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[andythinkpad]

I think some people need to face the fact that every country is a little bit racist, or various degree.

 

[digdug2k]

You're all for discourse except from the people this directly effects. They have no choice in this matter, thats the problem.

Remove their choice, all in the name of freedom, how wonderful.

There are lots of women who choose to wear these out there. They believe in their religion strongly. Their religion tells them they need to keep their faces covered in public. They wear them out with their husbands/boyfriends/kids. They have fun. They're happy.

 

[Deepwater]

People do this all the time, if someone is too close to a situation to objectively view it then it is wise for someone else to give an opinion on it.

fucking disgusting. yall are so entitled to being the objective POV about lived experiences you don't have to live or experience. Maybe take a backseat and empower the people who are directly affected by it instead of claiming to know what's best for people who you know nothing about

 

[trineo_feo]

I can't imagine how full of yourself you have to be to tell someone that they don't know what's best for them

Drive by post that doesn't make any sense.

It's not me, it's us. Us. European people, through our Courts and Assemblies. We are the ones who decide.

And we do this as a society all the time. Not just in Europe. Why do you think we have laws? They are basically pages of text stating what we think is best for people. Even if you think you kid is better off not going to school, we, the society, are not going to allow it. Or if you think your wife shouldn't be allowed to drive. Or if you think your kid shouldn't be vaccinated. Or if you think you don't need to wear a seatbelt. And so on..

This is how we function as a society, dude.

 

[wartama]

You'll probably find most of us have had to follow clothing guidelines for most of our lives already. Also, choice. Isn't that the operative word here? Your choice. Are we talking about the OP's full-face veil here?

I don't get to choose what I wear at work entirely, it has to conform to a standard and because of my choice to get a tattoo I must always wear a full-sleeve'd shirt, again I'm okay with that because I knew this would be a thing getting it.

Wanting to actually cover your face and carry on as is, if that's what we are talking about where I live is pretty much a no-no; more in some places than others. I feel amongst accepting other peoples beliefs and culture from another place is a thing we should all aspire to do but some things might be against some of our own norms? Is that the right word?

I want safety and financial stability. That's all I ask. To go to local market and to the GP without expecting that I would be stopped and fined/jailed because wearing a niqab. I don't have the luxury to work in countries where the niqab is enforced. My mother was imprisoned in a muslim country BECAUSE she dared to wear the hijab. In the Scandinavian country where I was born, I cannot even work and study with a normal Abaya and hijab, let alone a niqab. NOWHERE in the world can we be women, muslim and black and have a stable and safe lifestyle where I can work and go to uni and hospital and no be treated like dirt. And the Human Right court of all places should not have upheld a law that further restricts our rights.

Here's the thing: with this ban upheld, soon when other European countries follow suit, there would be nowhere where I can live as a muslim, black and queer woman. If I want to live like a normal human being, I would need to shed and hide one of these identities (which I'm actually kinda doing right now, since I'm still not fully out as a queer).
And the Human Right's court would be helping shaping that future. The Human. Rights. Court.

That's it, pack it up folks. Human Rights™ and Freedom* was a lie. I mean, what is the difference between Saudi Arabia enforcing a dress code and Belgium and France banning a dress code? Is it a matter of perspective, that "when they ain't doing it like us they're bad, when we do it it's good"? I mean, you could argue that not wearing the hijab in Saudi Arabia is going against social norms. Going against norms should never be the basis for criminalizing a dress code.

 

[Deepwater]

Drive by post that doesn't make any sense.

It's not me, it's us. Us. European people, through our Courts and Assemblies. We are the ones who decide.

And we do this as a society all the time. Not just in Europe. Why do you think we have laws? They are basically pages stating what we think is best for people. Even if you think you kid is better off not going to school, we, the society, are not going to allow it. Or if you think your wife shouldn't be allowed to drive. Or if you think your kid shouldn't be vaccinated. Or if you think you don't need to wear a seatbelt. And so on..

This is how we function as a society, dude.

don't wax poetic about laws about cultural pieces of clothing to wearing a god damned seatbelt

 

[cwmartin]

There are lots of women who choose to wear these out there. They believe in their religion strongly. Their religion tells them they need to keep their faces covered in public. They wear them out with their husbands/boyfriends/kids. They have fun. They're happy.

This makes Europeans uncomfortable, so they banned them. They are also proud of this.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I think you're being very naive believing that women can always simply choose not to abide by these customs, much like women don't choose to have their generals mutilated as is the custom in certain areas of the world.

Right. If a person is raised in a religious family, its hard to break away from something they were influenced by their whole lives.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Because thw reality is women who were forced to wear a Niqab had very little freedom to begin with. Have you heard of battered wife syndrome? The point being that even if they could contact help, chances are they wouldnt. And that is something that cant be easily solved. That is something that even plagues western society- despite laws against harming others, its something that is hard to stop.

Right, so now those women continue to be in an abusive relationship except now they can't even leave the house.

Success!

As for those who wear it with a choice in the matter..personally I cant see what hoops theyve jumped through to justify wearing a garment meant to oppress.

Talk to someone wearing a niqab and ask them?

Look through this thread and there are people who have talked about reasons why women choose to wear a niqab.

You can't see the reasoning because you have no interest in looking for them.

 

[Thornton Reed]

I think some people need to face the fact that every country is a little bit racist, or various degree.

how is the ban racist?

 

[DR2K]

I think ultimately women should have a choice, unfortunately they weren't given a choice when the Niqab was forced upon them due to a malicious interpretation of their religion. So I can forgive this ruling on those merits.

 

[sechsterangriff]

don't wax poetic about laws about cultural pieces of clothing to wearing a god damned seatbelt

You're the one doing it right there. The examples he gave were about education and civil rights for women.

 

[Miles X]

The article says that one of the women involved with this case has been staying home.

I mean, domestic abuse. Why people roll over and let this happen I don't know ..

 

[Muffin1611]

how is the ban racist?

Is this another one of these "Muslims aren't a race" arguments I hear so much about?

Semantics.

 

[cwmartin]

how is the ban racist?

How are voting identification and fraud laws racist? The same way this ban is.

 

[Cyframe]

Maybe phrasing this simply would work. How does this ban help Muslim women?

 

[kruis]

There are lots of women who choose to wear these out there. They believe in their religion strongly. Their religion tells them they need to keep their faces covered in public. They wear them out with their husbands/boyfriends/kids. They have fun. They're happy.

It's a horrible thing to teach women to be ashamed of who they are and find joy in misogyny. This is religous brainwashing of the worst kind

 

[Liha]

Right. If a person is raised in a religious family, its hard to break away from something they were influenced by their whole lives.

It's also likely that family members will kill here in order to defend the family's honor.

 

[TeddyBoy]

fucking disgusting. yall are so entitled to being the objective POV about lived experiences you don't have to live or experience. Maybe take a backseat and empower the people who are directly affected by it instead of claiming to know what's best for people who you know nothing about

I'd happily empower the women who are more oppressed by this but as has been pointed out in this thread, women who need this assistance are unlikely to go and use it.

And no, I don't claim to know about the lives of everyone who will be affected by this. I am merely giving my opinion on whether I agree or disagree with this ruling.

 

[d9b]

Every society has laws restricting what people can do. If you want to make this argument you can only come to the conclusion that there are no free societies.

Fuck society that will bring laws that decide what people can or can't wear.

 

[Horp]

Why does the niqab wearing population of Europe have no voice in this matter? That's my concern. You are misunderstanding my position that the niqab has not been a traditional tool of oppression, and patriarchal control, that is not up for debate.

Of course their opinion matters. But, excuse my tacky and kind of distasteful comparison here, you dont ask alcoholics whether they should continue drinking or not.
What I'm saying is that many people have just accepted that the tradition is what it is, or even accepted the reasons behind it (which is even worse). Then, it's just natural human behaviour to find a reasoning that validates your life choices.
Thus we can't -only- listen to them, but also figure out what kind of society we all want to have. We dont want the caste system, we dont want to denounce women that has had sex before marriage (not even if they themselves feel guilty), and we dont want women to cover their faces with something that is an token for opression (not comparable with ski masks, lol).

 

[Muffin1611]

How are voting identification and fraud laws racist? The same way this ban is.

Oh sure, because wearing a veil in public normal life is completely the same as when I do it when I go to make a photo that has explicitly the purpose to identify myself.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Is this another one of these Muslims aren't a race arguments I hear so much about?

But the subset of Muslim people wearing Niqab is really low. As a Turk, I am also uncomfortable by niqab and burqa when I came across them in Istanbul.

It's more like forbidding procession of saint Nicolas du chardonnais or westboro baptist church symbols.

 

[daxy]

This rule was never meant to please everybody or be a conduit for freedom among Muslim women.

If you read the case, the Belgian state clearly says that it finds facial coverage counterproductive to societal and interpersonal interaction and communication, which is deemed necessary for the functioning of democratic society. The ECHR also simply says that it finds that the rule is appropriate for what it means to achieve and it's within the powers of the state to make such a rule with the framework of the human rights agreements it upholds. The Court is not casting any normative statements about what people here think is a rule to 'free' 'oppressed' women.

I've posted there relevant quote on the first page.

 

[Muffin1611]

But the subset of Muslim people wearing Niqab is really low. As a Turk, I am also uncomfortable by niqab and burqa when I came across them in Istanbul.

It's more like forbidding procession of saint Nicolas du chardonnais or westboro baptist church symbols.

Not sure why it should be okay making the situation for a group worse because they're small.

 

[jugo]

Fuck society that will bring laws that decide what people can or can't wear.

Most of society already does that.

 

[wartama]

Question. Is there a reason why only one gender wear it?

Because men and women have different dress codes?

Yep, what you see most muslim men wearing nowadays actually goes against the Islamic dress code as specified in Quraan/Hadiths. They cannot wear certain colours (pure red and yellow), their trousers should not be under the ankles. The beard should not be trimmed. If they wear trousers, they shouldn't be tight-fitting, so jeans are out. There are a lot of restrictions for men if you want to follow the letters. Few muslim men adhere to these specifications, but the majority don't because no one polices men wherever they are. Few muslim women adhere to the rigid specifications nowadays, but you know how the debate goes. Free them, them damn womens don't know what's good for them.

The hypocrisy goes in muslim and non-muslim societies.

 

[Miles X]

Is this another one of these "Muslims aren't a race" arguments I hear so much about?

Semantics.

It's not about muslims, it just affects them.

. It prohibits appearing in public "with a face masked or hidden, in whole or in part, in such a way as to be unidentifiable".

And too fucking right, shouldn't be allowed in a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet, a veil or a donkey mascot costume ...

 

[guggnichso]

What's the legal distance to bike to not be suspicious?

How cold is cold enough for ski masks or scarfs over face to not be suspicious?

No Street performers with costumes either then?

Would you just please read the article in the OP or spend literally 2min to google the law we talk about? I mean, of course, you can just not do it, but that’s really really lame.

 

[T.O.P]

Tough shit. This is Europe, not Pakistan.

Follow the law.

Both of these

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Right, so now those women continue to be in an abusive relationship except now they can't even leave the house.

Success!

Battered wife syndrome. Sometimes abused people dont look for help. And its just something deeply ingrained. Look it up.

Talk to someone wearing a niqab and ask them?

Look through this thread and there are people who have talked about reasons why women choose to wear a niqab.

You can't see the reasoning because you have no interest in looking for them.

Ive heard the reasons. Feeling closer to god. How they show their piety. Whichever reasons they have.

The issue remains though that Niqabs are oppressive. And well, people should stop giving it the power it has.

 

[cwmartin]

Oh sure, because wearing a veil in public normal life is completely the same as when I do it when I go to make a photo that has explicitly the purpose to identify myself.

Eh, you misunderstood what I said. The laws are both equally racist because they explicitly and overwhelmingly affect one group over another. He asked why the law was racist, I'm using a comparable United States law that isn't written to be racist, but is actioned to be.

I'm not making an identification merits argument.

 

[Muffin1611]

It's not about muslims, it just affects them.


And too fucking right, shouldn't be allowed in a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet, a veil or a donkey mascot costume ...

Pretty sure you could wear that stuff while shopping etc. and still take it off when you specifically need to identify yourself, say, I dunno, at a bank?

Eh, you misunderstood what I said. The laws are both equally racist because they explicitly and overwhelmingly affect one group over another. He asked why the law was racist, I'm using a comparable United States law that isn't written to be racist, but is actioned to be.

I'm not making an identification merits argument.

Oh, gotcha, sorry then. Second language and all :S

 

[Thornton Reed]

Is this another one of these "Muslims aren't a race" arguments I hear so much about?

Semantics.

Saying Islam needs to adapt or modernise is not racist.

Fuck society that will bring laws that decide what people can or can't wear.

so basically fuck 99% of society.

 

[Muffin1611]

Saying Islam needs to adapt or modernise is not racist.

No it isn't. You're right.

But that's also not what we are arguing about here, really.

We're arguing that this won't help modernise Islam and further punish victims of people who use religion to oppress them.

 

[cwmartin]

Oh, gotcha, sorry then. Second language and all :S

No worries friend!

 

[Liha]

Fuck society that will bring laws that decide what people can or can't wear.

Do you also support something like:

I don't want these brown people and LGBT animals in my restaurant. I'm the owner and I can do whatever I want. I will put a "no negros and LGBT animals" sign in front of my business like in the good old 20's

 

[jett]

It's a horrible thing to teach women to be ashamed of who they are and find joy in misogyny. This is religous brainwashing of the worst kind

Indeed. That kind of "logic" is just abhorrent.

 

[CortexVortex]

Good, this will be for the better in the long term.

 

[d9b]

Do you also support something like:

I don't want these brown people and LGBT animals in my restaurant. I'm the owner and I can do whatever I want. I will put a "no negros and LGBT animals" sign in front of my business like in the good old 20's

You what now?

 

[Thornton Reed]

No it isn't. You're right.

But that's also not what we are arguing about here, really.

to quote you, semantics

 

[Frost_Ace]

Fuck society that will bring laws that decide what people can or can't wear.

should people be able to go around naked? Serious question, not a provocation, I'm questioning it myself.

 

[Muffin1611]

to quote you, semantics

Nah.

Btw, more sources on why the ban is awful: https://www.thelocal.fr/20151012/france-burqa-ban-five-years-on-we-create-a-monster

As mentioned in the article, the law is mostly used to pander to some racists. That's why the "is it racist" argument is semantics.

 

[sechsterangriff]

The husband might disagree.

Then that's domestic abuse and it already is a public crime in many countries. This type of thing should not be tolerated in any circumstance.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I mean, this is a small price to pay for security and equality. I'm ok with mascot suits being banned in public spaces. Maybe let someone wear it if it's their job or at a convention, but there is no right to walk around disguised in a free society. It's just not part of free societies

People have interesting definitions of "free societies" in this thread.

 

[Muffin1611]

Then that's domestic abuse and it already is a public crime in many countries. This type of thing should not be tolerated in any circumstance.

No shit, but you can't count on every case being discovered. This law will make it even harder for victims, since they won't go out anymore.

 

[trineo_feo]

Fuck society that will bring laws that decide what people can or can't wear.

So you can go naked around your city? Are you sure there is somewhere in the world with NO regulations regarding clothes?

More to the point: we are not regulating what people can wear. We have decided it is an oppresive symbol, and we are not going to allow women being oppressed in our streets. Even if they think they are not being oppressed.

Again, those are our values as a society, and they are above any kind religious values. If your religion doesn't fit our values, then you have to adapt, not us.

 

[Frost_Ace]

People have interesting definitions of "free societies" in this thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws

Most countrie have some kind of ant mask laws

 

[Fantastapotamus]

People have interesting definitions of "free societies" in this thread.

What is your definition of "free society"?

Btw I think free society is a pretty dumb phrase.

 

[Muffin1611]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws

Most countrie have some kind of ant mask laws

And? Doesn't mean I agree with it. Has potential to be abused. Even if it isn't, many of them have exceptions or are not clearly defining was "masked" means, leaving it to judgement of the police officer.