Emulation, the Law, and You (YouTube Video)
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Allnamestakenlol
Member
Summary?
Elektro Demon
Banned
Emulation is the best when it comes down to older hardware.
As for legality, I think it's already been proven countless times that emulation is legal. Downloading ROMS, well that ain't.
As for legality, I think it's already been proven countless times that emulation is legal. Downloading ROMS, well that ain't.
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SidViscous
Member
Distributing ROMs without the relevant ownership/permissions is illegal, downloading ROMs may or may not be legal depending on where you are getting them from. You could buy a bunch of ROM's in a humblebundle a while back, 100% legal.
Downloading ROMs for old games that you cannot reasonably buy or acquire in 2020 is a slippery slope, as things increasingly move over to digital it won't just be a gaming problem, the music industry faced this already with the mp3 format but Spotify and iTunes show that users will still pay for this stuff given the chance. With games and film, it gets a bit more complicated, as often they contain material licenced from somewhere else (characters, music etc). The legal cost in trying to tidy up ownership of some of these make it financially untenable to put them on a virtual console or Netflix style library.
Emulation software is preservation, and preservation is good for almost everyone involved. Even if some megacorp funded laws came into play to make it illegal, it wouldn't change the fact that emulation = good. We have a limited timeframe in which to archive this stuff, so morally I feel it's okay to ignore certain laws if games risk being lost forever whilst the lawmakers figure it all out.
Thankfully with all these mini consoles releasing, it looks like even the big companies are starting to see the value in keeping digital vault of their old games and technology. And there are now quite a few preservation groups, and even archive.org, which will help ensure future generations can mock how shitty our 8-bit games were.
BacklashWave534
Member
I could care less about the law. The industry does a terrible job of preserving their products so we have step in and do it for them.
DESTROYA
Member
That's a pretty weak excuse? There are a lot of ways to play old video games like actually finding the software and hardware to play them properly.
JSoup
Banned
As with the last emulation thread you took over with this argument, you're missing the point.
DESTROYA
Member
I did? Either I'm losing my mind but I don't remember doing that at all? You sure you don't have me confused with someone else?
nkarafo
Member
Yeah but the virtual console is far worse than your average homebrew emulator of fancy frontend. Just like most other official efforts. Homebrew emulation has gone a long way and companies don't care much, they only offer the minimum standard, let alone messing with the roms by censoring them or changing them.
JSoup
Banned
Having finally located the thread I'm speaking of, I absolutely do have the wrong person!
Deep apologies, my friend, I'm a fool with a bad memory.
So I'm actually contributing something this time, here is a presentation from an industry veteran about the pros/cons and difficulties there in on emulation:
Sp3eD
0G M3mbeR
That was a great video. Watched it all and totally agree about the stuff like goldeneye. I haven't played the game for 20 years due to it not being on anything else, where I play perfect dark whenever I want to boot up the Xbox one.
To go on a different tangent, For all it's faults the Wii U n64 emulator was good enough for my play through Mario 64, fzero x,OoT and MM. it's sad to come to the realization that Nintendo probably has no real plans for N64 games and if they do it will be for a minuscule amount of games In September to get people to get a year sub. then treat it like they are doing with snes right now and give us fuck all for like 3 months before dropping table scraps.
To go on a different tangent, For all it's faults the Wii U n64 emulator was good enough for my play through Mario 64, fzero x,OoT and MM. it's sad to come to the realization that Nintendo probably has no real plans for N64 games and if they do it will be for a minuscule amount of games In September to get people to get a year sub. then treat it like they are doing with snes right now and give us fuck all for like 3 months before dropping table scraps.
Fbh
Member
I'm glad law enforcement in my country doesn't give a fuck about this. The only people I see getting upset about this is collectors because emulation makes their stuff less exclusive and unique.
With plenty of pedophiles, drug dealers, piracy of current stuff and many other nasty shit out there, someone downloading a rom of a 30 years old game that hasn't been on sale for decades from a dev or publisher that has shown no interest in re-releasing it or making it available on current systems should be at very bottom of the priority list.
And as for the part of the video I saw. I definitely think emulation and dumping of legally purchased game should be and remain legal.
With plenty of pedophiles, drug dealers, piracy of current stuff and many other nasty shit out there, someone downloading a rom of a 30 years old game that hasn't been on sale for decades from a dev or publisher that has shown no interest in re-releasing it or making it available on current systems should be at very bottom of the priority list.
And as for the part of the video I saw. I definitely think emulation and dumping of legally purchased game should be and remain legal.
BacklashWave534
Member
Please explain to me how paying 10x (or more) the original retail price to people on EBAY helps devs or publishers. Not to mention most stuff IS NOT easily accessible and would likely disappear altogether as original hardware and software will eventually break down and be unusable. The items that are highly preserved are sitting in game collections or museums which makes them inaccessible to any normal person. Please stop shilling for mult-billion dollar companies that could care less if you're even drawing breath. We aren't talking about selling their products, we are simply saying that they need to be preserved.
DESTROYA
Member
And who are you to steal there intellectual property? You aren't talking about preservation just your own desire to play those games free. Stop fooling yourself.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
People seem to forget that there are current developments for emulation of the last gen era, and the PS3 one is progressing well.
I think that there's certainly a line to be drawn, between wanting software for free and preserving old, rare games. IMO emulation is a moral grey area, some abuse it, and there are many factors to take into account.
BacklashWave534
Member
The last time i fired up an emulator was to play Persona 3 on my PC and i have 2 copies of the physical version. So go ahead, tell me about my own personal desires. Please just go away. You're shilling is making me ill.
TriSuit666
Banned
This Is The Way.
TriSuit666
Banned
Don't be a fool.
Go and educate yourself with the MVG CPS Suicide Project, and how all those fine games were only saved by a combination of dumping and reverse engineering the boards (not to mention his own Cannonball project).
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DESTROYA
Member
Hit a nerve did I.
Dont be foolish to delude yourself into thinking that stealing someones intellectual property is doing something other than feeding his own greed.
We might be talking about 2 different things, emulation in itself is fine as long as you don't pirate the source material is more where I'm coming from and you know yourself that most people that use these emulators pirate the games they use and don't have them ripped from the software they own.
Great Hair
Banned
Some say it's an euphemism for piracy.
Rayderism
Member
I have a selfish view on this subject. If a website presents itself where I can just click on a file and get it, and there is a solid emulator to run that file I also can just click and get, I will take advantage of that. Maybe it's illegal, but don't hassle me about it, go after the site that made it available if it bothers certain people so much.
Blond
Banned
Emulation and backing up your own property remains in a very flexible gray area and only seems to be a problem when you try to profit from it.
I watched it yesterday, it's a solid video.
Allnamestakenlol
Member
Thank you kindly.
Romulus
Member
I have an og xbox with over 60k games with save states.
I'll gladly not hunt those down. Not to mention I've been burned with old hardware before. Buy it and it works for 3 months and dies. Fuck all that.
JSoup
Banned
An argument I see preservationists/archivists make, and not just in relation to video games, is just wanting to save something and just wanting to use something are the same argument when you're talking about media. In theory, the point behind preservation isn't just keeping something safe for the sake of keeping it safe, although that can be a reason too depending on the medium, but to allow for more people to consume, appreciate and experience whatever is being preserved.
Don't be that guy.
Don't be that guy.
DESTROYA
Member
Im generally not but if someone calls me a fool for sharing my opinion and cant take any criticism I dish back deserves it.
There is truth to what I pointed out that most people that use emulators pirate the games, it's a ugly truth.
I have no problem with people using emulators just the way people take advantage of situations.
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sol_bad
Member
When you buy 2nd hand the IP owners aren't getting paid. So there is no difference between buying 2nd hand or downloading roms.
TriSuit666
Banned
No, not at all, I could care less what you think.
However, it's proven time and again the same thing you're lambasting has been the very reason why games have remained preserved, and indeed why games that people never knew existed have come to light.
The 'emulation is piracy' argument is as old as the hills and played out, go get some fresh air.
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DESTROYA
Member
Yeah because that's what people that pirate games tell themselves to justify there actions but there is a lot of truth to it.
Emulation in itself is fine it's stealing the ROMS that's not cool.....and you have to admit yourself most people that use emulators pirate ROMS . Not everyone but a lot of them do.
brap
Banned
Ok Pat The Nes Punk. Let me drop $20-$500 dollars on every NES and SNES game I want to play that isn't available on steam, eshop, etc.
The truth is the Copyright should last only 20-30 years. No more.
It single handedly solves all the issues and clears all the gray areas.
Games before 2000, or 1995 should more or less be in the public domain already.
Imagine paying money for shitty old NES, SNES ROMS, etc. And the ridiculous prices Nintendo charges for them, etc.
DESTROYA
Member
That's a entirely different story.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
EightBit Man
Member
I don't think a lot of the people who played crucial parts creating old games see anything from re-released games. All we have is copyright-holding companies that earn money from purchases. Do you want to give money to people who had nothing to do with the creative process of classic games? Also, many games and their former companies got bankrupt, and don't have current copyright holders.
In the end, I think the way companies handle their legacy content is disgraceful to say the least, from both the standpoint of preservation, as well as lack of viable options, and the milking of customers. I have zero problems with people downloading ROM sets from the internet. Personally, I've contributed enough over the last three decades of gaming, and looking back I may have bought too many games multiple times over the decades. Are they expecting me to purchase them again? What do they think we are, fools? It is not as if we're dealing with robust, physical media from back in the day either.
The copyright nonsense needs to change. After a certain period of time, games should become public domain.
In the end, I think the way companies handle their legacy content is disgraceful to say the least, from both the standpoint of preservation, as well as lack of viable options, and the milking of customers. I have zero problems with people downloading ROM sets from the internet. Personally, I've contributed enough over the last three decades of gaming, and looking back I may have bought too many games multiple times over the decades. Are they expecting me to purchase them again? What do they think we are, fools? It is not as if we're dealing with robust, physical media from back in the day either.
The copyright nonsense needs to change. After a certain period of time, games should become public domain.
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bronk
Banned
Tell me how I can play Doom RPG or Scott Pilgrim legally?
brap
Banned
That's a pretty shit post. I want to play Ducktales 2. It's not available on eshop, etc. Now I have to drop ~$250 bucks on a copy?You can't play every game ever created, cmonbrap your better than that.
That's like saying you want a new car and then going to a dealership and stealing one because it was just sitting there with the keys in it.
DESTROYA
Member
Just because you want to doesn't mean you should.
bronk
Banned
brap
Banned
It was an example now answer my question. How are me andCmon
bronk
gonna play Bonk's Adventure on NES? Pay $600+ for a copy?BTW how many overpriced retro games do you currently have listed on ebay?
Kenpachii
Member
Its legal, obviously.
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