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European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected

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ICKE

Banned
what do you mean with obligatory? what happens if you don't?

It varies. In Belgium the legal sanctions are still in place but I don't believe they are enforced. They used to be when I lived in Brussels, you would get a fine but these days the rules are more symbolic than substantive.
 
43,11% EU global.

Better than most expected, one of the (few) bright sides of the evening so far.
first rise in EP election history

BoghNRLIcAA5Fpd.png:large
 
There are already restrictions in the European treaties where citizens who cannot economically sustain themselves are unable to permanently reside in another member state after a period of 3 months. That seems like it should already satisfy what you've identified as a supposed problem, no?

Laws are only as good as the enforcement, plus said law only covers immigrants from member states.
 

Tnetennba

Member
I'm sorry but the political landscape makes it easier to enact change if we compare the situation to our parents generation but even back then civil rights movements, speaking for womens rights and so on took place.

But you are saying it's too much to ask that people would take a few hours of their day to go through candidates and eventually write a number to a piece of paper?

Those movements you're talking about weren't tied to party politics. It's easier to get people involved with a cause they believe in when a movement is dedicated to a single cause, such as equal rights as you mentioned. Those movements also extend beyond the voting booth, to protests and other forms of action. That's pretty far removed from the issue of people not voting, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here?

I should clarify and say that I voted, and that wasn't at all what I was saying or implying. What I tried to say was that there are numerous reasons why people may not have voted, and that some of these are more legitimate than "I couldn't be bothered". The issue clearly isn't a lack of time, it's more likely a disconnect between the Parliament and the electorate. That's something that, at least in part, it falls upon the Parliament to rectify. There needs to be efforts made to make people aware of what it does and how it benefits them, otherwise this will keep on happening.

I would hope that having actual fascists and racists in the Parliament would motivate people to vote next time, though I'm not exactly convinced.

Laws are only as good as the enforcement, plus said law only covers immigrants from member states.

As far as I'm aware the laws are enforced on a national level as well as they could be, given the other obligations under EU law. Feel free to correct me though. Your second point is correct but given the topic of this thread I'd assume the point of contention was about European immigration, otherwise that's a whole different discussion.
 
Juncker asks for the presidency of the commission.

catturatujm1.png


That's awfully improper considering the polls are still open, but he's probably not wrong. French PS's downfall fucked any chance Schulz had.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
While the EU has unjustly been a scapegoat for many things going wrong, it is also an institution that has absolutely failed at reaching the voter, and to many, it is still a faceless entity with some economic advantages (that are waning). For a democratic institution that is a big problem.

Forcing people to vote on something they don't care about doesn't seem like a good way to solve the issue.
The EU can't really force itself into the populace; that's the work of the national governments, and they sure as fuck HATE to promote the EU.

Having a voting base largely oblivious to the workings of the EU means that local parties can can claim every success in Brussels (read: subsidies) as as their own, yet use the mean, bigoted eurocrats as scapegoats whenever shit goes sideways (see: austerity).

It's a crying shame that people are barely engaging and it shows how uncultured and pigheaded is the average European citizen, but rest assured that the biggest parties have a vested interest in keeping it that way. I am 34 years old and I have yet to see a single campaign from any Spanish administration explaining with clear words what's the purpose of the European Parliament and why it's important to vote.
 
Juncker asks for the presidency of the commission.

catturatujm1.png


That's awfully improper considering the polls are still open, but he's probably not wrong. French PS's downfall fucked any chance Schulz had.

Coalition discussions will be interesting, I don't think it's clear cut. Especially considering it's not set in stone what parties join the EPP or the S&D.
 

Copons

Member
What's this?

Enrico Berlinguer was the secretary of the Italian communist party between 70s and 80s, leading his party to huge numbers (like almost 40%) for a left wing party in a conservative country like Italy.
Together with Aldo Moro, secretary of Christian Democrats, the major party in Italy at the time, he was responsible for the so called "Historic Compromise", a kind of large alliance between all parliament forces toward a fruitful collaboration for a better government and to lower the various social turmoils and violence. This Compromise failed when Aldo Moro was kidnapped and then killed by extreme left terrorists (Brigate Rosse, Red Brigades).
Berlinguer was a leader beloved by pretty much anyone, probably the most important and surely the last one in Italian politics history.

Recently, Beppe Grillo said that M5S is carrying on Berlinguer's political spirit. A thing that doesn't make any sense at all, considering M5S was born pretty much to destroy and replace the current political class with non-politicians, and now that his party is in the parliament, his main course of action is basically to undermine any other proposal just because it comes from the corrupt political class it's fighting. So, like, the complete opposite of the Historic Compromise.

To this, add the fact that a lot of M5S supporters come from fascism, and even a lot of the party itself ideas draw from it (it's not a coincidence Front National or Golden Dawn are somewhat close to M5S).

So hell, it's not that weird that the Democratic Party (current heir of Berlinguer's Communist Party, even if extremely watered down) leader, Matteo Renzi, is kinda angry when Grillo is exploiting Berlinguer's memory to gain left wing votes.
 
The EU can't really force itself into the populace; that's the work of the national governments, and they sure as fuck HATE to promote the EU.

Having a voting base largely oblivious to the workings of the EU means that local parties can can claim every success in Brussels (read: subsidies) as as their own, yet use the mean, bigoted eurocrats as scapegoats whenever shit goes sideways (see: austerity).

This is the main deficit in EP politics.
 
Coalition discussions will be interesting, I don't think it's clear cut. Especially considering it's not set in stone what parties join the EPP or the S&D.

I don't think the current S&D establishment has the balls to go for a centre-left/left/green coalition (even though they probably could).
 
I don't think the current S&D establishment has the balls to go for a left coalition.

At the end of the day I would not be surprised if it ends up with EPP and S&D grand coalition again.No other combination seems to be able to pull the numbers atm. too much on both the left and right fringes.
 

patapuf

Member
Should the political beliefs of a wide variety of people really be cast aside simply because they feel disenfranchised or betrayed by party politics and thus don't vote? In the UK, if we're talking national level for a second, the main parties are viewed by many as different shades of the same colour, which creates a disconnect between them and a significant number of people. Asking those same people to vote in an election for a legal and political body which they feel even more disconnected from, whether due to ignorance, misinformation or another reason, simply isn't going to happen.

There's really no easy solution to this. If the voters don't vote, any of the established parties can claim "the disenfranchised would have voted for us if they weren't fed up with the way we do things". There's no way to account for "political beliefs" if the voters refuse to vote. There's no "default" to fall back to, you can't just select someone that doesn't win an election in a democracy.

In a way, things getting worse will make people care more again. It will also lead to the current establishment loosing influence and making way for fresh blood and ideas. Not that this couldn't be avoided, but if no party can gain the voters trust, big changes are needed.
 

kitch9

Banned
The EU needs a rethink. it appears.

It needs to stick to what it does best, stop making blanket laws for everyone and have an economically tiered immigration system so it looks like they are at least trying to enact some control.
 

Volotaire

Member
It does not help that they put the elections in the middle of the exam season for people in the UK. Students are more likely to vote due to their participation within the wider debate. I mean I don't think there are wider obligations in the summer that affect significant proportions of the voting population.
 
The EU needs a rethink. it appears..

Absolutely, but overall the results are not the disaster they are made out to be.
Sure France is a disaster, Britain probably will be.
The EPP lost many seats, but overall the big groups still have a huge overall pro european majority.
 
Italian exit polls incoming.

Partito Democratico 33%
Movimento 5 Stelle 26,5%
Forza Italia 18%
Lega Nord 6%
Tsipras 4,2%
NCD 4%
 

EmiPrime

Member
The EU can't really force itself into the populace; that's the work of the national governments, and they sure as fuck HATE to promote the EU.

Having a voting base largely oblivious to the workings of the EU means that local parties can can claim every success in Brussels (read: subsidies) as as their own, yet use the mean, bigoted eurocrats as scapegoats whenever shit goes sideways (see: austerity).

It's a crying shame that people are barely engaging and it shows how uncultured and pigheaded is the average European citizen, but rest assured that the biggest parties have a vested interest in keeping it that way. I am 34 years old and I have yet to see a single campaign from any Spanish administration explaining with clear words what's the purpose of the European Parliament and why it's important to vote.

It's the same in the UK; all the election leaflets we got addressed national issues nothing European Parliament related. No wonder few know what the hell this is all about and so many use it as protest vote.

Further proof if ever it was needed that people are too ignorant to vote in an "in/out" referendum.
 

Tnetennba

Member
If that's the UK result then fingers crossed Scotland looks more than a little bit different.

There's really no easy solution to this. If the voters don't vote, any of the established parties can claim "the disenfranchised would have voted for us if they weren't fed up with the way we do things". There's no way to account for "political beliefs" if the voters refuse to vote. There's no "default" to fall back to, you can't just select someone that doesn't win an election in a democracy.

In a way, things getting worse will make people care more again. It will also lead to the current establishment loosing influence and making way for fresh blood and ideas. Not that this couldn't be avoided, but if no party can gain the voters trust, big changes are needed.

I agree, it's a very difficult situation.

I really hope you're right on the second point. As I said earlier in this thread I'd hope that a Parliament full of fascists and racists would serve as a warning for those who chose not to vote this time round that this is what can happen, which in turns serves as motivation to vote. I would love to think that this would lead to a large amount of people taking a much greater interest in European politics in particular, but I'm just not sure that's going to happen.
 

norinrad

Member
The EU can't really force itself into the populace; that's the work of the national governments, and they sure as fuck HATE to promote the EU.

Having a voting base largely oblivious to the workings of the EU means that local parties can can claim every success in Brussels (read: subsidies) as as their own, yet use the mean, bigoted eurocrats as scapegoats whenever shit goes sideways (see: austerity).

It's a crying shame that people are barely engaging and it shows how uncultured and pigheaded is the average European citizen, but rest assured that the biggest parties have a vested interest in keeping it that way. I am 34 years old and I have yet to see a single campaign from any Spanish administration explaining with clear words what's the purpose of the European Parliament and why it's important to vote.

Welcome to the EU. Same here in Holland. Its always the usually EU has brought us a lot, except they cannot tell you what exactly the EU has brought us.
 
Oh yeah, Repubblica page updated and I saw the "La7" as their source.
Oh well, I could deal with it, but I'm kinda sure there's a lot of M5S pranksters telling they voted PD just to screw with polls. :D
and me :'(

Too busy filming themselves in the voting booths.

Greens over Lib Dems in the UK. Lawd
 

ICKE

Banned
o-UKIP-POSTER-JOBS-570.jpg


So time to stop pretending our voters are more rational when compared to US when these sort of messages are gaining traction.
 

cartesian

Member
It's the same in the UK; all the election leaflets we got addressed national issues nothing European Parliament related. No wonder few know what the hell this is all about and so many use it as protest vote.

Further proof if ever it was needed that people are too ignorant to vote in an "in/out" referendum.
That's kind of a good point, actually - I'd never thought of it that way. If only thirty-odd percent of the public are actually engaged enough to vote in EU elections, how can they be trusted to make an informed and rational decision on membership of the EU?

The public think they're entitled to make the big decisions, but they have a terrible track record when it comes to actually doing the required homework. Heck, almost half the country don't even bother turning up for general elections.

Democracy has to come to them, they won't go to it.

I still remember the AV referendum. Years of whinging about a crooked political system and the first sniff of even the most tepid reform is shot down in flames because people believe that expensive vote counting machines will mean less money for flak jackets for soldiers.
 
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