Support NeoGAF

[boiled goose]

Public dress codes are a thing in many countries, e.g. prohibition of nudity. Can't say I disagree.



There are always exceptions.

Rational standards are fine.
A face visible standard would ban all masks, helmets, etc.

Is that the standard here?

Oh right. This is a bigoted attempt targeting a specific group.

 

[Menchi]

By forcing some Muslim women to stay at home?

Oh the law forces that then? Not the oppressive husband?

 

[kswiston]

Because there are no women wearing this by their choice right?

In the end, that doesn't really matter. No one is free to do what they want in a society. Every society makes rules like this depending on what they perceive as social norms.

The only real argument here is if the ruling impedes human rights in any way, or is purposely discriminatory.

 

[Chuckie]

You could make the case that this ban is an institutional oppression of women as well.

No. Men are also banned to wear the niqab.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Yeah.

There might be women who are negatively impacted by this and who feel they need to stay at home now, and that sucks, but they aren't a victim of this ruling, they are a victim of the religion being the way it is in the first place.

The religion (and men of the religion) need to adapt and stop oppressing.

I guess seeking to educate only applies to certain demographics.

 

[NewDust]

So would this also be banned in the EU? They are putting stuff on to cover their faces. I mean we can all agree that this is "morally" wrong and unacceptable in any society. I'm just curious on how deep does this ruling's well go.

I'd be okay with that. There really isn't a reason to dress like this outside of "it's tradition". At least glad that institutions are changing the portrayal of Zwarte Piet, though it goes to slow.

 

[boiled goose]

There's no ruling yet, but there seems to be a consensus among most of the parties that if you are in a public space, you are required to show your full face, which means that niqab and burka should be illegal to use.

I see no wrong with making finlandshette illegal btw.

So if you're cold no ski masks?
If you're riding a motorcycle on a public street, no helmets?

No costumes in public either?

 

[Breakage]

I will never be in favor of banning any attire in public.

Now many of these women won't be able to even leave the house.

This ban is bigoted irrational and silly. All face masks apply? Is there a rational standard?

The veil is sexist and wrong. And women are pressured and coerced into wearing it. But there's no rational standard to determine that. Instead the law blanketly removes choice.

So it shouldn't be banned because women won't be able to leave the house? Never mind that when fully clad they are essentially reduced to walking shadows deprived of any identity in public life. Conveniently a similar reduction of personhood doesn't apply to men. They have to cover up first and they'll be able to leave the house! They should be grateful! Here's the thing though, they can leave the house without the niqab and burqa just like millions of other women in Europe do. You speak as if the niqab is essential to one's breathing.

 

[Kralamoonard]

Your post falls apart because everything about it is a strawman.


I can also understand that people believe in a flat earth or that they need to blow themselves up and kill others to get in heaven. (well, I can understand how they get conditioned to believe this)

So what? Doesn't mean it's the "right thing" or beneficial to society from my point of view.

Ironically your own post is the straw man. Comparing the ridiculous notions you mentioned to a woman want to wear what they want is disgusting because again, it demonstrates how ignorant you are and that you have no grasp on the reasons they wear it vs the examples you mentioned. Again it's because you've probably never talked to a Niqabi woman and super imposing your assumptions on them without actually understanding why they do what they do.

People can believe in a flat earth if they want (FWIW, since you mention it in this context, Muslims don't), they're not harming anyone. They're stupid yes, but that's irrelevant to the point I mention.

As for the blowing themselves up, that is harming many people including Muslims themselves by some twisted logic that again has nothing to do with personal piety because the religious foundation of that mentality is non existent -- it's illogical and naturally counter intuitive. The niqab situation is completely different on the other hand.

Again, you're comparing apples to donkeys (not even oranges lol).

 

[DarkJak101]

That's just depressing. Although I feel like this ban will only hurt those that wear the Niqab and not their human trash husbands, they just won't be allowed to leave the house, destroying the little freedom they had. Hopefully the long term sees fewer people wearing Niqabs

I don't understand people having views like this. As a Muslim, most Muslim women I know wear the Niqab because they want to, because they choose to, not because they're forced to by their husbands or families. I have friends who choose to wear the niqab while their sisters or mothers don't wear anything on their heads at all. It's a choice. And pretending that all women who wear niqab are "forced to wear it" and "have no freedom or choice" is a bit ignorant, especially in Europe and other developed nations. Obviously it's different in places like Iraq or Syria, but in these developed nations, people should have the right to choose if they want to wear or not wear it. It seems like they're taking away these women's freedom of choice while screaming about how they have so little freedom.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Rational standards are fine.
A face visible standard would ban all masks, helmets, etc.

Is that the standard here?

Oh right. This is a bigoted attempt targeting a specific group.

All face-covering headgear is banned outside of specific circumstances (eg. you can wear a helmet while on a motorcycle). There was previously an exception in the law for Muslim face veils, which was nixed.

Is it actually that hard to read the article?

 

[boiled goose]

So it shouldn't be banned because women won't be able to leave the house? Never mind that when fully clad they are essentially reduced to walking shadows deprived of any identity in public life. Conveniently a similar reduction of personhood doesn't apply to men. They'll be able to leave the house! They should be grateful! Here's the thing though, they can leave the house without the niqab and burqa just like millions of other women in Europe do. You speak as if the niqab is essential to one's breathing.

I am extremely against religion but I'm also against this ban.

The ban is targeted.

Or are all facial coverings banned?

(They should be grateful!) Really? Wow.

 

[finley83]

When I'm cycling to work in winter I often have a scarf covering my face from just below my eyes down to my neck. The helmet covers the top of my head above my eyes. The idea is to stop my face freezing in the icy wind and rain.

Potentially, could this be prohibited using this law? If so it appears to represent a potential overreach by legislators.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Oh the law forces that then? Not the oppressive husband?

You're coming to this assuming all women are forced to wear the face veil.

 

[SamVimes]

I am extremely against religion but I'm also against this ban.

The ban is targeted.

Or are all facial coverings banned?

(They should be grateful!) Really? Wow.

Uhm yes. Unless they're for health reasons I assume.

 

[boiled goose]

All face-covering headgear is banned outside of specific circumstances (eg. you can wear a helmet while on a motorcycle). There was previously an exception in the law for Muslim face veils, which was nixed.

Is it actually that hard to read the article?

So no ski masks when cold?
What if I was riding a motorcycle and just got off? How long can I wear the helmet before I have to take it off?

 

[rudger]

This doesn't sit well with me at all.

Agreed. Laws like these are just disturbing and only create division.

 

[E-phonk]

Again, the government it literally limiting women's rights in this situation.

Governements and laws are constantly limiting peoples rights, in order to be beneficial for society as a whole.
I can't drive as fast as I want, I can't carry a gun, I am not allowed to insult other people in public, I am not allowed to drive around drunk.
Neither am I allowed to walk around in the street naked.

So no ski masks when cold?
What if I was riding a motorcycle and just got off? How long can I wear the helmet before I have to take it off?

At any time you have to take your mask/helmet whatever off when police asks.

 

[fantomena]

So if you're cold no ski masks?
If you're riding a motorcycle on a public street, no helmets?

No costumes in public either?

How would I know? Im not making the laws. Those are probably exceptions the government has made.

Again, the government it literally limiting women's rights in this situation.

The government has always and will always limit your rights.

 

[Occam]

Laws like these are just disturbing and only create division.

Such disturbance, much division. Of course women covering their entire face doesn't create any division.

 

[Kralamoonard]

You're coming to this assuming all women are forced to wear the face veil.

Seems ironic doesn't it? Many in this thread assume they must be forced to wear it and have no independent reasoning but rather they need 'liberating' to the 'superior western values' which ends up oppressing them and disenfranchising them even further (on top of the abuse they get in the first place by bigots on the streets just because of what they wear).

 

[TheRedSnifit]

So no ski masks when cold?
What if I was riding a motorcycle and just got off? How long can I wear the helmet before I have to take it off?

Are you walking around in public with face covering headgear in a situation that isn't an exception under this law that can easily be found on Google?

You tell me!

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You're coming to this assuming all women are forced to wear the face veil.

Which is false according to all sociological studies about the niqab in the West. In many cases, it's against the husband/family will.

Here a documentary about it.

 

[Oddish1]

Y'know if the argument was based around security and this being necessary to achieve that I could understand even if I disagreed with it.

What's gross is the fact that everyone seems to be defending it by saying they're doing some White Man's Burden favor to Muslim women that they know what's best and if we need to go against values like religious freedom to give them what's best then they'll do it.

 

[boiled goose]

How would I know? Im not making the laws. Those are probably exceptions the government has made.



The government has always and will always limit your rights.

So how does the government determine if I'm cold enough to wear a ski mask? Or if Im wearing it because of my religion?

 

[sechsterangriff]

So no ski masks when cold?
What if I was riding a motorcycle and just got off? How long can I wear the helmet before I have to take it off?

To be honest if people see you wearing a helmet and nowhere near a bike they'll think you're a very suspicious character. Specially with the recent shootings in mind. The same with skii masks.

 

[fantomena]

So how does the government determine if I'm cold enough to wear a ski mask? Or if Im wearing it because of my religion?

Ask the government.

To be honest if people see you wearing a helmet and nowhere near a bike they'll think you're a very suspicious character. Specially with the recent shootings in mind. The same with skii masks.

Yeah, agreed. If you are just walking around in public with a helmet (motorcycle) or a ski mask (even when it's cold), you will be suspicious to most people.

 

[Menchi]

You're coming to this assuming all women are forced to wear the face veil.

So they're choosing not to go out for personal/religious reasons then?

Someone -choosing- to forgo leaving their home because of religious/personal reasons isn't being oppressed. If their husbands aren't allowing them to leave, then they're being opppressed by their husband, not the law.

 

[Kralamoonard]

Fuck them. And fuck everyone who's alright with it.

I guess 'Freedom of choice' and "Fight against oppression' has finally come with the asterisk 'so long it's in line with the eurocentric view that the global society should look like us. If they go against our ideal, fuck them and we don't care what happens to them. la la la WE DO CARE ABOUT WOMEN yeah'

I have personal account of being discriminated against and insulted because of my choice to wear the niqab. My mother was imprisoned back in her home country because she chose to wear the hijab, not even the niqab. I know a friend who was beaten up by her father because she chose to wear the niqab, and no one helped her because 'she was the one in the wrong'. Here, in UK. There's a lot of violence against the women in muslim communities because the men dictate how they should dress. If they want them to dress less, they should dress less. If they want them to dress more, they should dress more. And in neither cases should the women have a say in the matter. And guess what the white man (and woman, let's be fair, they're part of the problem too) these muslim men want to appease want?

And now that the court of HUMAN RIGHTS has given the ok to further bully these women, those who wore it because of personal reasons will rather stay at home than be part of the society, and those who were forced to do it will now be told to stay home by their fucktards patriarchs. And before you say why don't they tell the police, no the authorities don't care what these poor women go through. Someone I know went through violent domestic abuse (and she doesn't wear the niqab, by the way) and every single time she went to the authorities she was sent back to her abuser. She escaped to another country when she had four children and couldn't handle it anymore. I don't know whether her abuser followed her. To this day, she suffers from severe mental illnesses.

But you know, they're muslim women. At the end of the day they don't matter, let's make some more rules that work against them.

.

But I thought oppression against women can only be forcing them to wear headscarves? /s

People are in for a rude awakening if they don't think the opposite doesn't happen. I've had family members be emotionally abused and devestated for many years because they couldn't wear the hijab out of their own choice.

Once again, the double standards on display ITT are amazing.

Y'know if the argument was based around security and this being necessary to achieve that I could understand even if I disagreed with it.

What's gross is the fact that everyone seems to be defending it by saying they're doing some White Man's Burden favor to Muslim women that they know what's best and if we need to go against values like religious freedom to give them what's best then they'll do it.

It's funny isn't it? It ends up being sexist in itself and is reminiscent of the colonial imperialistic mentality that plagued many Muslim countries for decades, creating this superiority complex that 'our way is objectively better' whilst wilfully ignoring that many of the victims of these laws aren't as passive as they purposefully assume.

It reminds me of this French propaganda poster in Algeria asking women to uncover themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Propaganda...nt_you_pretty_unveil_yourself_french_algeria/

Hey at least they were transparent about it back then...and that's as mild compared to what they did (read the top comment).

 

[boiled goose]

To be honest if people see you wearing a helmet and nowhere near a bike they'll think you're a very suspicious character. Specially with the recent shootings in mind. The same with skii masks.

What's the legal distance to bike to not be suspicious?

How cold is cold enough for ski masks or scarfs over face to not be suspicious?

No Street performers with costumes either then?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Governements and laws are constantly limiting peoples rights, in order to be beneficial for society as a whole.
I can't drive as fast as I want, I can't carry a gun, I am not allowed to insult other people in public, I am not allowed to drive around drunk.
Neither am I allowed to walk around in the street naked.

It's kind of hilarious seeing people on this forum suddenly become borderline objectivists when religion comes up.

 

[Chuckie]

So how does the government determine if I'm cold enough to wear a ski mask? Or if Im wearing it because of my religion?

Try walking in a bank with a ski-mask on and see what happens. Same with a closed motor helmet. These things weren't allowed in public spaces for a while now. But the niqab was excluded. Now it is not excluded anymore.

 

[Aureon]

Both are signs of oppression.
So win the battle via oppression from government.

Makes sense!

Not seeing niqabs around is a sign of oppression?

 

[boiled goose]

Try walking in a bank with a ski-mask on and see what happens. Same with a closed motor helmet. These things weren't allowed in public spaces for a while now. But the niqb was excluded. Not it is not excluded anymore.

Banks and buildings can have codes.

Outdoor public spaces? Fight oppression by mandating dress codes?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

What's the legal distance to bike to not be suspicious?

How cold is cold enough for ski masks or scarfs over face to not be suspicious?

No Street performers with costumes either then?

Did you know that the government has written down the law and put it on the Internet?

Maybe you should look it up and have your questions answered instead of shitposting.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Can someone tell me what programs are available to women in this circumstance to "integrate?" Are their specifically trained Muslim counselors coming to families? Are people checking in women who are no longer leaving the house and addressing that? Is there a hotline for Muslim women to call? Is there a step-down program where a woman can go out in this garb and transition into another one without being fined or jailed? What are things in place to help "free" Muslim women?

I have my own feelings about this kind of ban but can someone at least showcase resources for these women?

Come on, we both know that we won't see programs like this being created or receiving extra funding. That would require people concerned over the niqab to actually care about women's rights.

 

[His Majesty]

Agreed. Laws like these are just disturbing and only create division.

I think these laws are aimed at eradicating the divisions created by a niqab. A woman in a niqab will never be able to fully integrate in society as it functions as a huge barrier and deterrent for other people. Which echoes the statement of the court in an earlier ruling.

"The court found that the concern to ensure respect for the minimum guarantees of life in society could be regarded as an element of the 'protection of the rights and freedoms of others' and that the ban was justifiable in principle, solely to the extent that it sought to guarantee the conditions of 'living together'."

 

[Captain Smoker]

Ironically your own post is the straw man. Comparing the ridiculous notions you mentioned to a woman want to wear what they want is disgusting because again, it demonstrates how ignorant you are and that you have no grasp on the reasons they wear it vs the examples you mentioned. Again it's because you've probably never talked to a Niqabi woman and super imposing your assumptions on them without actually understanding why they do what they do.

People can believe in a flat earth if they want (FWIW, since you mention it in this context, Muslims don't), they're not harming anyone. They're stupid yes, but that's irrelevant to the point I mention.

As for the blowing themselves up, that is harming many people including Muslims themselves by some twisted logic that again has nothing to do with personal piety because the religious foundation of that mentality is non existent -- it's illogical and naturally counter intuitive. The niqab situation is completely different on the other hand.

Again, you're comparing apples to donkeys (not even oranges lol).

Your problem is that you take my comparison literal.

I haven't stated that suicide bombers are equally bad as flat earthers or women who wear a Niqab.


And I'd also argue that flat earthers and other conspiracy idiots aren't harming anyone because this might lead them to vote for stupid politicians,
believe in other stupid conspiracy theories like "vaccines cause autism" and we have idiots like Trump who believe conspiracy shit aswell (see climate change).

 

[Social]

Good, I don't think it's right in any society.

yup, 100% this

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Seems ironic doesn't it? Many in this thread assume they must be forced to wear it and have no independent reasoning but rather they need 'liberating' to the 'superior western values' which ends up oppressing them and disenfranchising them even further (on top of the abuse they get in the first place by bigots on the streets just because of what they wear).

I don't want to discount the fact that some might be pressured into it, but from having spoken to a couple of women who wear the full veil, it was a personal choice. One after she was abused on the street and called a slut for not wanting to talk with a guy and the other because she wanted to be closer to her religion.

Neither were married and one's father had recently died which pushed her closer to religion and putting the full veil on. She even agreed the Qur'an doesn't explicitly demand it, but she still chose to put it on.

 

[fantomena]

The laws of the country is on the Internet, you can most likely just look them up to see how things are required to be in the public sphere,

What's the legal distance to bike to not be suspicious?

The moment you get off your bike and you don't take of the helmet, it's suspicious.

How cold is cold enough for ski masks or scarfs over face to not be suspicious?

Any cold, if I see any person wearing a ski masks (which I have surprisingly never seen), I would be automatically be suspicious.

No Street performers with costumes either then?

Im not sure how it is in every country, but as far as I know, In Norway, you actually have to be granted permission the the police or whoever it is to perform something on the street. If any Norwegian is here, correct me if Im wrong.

 

[CSJ]

I think there's something to be said about our own sensibilities, culture, beliefs and societal norms; about how we respect those in the countries we visit or move to.
Yet when it comes to the reverse, we scream about freedoms we don't get to observe when being a visitor, or immigrant ourselves.

But I also understand in these parts of the world we should be more open and accepting to stuff like this, just because where they come from they may not be, doesn't mean we should.

However I feel if you come from a place that oppresses you with such an item and you move to a place that doesn't, integrate and learn the culture of the place you are going to, because it's rude to cover your face in full where I'm from, religion aside.

To be fair, it's never something that's going to effect me most likely and I've never seen anyone wear one, people wear Hijab's here so at least I can see who I'm talking to, react to facial expressions and not just some voice behind a mask.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sometimes societies need to make decisions that not everyone is going to like, and at times may cause initial disruption for some. Inaction often has the consequence of being an action, meaning to allow full-face veils to become more routine in our societies. This is one of these situations we need to face now, as they are being seen more often. The values most of our Western societies push forward as progressive and pro-integration based have very little room for one of the most oppressive, abusive and human rights restricting religious garbs around. Although some will argue it's not a religious garb. Either way, you do not see men or non-Muslim women wearing anything like the full-face veils, so it's seen as it appears (religiously enforced/motivated, often by men stating women better wear them or face consequences).

Also, when we see feminists and women's rights advocates in some Middle Eastern countries actively fighting to rid themselves of full-face veils (often to go to head scarfs) and screaming at us over in the West not to subject our residents/women to them it kind of makes a mockery of everything they are trying to fight against so people over here can pat themselves on the back and say "I'm soo progressive I support the most regressive/oppressive things to be tolerant of everything!". I find that harder to stomach than bickering within our nations of our stances on them, the throwing of feminists and activists abroad under buses as if their struggles mean nothing. Long story short, given the history of these full-face coverings and what regimes in the world routinely force them upon women, it's not really surprising the European Court of Human Rights would take a stance on them like this. This is just my 2 cents on this situation as well, and not a post which aims to convince other posters or readers either way.

 

[Kthulhu]

The niqab is religious institutional oppression of women. Plain and simple.

What about the women who choose to wear one?

 

[BlackLagoon]

Why are people trying to compare something that covers the whole head with a tiny slit for the eyes to a regular respirator that leaves most of the head and face uncovered?

Is that my post you're referring to? I can assure you that when I go outside in the cold, my head is most assuredly not "uncovered". I usually have a beanie and a big bulky hood on. In the end there's not much but my eyes visible either. It's much the same if there's a real rainstorm going on as well.

You remove it when you board trains, enter airports, walk indoors, nice weather, etc? Not the same

How is it not the same when I do have it on? If covering your face in public places is banned, then covering your face in public places is banned and I would still be violating the law when I'm outside.

 

[Chuckie]

Banks and buildings can have codes.

Outdoor public spaces? Fight oppression by mandating dress codes?

Outdoor in the Netherlands is allowed, but once you enter a closed public space you have to reveal your face.

If covering your face in public places is banned, then covering your face in public places is banned and I would still be violating the law when I'm outside.

Not in the Netherlands.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Good. The full face veil shit is stupid and should be ridiculed all the way.

.

 

[Dilly]

Threads like these always end up in tens of whataboutisms (none if which make any sense either), breaking down any sensible discussion about the subject.

 

[boiled goose]

The laws of the country is on the Internet, you can most likely just look them up to see how things are required to be in the public sphere,



The moment you get off your bike and you don't take of the helmet, it's suspicious.



Any cold, if I see any person wearing a ski masks (which I have surprisingly never seen), I would be automatically be suspicious.



Im not sure how it is in every country, but as far as I know, In Norway, you actually have to be granted permission the the police or whoever it is to perform something on the street. If any Norwegian is here, correct me if Im wrong.

How quickly do I have to take off my helmet?
You've never seen anyone cover their face in the cold or the sun?

So you can wear a veil of you are performing someone wearing a veil but cant wear one just because?

 

[Kralamoonard]

I don't want to discount the fact that some might be pressured into it, but from having spoken to a couple of women who wear the full veil, it was a personal choice. One after she was abused on the street and called a slut for not wanting to talk with a guy and the other because she wanted to be closer to her religion.

Neither were married and one's father had recently died which pushed her closer to religion and putting the full veil on. She even agreed the Qur'an doesn't explicitly demand it, but she still chose to put it on.

Yep completely agree; not that it hasn't happened in the west mind you, but most people ITT are choosing to be wilfully ignorant.