in order to get a better reward.

Then they said "naahhh"

One of my personal biggest criticisms of ED is that there is almost no reason to play with anyone outside of like 2 very niche situations.

1) PvP
2) Powerplay merit grinding
 
They finally created a system that for the first time in ED's history gives a real incentive for people to play together in order to get a better reward.

Then they said "naahhh"

One of my personal biggest criticisms of ED is that there is almost no reason to play with anyone outside of like 2 very niche situations.

1) PvP
2) Powerplay merit grinding
Fair enough. I personally am not sure what the balance is. The problem I assume they wanted to address was the idea that players in their first day could be earning $7 million/hour riding shotgun in their buddies' decked out Corvette. Seems like that at best fast forwards the normal progression speed by a factor of 30, and at worst completely breaks whatever progression systems still remain in the game.

It seems like it would be the final blow to any sort of economy structure FDev may have ever wanted for the game, at which time they mine as well just give all the ships away from day 1 and remove currency altogether. So help me understand what I'm missing here? Is the feature now less fun because it will earn less money for new players? "Fun" is that tied to income, is it? Objectively, they will still earn more money for less work in their friends' Corvette since they will kill far more ships far faster and at far less risk. They may not make $7 million/hour like their Elite friend, but if they're making $1.25 million/hour while playing with a friend, I'm not seeing the issue. Good money being made while having fun with friends. Money they didn't have to try to "get the last hit on big ships" in RES sites to get. Wasn't that the point?

If your expectation that multicrew should unlock endgame income levels no matter how new to the game the crew are, sorry I can't join you there. If your newish friends could only be interested in the game if they are able to make money at the same velocity as me that I earned with my 1,000+ hours of dedication and play, I'm going to suggest that ED is not and may never be the game for them. Shortcuts to end game stuff won't make people like the game more or play it longer. If your friends don't like the game much in an Eagle or Cobra, they won't like it in a Corvette or Cutter either...and they'll have a ton of extra things to worry about on top of it.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Fair enough. I personally am not sure what the balance is. The problem I assume they wanted to address was the idea that players in their first day could be earning $7 million/hour riding shotgun in their buddies' decked out Corvette. Seems like that at best fast forwards the normal progression speed by a factor of 30, and at worst completely breaks whatever progression systems still remain in the game.

It seems like it would be the final blow to any sort of economy structure FDev may have ever wanted for the game, at which time they mine as well just give all the ships away from day 1 and remove currency altogether. So help me understand what I'm missing here? Is the feature now less fun because it will earn less money for new players? "Fun" is that tied to income, is it? Objectively, they will still earn more money for less work in their friends' Corvette since they will kill far more ships far faster and at far less risk. They may not make $7 million/hour like their Elite friend, but if they're making $1.25 million/hour while playing with a friend, I'm not seeing the issue. Good money being made while having fun with friends. Money they didn't have to try to "get the last hit on big ships" in RES sites to get. Wasn't that the point?

If your expectation that multicrew should unlock endgame income levels no matter how new to the game the crew are, sorry I can't join you there. If your newish friends could only be interested in the game if they are able to make money at the same velocity as me that I earned with my 1,000+ hours of dedication and play, I'm going to suggest that ED is not and may never be the game for them. Shortcuts to end game stuff won't make people like the game more or play it longer. If your friends don't like the game much in an Eagle or Cobra, they won't like it in a Corvette or Cutter either...and they'll have a ton of extra things to worry about on top of it.

I would argue that credits being the primary "grind" or sense of progression died with the introduction of engineers. It's gotten to the point where a fully engineered Diamond back scout can wipe out any of the big 3 that are non engineered or even lightly engineered. Besides that fact (since it's mostly pvp) a non engineered A-rated python is all you really need if you're fighting mostly NPCs. So in that respect I don't really think "accelerating" the credits grind for new players really does anything negatively to their sense of progression other than giving them more access to more types of ships and out fitting options sooner. Which just gives more interesting options for people.

If riding shotgun with your friend in their decked out vette ends up being just as profitable as hanging out and shooting at whatever the cops are shooting at in a high RES then what's the point you know?
 
Whether or not this is intentional, full profit sharing is still in the 2.3 beta for Wing members, as opposed to Multicrew members.

So there's more incentive to fly as a Wing. I guess.
 

Burny

Member
So there's more incentive to fly as a Wing. I guess.

Which should've been there day 1 with wings. Only Frontier does not seem to play their own game thoroughly enough to realize that their implementation of "cooperatively playing" meant gimping each player's payout.

I can't say whether limiting multicrew payout by rank is sensible, but again, it seeems like a crutch. If a "newb" performed better than an "Elite" player, why should their payout be limited again? Because they haven't grinded as much, yet? Seems they went for easy to implement workaround again.
 

DrBo42

Member
Whether or not this is intentional, full profit sharing is still in the 2.3 beta for Wing members, as opposed to Multicrew members.

So there's more incentive to fly as a Wing. I guess.

Know what the easy solution is that should have been there since day 1? Wing missions. Something that's actually scaled to 4 players in their own ships tackling an objective. 2...fucking...years and the closest we get to an incentive is "Your bounties are worth the full amount now!" No excuse.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Know what the easy solution is that should have been there since day 1? Wing missions. Something that's actually scaled to 4 players in their own ships tackling an objective. 2...fucking...years and the closest we get to an incentive is "Your bounties are worth the full amount now!" No excuse.

I have been hoping for wing missions forever but i don't know if they are ever coming. Fdev seems to be really scared of introducing features that alienate people who play in solo, it's probably why we have such a weak implementation of multicrew.
 

DrBo42

Member
I have been hoping for wing missions forever but i don't know if they are ever coming. Fdev seems to be really scared of introducing features that alienate people who play in solo, it's probably why we have such a weak implementation of multicrew.

The entire game is built for them. FFS they don't get to complain about something added specifically for a multiplayer scenario.
 

Burny

Member
Know what the easy solution is that should have been there since day 1? Wing missions. Something that's actually scaled to 4 players in their own ships tackling an objective. 2...fucking...years and the closest we get to an incentive is "Your bounties are worth the full amount now!" No excuse.

You know, I agree with all your people's complaints against Elite Dangerous. Except for one thing: just should've done X, would be easy etc..

I doubt it ever is easy. For instance: I'm all for Wing missions. But easy? The poor excuse that goes for "missions" in Elite Dangerous today would hardly make for a good Wing mission, because it's usually 90% supercruising around looking for something and 10% normal flight gameplay, where actial Wing interaction and cooperation is required. Sound like a receipe to lull your wing players into a sleep.


Also the jealous guarding of the status quo, as with the multicrew payouts and earlier the rubbish zero sum inventory management waiting game, aka ship transfer delays, is pathetic. If the game designers are so concerned that players might skip the early game experience, they should make that experience worthwhile, wo players won't want to skip it. Players have the option todaywith all the credit exploits and will always have it, the way Elite generates missions half randomly where tight dev supervision and balance is impossible. At some point, the devs and also the players should realize something: Agency belongs into each individual player's hands. If players want to skip the ridiculous loading screen grind that is ship relocation, they bloody ought to be able to do so, without having an hourclock shoved into their face. If players want to skip early game progression, they ought to be able to do so, without asinine restrictions like "only 3" limits for mission types.

Edit: Anybody else here playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild? Frontier could take a very close look at that game and try to apply some of the designs that make exploration so bloody engaging there to Elite. Maybe a game that models a whole galaxy would not look like an amateur job because exploration revolves around watching spinning doughnuts, next to a game that sports as little as a ~6km*9km map and provides 50-100h of actually feeling like you're exploring a world.

I have been hoping for wing missions forever but i don't know if they are ever coming. Fdev seems to be really scared of introducing features that alienate people who play in solo, it's probably why we have such a weak implementation of multicrew.

They're also mortally afraid of competency in game design or are simply incapable of it. When you literally place a minute counter in front of a player for inventory management, you ought to reconsider your choice of game design for a career path.
 
The profit sharing is a typically ridiculous implementation of a sensible idea.

It's reasonable to limit profits by very new pilots, since newbies will want to try multicrew with friends, but could 'ruin' their game experience if they got handed a very large amount of money after a couple of hours of multicrew and just jumped straight to a multi-million-credit ship.
I think it's important to keep the sense of early game progression as you upgrade the sidewinder, then trade up to an adder/hauler/viper/cobra and have all those interesting choices about when/whether to upgrade or swap-ship.

But, the pay-cuts are ridiculous. Even deadly players (including the pilot in some reddit testing) are getting 30-40% less than the actual bounty!
A novice pilot got a >95% pay cut!

IMO, harmless and mostly harmless pilots should get a very large pay-cut (multicrew should still give more profit than solo sidewinder-ing, but not 100x more) but this should rapidly drop off to a negligible (or zero) pay cut for anyone above novice.

I think the game is badly harmed by the way that a few activities are the only way to make good money. I know that they need to stop exploits like the Sothis poop-delivery, but is there any reason why assasination or piracy contracts have such abysmal pay? They should be core parts of the game, not 'noob trap' missions.
 
There really is very little sense of progression in this game. Engineers is the only thing that feels like an even half-fleshed out progression system to me. Ranking up sure ain't it. Power Play is..... I honestly have no idea why it exists.

Way back in the day on AOL for like one summer as a kid I played a text game called Federation. It was mostly focused on trading/making money in space. Cursory googling shows that it bounced around from early online service to early online service and eventually came back to life in the form of a remake/sequel that apparently lives to this day. I'm kind of curious to check it out again but the point is that it really nailed the sense of progression and economy elements.

You started off buying the basic ship in Sol. You had to take out a loan to buy the ship. It couldn't jump anywhere, and you didn't have a trading license. So you had to take local computer generated deliveries to pay off your ship. Once you got out of debt you would do some kind of text based quest or something you could then jump out of the system I believe (bear with me it's been over 20 years since I've played this game so the details might be a little off). At that point you could accept delivery missions posted by higher level players, and make a decent amount more money off of it. Once you made enough you could buy your Trader's Permit or whatever... and then you could buy and sell goods on your own. And once you did enough of that and did another quest for your next rank you'd be able to build factories. At which point you start posting deliveries for lower level players to haul shit to your factories, and you'd profit even more while giving good profits for lower level players. And on and on until you got to claim your own planet, and then do all the MUD/MUSH style planet-creation that you wanted.

It's mind boggling to me that a game like Elite Dangerous exists without having something along those lines. Their other big game right now is some kind of roller coaster management sim right? Surely they have the expertise to add business management mechanics to Elite. The progression that I (admittedly vaguely) recall from Federation could almost be copy and pasted in! And the galaxy is a big place, the perfect place for everyone to be able to explore and claim a nice looking system as their own once they achieve the appropriate rank. And then boom you get a terraforming sim. And then being a space billionaire or maybe even trillionaire actually means something.

What I liked about Federation was just how player-driven everything was. In some ways you were competing with people to exploit the best trade routes, get the best contracts from higher level players and the like, but there was also a real symbiosis where what you did in the economy enabled others to function in the economy. The background simulation in Elite is the stupidest shit by comparison, and doesn't feel player-driven in any meaningful way.

Sorry for the wish-list rant, but I guess all the discussion about multi-crew wage cuts for new players kind of triggered me. The laziest shit in a game full of get-rich-quick exploits that does nothing to address the fundamental issues of the game.
 

Burny

Member
Sorry for the wish-list rant, but I guess all the discussion about multi-crew wage cuts for new players kind of triggered me. The laziest shit in a game full of get-rich-quick exploits that does nothing to address the fundamental issues of the game.

All the more ironic in a game that has the tag line "blaze your own trail". Doing everything to prevent players from doing it in a way the immersion idiots or forum dads don't deem appropriate.

But I think players are getting fed up a bit. I start to see comments calling out Sandro Sammarco specifically.

No idea if it would help to just exchange him. Probably. But the giant shit show that is Elite Dangerous' game design can't have been the result of just one person's doing, can it? What if David Braben is the Alpha forum dad?

What's clear however, is that Frontier needs some competent game designers with a spine in positions where they actually have a say over what happens with the game. Desparately. And that those game designers play the bloody game a lot. In their work time.

Imagine all Elite devs playing the game in their work time to specific goals: Gain enough Fed/Imp rank to buy and fit out the rank gated high end ships. Evaluate how good of a playing experience that has been. Explore from "Aimless" to "Elite". Then answer wether they can in good consciousness sell the game to people as a proposition of how to spend their free time. One dancing space doughnut at a time.


As sad as it is to call for somebody's "head", I'm pretty sure that the best thing FDev can do at this point to salvage the game, is to kick out choice decision makers in their game design department or wherever they may sit and finally replace them with capable people. Not necessarily from the company, but at the very least from making those decisions. Their track record with Elite Dangerous is terrible. This includes David Braben, if he is indeed responsible for some of the poor judgement in the game. E.g. total lack of social and guild features. Separate the project from what is dragging it down and limiting its potential. In that case, he, too, should not have a say anymore in how Elite continues to evolve.
 

elyetis

Member
Their other big game right now is some kind of roller coaster management sim right? Surely they have the expertise to add business management mechanics to Elite.
Planet Coaster is a fun game, but I'm pretty sure that almost everyone agree that the management aspect is pretty bad/uninteresting/non challenging.
 
Imagine all Elite devs playing the game in their work time to specific goals: Gain enough Fed/Imp rank to buy and fit out the rank gated high end ships. Evaluate how good of a playing experience that has been. Explore from "Aimless" to "Elite". Then answer wether they can in good consciousness sell the game to people as a proposition of how to spend their free time. One dancing space doughnut at a time.
Hey I like that! The only problem is if you make them play Elite for like 4 hours a day, how do you keep them from quitting their jobs? :)

Planet Coaster is a fun game, but I'm pretty sure that almost everyone agree that the management aspect is pretty bad/uninteresting/non challenging.
I see, so it's more of a 'build cool roller coasters' kind of game. I was envisioning something like those 90s games like Theme Hospital that were fun to play as management sims.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Almost everyone who plays the game universally agrees that the flight model and combat feel awesome.

The great irony there is that somehow despite combat having the most related activities in the game it also simultaneously has nothing going for it.

You can shoot at people in RESs, by nav beacons, in CZs, by interdictions, and uh I guess on the ground. But the end result is always just shoot dudes and get paid. That's it.

PvP is the most dynamic and interesting activity in this game yet it's also the one that is treated with what feels like a 12m pole. fdev makes clear pvp changes only when the problem is on the verge of upsetting the greater community. The last two times they've made pvp changes that were being asked for constantly, fdev didn't even speak up until the pvpers resorted to making everyone else's life hell.

PvP is where almost 90% of engineering actually matters as well as your base load outs, because PvE basically ends once you can A rate a python.

I hate how such amazing mechanics are actually going to waste in this game because elite has some of the best damn combat in the genre.
 
Is PVP interesting though? I specifically have avoided it because there is seemingly no benefit to it, and up until recently when I finally focused on get-rich-quick I've been flying without much in the way of a re-buy war chest. Now that I do have a war chest maybe I'll try to make a cheap build to learn the ropes of PVP, as obviously until I learn how to fight other players I'm going to be losing a lot of engagements. One thing that is clear to me is that PVE builds and tactics aren't so hot for PVP, and vice versa. For PVP I assume I want something designed to take out a single ship as quickly as possible where as my PVE is focused around being able to stay on-site for as long as possible.

But back to the "why?" for a second. Can bounty hunting CMDRs be profitable? Does it make much of a difference for Power Play even though I think PP is trash to begin with? Are there places/situations where people gather to fight against players in larger scale battles or is it mostly just 1v1 or maybe wing v wing?
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
There is literally no benefit to pvp, it used to be good money until fdev capped the bounty claim on players at 1mil.

However it is still an absolute thrill, like I said it's where almost sll of the bonuses from engineering actually end up being used. A 4v4 wing fight is seriously chaotic but in the best way possible.

Most pvp starts with one person ganking people near the community goal and then sides forming until hopefully a show down happens between the gankers and the people trying to do the CG.

PVP is also the closest thing this game has to an end game for many of us.

Bounty hunting has never really been super profitable but it's always been a good way to make a 7 mil an hour for when you just want to refresh your wallet a bit. The infamous 17D conflict zone pay outs are probably the most well known get rich quick schemes in the game where a 1hr trip can yield 70m if you play it right.

So traditional combat isn't a money maker by any means but that doesn't mean there aren't ways of making it big with it.

Also don't be fooled by power play, there is nothing pvp about it. It's a truly pathetic system where you just sign up, forget for 3 weeks and then on the 4th week you grind 750 merits in a few hours by shooting down other powers logistics ships to get your modules.
 
Patch 2.3 will go live during the week ending with April 16th:

https://twitter.com/EliteDangerous/status/847826518814359553

So sometime between 4-10 (Monday) and 4-14 (Friday) most likely.

Time to celebrate.

keZ0mlE.gif
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
So yeah, Frontier is backing off of the diminishing returns on shield booster yet again:

Sandro Sammarco said:
Hello Commanders!

First things first, we’d like to thank everyone who has contributed to these balance tweaks that we have been running. Whether creating videos, giving testament to game play experience or making considered observations – your input is greatly appreciated, regardless which side of the fence you stand on.

By trialling out tweaks to shield booster diminishing returns changes for an extended period, we’ve amassed more feedback than we could have obtained from a single beta. Now we’ve had a chance to go through it all, matching it up against our own thoughts and experiences.

We believe there is a real issue where stacking shield boosters can become a path of least resistance in terms of ship defence and we’re committed to resolving it.

However, after taking the feedback into consideration, we feel that the tweaks we’ve tested are not the best way to address the different (sometimes conflicting) issues in play, in part because of the wide variety of play styles that Elite Dangerous caters to. That’s not to say that we think the changes didn’t address the issues of ships with overly powerful shields, just that the changes were a little too specific.

We feel that alongside any changes to shields, we want to look at complimentary changes, to mitigate various valid concerns that have been raised, such as wing-based combat and extended conflict zone play. So we’re going to step back and take another look at the issue in a holistic manner.

Thank you once again, for all the testing, and for your continued support. We will return to this issue, we’re still confident that, with your help, we can resolve this issue and improve the game combat experience.


WTF??? Why can't Frontier just pull the trigger on this? I'll bet they have yet another mid update beta between 2.3 and 2.4, AGAIN, for this issue. What is going on over at Frontier lately???
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
In case anyone is interested, the prices for pretty much all DLC (except ship kits) in the Frontier Store have been cut, almost in half across the board actually. They are pretty good deals now IMHO.

I'd love to buy some, but I'm on a self imposed boycott of giving Frontier any more money until they do something for exploration mechanics. Maybe by the time they do that things will be even cheaper yet, LOL!!!
 

kennah

Member
In case anyone is interested, the prices for pretty much all DLC (except ship kits) in the Frontier Store have been cut, almost in half across the board actually. They are pretty good deals now IMHO.

I'd love to buy some, but I'm on a self imposed boycott of giving Frontier any more money until they do something for exploration mechanics. Maybe by the time they do that things will be even cheaper yet, LOL!!!

Get back to Diablo
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Get back to Diablo

Ironically, my Season 10 monk is now up to Paragon 232, I just cleared GR48 and am still climbing. I need to level up my gems next.

Yeah, I haven't been playing much Elite lately. :)
 

Volimar

Member
I watch Obsidian Ant videos and get sucked in at how beautiful the game is so I log in and....I have no interest in doing anything. I swear I get more enjoyment out of joyriding in the SRV than anything else right now.
 
I'm glad I'm pretty new to the game so I can still get enjoyment out of just discovering what's out there, unlocking new stuff and looking at pretty stars in VR.
 

zorbsie

Member
Playing on the Xbox, all passenger missions end in 3 hours. Even the 21k Ly missions. Update hitting tonight maybe? But that would be way too late in the UK. Maybe the update will hit tomorrow. Excited to check out the new stuff.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
that sad realization when you've reached the maximum potential accuracy with a hotas and if you want to get gud with fixed weapons you've gotta go back to m+kb

;_;
 
Fuck the all the min/maxing that goes into PvP. CQC was actually pretty fun when it had a bit of life but in galaxy PvP just takes a commitment I can't bring myself to get into.
 
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