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[Zaph]

Holy fuck, half of the money went to Yogscast guys just so their name could be used? Holy crap what greedy pos.

If this is true it meant Yogcast and Winterkewl entered into an agreement where they estimated a project of that scope could be completed for $125k (~£70k) - half of the initial goal.

That is knowingly misleading and bordering on reckless. I imagine there would be a good case here for a class action against both parties. Yes, the KS was launched by Winterkewl, but Yogcast knowingly entered into a financial agreement with them and licensed rights - at the very least without due diligence. They can't absolve themselves of the fallout.

I would love to this this go to court (regardless of outcome) just so developers get spooked enough to start putting realistic goals on KS projects (spoilers - 6 figure sums don't go far in games development) or clearly state they're using backer money as leverage to secure outside funding.

 

[Finalow]

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Oh boy, indeed. This is why I could never bring myself to Kickstart stuff; the crushing despair of throwing money away would be too much to bear.

I think you try to stick with reputable developers with a long history of games. I backed Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, Grim Dawn, Carmageddon, and Broken Age because I knew those guys were serious business and have put out some amazing titles in the past, and I wanted to support that. So far, no regrets as far as backing games. *knock on wood*

 

[Tripon]

The Yogcast are scam artists or just incredibly naive businessmen because they took half the kickstarter money as their share claiming it was a 'partnership'.

That's incredibly slanted towards the Yogcast, and doomed the game from any hope of completion status.

 

[stevil]

The Yogcast are scam artists or just incredibly naive businessmen because they took half the kickstarter money as their share claiming it was a 'partnership'.

That's incredibly slanted towards the Yogcast, and doomed the game from any hope of completion status.

I already read this several times in this thread but is there any hard evidence that they did in fact do this?

 

[Xater]

I think you try to stick with reputable developers with a long history of games. I backed Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, Grim Dawn, Carmageddon, and Broken Age because I knew those guys were serious business and have put out some amazing titles in the past, and I wanted to support that. So far, no regrets as far as backing games. *knock on wood*

I backed a lot of those as well and so far everything turned out fine. Wasteland 2 seems to be well on track for release soon which is great.

 

[Meier]

I've only ever backed one Kickstarter and it was definitely not a game. I paid $30 for a product I knew would come because it was an offshoot of a finalized one (A new version of Click & Grow). Hopefully this continues to wisen people up. Be smart with your money folks.

 

[pinkurocket]

So this thread is the first I have even heard of this game, I decided to watch to original Kickstarter video (can be found here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventures)

Seems hugely coincidental that they are essentially mocking how they are going to spend their money when they get it (on joffa cakes) and how they did save some, but spent it on crap.

Self-fulfilling prophecy... must of seemed pretty funny at the time. Not so funny now.

Seeing that video, I guess I understand why people funded money. It gives the appearance they already have a base game and they made it look like a minecraft clone so people could relate it to that game. However reading the text underneath it, that is just a ridiculous amount of fake promises.

 

[MaxiLive]

A lot of my friends wanted to back this when it was first announced but I knew it would be vapour ware from day 1, I didn't think it would go out as badly as it has but it had no chance in hell of coming close to the goals it wanted to achieve.

The scary thing about this is how did a small team of 6 spend half a million dollars on game development and achieved nothing. They probably didn't and the money went into buying offices for the Yogscast.

I suppose that is how kickstarters work though, if this was a company they would either be in massive debt repaying it customers or sold off to raise money to recover the costs. I'm sure the Yogscast team are worth well over $500k but I'm guessing as it's a kickstarter not much legal action can be done.

 

[tokkun]

Angel Investors are a thing. Kick starter is basically a way to do angel investing with the possibility of some physical reward.

Angel investors get equity. They don't just give companies money for nothing in return.

 

[LiK]

I backed a lot of those as well and so far everything turned out fine. Wasteland 2 seems to be well on track for release soon which is great.

Yea, they constantly update and give us previews. Really awesome Kickstarter updates.

 

[LurkerPrime]

That gif is amazing.

I think you try to stick with reputable developers with a long history of games. I backed Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, Grim Dawn, Carmageddon, and Broken Age because I knew those guys were serious business and have put out some amazing titles in the past, and I wanted to support that. So far, no regrets as far as backing games. *knock on wood*

That's the sort of attitude that lead to this Yogsventure to begin with. The developers partnered with the Yogscast (so they would lend their name to the project) for "only" half of the money raised. It was purely a PR move to gain more support for the Kickstarter - and it worked, as they more than doubled their ask. The fact that it was a risky thing to support was trumped by the big name attached to it; every fan would go "I trust the Yogscast" and pledge their support, regardless of the pie-in-the-sky goals of the sinister six development team.

Big names mean big results... But at least this has been a Yogsventure we'll never forget.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Angel investors get equity. They don't just give companies money for nothing in return.

To be fair, equity in a project that fails and is folded is worth nothing. Like, in some alternate reality where backers owned half this company, they'd own half of nothing. So the appropriate time to bring up the equity debate is actually not in the context of a failed project, but in the context of a successful one.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Anyone giving money to kickstarter is nuts imo.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

I guess being in Sonic All Stars just wasn't good enough for them.

 

[Tripon]

To be fair, equity in a project that fails and is folded is worth nothing. Like, in some alternate reality where backers owned half this company, they'd own half of nothing. So the appropriate time to bring up the equity debate is actually not in the context of a failed project, but in the context of a successful one.

Angel Investors are also well more equipped to verify the status of a startup company. Kickstarter participates have no idea if a company proposing a KS is on the verge of bankruptcy or is financially doing well and can absorb hidden costs.

 

[Uno Venova]

Give hundreds and thousands of dollars to strangers on a concept brehs.

 

[mechphree]

And this is my problem with kickstarter, when a game doesn't get completed. They don't have to issue out refunds either

 

[Fantastapotamus]

What the fuck, who would pledge for that? This is by far the worst pitch video on kickstarter I have ever seen. Holy shit, is this a joke?

Edit: Oh, it's some Youtube guys? Well, alright then. I guess that's why I only pledge when I TRUST the developers, not when I like some videos they made.

 

[Labadal]

Anyone giving money to kickstarter is nuts imo.

Divinity: Original Sin wants a word with you.

Be careful with what projects you back.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Also.. what the hell is Yogscast

minecraft thing, i believe

 

[Tripon]

minecraft thing, i believe

Were they the guys who claimed that minecraft's success was because of them?

 

[oti]

Official NeoGAF game.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

yogscast is the same youtube channel that just announced yogsdiscovery

ie they cover your game on youtube, then they get a percentage of their sales when the game starts selling more

smh

Uhm, what? This might be even worse. Why would I watch this, might as well ask the developer if their game is good.

How much do I have to pledge to have a dinner with Tim Schafer?

 

[Aaron]

And this is my problem with kickstarter, when a game doesn't get completed. They don't have to issue out refunds either

Like every other financial transaction, you'll be 90% okay as long as you don't give your money to idiots. These people went out of their way to make it clear they are idiots. The lesson here shouldn't be trust no one, but to trust those who deserve it. An experienced developer like Double Fine isn't going to stiff backers. Their reputation is too valuable. The rep of youtube personalities is much less so.

 

[Acosta]

Divinity had already a large budget before the Kickstarter campaign.

Most of the successful projects are using Kickstarter as weird freemoney/pre-order/advertising platform.
Not that it wrong if they don't scum poeple with it but it's not that most of the projects wouldn't exist without Kickstarter.

"helped immensely by it like Divinity"

Divinity wouldn't be half the game it is without that money. It would be like the rest of Larian games, a flawed gem.

I disagree with your second statement. How could Obsidan make something like Pillars without that money?

Shadowrun, Valdis, Volgarr, The Banner Saga... all great games, none would exist without crowdfunding.

 

[mclem]

The Yogcast are scam artists or just incredibly naive businessmen because they took half the kickstarter money as their share claiming it was a 'partnership'.

That's incredibly slanted towards the Yogcast, and doomed the game from any hope of completion status.

I have to say that there's one important component here that I *do* think is something that could and ought to be ironed out (Maybe the 'risks' section adequately covers it? Yogventures predates that being a requirement): If the 'half the funding went to Yogcast' is true, that's a *significant* warning sign that the project was not viable. The project wasn't realistic at $250k, but at $125k, that's absolutely ludicrous. Trouble is, the backer really should have that information to work with.

Let's take this example to a ludicrous extreme. I ask for $1.6M to make an officially-licensed sequel to Castle of Illusion, having secured the rights from Disney to do so. $1.6M is *ample* money to make a project of that scale, so I'm easily asking for sufficient money to make that project. But after it gets funded, I reveal that $1.5M of that was actually for the licensing, and I was always planning to make the project for an unrealistic $100k. Had the backers known that I was only asking for $100k for development, that might have cast the project into a different, more suspect light; very useful information that should not be withheld from the backers.

I'm not arguing that that was a problem here - the $250k was clearly unrealistic independent of the fact that it was further reduced - but it's an example of how this KS was somewhat misleading.

So, should a budgetary breakdown be a requirement? I would be inclined to say no by default, but I would still strongly recommend that people presenting projects do present a breakdown of the budget at some point and that pledgers exercise extra caution if that information is not forthcoming.

 

[AppleMIX]

Anyone giving money to kickstarter is nuts imo.

Honestly Kickstarter/crowd funding has produced a lot of good games.

Planetary Annihilation
Broken Age
Banner Saga
Wasteland 2
Divinity: Original Sin
Shovel Knight
Risk of Rain
Volgarr the Viking
Shadowrun Returns
Kentucky Route Zero
Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams
Chivalry: Medieval Warfare
FTL

Plus many others.

I wouldn't be so down on them because of some bad apples.

 

[system11]

Kickstarter is a gamble, like any investment. You have to approach it with a 'I could lose this money' mindset.

I haven't lost any yet, although most hit delays. I've spent in the region of £2k there over the past couple of years.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Divinity: Original Sin wants a word with you.

Be careful with what projects you back.

Nah, I'll just buy the finished project when it releases IF it looks like it's worthy of a purchase. I work too hard for my money to gamble it away on someone maybe following through on a making something I may or may not like.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Angel Investors are also well more equipped to verify the status of a startup company. Kickstarter participates have no idea if a company proposing a KS is on the verge of bankruptcy or is financially doing well and can absorb hidden costs.

I think KS participants are in an extremely good position to verify the status of a startup company, they just choose not to. The parallel here isn't an angel investor doing due diligence versus a random KS backer, the parallel here is to imagine an angel investor who watches a 5 minute pitch video and turns over their money without asking for due dilligence to be done. If we want to treat KS backers as angel investors, that implies a massively higher level of scrutiny on the part of the backer--a level of scrutiny which itself would have solved the problem with this project, as my post on the previous page which applies a five second level of questioning to the parameters of the project will attest to.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Honestly Kickstarter/crowd funding has produced a lot of good games.

Plus many others.

I wouldn't be so down on them because of some bad apples.

Also, those bad apples are usually really easy to spot. Like seriously, just LOOK at that pitch video. How can people be surprised that this blew up?

 

[Archaix]

I saw it mentioned once, but it bears repeating: Yogscast are not only incredibly popular, but are also at the front of a new "partnership" with developers where they cover games (in a totally impartial way not related to their direct profit at all!) in exchange for a percentage of increased games sales in the time following the videos.


They seem real trustworthy though, I'm sure there will be nothing to be concerned about there.

 

[patapuf]

And this is my problem with kickstarter, when a game doesn't get completed. They don't have to issue out refunds either

They actually have to. But often they can't.

And if you suspect otherwise you have to sue. Which for a 30 or 60$ pledge is usually not worth it.

 

[Zafir]

Oh boy, indeed. This is why I could never bring myself to Kickstart stuff; the crushing despair of throwing money away would be too much to bear. And yes, I know there are many very worthy, very worthwhile Kickstarters to take part in, but they're just not for me because of the general risk involved.


Yogventures spectacularly exploded into a volatile substance that soaked all nearby Kickstarter projects.

Don't do anything crazy, nearby Kickstarter projects... or you may explode in a similar fashion.

Well, the risk can be minimised if you do a bit of research. If they have a prototype, or past experience, and the project seems viable for their budget then it's less likely to fail. The issue here is, people backed purely on the Yogscast name and the project wasn't even by them. It was by a small development company trying to make something larger than they had the money, resources or manpower for, using their name.

I've backed quite a lot of kickstarters, 35 in total and none of them have failed. The oldest 10 have delivered, and a few of the others have too, the rest have been giving updates. Though I don't really give that much to KS projects, so even if something did fail, I'm not going to cry that much about losing say $20.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I saw it mentioned once, but it bears repeating: Yogscast are not only incredibly popular, but are also at the front of a new "partnership" with developers where they cover games (in a totally impartial way not related to their direct profit at all!) in exchange for a percentage of increased games sales in the time following the videos.


They seem real trustworthy though, I'm sure there will be nothing to be concerned about there.

I mean they are giving away 10$ keys, even though they are under no obligation to do so.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I have to say that there's one important component here that I *do* think is something that could and ought to be ironed out (Maybe the 'risks' section adequately covers it? Yogventures predates that being a requirement): If the 'half the funding went to Yogcast' is true, that's a *significant* warning sign that the project was not viable. The project wasn't realistic at $250k, but at $125k, that's absolutely ludicrous. Trouble is, the backer really should have that information to work with.

Let's take this example to a ludicrous extreme. I ask for $1.6M to make an officially-licensed sequel to Castle of Illusion, having secured the rights from Disney to do so. $1.6M is *ample* money to make a project of that scale, so I'm easily asking for sufficient money to make that project. But after it gets funded, I reveal that $1.5M of that was actually for the licensing, and I was always planning to make the project for an unrealistic $100k. Had the backers known that I was only asking for $100k for development, that might have cast the project into a different, more suspect light; very useful information that should not be withheld from the backers.

I'm not arguing that that was a problem here - the $250k was clearly unrealistic independent of the fact that it was further reduced - but it's an example of how this KS was somewhat misleading.

So, should a budgetary breakdown be a requirement? I would be inclined to say no by default, but I would still strongly recommend that people presenting projects do present a breakdown of the budget at some point and that pledgers exercise extra caution if that information is not forthcoming.

My sense would be that while a budgetary breakdown can't plausibly be given at the time, a good rule of thumb is to look at the number of people they purport to have on their team, the amount of months they claim development will take, and the amount of money they're asking for (minus costs of physical reward fulfillment, taxes, KS fees, etc.) And if the napkin math doesn't work out, then don't pledge. The napkin math would not work out in the case of this game, not at all.

I mean, the default should be "I will not pledge". People should be opting in on a very choosy, selective basis. If there are any red flags at all, don't let the people assuage you or smooth it over with a message DURING the Kickstarter, just sit it out. If the product ends up releasing, you can try it then. If the product doesn't get funded, well, you're not to blame--the people pitching the product are for not doing a better pitch.

In the case of the reductio ad absurdum licensing situation, I don't think backers would be hurt by just assuming the license is a major component of the money asked for and then proceed from there by doing the above calculations.

I don't want to take away from the liability of the people selling snake oil. Those people suck, and even if they're coming from ignorance rather than malice, they hurt others and they owe us more responsibility than that. But I'm highly skeptical of outraged and baffled claims by backers who clearly didn't put even 5 seconds of thought into their pledge because they were so wowed by something conceptually or by someone's name that they shut down their mental faculties.

 

[Krejlooc]

Yeah, I feel bad for anyone who invested in a Youtube group who obviously know little to nothing about game development. I'm not sure if anyone has seen screens or videos of their game but it looked horrendous.

What are you talking about? That's a fine looking dreamcast game.

 

[Aaron]

Hopefully, this will be a learning experience of this and the upcoming Homestuck failure. Checking over my own kickstarters, there a few shaky ones in there, but no outright failures yet.

 

[redhood56]

I would be incredibly surprised if he says anything at all.

When they showed the game 2 E3's ago, TB played the alpha build and seemed really unimpressed. He said that he wasn't sure if he was going to do a video on it. But he did comment on the yogdiscovery bullshit.

 

[michaelius]

What a disaster. I feel bad for the backers.

Why ? Do we have to think for everyone ?

 

[BronsonLee]

Why ? Do we have to think for everyone ?

General sympathy is not a bad thing.

 

[RiggyRob]

Honestly Kickstarter/crowd funding has produced a lot of good games.

Planetary Annihilation
Broken Age
Banner Saga
Wasteland 2
Divinity: Original Sin
Shovel Knight
Risk of Rain
Volgarr the Viking
Shadowrun Returns
Kentucky Route Zero
Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams
Chivalry: Medieval Warfare
FTL

Plus many others.

I wouldn't be so down on them because of some bad apples.

Broken Age and Kentucky Route Zero are still unfinished right now though. Can't disagree with the rest, it links back to my point earlier - because the high profile successes outweigh the high profile failures, Kickstarter is an overall positive to game developers.

When they showed the game 2 E3's ago, TB played the alpha build and seemed really unimpressed. He said that he wasn't sure if he was going to do a video on it. But he did comment on the yogdiscovery bullshit.

You got any quotes as to what he said?

 

[crazyrabbits]

The first thing I thought of reading this topic was a quote from Harlan Ellison (discussing a company's unwillingness to pay him for an appearance/participation in a project) - "If you're going to sell your soul, do it at the highest rates".

Considering the willingness of people who donate to Kickstarters from notable personalities, it sounds like their eyes were bigger than their stomachs and they only went halfway in. No management expertise on game development, a team with next-to-no definable credentials and a pitifully low amount for a complex and time-consuming project with open-world sensibilities. Of course it was going to fail.

 

[EmiPrime]

I used to watch Yogscast back when they were doing WoW Cataclysm beta videos. Since then it seems they've gotten too big too fast and developed really horrible attitudes and become increasingly narcissistic when they used to be quite humble and self-effacing. That statement is so arrogant and so lacking in remorse it's disgraceful.

 

[Mudcrab]

Anyone giving money to kickstarter is nuts imo.

Anyone who dismisses all kickstarter projects because of Yogscast is nuts, imo.

 

[Klyka]

I used to watch Yogscast back when they were doing WoW Cataclysm beta videos. Since then it seems they've gotten too big too fast and developed really horrible attitudes and become increasingly narcissistic when they used to be quite humble and self-effacing. That statement is so arrogant and so lacking in remorse it's disgraceful.

Having millions of people following you and making tons of money while everyone tells you how amazing you are can do that to people.

 

[link4117]

Hard to say - I don't know what TotalBiscuit's track record of commenting on affairs that don't concern him personally or his work such as reviews or YouTube videos. Needless to say, I predict he's going to keep schtum about this, unless someone wants to go on his Twitter to see what (if any) reaction he has to it.

I'm pretty sure he made a video or podcast about the discovery thing being a bad idea and bad for everyone but the youtube personality. If I remember right, he pointed out flaws with the system and some other stuff.

Edit: https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/yogola-nope-thats-the-cleverest-title-i-can-come-up-with

 

[EmiPrime]

Having millions of people following you and making tons of money while everyone tells you how amazing you are can do that to people.

Indeed.

Sad though. :/

 

[Damaniel]

I saw it mentioned once, but it bears repeating: Yogscast are not only incredibly popular, but are also at the front of a new "partnership" with developers where they cover games (in a totally impartial way not related to their direct profit at all!) in exchange for a percentage of increased games sales in the time following the videos.


They seem real trustworthy though, I'm sure there will be nothing to be concerned about there.

Yep, payola is alive and well; now it's just practiced by let's players instead of (well, in addition to) the music industry. I won't watch a Youtuber that tries to strong arm developers into these unfair 'pay to play' tactics, and neither should anyone else.

Hopefully the devs of this game will make things right with their Kickstarter backers, though there's very little legal obligation to do so.