kevboard
Member
yup. the GBA was basically spawn camped by emulators lol
Do YOU think Emulation is the same as Piracy ?
- Thread starter adamsapple
- Start date
yup. the GBA was basically spawn camped by emulators lol
Wolzard
Member
Correlation does not imply causation. This is a fallacy.
Emulators are designed to replicate hardware/software on another platform for which it was not originally designed. The computing industry in general has used this for decades.
However, just as it's possible to use piracy on original hardware, if the emulator is a copy, it will behave the same way. And people take advantage of this.
Emulators are designed to replicate hardware/software on another platform for which it was not originally designed. The computing industry in general has used this for decades.
However, just as it's possible to use piracy on original hardware, if the emulator is a copy, it will behave the same way. And people take advantage of this.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Knifes too. And baseball bats, ropes, cars, etc etc.
Anthony Soprano
Member
I bought all the first party Nintendo games so I'd have physical copies of them and I play them in 4K. What you're arguing for is DRM for the sake of DRM, to put a broom handle up the butt of the consumer for profit margins. Won't somebody PLEASE think of the megacorps? Your argument makes zero sense from a consumer protection standpoint. By your logic, it would allow a software publisher to restrict a VR game to a specific VR headset for no reason other than "buy our piece of plastic and silicon, too!"
Back in the day, console hardware wasn't so similar to PC hardware, so it wasn't possible to emulate a lot of niche consoles easily. Why should there be a barrier to a better gaming experience behind a hardware paywall? Half of the point in the console manufacturers not moving their first party titles to PC, especially in the case of Nintendo, is likely so they can nickel and dime the consumer under the guise of a unique experience that is actually worse than what a lot of them they already own and play PC games on. Most of the time they deliver hardware with planned obsolence that isn't modular or repairable by the consumer, hardware that is usually behind in tech so that they can sell you something it should have came with in the next two years under the guise of an upgrade.
You say you draw the line at systems and software no longer in retail production - why? You're still ripping off Nintendo and all the other companies when you load an 8-bit or 16-bit rom, because those can still be sold electronically through their first-party emulators. When you buy a game these days, do you think the original developers are getting royalties or anything? Your money is going to executives and publishers and storefronts that weren't even involved with the development of the game.
Your console gets banned as soon as you connect to the service with it, regardless of whether you only play homebrew or play game dumps you made or game dumps someone else made. It's been that way since PS3/360 days. It's very clear you aren't in the scene of true preservation, or anti-DRM that hurts the consumer experience, or believe in being able to own the actual hardware you purchase. So, you might want to step out of this conversation if all you're going to do is call people liars. It doesn't seem like you have a horse in it beyond white knighting a megacorp that constantly rips off it's customers with poor quality products.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
There are/were also plenty of games sold on GoG that were essentially ROMs.
Anthony Soprano
Member
If you wanna talk about things that are illegal, we should start talking about how really shitty software should be able to be refunded and more consumer protection laws around it. Above video, in my opinion, just shows that Nintendo is a shitball company now that doesn't care about making a quality product - even around their most popular first party intellectual properties. If you can only get a good experience out of the broken product you paid for by buying ANOTHER product (IE; Switch 2) or modding to overclock (and then being banned from Nintendo Switch Online forever), then you're a shitball company that should go the way of the dinosaur.
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Which ones? I thought they were going to start doing ROMs with the semi recent Breath of Fire IV release. But it turns out there was a mostly unknown PC release which was updated.
They have so far stuck to PC games even for games people have been asking for Amiga or FM Towns versions which were better than the DOS release.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Emulation is the gateway leading to piracy.
Dacvak
No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
I used emulators everyday…
…when I play the NSO games on my Switch. So no, it's not piracy.
…when I play the NSO games on my Switch. So no, it's not piracy.
I'm not being high and mighty, though. I also use PC emulators. Just making a point.
Felessan
Member
In particular cases - no
In general - yes
Normally you have a right to emulate something you own
But 99% of emulators users don't bother with legally obtaining copy and that's piracy
And unless game explicitly was shared with public no matter how abandonware it is, it's still a theft to download it's copy. IP rights protected for 70 years after author death and successor can claim rights any time, and they are not obliged to share rights to anyone (sell copies of product).
In general - yes
Normally you have a right to emulate something you own
But 99% of emulators users don't bother with legally obtaining copy and that's piracy
And unless game explicitly was shared with public no matter how abandonware it is, it's still a theft to download it's copy. IP rights protected for 70 years after author death and successor can claim rights any time, and they are not obliged to share rights to anyone (sell copies of product).
nkarafo
Member
What do pirated rom sites have to do with emulation?
Emulation is legal. Pirated rom sites are not.
Felessan
Member
Stealing leased car is still a theft
Anthony Soprano
Member
Emulation is the gateway to modding, improvement, preservation.
Bad DRM is the gateway leading to piracy. Not investing in their hardware security. Not adopting technology like Denuvo. If Nintendo just went to Steam/Epic or it's own PC client (they wouldn't do the former because they are cheapskates and the latter because they are horrible architects), they could adopt Denuvo and never have to deal with piracy by in large, although there are minor exceptions to Denuvo cracks. But hey, then they wouldn't be able to charge you money to play online when Valve does it for free, baby.
"One thing that we have learned is that piracy is not a pricing issue. It's a service issue," explained Newell during his time on stage at the Washington Technology Industry Association's (WTIA) Tech NW conference. "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."
- Gabe Newell
Imagine being Nintendo with source code and not being able to even touch what cleanroom decompilations can do. Mind boggling how inept they are.
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Naz93
Neo Member
No but they're heavily restricted everywhere (excluding the US), and you still have to pay for a gun license. Emulators have no restrictions.
Gambit2483
Member
It's a very thin line, and more often than not emulation eventually leads to piracy. Sure there are some people out there doing it "the right way" but the vast majority are using illegal ROMS.
Kni
Knifes have no restrictions, as don't many other items that can be used as weapon. This is a winless argument.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Ftfy. Math is hard, huh?
Lionel Richie
Member
Riddle me this Batman: Nintendo emulators ESPECIALLY for the N64 and GC are nowhere near the ones you can find for free. Why should I play the degraded version? I heard the same applies for Snoy and their classics, though I haven't verified it myself. Shouldn't we first demand better from publishers to present their legacy titles reasonably?
kevboard
Member
yup, as always, it's a service issue.
Nintendo's own Emulators suck compared to the ones available elsewhere... so I go elsewhere...
nkarafo
Member
Emulators are simply tools. They allow you to play your games on different platforms with various improvements, conveniences and quality of life features.
Its not the emulator's fault someone decided to dump all of their games and share them online. That's the illegal part, not the emulators themselves.
Also, it's not only emulators that "enable" this behavior, modded consoles also do that. Some consoles aren't even emulated well enough so all of their roms exist sorely to play on their modded versions. Or you can just use flash carts and everdrives on regular consoles.
Its not the emulator's fault someone decided to dump all of their games and share them online. That's the illegal part, not the emulators themselves.
Also, it's not only emulators that "enable" this behavior, modded consoles also do that. Some consoles aren't even emulated well enough so all of their roms exist sorely to play on their modded versions. Or you can just use flash carts and everdrives on regular consoles.
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ByWatterson
Member
Depends entirely on what and when you're emulating.
Out of print stuff? Not available new? No.
Stuff that's on the shelves today and you don't buy a copy of the thing you're emulating? 100% theft.
Out of print stuff? Not available new? No.
Stuff that's on the shelves today and you don't buy a copy of the thing you're emulating? 100% theft.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Bunch of older SNK games had ROMs, I believe.
Anthony Soprano
Member
Go to store, buy fruit/vegetable (Nintendo Switch)
Come home, open package but realize fruit has gone bad because farm sat on it too long (Nintendo releasing shitty laggy games on seven year old hardware)
Plant seeds from fruit in backyard to grow your own fresh fruit that isn't rotten (play on emulator for better experience)
Seed/farm company comes and rips your plants out of the ground and threatens you with a lawsuit (Nintendo shuts down emulators)
Service issue, consumer rights issue, a brainwashed society issue. It turns out if Nintendo had just made their own first party emulator, rom dumping tools that embed a unique identifier on the ROM, gave the emulator unique features and game enhancements, etc then most people would have opted for the official experience and unofficial dumps wouldn't be an issue in the first place. You live, you learn, but unfortunately they're a greedy megacorp that won't learn any lesson here.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
So are PCs, Macs, consoles, phones, browsers, torrent clients...
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nial
Member
It's genuinely ruining discussion here. I was having an argument with some user on another thread, and the guy straight up told me that he didn't want to do the proper research to actually contribute to the conversation, only to instead rely on some stupid AI to support his point, while also insisting that AI is a 'more powerful and context sensitive search engine'. I told him that I come across with AI hallucination bullshit all the time, and it just happened again when doing some random search on Google, lmao.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Streaming also uses PCs, consoles, emulators...
IFireflyl
Gold Member
The DMCA explicitly states that you cannot circumvent DRM.
The only exceptions to this (for video games) are for abandonware, inoperability (e.g. online game where servers are shut down), or repair (fixing software issues).
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
True, but your only way to access games will be through controlled servers. And that's a good thing.
Ownership will soon be a thing of the past.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
It's back to the debate of guns don't kill people, it's the person who does.
Is emulation automatically piracy no? For example I own breath of the wild, yet I never completed it on my switch. I did so at 4k 60fps on pc a few years back.
Does everyone do what I described to legally own a game before making it pumped out? No. They just never buy it and steal the game to play on PC.
Or, what is someone to do for an old game that is no longer in print with absurdly high prices, needing a crtv, an old console etc. Likely play on emulator.
If the official company is no longer printing copies or putting it available on modern hardware with a good version, then no one should call this piracy, it's just the only real way to access the title now.
Then there's piracy. Just flat out downloading games with the intent to not pay a dime lol.
Is emulation automatically piracy no? For example I own breath of the wild, yet I never completed it on my switch. I did so at 4k 60fps on pc a few years back.
Does everyone do what I described to legally own a game before making it pumped out? No. They just never buy it and steal the game to play on PC.
Or, what is someone to do for an old game that is no longer in print with absurdly high prices, needing a crtv, an old console etc. Likely play on emulator.
If the official company is no longer printing copies or putting it available on modern hardware with a good version, then no one should call this piracy, it's just the only real way to access the title now.
Then there's piracy. Just flat out downloading games with the intent to not pay a dime lol.
Gotcha, those are also available on Steam and quite a few were also given away with Prime Gaming.
They're a little different than just an emulator as some of them offer achievements and have online play. If you dig around in the files you can see ROMs. I'm not sure if they are encrypted but the ones I checked have a different naming scheme from regular sets.
Capcom did the same thing with their collection for their arcade games as well as the Mega Man collections.
I still think Sega's Genesis/Mega Drive Collection was still the best. I has Steam Workshop support so people could upload ips patches and it's a single click through Steam and you can play modified version of the games right in their official emulator. The emulation wasn't anything special, but it had VR support where you had an 90s room and would take the cartridges off your bookshelf and insert them into the console to play on your CRT TV.
bender
What time is it?
It's even more complicated than that. Did you dump your own copy to play? If you did, you are probably in the tiniest of minorities. No judgement either way.
phant0m
Member
Older systems have hundreds of games that have never been available again beyond the 20 games Nintendo has re-released on every platform, so get the fuck out of here with "emulating 16-bit era games is still piracy because they're on NSO"
Fundamentally, I have nothing against you buying a Switch, buying a games and then playing that game on an emulator. Let's pretend you actually do that. Unfortunately, the vast, vast majority of people using those emulators are not and that shit is pure piracy.
And that pissed off Nintendo so bad that ROMs of way older games that used to be easily accessible on public sites have disappeared so don't even try to play the "preservationist" angle. Not to mention the fact that games you're claiming to "preserve" are readily available for sale at Amazon and Target.
Is it ideal? No, but I'd rather wait on emulation of current-gen systems then have Nintendo go on the warpath against everything.
And a side note, you've got some real whiplash going on with saying "don't worry, I buy it all" and then 2 sentences later blasting them "ripoff with poor quality products". Why are you so fucking desperate to play it then?
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rm082e
Member
Totally depends:
If I use an emulator + ROM to play an out of print game that's not available on a digital store front, instead of going to eBay and buying the original hardware and game, no, I don't think that counts as piracy. I did this many years ago with a crappy old adventure game called The Adventures of Willie Beamish. It was a game I had on Sega CD when I was a kid and I wanted to see it again. I wasn't about to go by ancient hardware and a copy for big bugs just to scratch a curiosity itch.
But about a year ago my son wanted to see all the old Marvel vs. Capcom and Darkstalkers games after he got way into UMVC3. I would have had to spend over $100 to buy digital copies of those old games, and some of them weren't even available anywhere that I could find. We just downloaded some ROMs, played with them for one afternoon, and that was it. Was that piracy? I'd say it's harder to make the argument it's not given someone was still selling some of those games on a digital storefront. But do I care? Please...
I think in general, the older a piece of media is, the less it "matters" if you aren't paying for it. Most content loses value over time. The hot new movie this year will be a "free with ads" movie ten years from now on some service or website. If you're using emulators/pirate ecosystems to get access to specific pieces of old content that you want to revisit, I don't think you're hurting anyone.
If I use an emulator + ROM to play an out of print game that's not available on a digital store front, instead of going to eBay and buying the original hardware and game, no, I don't think that counts as piracy. I did this many years ago with a crappy old adventure game called The Adventures of Willie Beamish. It was a game I had on Sega CD when I was a kid and I wanted to see it again. I wasn't about to go by ancient hardware and a copy for big bugs just to scratch a curiosity itch.
But about a year ago my son wanted to see all the old Marvel vs. Capcom and Darkstalkers games after he got way into UMVC3. I would have had to spend over $100 to buy digital copies of those old games, and some of them weren't even available anywhere that I could find. We just downloaded some ROMs, played with them for one afternoon, and that was it. Was that piracy? I'd say it's harder to make the argument it's not given someone was still selling some of those games on a digital storefront. But do I care? Please...
I think in general, the older a piece of media is, the less it "matters" if you aren't paying for it. Most content loses value over time. The hot new movie this year will be a "free with ads" movie ten years from now on some service or website. If you're using emulators/pirate ecosystems to get access to specific pieces of old content that you want to revisit, I don't think you're hurting anyone.
bitbydeath
Member
Emulation itself isn't piracy.
Dumping games to ROM's however meets the definition of piracy.
"the unauthorized use or reproduction of another's work."
Dumping games to ROM's however meets the definition of piracy.
"the unauthorized use or reproduction of another's work."
Last Hearth
Member
Thats's like asking if using a copy machine is a violation of copyright.
Well, it all depends on how you're using it.
Well, it all depends on how you're using it.
hououinkyouma00
Member
No, emulation and piracy are not the same thing.
HOWEVER and it's a big however, the vast majority of emulation involves piracy and you can't really convince me otherwise. I believe that there are people out there that are ripping all of their cartridges and discs, and pulling bios off of their consoles but I'd say over 99% of the time people are just pulling roms/isos off of places like Vimm. I don't care if you own the discs/cartridges if you are downloading a rom/iso then it's piracy.
I actually posted a thread about emulation one time as I was trying to be more open to it and I actually appreciated the people that openly stated they used piracy because they were at least being honest and not trying to act like they were doing something they weren't.
That is why I totally get why Nintendo goes after this stuff because the vast majority IS piracy just like the vast majority of people buying those one cartridges for the Switch are using it for piracy purposes.
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Naz93
Neo Member
Your analogy is dumb. You didn't 'win' anything.
If knives had no restrictions, you could stroll through airport security or a busy street waving a butcher knife without a cop stopping you. Try that and tell me how it goes
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If my analogy is dumb then your comment is 10X dumber. Why would you need to go to airport or busy street to hurt anyone with knife? Lol, like you can't kill someone with a knife without seeking attention. Don't know how you equite hurting someone with a knife to mass murder, lol.
Naz93
Neo Member
I didn't say kill or hurt anyone
Hero_Select
Member
I don't understand this knife comparison.
Every single house in the word has knives - and a tiny percentage of them are used to hurt people. If 50 to 95 % of them were being used maliciously you would expect buying knives to have a major restriction on them.
That percentage is flipped for emulators. While yes legal what would you say the percentage is of people who are using emulators are also pirating games illegaly? Because I would comfortably say it's above 80.
Every single house in the word has knives - and a tiny percentage of them are used to hurt people. If 50 to 95 % of them were being used maliciously you would expect buying knives to have a major restriction on them.
That percentage is flipped for emulators. While yes legal what would you say the percentage is of people who are using emulators are also pirating games illegaly? Because I would comfortably say it's above 80.
Well, that's the reason. Anyone has acces to a knife, they can do "illegal" things with it. This doesn't mean we should ban knifes or that knifes are inherintly bad. This kind of logic applies to many things.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
That slogan unfortunately makes no sense.
You don't "own" your passwords and credentials either but I'm pretty sure if someone were to duplicate and spread them across the internet you wouldn't be happy.
It shouldn't be necessary to explain the concept of intellectual property in the digital age, but here we are. Again.
Naz93
Neo Member
This is your analogy, and you're still doubling down. Knives are regulated try waving a butcher knife in a busy city square or on a public bus and see how fast you're in cuffs or shot by a cop. (I'm not saying to go out and attack someone). Nowhere did I call for banning knives, guns, or emulators. I'm only pointing out that knives and guns are regulated so your claim that they aren't, and the analogy built on it, just doesn't hold up. If emulators were governed the same way only letting you run games you actually own there would be no issue. It's misuse that's policed, not the tool itself.
Yeah, well he's doubling down.
And you keep doubling down on silly replies. Like I already said, you can commit plenty of crime with knife without having to be brandishing it in public as in your example. Like dude, knifes are used for murder quite often worldwide, which proves they can be used for illegal means. It's an analogy, not a direct 1:1 comparison to emulation, lol. It's just to prove that many things that are perfectly legal can also be used for illegal means, but you brain seems to unable to comprehend that, lol.
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So you're saying if 80% of knifes were used to commit crime then they would suddenly become illegal and unattainable? Lol
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