There are always some restrictions imposed by governments and there are reasons to be suspicious of the timing and reasons for the ruling (i.e. How many people wear this, the value of doing it, was it political because of how unpopular Islam and Muslims are these days, etc), but for me I am too used to interacting with people by at least seeing their face to see a lot of value in the niqab.
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European Court of Human Rights: Ban on Muslim full-face veil legal
- Thread starter Occam
- Start date
crooked spin
Member
Indeed. Defending conservative religious practices is one of the weirder turns GAF has taken in recent years.
Kralamoonard
Member
See my post above. This isn't about objective religious piety but rather personal preference and a personal journey. Religiously it isn't even obligatory or necessarily a marking of piety. After all it's all about intention, but I digress.
Muffin1611
Banned
The complete opposite. Providing better incentives to leave oppressive relationships is the exact opposite of short-sighted. In the long-term, they would either abolish the niqab themselves or claim it for themselves, just how other oppressive things have been claimed for them by the oppressed.
Banning it is extremely short-sighted and just erases the problem from the public view.
And shit like this is apparently allowed to be said here?
I know there are different ways. I'm just asking you why only women choose this particular way of dressing if it's an option available to everyone? Statistically, we would have a group of men wearing the same thing.
Why are you assuming there is no education on the subject being done in Belgium or Europe in general?
Your best strategy to do that is through education, not banning clothes.
RustyNails
Member
TatteredHat
Member
Good, I don't approve of full-face covering garments being allowed in public.
Muffin1611
Banned
Why are you assuming that putting more money into that education and help isn't going to help, but this stopgap measure is?
This is just like outlawing prostitution.
And what happens if someone decides to break the law? If this is truly about fighting systemic oppression, are you going to arrest the woman or the patriarch?
What about this one?
Yup, I can see some of the women's faces in that pic clearly enough to recognize them if I knew them.
RustyNails
Member
So technically what you're saying is if Muslim women covered their faces like the women above, you wont have a problem with it?
Subpar Scrub
Banned
What about this one?
Personally I have an issue with basically any facial covering that fully covers the face in a public scenario for no good reason. One at the front of the line is fine.
I must have missed the post where he said further funding education doesn't help :S quote it for me?
Miles Quaritch
Member
And ignoring the women who now feel they have less freedom makes you a better feminist than the people you were calling out in your initial post?
You have no right to call anyone out.
I'm not. Money is being put into education, and it helps. So does this law.
Yeah pretty much, the reason is for identification. If I can identify them without removing the veil, even if I have to get up close and talk, that's fine in my book.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I'm happy to be proven wrong on this.
Can you link to some programs that are currently running to provide education on the subject?
timetokill
Banned
I refuse to believe you don't see the irony in this.
Thornton Reed
Member
there is something seriously messed up in the religion/community if the alternative to the ban is not leaving the house?
I hope you don't call yourself a feminist while talking about the decisions muslim women make for themselves regarding their religious identity and expression without knowing and speaking to one yourself.
And this is for everyone talking about how our religious belief is oppressing us: we have thought long and hard about our beliefs. We thought long and hard about the meaning of our life. We have thought long and hard about what we want to do in our life. We weighed the risks and rewards and continuously do so from the moment we wake up to the moment we sleep. Each of us came into the conclusion that she deems is the right way to live, and is concerning us and each of us alone. We do not need white warriors to show us the way. We do not need your opinion of how we have internalized oppression and how we don't know better because we live through oppression day and night, inside and outside, that we recognize it in all its hideous forms. We do not have a safe space in this world, because whether we wear the niqab, the hijab or none, the sole fact that we are women, muslims and sometimes brown or black means we are not worth safety and recognition in most parts of the world (seriously, is there anywhere in this world that accepts someone like me?). And if we happen to be queer, than we are dead. Our safe space is our religion. We do not need the white colonist rhetoric of saving us from ourselves, we have already done that ourselves. Only ensure us physical and financial safety, thank you very much.
If you have no power to do that, shut up and leave us fight the good fight ourselves.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
quoted because everyone is going to skip over your lived experience, again.
There is not a lot of difference in this line of thinking compared to an insane Christian or Muslim person who wants to convert the entire world to their line of thinking.
There is no humane way to enforce or impose any sort of thought policing.
Personal preference isn't short for anything goes.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Oh yeah, it's just that easy.
Go on.
Muffin1611
Banned
I... didn't... quote you?
Well, then we agree that other measures are important. But I disagree that this law helps. It makes it worse.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
I... didn't... say you did?
Can you provide evidence this law will help anyone?
Muffin1611
Banned
Oh, right. Must have misread "he" for "I". Sorry.
RustyNails
Member
Burqa is a shroud. Women in the pictures are wearing Saris, sometimes with their midriffs exposed.
that's from six years ago, very recent to the implementation of the ban. it's conceivable the situation could be completely different by now. Moreover, if say 5% of burka wearers ended up sitting at home while the rest actually are out in society without the garment I'd consider that a success. Anyone expecting immigrants adapting to western values happening instantaneously is an idiot.
Anyway for me it's not even about fighting oppression(there are far better ways of doing so) but the social cohesion argument. In west we have a tradition of expecting to be able to see the other persons face when communicating in person, I think that's important to preserve in public spaces.
Vicetrailia
Member
I feel like people should be able to wear one of they want to. Perhaps there are other ways to get rid of oppression that may do it better.
This isn't convincing at all.
This isn't convincing at all.
trineo_feo
Member
I think this is a good decision.
In my view, the main difference between American an Europe, is that in Europe we don't let religion dictate morals. We try to dictate our own morals as a society, and have European values that are always going to be above any religious values that you might have.
You can be a Christian but if you morals contradict European values, then your religion has to adapt to society, not the other way around. You can be a Muslim but if you morals contradicts European values, then your religion has to adapt to society, not the other way around. And so on with every religion.
As a society, we are trying to agree in what those European values are. And I think that's a good thing. American society gives too much power to religion freedom - so much, that you have billionaire priests, the ten commandments in the senate of some states, the name of good on your money, some states negating birth control or abortion based on religious beliefs...
I do think woman wearing niqab is clearly a sign of oppresion. The only reason why any person would want to wear such a thing is because they have been brainwashed to make them think that's what they are supposed to do. And they are threatened with exclusion if they don't. As a society, we can't be OK with that.
I mean, you can say they wear it because they want to, but then, why is that only some muslim women wear it? How come no other women from different religions wear them? Maybe it's because it's not that awesome wearing it, and you only do it if you are brainwashed to believe that if you don't, you are going to hell and stuff like that.
In my view, the main difference between American an Europe, is that in Europe we don't let religion dictate morals. We try to dictate our own morals as a society, and have European values that are always going to be above any religious values that you might have.
You can be a Christian but if you morals contradict European values, then your religion has to adapt to society, not the other way around. You can be a Muslim but if you morals contradicts European values, then your religion has to adapt to society, not the other way around. And so on with every religion.
As a society, we are trying to agree in what those European values are. And I think that's a good thing. American society gives too much power to religion freedom - so much, that you have billionaire priests, the ten commandments in the senate of some states, the name of good on your money, some states negating birth control or abortion based on religious beliefs...
I do think woman wearing niqab is clearly a sign of oppresion. The only reason why any person would want to wear such a thing is because they have been brainwashed to make them think that's what they are supposed to do. And they are threatened with exclusion if they don't. As a society, we can't be OK with that.
I mean, you can say they wear it because they want to, but then, why is that only some muslim women wear it? How come no other women from different religions wear them? Maybe it's because it's not that awesome wearing it, and you only do it if you are brainwashed to believe that if you don't, you are going to hell and stuff like that.
MistakenMobius
Member
Of course there is : kids should be educated and raised by the state in order to ensure that religion is eradicated for once and for all.
Destruction of the clergy of those religions and destruction of churches.
France forced priest to marry and desecrated churches, seized ecclesiastical property in 1905, it was a good thing.
This is fantastic, thank you
I wonder if people would be comfortable with a ban on closely cropped haircuts for white men because the look can be attributed to the skinhead movement which has radicalized white men. Perhaps one could argue that there are groups under that moniker that are anti-racist, however, taking chances with that sort of thing, I believe is too risky and prevents minorities and marginalized groups from integrating properly because they feel unsafe. Bald men, of course, would be required to have a professional wig in order to foster a more socially amicable environment.
How can a person identify if a bald white person is a racist skinhead or not unless they make an effort to integrate?
Could this type of proposal be brought forth the European Council? This example is for illustrative purposes obviously but where does the profiling of Muslim women end especially when most of these people in this thread aren't providing resources for them to use and are ignoring a Muslim woman in this thread sharing her firsthand accounts.
Are people invested in helping women or do they just want to feel good about themselves?
How can a person identify if a bald white person is a racist skinhead or not unless they make an effort to integrate?
Could this type of proposal be brought forth the European Council? This example is for illustrative purposes obviously but where does the profiling of Muslim women end especially when most of these people in this thread aren't providing resources for them to use and are ignoring a Muslim woman in this thread sharing her firsthand accounts.
Are people invested in helping women or do they just want to feel good about themselves?
Miles Quaritch
Member
I forgot, we shouldn't do things unless they are easy.
I don't like the Niqab or the Burqa and neither has any serious defensible basis in Islam but a significant number of women are going to suffer and potentially be killed by the disgusting men who enforce this so I can't be happy about it. But how else are they going to eliminate this "tradition?"
I see a lot of force and destruction in your post.
That is not the kind of government I would want to live under.
The exact logic could be applied to almost anyone. Atheists, communists, etc.
The one part I can't disagree with is education and investment in the children.
Muffin1611
Banned
Better funding for education, help hotlines, anonymous help groups? Off the top of my head.
Kralamoonard
Member
Well, statistically we'd also have lots of religious women wearing it too right?
Look it's no secret that Islamically, men and women have different Awrah's i.e. areas that should be covered up and this is not an alien concept even in modern society which is why, for example, men going topless on the streets isn't as frowned upon as if it were a woman doing the same.
Men and women are obviously not the same in this regard. The Niqab isn't a religious obligation and covering the face isn't a 'Fard' thus it's no secret as to why it's only a minority of Muslim women doing so.
Anyhow, I digress. Men are expected to cover up a certain way and so are women. Whether women go 'beyond' this and feel comfortable doing so is their choice as is a Muslim woman doing less. Just because a woman doesn't wear a hijab it doesn't mean they're any less pious or less religious. People have different ways of expressing piety and everyone's on their own personal religious and spiritual journey. As I say all the time, Muslims aren't a monolith, and religiously women and men have different obligations and duties.
For example, to answer your point in a different way, if a man always go to the mosque, perhaps that would signify a level of piety - so statistically, you should expect a women to go to the mosque a lot of the time as well? Well, no because religiously women aren't obliged to go the mosque in the same way as men.
Hope you get what I'm trying to say.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I didnt say your examples were burqa? I mean, youre the one bringing up irrelevant pictures in a thread discussing Niqabs which are Muslim clothing. I brought up an example that is atleast relevant to Muslims, that is the burqa. You brought up an example relevant to Indian culture.
Its literally irrelevant.
This is a discussion on a forum with both men and women. We are all relaying information, I'm not a woman and you (I guess, can be wrong) is not a muslim. And niether of us, as one person, can speak for thousands. The best we can do is listen to other people and bring their statements and opinions into this, and of course give our own take; thats the point of the message board. So yes I think I am absolutely allowed to participate, if you are; if any of us are.
And instead of discussing the points at hand or the arguments I make (all which i have not come up on my own but mostly from a female, liberal, muslim women that has written many articles in swedish press; instead you go at me for being a man. Seriously, if you dont want to discuss, dont post.
Thank you. I will still talk and write even if they are not listening. This is my fight.
I wonder if there is a way to make the text red or purple. That way it'll pop out in the sea of nahs and yahs.
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