I have mixed opinions about this ruling. I completely agree that these full-face veils have no place in a secular society. There's also a safety concern with not being able to identify people who have their face fully covered, and they don't realize that it works against them if they found themselves a suspect of an unfortunate event.
I have mixed opinions about this ruling. I completely agree that these full-face veils have no place in a secular society. There's also a safety concern with not being able to identify people who have their face fully covered, and they don't realize that it works against them if they found themselves a suspect of an unfortunate event.
The problem is that there's a struggle with feminist voices running the risk of being discredited as anti-nationalist (of their home country) or anti-religious in the Middle East. We have to remember that women's adherence to received norms such as veiling and seclusion became forms of nationalist/cultural defense in Middle Eastern countries under severe forms of European colonization threatening the culture itself. Bans such as this will be perceived as another cultural attack from the West, when really we should be advocating for and supporting the women in these communities who speak out against full-face veils and other oppressive ideologies.
Lmao, he wrote the actual way to go about this is written under the image and he and you both rather punish the women themselves for being oppressed. Instead of furthering education.
I can't.
A person wearing an SS uniform is unlikely to be part of a marginalized group, told that they can either wear the uniform or not go outside.That is no contradiction. If you put on an SS uniform with a swastika armband in Germany, you will be arrested.
(And no, I am not saying face veils are like SS uniforms. I am just giving you a simple example of the state telling you what you can't wear.)
Are those improvements somehow in correlation with compulsory religious clothing? I don't see people making the argument that the old Iran was perfect, just that those women very much reject this type of religious clothing.
Well, I for one actually seem to care what Muslim women say.
I see your stance in this is akin to knowing of a situation of abuse and not file a complaint because you're convinced the victim will have it worse.
So does the European Court of Human Rights. Which is why they are upholding the ban of the oppressive niqab.
Lmao, he wrote the actual way to go about this is written under the image and he and you both rather punish the women themselves for being oppressed. Instead of furthering education.Very powerful image. Thank you.
The most important freedom is freedom from religious compulsion.
I can't.
The best way to keep women docile is to indoctrinate them from a young age and to deny them education, which is what has been successfully practiced in Iran ever since.
So are you for or against early childhood religious indoctrination/compulsion?
This is just crazy. Secularism is about the neutrality of State. Banning the veil don't make any sense except if you bring white savior complex or security issues into the mix.
What is the next step ? Banning everything that identify someone as religious in the public space ?
Aren't you the one saying that these women will now stay at home forced by their husbands? That's sounds very much like abuse to me.How is that a proper comparison?
How is that a proper comparison?
The way we see the world is so different that we will never reach an agreenment.
I'm really sorry you have such views. For me, that you need your religion to tell you that you are important is very sad. That, and the fact that you feel wearing a niqab is OK tell me you had a very rough upbringing, in which your freedom was very limited and your life quite controlled.
There is no way in which you are going to convince me that a woman born free, with complete liberty to determine their future, and go to university and learn whatever they want and marry whoever they want and travel wherever they want, is going to choose, at a point in their life, that wearing a niqab is what they want for their life. At least i'm sure as fuck I wouldn't want that for my - hypothetical - daughter.
And I'm sorry, but it's not society or Europe that thinks less of you beause you are a woman or black or gay. We are the ones trying to protect you and other minorities from religious oppression. I mean, it blows my mind that you blame white people and heteronormative society from your oppression, and not Islam and other forms of religion.
My point is they don't belong, not that the government has the right to ban them. Did you even read my next paragraph about how we need to support women to make these decisions for themselves?
Those original "guest workers", as they were called, weren't trying to put women in niqabs.
Maybe that is why integration worked a lot better.
@DerZuhälter
You conveniently ignore that some of us simply believe that covering your face 24/7 has no place in a free and equal society.
That the whole practice is sexist and a form of male control, which has no place in a free and equal society.
Aren't you the one saying that these women will now stay at home forced by their husbands? That's sounds very much like abuse to me.
Yet you're blaming it on the law.
I dunno but whatever the case you wouldn't threaten the abuse victim with jail time for not removing themselves from the abuse.
And I'm sorry, but it's not society or Europe that thinks less of you beause you are a woman or black or gay. We are the ones trying to protect you and other minorities from religious oppression. I mean, it blows my mind that you blame white people and heteronormative society from your oppression, and not Islam and other forms of religion.
We live in a culture where we continually blame the victim for shit, so I wouldn't assume anything.I dunno but whatever the case you wouldn't threaten the abuse victim with jail time for not removing themselves from the abuse.
Maybe the problem with the notion of "free societies taking away liberties" is that we should stop calling them "free societies" because, implicitly, there is no such thing
Well, I for one actually seem to care what Muslim women say.
Seems like Erdogan took power once forced secularization eased up, not because it increased. And despite his rise, Turkey is still more secular than, say, Arab countries in the region. Turkey's large secularist population didn't come out of nowhere--it was a direct result of Ataturk and his repression of Islam.In Iran it gave you Khomeini. In Turkey's, Erdogan. In Algeria, FIS. So, no, forced state-secularization is not working if it goes against society.
At the contrary, it consistently backfire.
Seems like Erdogan took power once forced secularization eased up, not because it increased. And despite his rise, Turkey is still more secular than, say, Arab countries in the region. Turkey's large secularist population didn't come out of nowhere--it was a direct result of Ataturk and his repression of Islam.
I'm also not convinced Iran became Islamist because of too much secularization. I think all of the other problems with the pre-Revolution government, along with foreign meddling, were more important causes.
There's also an awkward question to be answered: if governmental repression of Islam never works to actually repress Islam, why do governments keep doing it? For fun?
The real issue with crushing Islam is a moral one. In terms of whether it can work, the answer seems pretty clear.
Again, speaking for me. Good job. I love you, person who I have no spoken before until today. My white warrior who does not know or understand my life and does not want to.
Inside my home, I had a very happy life, walillahilhamd. My mother is the head of household, completed her degree while bringing us up. I done well in school, got into uni, and now I'm completing my masters. My immediate family are my heroes, even if they still don't understand certain things (i.e. being a queer). I still try to bring up the topic, but that is literally the only hurdle between them and me.
Outside our house, the world is hostile. I have been discriminated against for being black, the child of immigrants, for being a woman who has a religious belief and dares to show it, inside and outside Europe. Since I was a child I was aware that the world is not as safe as my home. I have heard stories of people being persecuted for being black, for being of another clan, for being an immigrant, for being muslim. I used to watch the news with my mother, and she told us of how she herself has being imprisoned back in her home country for wearing the hijab (and now they persecute women if they don't wear the hijab, see a pattern here?).
I grow up in countries where Human Rights is touted, and where there are no human rights. I faced many challenges, all oppressions under different guises, and triumphed against some, while failed against others, and learned from my failure. Throughout all this, my only constant apart from being a story-lover, was my faith. I fought for my rights because I wanted to, and I have God and my faith backing me up. Is that too hard to understand? Am I pitiful for relying on my faith to view life optimistically when there are so many bigots hating me for existing? Are you telling me that now the Human Rights court have approved a law that works against me, I'm so pitifal to rely on my faith to keep going against the injustice and to get angry about it? Are you saying that my fight is not worth it? What fights are worth it? Tell me. I am a muslim. My faith is part of my identity. Not only because I grew up with it, but that I believe it is the right way to live. I am as muslim as I am black, queer and female. I may not be worth it to you, as I am sure a lot of people around the world think. You may think that I shouldn't be existing, that combination of too many minority identities must be exhausting or wrong (whichever camp of the ignorance you are). But let me tell you: I am proud of who I am. I am not ashamed of who I am. I had a good but difficult life, but I would never exchange it for anything else.
Belittle me all you want. Pity me all you want. Tell me that I'm wrong and that you know how I should live my life. You are not helping me and you are not my white knight warrior. And you shall not speak on my behalf further.
And what do they say?
Because I talked with some (not a lot, this isn't some empirical study) refugees from Syria and they seem torn. Some women were against it, some were for it. Same with the men. To be fair, only one person outright said the Niqab should be banned.
Still, this isn't an "Muslim vs non-muslim" thing. Not surprisingly among the millions and millions of Muslims there are a lot of dissenting opinions.
Good post. This ban will not accomplish anything useful unless society actively tackles the problem with integration. In fact it is certain to make things worse.Can someone tell me what programs are available to women in this circumstance to "integrate?" Are their specifically trained Muslim counselors coming to families? Are people checking in women who are no longer leaving the house and addressing that? Is there a hotline for Muslim women to call? Is there a step-down program where a woman can go out in this garb and transition into another one without being fined or jailed? What are things in place to help "free" Muslim women?
I have my own feelings about this kind of ban but can someone at least showcase resources for these women?
Sure, but those countries became less theistic under repression. The resurgence only started when the repression stopped.I mean it's not just Turkey or Iran. Another interesting example is that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the countries under their former rule became increasingly theistic and there was a growing number of people believing in god. So I don't necessarily agree with your assessment.
lol please. Society will not collapse because a misogynistic garment is banned. On the contrary, societies do collapse when oppressive theocracies gain a foothold.Who needs Islamic extremism to rail against freedom and liberty when parts of the West seem hell bent on destroying those very ideals it covets so dearly themselves.
As an intersectional feminist, all I can say to this without violating the forum's ToS is: don't tell me what I think or don't think.The people crying "oppression, oppression" don't think about that, because all they care about is sticking it to uppity brown people.
How in the hell are there so many people defending this? GAF normally isn't so islamophobic, is it?
How in the hell are there so many people defending this? GAF normally isn't so islamophobic, is it?
As an intersectional feminist, all I can say to this without violating the forum's ToS is: don't tell me what I think or don't think.
Religious people are the absolute last people society should take into consideration when deciding what to do about a religion and it's place and effects in society.Look at wartamas posts. That's what I wanted to express with that. Or any other muslims post, for that matter.
Good. The niqab is misogynistic as fuck.
lol please. Society will not collapse because a misogynistic garment is banned. On the contrary, societies do collapse when oppressive theocracies gain a foothold.
As an intersectional feminist, all I can say to this without violating the forum's ToS is: don't tell me what I think or don't think.
Sure, but those countries became less theistic under repression. The resurgence only started when the repression stopped.
China's blatant anti-Islam policies seem to be working to curb Islamism in Xinjiang, too, at least for the moment.
That's quite the hypocritical statement, especially in this thread.
Religious people are the absolute last people society should take into consideration when deciding what to do about a religion and it's place and effects in society.
Religious people are the absolute last people society should take into consideration when deciding what to do about a religion and it's place and effects in society.
Look at wartamas posts. That's what I wanted to express with that. Or any other muslims post, for that matter.
That's quite the hypocritical statement, especially in this thread.
Again, speaking for me. Good job. I love you, person who I have no spoken before until today. My white warrior who does not know or understand my life and does not want to.
Belittle me all you want. Pity me all you want. Tell me that I'm wrong and that you know how I should live my life. You are not helping me and you are not my white knight warrior. And you shall not speak on my behalf further.
Newdust said it best:
"People deciding what's best for people they don't know on an issue that doesn't impact them in the slightest."
Religion effects pretty much every one pretty much every day. Even if you're an atheist. Society is so molded around it even non religious people have to deal with the decisions religious people make because thry make up such a large part of society, and have influence because of it.Newdust said it best:
"People deciding what's best for people they don't know on an issue that doesn't impact them in the slightest."
Of course they will, or do you really think their men will do the groceries now?! /s
Come on now. You've been consistently complimenting this fine poster who has reiterated the same point, no?
I did.
I just wanted to post that this isn't a simple "Muslims don't want this, only Europeans" issue
I do realize now that that is probably not what you tried to say though
"This is a free society, so we're going to tell you what you can't wear"
I see what kind of point you're trying to make but that type of behavior only serves a status quo. If the status quo is repressive but it is socially ingrained that such is the way of life and it is fine, then nothing can be done about it. Take for example feminism in Russia. Women are systematically and socially discriminated against, the idea of a patriarchy is very real and alive, and it is supported by the religious establishment. But such is the norm and this is internalized so deeply that the majority of women also revile feminism and just see the injustice taking place around them as a fact of life that is normal or even right.