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[TheRedSnifit]

Is that my post you're referring to? I can assure you that when I go outside in the cold, my head is most assuredly not "uncovered". I usually have a beanie and a big bulky hood on. In the end there's not much but my eyes visible either. It's much the same if there's a real rainstorm going on as well..

Then it's illegal. Whether the police care to arrest you or not (most niqab users don't get hassled by the police either) is a different issue.

 

[Kayhan]

What about the women who choose to wear one?

They are aiding and abetting the oppression of muslim women in Europe and elsewhere.

But thankfully the European Court of Human Rights have made the right decision.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

My personal feeling on this is that a ban is counterproductive. Congratulations, you've removed face veils from public view in your country. Now all those women are shut up at home. Female empowerment is, after all, all about the state intervening to decide on the One True Way a woman is allowed to live their life.

I hope the evidence shows I am wrong, though.

 

[E-phonk]

It's kind of hilarious seeing people on this forum suddenly become borderline objectivists when religion comes up.

To be honest: if it was up to me all religion and all religious exceptions would be banned from law.

(As a matter of fact, in Europe this is often already the case. I know America works differently.)

 

[rudger]

Try walking in a bank with a ski-mask on and see what happens. Same with a closed motor helmet. These things weren't allowed in public spaces for a while now. But the niqb was excluded. Not it is not excluded anymore.

You just gave examples of private companies. In public you can absolutely wear face masks in lots of "free" societies. Also, quoting the article:

The court ruled that the restriction sought to guarantee social cohesion, the "protection of the rights and freedoms of others" and that it was "necessary in a democratic society", a statement said.

the decision is directly related to the people being Muslim, not just some exception to a law that was in place for people's safety like you're suggesting.

 

[TeddyBoy]

I understand the opinion of those who feels that women should be allowed to wear the full face veil and my opinion on the subject has changed several times in the last couple of years.

I'm currently in favour of this ruling as although authoritarian in nature, for me the full face veil is a symbol of female oppression and with its removal you help remove that oppression.

Yes, that is simplistic and I'm sure there are many cases where women choose to wear these items of clothing willingly but it is one of the states guiding principles to protect the rights of minorities and women. Both of these I believe are protected with this ruling.

 

[fantomena]

Threads like these always end up in tens of whataboutisms (none if which make any sense either), breaking down any sensible discussion about the subject.

What if it's Halloween.
What if it's some sort of costume competition.
What if it's cold outside.
What if you're biking.
What if
What if
What if


Nobody here writes laws ( I assume), stop asking "what if's" and start to try to look up the laws on the Internet. I guess most countries have some part of their laws on the Internet. Try there.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Women choosing to wear what they want: oppression.
State deciding for them: liberation.

I mean, stop pretending it's a security issue while bringing "oppressive husbands" around. It's clearly (at least in France) an ideological move targeting muslims. It's a move against choice and auto determination. If a husband is forcing her wife to wear something, it's already outlawed.

 

[Oddish1]

Sometimes societies need to make decisions that not everyone is going to like, and at times may cause initial disruption for some. Inaction often has the consequence of being an action, meaning to allow full-face veils to become more routine in our societies. This is one of these situations we need to face now, as they are being seen more often. The values most of our Western societies push forward as progressive and pro-integration based have very little room for one of the most oppressive, abusive and human rights restricting religious garbs around. Although some will argue it's not a religious garb. Either way, you do not see men or non-Muslim women wearing anything like the full-face veils, so it's seen as it appears (religiously enforced/motivated, often by men stating women better wear them or face consequences).

Also, when we see feminists and women's rights advocates in some Middle Eastern countries actively fighting to rid themselves of full-face veils (often to go to head scarfs) and screaming at us over in the West not to subject our residents/women to them it kind of makes a mockery of everything they are trying to fight against so people over here can pat themselves on the back and say "I'm soo progressive I support the most regressive/oppressive things to be tolerant of everything!". I find that harder to stomach than bickering within our nations of our stances on them, the throwing of feminists and activists abroad under buses as if their struggles mean nothing. Long story short, given the history of these full-face coverings and what regimes in the world routinely force them upon women, it's not really surprising the European Court of Human Rights would take a stance on them like this. This is just my 2 cents on this situation as well, and not a post which aims to convince other posters or readers either way.

This decision and everyone defending it feels like the biggest self-congratulatory pat on the back "I'm so much better than that oppressive religion and really we're doing Muslim women a favor". Other countries enforcing this dress code doesn't mean we should ban it. That's pretty narrow thinking.

 

[Skinpop]

It's a band aid. The aim should be better assimilation, which seems to be more difficult in these European countries.

it's not that its more difficult, it's that we are far beyond the available resources that are needed for proper integration, combined with the fact that canada+usa handpick their immigrants compared to Europe where anyone is let in.

also this post deserves to be quoted again:

I think it'll obviously be a net benefit to these women, but regardless of that, the situation you brought up where men will just not allow their wives to leave the house will probably also happen.

That being said though, most of the time, these women are housewives I would presume. Who's gonna take the kids to school? Or go grocery shopping? Or whatever else? I think that for a lot of these men who make their wives wear this type of veil, they're doing it because it's basically no skin off their back. Once it starts inconveniencing them, I think a significant percentage will get around to joining us in the modern age.

 

[Chuckie]

You just gave examples of private companies. In public you can absolutely wear face masks in lots of "free" societies. Also, quoting the article:



the decision is directly related to the people being Muslim, not just some exception to a law that was in place for people's safety like you're suggesting.

I was talking about the Dutch situation, my apologies.

In the Netherlands all face-covering items like motor helmets, niqab and ski-masks are prohibited in closed public spaces.

Edit: Also the reasons the European Court allow the ban on face covering items is not the same as the reason given for the ban. Ie: The law banning it says it is about identification (so all full face covering items) the upholding by the European Court considers religion.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

How quickly do I have to take off my helmet?
You've never seen anyone cover their face in the cold or the sun?

So you can wear a veil of you are performing someone wearing a veil but cant wear one just because?

You are being completely disingenuous. Why don't you go read the reasoning for the ruling and then come back to us and have a constructive discussion.

 

[Captain Smoker]

So no ski masks when cold?
What if I was riding a motorcycle and just got off? How long can I wear the helmet before I have to take it off?

Side fact, there are several "anti-mask laws" in Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws


Example from Germany:

Since 1985, according to § 17a Abs. 2 Versammlungsgesetz you may not disguise your identity in public meetings such as demonstrations so the police are able to identify you. This violation can be fined with imprisonment up to one year.[15]

 

[fantomena]

How quickly do I have to take off my helmet?
You've never seen anyone cover their face in the cold or the sun?

So you can wear a veil of you are performing someone wearing a veil but cant wear one just because?

Father than the lightning.

Try look up the laws and check for yourself and stop asking all the what if's.

 

[boiled goose]

What if it's Halloween.
What if it's some sort of costume competition.
What if it's cold outside.
What if yo're biking.
What if
What if
What if


Nobody here writes laws ( I assume), stop asking "what if's" and start to try to look up the laws on the Internet. I guess most countries have some part of their laws on the Internet. Try there.

Such a copout. So you support something you don't even understand?

Provide a link to the law. Laws can be irrational. I argue that's the case here. It's targeted, and provides no legal enforceable rational standard .

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Wait people are trying to use ski masks in the cold as a strawman

Theyre called ski masks

You use them when skiing

Ive never seem a person just where a ski mask whilst walking when its cold. Thats just weird and suspicious.

 

[Kthulhu]

Tough shit. This is Europe, not North Korea.

Stop inhibiting the rights of individuals.

If governments and society are so intent on helping Muslim women who are trapped in abusive relationships where the veil is forced upon them, they'd be spending money on outreach programs and giving them the voice they deserve, not using them as political footballs to score points with the less mentally stable parts of the electorate.

This. If they actually cares what was happening to women who are forced to wear veils and other head covering then they'd be trying to help them get out of these abusive relationships, not pushing them twords their abusers and taking choice away from women who actually want to wear one.

 

[boiled goose]

Side fact, there are several "anti-mask laws" in Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws


Example from Germany:

Since 1985, according to § 17a Abs. 2 Versammlungsgesetz you may not disguise your identity in public meetings such as demonstrations so the police are able to identify you. This violation can be fined with imprisonment up to one year.[15]

Specifies public demonstrations.
If police ask to identify yourself, I'm fine with you being required to do so.

 

[fantomena]

Such a copout. So you support something you don't even understand?.

I have a very simple understanding of this: face veils should be banned from the public sphere, finlandshette, niqab, burka etc.

However, there will be exceptions.

Read this, I think this is set in motion: Government: Prohibition of nikab in all schools and colleges

 

[johancruijff]

you won't find a lot of people against it here

 

[Kthulhu]

They are aiding and abetting the oppression of muslim women in Europe and elsewhere.

But thankfully the European Court of Human Rights have made the right decision.

Lol, okay then. Guess all those American Muslim women I've met just hate women.

 

[wartama]

Can someone tell me what programs are available to women in this circumstance to "integrate?" Are their specifically trained Muslim counselors coming to families? Are people checking in women who are no longer leaving the house and addressing that? Is there a hotline for Muslim women to call? Is there a step-down program where a woman can go out in this garb and transition into another one without being fined or jailed? What are things in place to help "free" Muslim women?

I have my own feelings about this kind of ban but can someone at least showcase resources for these women?

I think I heard about it and it was something that involved wearing pants, straightening curly hair, and going to the beach in summer (but you need to consult the police if your swimsuit is the right type of bikini, can't cover too much you know). And if you can make yourself look like a white woman (slim and boob-perfect preferably) in the process, then excellent because otherwise you might experience a slight case of racism and bodyshaming (but you can't do anything about misogyny, it comes automatically with being a woman, but we need women for certain biological tasks so we can't help you change in that regard).

 

[boiled goose]

Wait people are trying to use ski masks in the cold as a strawman

Theyre called ski masks

You use them when skiing

Ive never seem a person just where a ski mask whilst walking when its cold. Thats just weird and suspicious.

I see women covering their faces in the middle of winter all the time with a scarf or with a hat with a pull dowm mask. Especially when running or biking.

 

[Kralamoonard]

Women choosing to wear what they want: oppression.
State deciding for them: liberation.

I mean, stop pretending it's a security issue while bringing "oppressive husbands" around. It's clearly (at least in France) an ideological move targeting muslims. It's a move against choice and auto determination. If a husband is forcing her wife to wear something, it's already outlawed.

You mean to say France isn't the champion of separation of church and state with their uber secular attitude against religion but rather further oppressing minorities that they had previously colonised for decades?

The funny thing is we all know where that leads.

 

[MrToughPants]

Muslim men should be forced to wear niqabs.

It's the only fair outcome to this.

 

[boiled goose]

Muslim men should be forced to wear niqabs.

It's the only fair outcome to this.

That's a very bigoted and prejudiced comment.

What's the test for Muslim ness?

 

[I-hate-u]

They are aiding and abetting the oppression of muslim women in Europe and elsewhere.

But thankfully the European Court of Human Rights have made the right decision.

Nope, look down.

Fuck them. And fuck everyone who's alright with it.

I guess 'Freedom of choice' and "Fight against oppression' has finally come with the asterisk 'so long it's in line with the eurocentric view that the global society should look like us. If they go against our ideal, fuck them and we don't care what happens to them. la la la WE DO CARE ABOUT WOMEN yeah'

I have personal account of being discriminated against and insulted because of my choice to wear the niqab. My mother was imprisoned back in her home country because she chose to wear the hijab, not even the niqab. I know a friend who was beaten up by her father because she chose to wear the niqab, and no one helped her because 'she was the one in the wrong'. Here, in UK. There's a lot of violence against the women in muslim communities because the men dictate how they should dress. If they want them to dress less, they should dress less. If they want them to dress more, they should dress more. And in neither cases should the women have a say in the matter. And guess what the white man (and woman, let's be fair, they're part of the problem too) these muslim men want to appease want?

And now that the court of HUMAN RIGHTS has given the ok to further bully these women, those who wore it because of personal reasons will rather stay at home than be part of the society, and those who were forced to do it will now be told to stay home by their fucktards patriarchs. And before you say why don't they tell the police, no the authorities don't care what these poor women go through. Someone I know went through violent domestic abuse (and she doesn't wear the niqab, by the way) and every single time she went to the authorities she was sent back to her abuser. She escaped to another country when she had four children and couldn't handle it anymore. I don't know whether her abuser followed her. To this day, she suffers from severe mental illnesses.

But you know, they're muslim women. At the end of the day they don't matter, let's make some more rules that work against them.

 

[Kralamoonard]

Muslim men should be forced to wear niqabs.

It's the only fair outcome to this.

Yes impeccable logic. Men should also be forced to wear bikini's on the beach next time /s

You're writing this because you are completely misinformed to the reason why women chose to cover themselves like this.

I feel a lot of the preconceived notions of this thread would be tackled if people actually went outside and talked to Muslim women rather than super impose on them what they've read from the Fox News...

 

[Nevasleep]

The niqab doesn't really help with integration imo, so good decision for me.

 

[boiled goose]

Women choosing to wear what they want: oppression.
State deciding for them: liberation.

I mean, stop pretending it's a security issue while bringing "oppressive husbands" around. It's clearly (at least in France) an ideological move targeting muslims. It's a move against choice and auto determination. If a husband is forcing her wife to wear something, it's already outlawed.

This. So much.

The niqab doesn't really help with integration imo, so good decision for me.

Speaking other languages in public also hurts integration. Ban that too.

Ethnic food promotes isolation. Ban that too.

 

[Kralamoonard]

The niqab doesn't really help with integration imo, so good decision for me.

Yes because the ban is completely going to help with further integration and produce less disenfranchisement amongst already isolate minoritites who are already targets of opressive laws and attitudes from so called secular governments...

Lol

 

[Audioboxer]

This decision and everyone defending it feels like the biggest self-congratulatory pat on the back "I'm so much better than that oppressive religion and really we're doing Muslim women a favor". Other countries enforcing this dress code doesn't mean we should ban it. That's pretty narrow thinking.

Sure, it's a moral/ethical based decision making, but many decisions can be of that kind in life. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech give a lot of individual rights to citizens, but they do not always mean you can forever do whatever you want whenever you want however you want. Most societies still make legal decisions around behaviour/actions/beliefs/dress-codes, whilst still retaining high levels of individual autonomy/freedom.

There is a multitude of traditions/actions/freedoms that you can carry out in one country, but possibly not another. Earth will continue to be like this till the end of time as societies try to shape, reform and change themselves for the better. Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, at a bare minimum, there ARE genuine social/integration based concerns around anyone going around in society dressed daily and consistently like this. From that starting point, you then have the history of the full-face veil, what it does mean in many countries and how it is routinely forced on women/why women get encouraged to wear it (cover up your filthy and perverted women parts!). It's a lot of thinking to do around a piece of clothing and said thinking happens and gets acted on when societies who once didn't see many full-face veils begin to see them more often.

 

[Kralamoonard]

This decision and everyone defending it feels like the biggest self-congratulatory pat on the back "I'm so much better than that oppressive religion and really we're doing Muslim women a favor". Other countries enforcing this dress code doesn't mean we should ban it. That's pretty narrow thinking.

Nah the need to defend it is actually from people who have talked to Muslim women outside their own 'liberal thinking speakers soapbox' and have a basic understanding of what drives women to wearing this clothing, who don't assume they "it can't be their choice...it just can't!" and realise that his ban only further serves to isolate already disenfranchised communities.

 

[Cyframe]

Come on, we both know that we won't see programs like this being created or receiving extra funding. That would require people concerned over the niqab to actually care about women's rights.

Pretty much.

I'm always disappointed with this type of topic because I don't get a sense of care for the women here. Someone ironically brought up the Black Pete tradition and to the best of my knowledge, there are no laws specifically banning blackface with a punishment of up to 7 days in jail.

From my perspective, this ban is a veneer of social cohesion, because there aren't supports or helping hands here. Out of sight out of mind is the goal of this ban. It doesn't create a sense of comfort for women who are just going to be isolated by this.

 

[MrToughPants]

That's a very bigoted and prejudiced comment.

What's the test for Muslim ness?

I don't give a shit it's a religion.

Have them eat pork.

 

[Breakage]

I am extremely against religion but I'm also against this ban.

The ban is targeted.

Or are all facial coverings banned?

(They should be grateful!) Really? Wow.

But by continuing to allow it we are supporting the idea that it is ok for a woman to cover up to the point where she is unidentifiable every time she is in public life. People don't normally wear full face coverings every time they go out. It is only in very specific circumstances. Even in cold weather, I have never seen anyone here (in London) wear a Balaclava. And I have never seen anyone apart from veiled women wearing a facial covering every single time they are out and about. You look at the countries where the niqab is implemented and you'll see that women don't have a great time there. It is a symbol of oppression regardless of whether women in European countries supposedly "choose" to wear it. How can it be celebrated as an expression of freedom when there are women in our world who to this day are forced to wear it without a choice.

And how on earth can a person integrate with the wider society if they are completely unidentifiable in public?

The only way I can identify the veiled women I occasionally see when out and about is thru the distinctive coats they wear over their burqas. I have walked past them, sat on the bus near them for many months and yet I haven't got a clue what they look like. Isn't there something utterly mad about that? Don't we begin human interaction in the modern world by being able to identify people by their faces? These women are essentially reduced to being walking shadows for the entirety of their public lives (but for some reason men aren't deprived in the same way). Isn't there something sad about that?
It also just draws a lot of unpleasant attention and has the opposite effect of inviting glares rather than discouraging them. It just reminds me of the way a precious ancient artifact would be wrapped up in dark cloth to protect it from the eyes of theives.

 

[His Majesty]

Yes because the ban is completely going to help with further integration....lol

For future generations? Certainly. For the women who are currently wearing a niqab? Most likely, yes.

 

[Previous]

Good. Full face veils are a tool of oppression against women.

 

[boiled goose]

I don't give a shit it's a religion.

Have them eat pork.

What?

Who's "them"?

Force people to eat stuff against their will?

What the fuck is your problem?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I see women covering their faces in the middle of winter all the time with a scarf or with a hat with a pull dowm mask. Especially when running or biking.

Yes, a scarf. Which isnt a mask.

Hats are also not mask.

Pull down masks for running? Lol nope. "Honey im going on my run. Get me my mask.".

"Hey Im going to the store. Its cold outside. Get me my ski mask."

Such a flimsy example. As for Niqabs...there may be women that really believe in wearing them, but the reality is that these are religious pressures that are invisible that are due to being raised in.

For example, if we go by Western New Testament, a man from a household had absolute power over the family, to the point where they could freely beat the wives. Im sure there were women who were ok with that at the time. That doesnt make it ok. And luckily we as society saw that this is wrong.(even though some western pockets still follow this, for the most part its done in the downlow because the majority of society is against it.)

Same with the Niqab. Im sure there are women ok with it. Doesnt make it ok. At this point its the conditioning and pressure put on them, whether ita external or internal.

 

[Kralamoonard]

For future generations? Certainly. For the women who are currently wearing a niqab? Most likely, yes.

Have you even ever talked to a Muslim woman, no less a Niqabi Muslim woman, you know the people who are actually being affected? Because you assuming this whilst ignoring the countless indications that say otherwise is just being wilfully ignorant.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

What?

Who's "them"?

Force people to eat stuff against their will?

What the fuck is your problem?

His pants aren't comfortable

 

[wartama]

I think there's something to be said about our own sensibilities, culture, beliefs and societal norms; about how we respect those in the countries we visit or move to.
Yet when it comes to the reverse, we scream about freedoms we don't get to observe when being a visitor, or immigrant ourselves.

But I also understand in these parts of the world we should be more open and accepting to stuff like this, just because where they come from they may not be, doesn't mean we should.

However I feel if you come from a place that oppresses you with such an item and you move to a place that doesn't, integrate and learn the culture of the place you are going to, because it's rude to cover your face in full where I'm from, religion aside.

To be fair, it's never something that's going to effect me most likely and I've never seen anyone wear one, people wear Hijab's here so at least I can see who I'm talking to, react to facial expressions and not just some voice behind a mask.

But what if we came to Europe precisely because we were persecuted because of our religious expression and when they touted Religious Freedom™ we fully believed it? I'm talking about myself here, but I fully respect a culture if they don't feel comfortable with what I'm wearing, and in cases where I feel the discomfort I try to either be super friendly or minimize the stay. But when there are laws in place saying I can't go to the local market, can't go to uni (where they're super chill around me, I love that place), can't go to the hospital and can't get a job just because of something I CHOSE to wear, and the HUMAN RIGHTS COURT OF ALL THINGS gives the okay? No, I'm not respecting that. It's hypocrisy, discriminatory and not moral at all.

 

[Matt]

Good. Full face veils are a tool of oppression against women.

The best way to liberate people is usually to restrict what they can do.

 

[boiled goose]

Yes, a scarf. Which isnt a mask.

Hats are also not mask.

Pull down masks for running? Lol nope. "Honey im going on my run. Get me my mask.".

"Hey Im going to the store. Its cold outside. Get me my ski mask."

Such a flimsy example. As for Niqabs...there may be women that really believe in wearing them, but the reality is that these are religious pressures that are invisible that are due to being raised in.

For example, if we go by New Testament, a man from a household had absolute power over the family, to the point where they could freely beat the wives. Im sure there were women who were ok with that at the time. That doesnt make it ok.

Same with the Niqab. Im sure there are women ok with it. Doesnt make it ok. At this point its the conditioning and pressure put on them, whether ita external or internal.

I'm not in favor of the veil at all.
Religion is damaging and made up.

I just think the ban is bigoted and irrational and goes against individual liberty.

 

[MrToughPants]

What?

Who's "them"?

Force people to eat stuff against their will?

What the fuck is your problem?

Lol I think this goose was overcooked. Log off for the day.

 

[AntChum]

This. If they actually cares what was happening to women who are forced to wear veils and other head covering then they'd be trying to help them get out of these abusive relationships, not pushing them twords their abusers and taking choice away from women who actually want to wear one.

Regardless of one's opinion on veil bans, we all seem to agree that, ultimately, the problem stems from the husbands. In which case, why does it always seem that discussions on helping the abused wives are anything but that?

Well done all, we've banned the Niqab. "Out of sight, out of mind," as they say.

 

[fantomena]

I just think the ban is bigoted and irrational and goes against individual liberty.

Well the court disagrees with you there.

 

[boiled goose]

Lol I think this goose was overcooked. Log off for the day.

So instead of clarifying or taking back your clearly bigoted comments you change the topic?

Ok.

 

[6.8]

I agree with this decision.