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[Benzychenz]

Shit, if you didn't finish the first game don't read this thread.

It certainly stops being a trudge around the half way point at least.

Haha I didn't read any posts for that reason.

I got up to an old ungderground base with the other man and his son.
How far through was I?

 

[BigDes]

Haha I didn't read any posts for that reason.

I got up to an old ungderground base with the other man and his son.
How far through was I?

I'd say coming up on about 1/3

 

[SolidChamp]

I said I was disappointed that we can't play as Joel - he's expressing the same thing.



I've done exactly that. It's not at all because she's a female character - I've explained that I don't like her attitude, her demeanor and I don't like her as a character or even her design - I just don't gel with her.

What female characters DO you like?

Mechanics with short shorts and cleavage-bursting tank tops?

 

[theWB27]

Haha I didn't read any posts for that reason.

I got up to an old ungderground base with the other man and his son.
How far through was I?

Sounds like the beginning damn near?

 

[kyser73]

I wonder if this will have a flashback chapter to either Joel's pre-Ellie life or a key event from the intervening 5 years.

I'm thinking if they're referencing The Godfather maybe we'll see an equivalent story to the Young Vito Corleone sequence.

 

[SolidChamp]

As someone who has been a part of hundreds of game development planning and budgeting meetings over the past 12+ years believe me when I tell you that this post, more than any post that has come before it, is the biggest pile of horseshit ever shoveled onto the eyeballs of the members of NeoGAF.

Yep. Good riddance to a complete fuckhead.

 

[Odrion]

FUCKING KNEW IT.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I'm reading a lot of people who are writing out rather generic endings or ideas where Ellie figures out the big twist/learns about the what happened in Salt Lake City.

It's like everyone forgot what made TLoU so great was the ending and conclusion wasn't generic, and the game ended on such a strong note with the relationship being in question/reinforced/hinging on Ellie accepting a lie...

It should be inherent that the ending of this game is not going to be something we wrote out here or predict here or the blanket "Ellie learns the truth and hates Joel!".

 

[kopitarrulez_11]

Is that not Joel in the trailer standing by the door everyone saying he's gone lol

 

[boredandlazy]

I said I was disappointed that we can't play as Joel - he's expressing the same thing.

But how did you come to your opinion? And how did they? Are they the same?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Haha I didn't read any posts for that reason.

I got up to an old ungderground base with the other man and his son brother.
How far through was I?

You're near the end of Summer, and around 2/5ths through the game.

 

[Rizzi]

Does The Last of Us need a sequel? I thought it ended pretty well.

Spoiler

Playing as Ellie was the best section of that game.

 

[SolidChamp]

I'm reading a lot of people who are writing out rather generic endings or ideas where Ellie figures out the big twist/learns about the what happened in Salt Lake City.

It's like everyone forgot what made TLoU so great was the ending and conclusion wasn't generic, and the game ended on such a strong note with the relationship being in question/reinforced/hinging on Ellie accepting a lie...

It should be inherent that the ending of this game is not going to be something we wrote out here or predict here or the blanket "Ellie learns the truth and hates Joel!".

Go back and read my (rather long) post on the previous page.

I'm one of the few people who never suggested such a thing.

 

[Benzychenz]

I'd say coming up on about 1/3

Sounds like the beginning damn near?

You're near the end of Summer, and around 2/5ths through the game.

Oh geez is that all? Felt like I'd been playing forever at that point.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If I said "Have a nice day" - what would you construe, twist and turn that phrase into?

You know, I would almost say that your post sounds like baiting - it also sounds like you're trying to incite an argument.

TOS - what's it for?

Huh? I didn't twist anything, I quoted you verbatim. You compared playing "a teenage girl" (not specifically THIS teenage girl, you specifically wrote "a teenage girl" to be as unrelatable and off-putting as playing a convicted rapist. That is what you wrote.

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

OMG an alien. What planet are you from?

O_O
..........

Joel needs to die.

What? Why?

I mean... what if it were your daughter?

Clearly understood it better than you guys.

LOL not presumptuous at all are we

For you guys, villains apparently have to be blatant and obvious. David is a villain to you guys because he's a cannibal.

But what Joel does is arguably worse.

What the fuck? No, Joel is not worse than a cannibal pedophile. Jesus christ

After all they have been through, Joel decides to rob Ellie of her agency, much like everyone you consider to be a villain in the game. What makes Joel different? That you controlled him at some point? Who cares?

If nothing else, the railroaded ending proves that they wanted Joel to go full villain at the end.

By the end, Joel doesn't view Ellie as her own person that can make their own choices, or as an adult. He doesn't respect her at all. Instead, he violently and selfishly takes away her choice, then lies to her face about it. And she knows it. She's stuck with yet another person who won't let her make her own choices. She's stuck with a man who will murder innocent people to ensure she doesn't get that choice.

The fireflies being villainous doesn't absolve Joel of being one.

It IS obvious that he's a villain. I'm not sure how you could see the last bit of that game and not understand it.

Joel is selfish, murderous, and a liar. He does it to the person he's closest to left in the world. He doesn't do it for her, he does it for himself.

And sure, you understand why he did it. But it doesn't make him not a villain just because you can empathize. It makes him a good villain. Much like the fireflies, who also have their motivations that we can understand.

He's a monster, just like everyone else. Another vice around Ellie, robbing her of her agency.

Joel denies her the choice because if he hadn't, the Firefly would have denied her the choice first by killing her. Joel didn't have the luxury of asking her about her choice!

Okay so he probably wouldn't have asked her even if he had, mind, because he doesn't want her to die -- but that is understandable. People are protective of their children and loved ones and don't want them to die, even when said loved ones might say "actually I'm OK with dying because reasons".

That doesn't make one monstrous, or evil, it makes them pretty normal, flawed but sympathetic human beings.

Let me ask the same thing I asked Crossing Eden: what if it were your daughter?

No one's ever had a rebuttal to that, honestly. Because no one would ever admit (if they did I probably wouldn't believe them, tbh, or would probably look down on them at least) that they would allow an unscrupulous organization with a dubious track record to kill their child in the far-from-certain hope of some "cure" for humanity. Almost everyone, I'd wager, would have chosen the same thing as Joel (maybe not kill the doctor and Marlene, that's going a step further, though his reasoning of "you'll just keep coming after her" is pretty rock-solid, if we're being honest).

Selfish? Sure. Everyone who wants to protect their loved ones are selfish to some extent. Evil? Monstrous? Please, it's the opposite if anything. Spare me this ridiculous "greater good" moral purity BS, I don't believe for a second that you wouldn't have done the same thing in his place if it had been your child.

So what game were you guys playing?

Condescending comments like this really don't help your case, especially when it's clear that you haven't given this any thought beyond seeing everything in black and white.

Exactly. The fireflies robbed Ellie just as much of the choice yet people keep calling them innocent. It doesn't have to be all black and white. The story is all about grey morality.

Yup.

At no point is this Joel's motivation. At all.

He's saving her for his own mental stability. His motivation is selfish. It's why he lied to her.

This is not mutually exclusive with genuinely loving someone.

you don't lie to people you care about.

Errr

[/IMG]

Yeah. That. xD

Honestly what came to my mind after reading this was... Rod Flanders xD

What even is this post? Faux outrage, instigating? Stealth shitpost? Seriously what is the point of saying this? I dont hear anyone complaining about it, most people here are perfectly fine with a AAA game having a female lead (like others already stated, chloe in uncharted, Aloy in horizon, to name a
Couple that people are fine with)

In fact im almost positive a lot of people here WANTED TLOU part 2 to star Ellie and the fallout of everything from part 1. Stop assuming everyone here are douchebags.

Errr, before getting all, ahem, faux-outraged, you might want to read the thread...

Or, well, this BS:

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

lol

 

[Veelk]

This is off topic, but I've always wondered.

What the hell is this cat looking at.

 

[SomTervo]

I've done exactly that. It's not at all because she's a female character - I've explained that I don't like her attitude, her demeanor and I don't like her as a character or even her design - I just don't gel with her.

That's totally fine. Again, I'd say don't make your argument reductive by making it about her age or sex. She could be a tryhard teen boy and be equally unappealing. Or she could be 50 but have a similar demeanor/design/attitude that you dislike.

Your earlier posts indicated it was all about "i don't relate to teen girls" rather than "i didn't like her as an individual". Characters are more complicated than that.

What did you think of Riley in Left Behind? Very different.

 

[BigDes]

Oh geez is that all? Felt like I'd been playing forever at that point.

It sounds like it from what you describe

It's a longish game.

 

[kyser73]

I think it'd be a great take if Joel had 'fessed up about the Salt Lake City thing, and that Ellie gets pissed at the Firefies & their ethically bereft approach to experimenting on a traumatised minor who in no way at all was in a suitable state of mind to consent to a medical procedure that would have definitely killed her.

 

[mitch1971]

Day zero. Can't wait.

 

[SomTervo]

As someone who has been a part of hundreds of game development planning and budgeting meetings over the past 12+ years believe me when I tell you that this post, more than any post that has come before it, is the biggest pile of horseshit ever shoveled onto the eyeballs of the members of NeoGAF.

Haha, oh, man! I didn't even want to dip my toes into that post.

 

[Hubb]

Does The Last of Us need a sequel? I thought it ended pretty well.

Spoiler

Playing as Ellie was the best section of that game.

Yes it ended pretty well, and yes it deserves a good sequel.

 

[theWB27]

Huh? I didn't twist anything, I quoted you verbatim. You compared playing "a teenage girl" (not specifically THIS teenage girl, you specifically wrote "a teenage girl" to be as unrelatable and off-putting as playing a convicted rapist. That is what you wrote.


OMG an alien. What planet are you from?


What? Why?

I mean... what if it were your daughter?


LOL not presumptuous at all are we


What the fuck? No, Joel is not worse than a cannibal pedophile. Jesus christ



Joel denies her the choice because if he hadn't, the Firefly would have denied her the choice first by killing her. Joel didn't have the luxury of asking her about her choice!

Okay so he probably wouldn't have asked her even if he had, mind, because he doesn't want her to die -- but that is understandable. People are protective of their children and loved ones and don't want them to die, even when said loved ones might say "actually I'm OK with dying because reasons".

That doesn't make one monstrous, or evil, it makes them pretty normal, flawed but sympathetic human beings.

Let me ask the same thing I asked Crossing Eden: what if it were your daughter?

No one's ever had a rebuttal to that, honestly. Because no one would ever admit (if they did I probably wouldn't believe them, tbh, or would probably look down on them at least) that they would allow an unscrupulous organization with a dubious track record to kill their child in the far-from-certain hope of some "cure" for humanity. Almost everyone, I'd wager, would have chosen the same thing as Joel (maybe not kill the doctor and Marlene, that's going a step further, though his reasoning of "you'll just keep coming after her" is pretty rock-solid, if we're being honest).

Selfish? Sure. Everyone who wants to protect their loved ones are selfish to some extent. Evil? Monstrous? Please, it's the opposite if anything. Spare me this ridiculous "greater good" moral purity BS, I don't believe for a second that you wouldn't have done the same thing in his place if it had been your child.


Condescending comments like this really don't help your case, especially when it's clear that you haven't given this any thought beyond seeing everything in black and white.


Yup.


This is not mutually exclusive with genuinely loving someone.


Errr


Yeah. That. xD

Honestly what came to my mind after reading this was... Rod Flanders xD


Errr, before getting all, ahem, faux-outraged, you might want to read the thread...

Or, well, this BS:


lol

As i said....taking what I said literally sounds crazy. In the context of what I was saying makes sense.

If someone you care about asks you an important question and you still lie to their face. It could set that relationship back.

So that's the way I look at how Ellie would've taken that lie.

I'm good with that opinion because gaf knows as much as I do about something that was left up for interpretation.

 

[Skux]

This is hardly a "politically correct" decision. Ellie makes perfect sense to be the main player character of this game, seeing as you played as her for like 1/3 of the first game. It fits right into the style of the series, and no doubt there will be sections where you play as Joel as well.

Also, the "Joel is dead and she's talking to his ghost" theory is just silly. Unlike the first point it doesn't fit in at all with the style and storytelling devices of the world of TLoU.

 

[SolidChamp]

In all fairness, females would never be on any team of trained killers. They're physically inferior. But I agree.

What in the ever-loving fuck?

I'd invite you to read Y: The Last Man. The historical FACTS that are represented in that graphic novel will cause your brain to fucking melt.

I'd also invite you to say something like that to the female Israeli Defense Forces soldiers. Count how many teeth you have left over, which will number in the single digits.

Dumbass.

 

[Kinyou]

Joel denies her the choice because if he hadn't, the Firefly would have denied her the choice first by killing her. Joel didn't have the luxury of asking her about her choice!

Okay so he probably wouldn't have asked her even if he had, mind, because he doesn't want her to die -- but that is understandable. People are protective of their children and loved ones and don't want them to die, even when said loved ones might say "actually I'm OK with dying because reasons".

That doesn't make one monstrous, or evil, it makes them pretty normal, flawed but sympathetic human beings.

Let me ask the same thing I asked Crossing Eden: what if it were your daughter?

No one's ever had a rebuttal to that, honestly. Because no one would ever admit (if they did I probably wouldn't believe them, tbh, or would probably look down on them at least) that they would allow an unscrupulous organization with a dubious track record to kill their child in the far-from-certain hope of some "cure" for humanity. Almost everyone, I'd wager, would have chosen the same thing as Joel (maybe not kill the doctor and Marlene, that's going a step further, though his reasoning of "you'll just keep coming after her" is pretty rock-solid, if we're being honest).

Selfish? Sure. Everyone who wants to protect their loved ones are selfish to some extent. Evil? Monstrous? Please, it's the opposite if anything. Spare me this ridiculous "greater good" moral purity BS, I don't believe for a second that you wouldn't have done the same thing in his place if it had been your child.


Condescending comments like this really don't help your case, especially when it's clear that you haven't given this any thought beyond seeing everything in black and white.

Hot damn! Really nothing to add.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Neil said that if the first game is built around what love and building a relationship can do to people, than Part II is the antithesis of that, and what hate can do to a person and how hate can drive a person.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

As i said....taking what I said literally sounds crazy. In the context of what I was saying makes sense.

If someone you care about asks you an important question and you still lie to their face. It could set that relationship back.

So that's the way I look at how Ellie would've taken that lie.

I'm good with that opinion because gaf knows as much as I do about something that was left up for interpretation.

That's why people lie.

A lie is a calculated risk, especially in terms of relationships and loved ones.

It's literally one of the most human things, saying "you don't lie to people you care about" is one of the most naive things I've ever read. It flies in the face of any type of real life experience of dealing with family/friends/loved ones.

 

[R00bot]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

Nah, I'd say this is about as natural a progression as you could expect for this story going forwards.
A good example of this is the new Ghostbusters movie though, that definitely did feel forced.

 

[Strike]

Cool.

 

[SomTervo]

Haha I didn't read any posts for that reason.

I got up to an old ungderground base with the other man and his son.
How far through was I?

That's a great bit. I can't really remember, it's a long game. Maybe half way, but that may also be the end of Pitsburgh - and notoriously "the game doesn't pick up until after Pitsburgh". I don't agree with that but a lot of people say it.

If it's too much of a slog either drop the difficulty to Easy or bump it to Hard with Listen Mode off. Hard may immerse you a lot more with tougher mechanics and more strategy (you really live their challenges and intense experiences) while Easy will let you blow through slow parts.

Christ i need to go to sleep.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Nah, I'd say this is about as natural a progression as you could expect for this story going forwards.
A good example of this is the new Ghostbusters movie though, that definitely did feel forced.

Except that was Paul Feig doing his thing.

Like literally he likes to do women lead comedies so when he got hired to do the movie he did a women lead comedy.

 

[OrionX]

Ellie being the mc makes complete sense from a story perspective. I always thought that if they made another one, the first game was a great "origin story" for her.

And to those who prefer Joel, Ellie will probably be more Joel-like than ever after spending so much time with him. I'm sure her close combat skills will be different, but I expect she'll be more than capable.

Neil said that if the first game is built around what love and building a relationship can do to people, than Part II is the antithesis of that, and what hate can do to a person and how hate can drive a person.

This road can't end well, Ellie...

 

[theWB27]

That's why people lie.

A lie is a calculated risk, especially in terms of relationships and loved ones.

I'm am not denying that. I'm simply stating the impact Joels lie could have on Ellie based on all that crap they just went through.

I think Ellie knew he was lying. I think it could've eroded their relationship heading into this sequel. Especially with hate being a theme.

I was enjoying the debate with you boss...but Ill read your response and leave this where it is. That gif was just unneeded in a conversation full of how one took what happened during this game with very little being concrete.

 

[I-hate-u]

Lol at the Joel is going to die.

That's the typical way of doing things. Not Druckmann, Ellie is the one dies bros, and she will do it protecting Joel, dying in his arms. This will spiral Joel in despair and depression and make him go blind and mute.

 

[SomTervo]

Neil said that if the first game is built around what love and building a relationship can do to people, than Part II is the antithesis of that, and what hate can do to a person and how hate can drive a person.

This is going to be dark.

As if that wasn't already obvious from the trailer.

My money is on Ellie's resentment of Joel and what they did growing into an all-consuming monster inside her that drives her to horrific decisions and acts. That she'll hate Joel for him pulling her into everything they did in Part I and his deception.

I'm rewatching Buffy at the moment and it reminds me of Faith's fall from grace after the accidental murder.

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

I don't get the laughing. Sure you lie to people like your family, partner or other, but this isn't the same world as ours. This isn't a "I'm caught up at work" or "I don't know" type of lie. This is the end of the world and they've been through some HEAVY things. They've killed and nearly been killed many times over. You don't think Ellie has some huge weight on her shoulders? She could have been the one to stop an outbreak that has taken quite a few people that she cared about away from her. Joel had not been the most caring or nurturing to her and lying straight to her face gives her an even bigger reason to be jaded and resentful. He couldn't be open about what he did and he comes off as cold even if he did save her.

 

[EviLore]

Neil said that if the first game is built around what love and building a relationship can do to people, than Part II is the antithesis of that, and what hate can do to a person and how hate can drive a person.

The first game is bleaker than some Cormac McCarthy novels...

 

[mitch1971]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

oh please.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I don't get the laughing. Sure you lie to people like your family, partner or other, but this isn't the same world as ours. This isn't a "I'm caught up at work" or "I don't know" type of lie. This is the end of the world and they've been through some HEAVY things. They've killed and nearly been killed many times over. You don't think Ellie has some huge weight on her shoulders? She could have been the one to stop an outbreak that has taken quite a few people that she cared about away from her. Joel had not been the most caring or nurturing to her and lying straight to her face gives her an even bigger reason to be jaded and resentful. He couldn't be open about what he did and he comes off as cold even if he did save her.

I'm not denying the burden Ellie clearly feels of having so many people die around her for a cause that has turned out to be bunk.

I was pointing out that "you don't lie to people you care about" isn't something based in reality or even human nature.

The first game is bleaker than some Cormac McCarthy novels...

If love can make a man take a flamethrower to the last remaining neurosurgeon on the continental United States, I can't wait to see what hate can make a women do!

 

[R00bot]

Except that was Paul Feig doing his thing.

Like literally he likes to do women lead comedies so when he got hired to do the movie he did a women lead comedy.

Yeah I know he's had a history of women lead comedies.
If the higher ups had wanted a movie with men in it they would have got a different director.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah I know he's had a history of women lead comedies.
If the higher ups had wanted a movie with men in it they would have got a different director.

Then it's not forced...

It was his idea. He brought it to them.

 

[Metroidvania]

Neil said that if the first game is built around what love and building a relationship can do to people, than Part II is the antithesis of that, and what hate can do to a person and how hate can drive a person.

Hoo boy.

This is gonna get rooooough.

Wonder if (or more likely, how many) Joel-endgame moments Ellie will have.

 

[theWB27]

I don't get the laughing. Sure you lie to people like your family, partner or other, but this isn't the same world as ours. This isn't a "I'm caught up at work" or "I don't know" type of lie. This is the end of the world and they've been through some HEAVY things. They've killed and nearly been killed many times over. You don't think Ellie has some huge weight on her shoulders? She could have been the one to stop an outbreak that has taken quite a few people that she cared about away from her. Joel had not been the most caring or nurturing to her and lying straight to her face gives her an even bigger reason to be jaded and resentful. He couldn't be open about what he did and he comes off as cold even if he did save her.

It was a really stupid response. It's human nature to feel like you can trust the people closest to you not to lie to your face when it comes down to it.

 

[R00bot]

Then it's not forced...

It was his idea. He brought it to them.

What I meant was that it didn't feel like a natural progression for the franchise.
I definitely think that having Ellie as the main character in TLOU2 is perfect though.

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

The first game is bleaker than some Cormac McCarthy novels...

The Road can't be topped imo

I'm not denying the burden Ellie clearly feels of having so many people die around her for a cause that has turned out to be bunk.

I was pointing out that "you don't lie to people you care about" isn't something based in reality or even human nature.

Could be subjective.

It was a really stupid response. It's human nature to feel like you can trust the people closest to you not to lie to your face when it comes down to it.

Precisely

 

[BigDes]

At a guess, something is going to happen to Ellie, she will go on a rampage.

However in the midst of this rampage she will kill someone's loved one or parent or kid and someone tries to get revenge on Ellie for this

Leading to a whole horrible whirlwind of death and recrimination until one of them finally puts down the gun/bow

 

[R00bot]

At a guess, something is going to happen to Ellie, she will go on a rampage.

However in the midst of this rampage she will kill someone's loved one or parent or kid and someone tries to get revenge on Ellie for this

Leading to a whole horrible whirlwind of death and recrimination until one of them finally puts down the gun/bow

I could definitely see something like this happening. What I love about the prospect for this sequel is that they could go in so many different directions, and you just know it'll be good no matter what they do.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

I mean if you're gonna be posting Milo's shit while complaining about men being feminists you'd be much more welcome on kotakuinaction or voat instead of a progressive forum, because no one here likes assholes. Ellie is literally singing after having killed a bunch of people with fresh wounds and somehow this won't be visceral, Joel hasn't done anywhere near this metal.

Uhh.. what in the interdimensional fuck? Lol. I think you replied to the wrong person.

 

[Hubb]

If love can make a man take a flamethrower to the last remaining neurosurgeon on the continental United States, I can't wait to see what hate can make a women do!

No evidence that is true. I'm sure it wouldn't matter who it was though. Nothing stops the Joel train.