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[Marty Chinn]

I'm not buying a Mac Mini, so I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. What I'm saying is that different products have different upsides and downsides, and this is true in every possible retail scenario and shouldn't surprise and offend you so much. Sticking with the analogy, you don't go into McDonald's and complain that a Big Mac doesn't have tomatoes, onions, jalapenos, every kind of cheese, a fried egg, bacon, lettuce, spinach, roast beef, and tarter sauce on it just because you think it's right to have options, you just get the thing that has what you want in it, and if nothing has everything on it, you get the closest you can.

Way to side step the simple question with a poor analogy at best....

This really isn't as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. As far as bringing this "having it external is certainly a solution, but it's an ugly and less convenient solution which goes against typically what Apple fans like about Apple" argument into it, either you're forgetting or don't know that Apple was one of if not the first company to drop the internal floppy drive too, and people complained just as loudly for no reason back then too about something that wasn't a big deal at a time and doesn't matter at all now, just like this.

No I remember, but as stated before it's not quite the same situation as back then as it is now. Do I think DVD drives will get phased out eventually? Sure. Do I think it's fine in the laptop arena, sure. On the desktop though, I think it's a bit premature though with an ugly solution. Discs are still useful even though they are less used than before and it's certainly understandable that someone would have a need for one and if someone has a need for one, why would you think it's better to have it external than internal if it is something you want?

Look, I won't argue if you have no use for discs. That's not the debate. I will argue if someone says they're useless at this point in time though. I'll also argue against the notion that somehow if someone wants a drive that it's somehow better to have it on the outside than inside. That's just silly.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Way to side step the simple question with a poor analogy at best....



No I remember, but as stated before it's not quite the same situation as back then as it is now. Do I think DVD drives will get phased out eventually? Sure. Do I think it's fine in the laptop arena, sure. On the desktop though, I think it's a bit premature though with an ugly solution. Discs are still useful even though they are less used than before and it's certainly understandable that someone would have a need for one and if someone has a need for one, why would you think it's better to have it external than internal if it is something you want?

Look, I won't argue if you have no use for discs. That's not the debate. I will argue if someone says they're useless at this point in time though. I'll also argue against the notion that somehow if someone wants a drive that it's somehow better to have it on the outside than inside. That's just silly.

I answered your question directly: it isn't about whether it's better, that's irrelevant. If you want an optical drive, you don't want a Mac Mini. Surely you can understand that.

You seem to think I'm defending a position one way or the other, but what I'm actually doing is pointing out, correctly, that your argument is completely irrelevant.

My analogy is spot on, every time you buy anything you're weighing the pros and cons of that thing versus competing products. You can sit around all day and say that this thing should have this thing but at the end of the day, it's not relevant and you're just talking fantasy.

 

[Tobor]

Gruber points out the author's great track record as a pundit:



http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/27/editorial-engadget-on-the-ipad/

Yeah, he's clueless. No foresight whatsoever. Murph, not Gruber. Lol.

 

[mrkgoo]

Of course there isn't a choice, but good god, are you honestly trying to say if someone wanted an optical drive in their Mac Mini, that somehow it's better outside than inside? Or that it's better to offer no option rather than two models so that you can choose? Having it external is certainly a solution, but it's an ugly and less convenient solution which goes against typically what Apple fans like about Apple. Just because there isn't a choice and you're forced to go with a less than ideal situation doesn't mean somehow that situation is all good and that it's perfect.

Waitaminute. So you don't like the external? Earlier on in the thread, I swear you were extolling the virtues of it being external, and gave me such a good argument, it convinced me that external was the preferential thing to do going forward.

My world has been turned upside down.

Edit: i'm not being silly either.

Here's the comment that swayed me:

I think the point is, say you have like 3 or 4 computers around the house. Only one of them should really need the optical drive while you can deal without on the rest. Best to pay for one optical drive than have them in all the computers.
.

I see now it wasn't referring to external specifically, but I still think it's great point.

It enlightened me - remove drives from ALL computers now that they're not as prevalent and AS useful as before, and just have a single external that shifts from computer to computer as you need it. I love that idea.

Of course, a few years back, it was much better when it was necessary for computers to have optical media to have drives more conveniently built in, but since the use case is increasingly fringe, why not make the hardware also.

 

[Prez]

There are still lots of people who buy CDs so this is stupid.

Why buy CDs you ask? 75% of all music I come around can be had cheaper on CD than the digital version. And I still prefer playing CDs. It allows me to focus on one album at a time and I have an awesome modded CD player.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I answered your question directly: it isn't about whether it's better, that's irrelevant. If you want an optical drive, you don't want a Mac Mini. Surely you can understand that.

You seem to think I'm defending a position one way or the other, but what I'm actually doing is pointing out, correctly, that your argument is completely irrelevant.

My analogy is spot on, every time you buy anything you're weighing the pros and cons of that thing versus competing products. You can sit around all day and say that this thing should have this thing but at the end of the day, it's not relevant and you're just talking fantasy.

I never understand this line of thinking. Just because it isn't an option doesn't mean there isn't a right to complain about something or that we have to like the situation. If everyone was simply complacent and didn't voice their issue, then companies would never learn from their consumers or change things based upon people's needs or wants. Plus, this is a discussion forum. Should the people not complain who bought the first iPhone at launch only to have a significant price drop a few months later? Clearly they were mad about the situation and Apple listened and responded. Cuz afterall they bought the phone, Apple had their money, there was nothing they could do.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I never understand this line of thinking. Just because it isn't an option doesn't mean there isn't a right to complain about something or that we have to like the situation. If everyone was simply complacent and didn't voice their issue, then companies would never learn from their consumers or change things based upon people's needs or wants. Plus, this is a discussion forum. Should the people not complain who bought the first iPhone at launch only to have a significant price drop a few months later? Clearly they were mad about the situation and Apple listened and responded. Cuz afterall they bought the phone, Apple had their money, there was nothing they could do.

Did you buy a Mac Mini and feel shorted by the exclusion of the optical drive?

 

[Marty Chinn]

Waitaminute. So you don't like the external? Earlier on in the thread, I swear you were extolling the virtues of it being external, and gave me such a good argument, it convinced me that external was the preferential thing to do going forward.

My world has been turned upside down.

Given a choice, I'd want internal over external in something like a desktop. Why have stuff hanging around when it could be in one nice package? Afterall, isn't that the beauty of the iMac?

What I said earlier was I don't believe every device needs to have an optical drive at this point in time. I think it's still relevent to have one somewhere but not everywhere. So I can see removing it from laptops, but I still like the option of making a choice to have one. I would most likely just use the one on the desktop as my needs wind down.

Forget Apple's bottomline, how does it benefit you as a consumer to not have the option to choose to have one internal or one not at all?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Given a choice, I'd want internal over external in something like a desktop. Why have stuff hanging around when it could be in one nice package? Afterall, isn't that the beauty of the iMac?

What I said earlier was I don't believe every device needs to have an optical drive at this point in time. I think it's still relevent to have one somewhere but not everywhere. So I can see removing it from laptops, but I still like the option of making a choice to have one. I would most likely just use the one on the desktop as my needs wind down.

Forget Apple's bottomline, how does it benefit you as a consumer to not have the option to choose to have one internal or one not at all?

Consumers don't have to buy Apple products.

For someone so obsessed with options, you seem to forget that people have them.

 

[rkn]

Given a choice, I'd want internal over external in something like a desktop.

Apple (wise or not) is moving the choice options to a)none or b)external, it's literally the only options you have as far as optical media. If it doesn't suit you, if you absolutely need in your soul to have the drive be internal, well there are a slew of manufacturers who aren't gambling on optical media being phased out any time soon.

Forget Apple's bottomline, how does it benefit you as a consumer to not have the option to choose to have one internal or one not at all?

Price (seemingly), form factor (probably), convenience (depends on how set up for cloud and dd you are). Transitions away from the old and norms aren't easy, as evidenced by this thread, I'm just glad some companies are willing to take the risk.

 

[mrkgoo]

Given a choice, I'd want internal over external in something like a desktop. Why have stuff hanging around when it could be in one nice package? Afterall, isn't that the beauty of the iMac?

What I said earlier was I don't believe every device needs to have an optical drive at this point in time. I think it's still relevent to have one somewhere but not everywhere. So I can see removing it from laptops, but I still like the option of making a choice to have one. I would most likely just use the one on the desktop as my needs wind down.

Forget Apple's bottomline, how does it benefit you as a consumer to not have the option to choose to have one internal or one not at all?

I added to my response above.

I agree with you mostly. But no-one is saying it's 'bad to have choice' (except me, sometimes, lol) - just that it's not as big of a deal as you seem to make out. When a choice ceases to exist within a model line, the decision just moves up a level to between model lines, consumers make a different choice and move on. The point is moot, because the choice to have an optical drive or not on a mini has NEVER been there. If it's all about choice, why were you not there arguing for the case about why you couldn't buy a mac mini WITHOUT an optical drive before two weeks ago?

Point is, we're not saying choice is BAD, it's just that the choice isn't there, people continue to live. And again, that's NOT saying you don't have a right to complain, You absolutely do. Complain ahead. We're here and listening.

I know this comes across as Apple-indoctrination, or just dealing with e crap Apple gives us, but I feel i'm just being realistic.



As for all-in ones, yes, it,s nice to have stuff rather than not IF that addition is useful. your mileage may vary, of course, because different people will have different needs. Example, it was nice to HAVE the express slot on my MBP. did I ever use it? No. So I won't miss it if Apple get rid of it (which they kind of have, I think).

I still use optical, but not ENOUGH to be inside my computer permanently. Also, there are loads of peripherals that I don't want IN my computer, but again mileage may vary. I understand that optical drives are reasonably small and insignificant compared to iMac housing.

 

[Raistlin]

I leave the high res audio for an enviroment suited for it.
I guess I can see how multichannel sound would be nice somtimes.

Yeah, it's more about the surround ... not the high resolution.

The issue is while DVD-A is possible to rip (kind of a pain), what mobile media players support multi-channel FLAC?

Moreover, SACD is unrippable. So if you have some non-hybrids (or would like surround) ... you're screwed.

There are still lots of people who buy CDs so this is stupid.

Why buy CDs you ask? 75% of all music I come around can be had cheaper on CD than the digital version. And I still prefer playing CDs. It allows me to focus on one album at a time and I have an awesome modded CD player.

Yeah, this is pretty much how I roll. If I want a certain percentage of the songs on an album, I buy the CD. If I've just received it in the mail and haven't had a chance to rip it, I'll pop it in the car while I'm driving. More often, it's a situation where I picked up a CD at an actual B&M* and want to listen to it before I've ripped it.

Beyond that, there are certainly times where someone is in my car and happens to bring a CD either to listen to or because I'm borrowing it.

Actually a random event happened literally yesterday. I was at my parents' house fixing their computer (lightning strike damaged Ethernet on the MoBo so I installed a PCI card), and my mother gave me a CD she bought at Borders on discount . Obviously I wanted to listen to it on the way home.




*I know ... it's shocking. I still purchase CD's from stores on occasion. At many stores, older CD's and new releases can have pretty competitive prices versus online. It's the stuff in the middle that tends to be overpriced.

 

[Raistlin]

If it's all about choice, why were you not there arguing for the case about why you couldn't buy a mac mini WITHOUT an optical drive before two weeks ago?

Actually you could get either due to the server line


On a serious note, I think the above is actually a pretty normal mentality. While most like choice, the lack of choice is typically going to sting more when it involves not including something versus including something.

Obviously inclusion can be taken to an extreme when expensive things are included that large numbers of people don't want ... but in the typical case, I think the above holds true.

 

[RDreamer]

I'd be kind of angry if when I finally upgrade my Macbook Pro there's no cd drive in there. I watch music dads and listen to cps in there all the time. I mean sure I could put it in my cd drive but I like to have my stuff scribbled AND listen to full quality music. And yes I could rip into flac or something, but that's kind of a pain in the ass to do. Just give me a cd drive...

 

[Jasoco]

Music dads and cps? Scribbled?

Just rip it and get it over with.

 

[Raistlin]

Music dads and cps? Scribbled?

Just rip it and get it over with.

Rip it with what?