Yeah, giving away my vote to some non-party..
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European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected
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Yeah, giving away my vote to some non-party..
francknara
Banned
Well, I live in France and there are actually a lot of racists here.
They don't recognize it when talking to non-racists but they are really hateful.
The joke is that they don't really know why exactly.
They're like "strangers steal OUR jobs !" and the minute after they're like "strangers come in France and are payed doing nothing, with OUR money!".
So when the time to vote has come they're like "I say no to Europe!", but they don't even know what Europe is exactly, what it would mean to stop being part of it...
It's just an excuse to vote for a party they believe as racist as them.
There are obviously exceptions, but mentalities are that bad around me.
They don't recognize it when talking to non-racists but they are really hateful.
The joke is that they don't really know why exactly.
They're like "strangers steal OUR jobs !" and the minute after they're like "strangers come in France and are payed doing nothing, with OUR money!".
So when the time to vote has come they're like "I say no to Europe!", but they don't even know what Europe is exactly, what it would mean to stop being part of it...
It's just an excuse to vote for a party they believe as racist as them.
There are obviously exceptions, but mentalities are that bad around me.
Sickboy007
Member
How much did the UKIP get last time? Fact is, people have a choice not to elect racist scumfucks. If they do vote for them, maybe they have other reasons as well.
WayneMorse
Banned
Kinda off topic but does Hollande have any hope anymore of actually turning the economy around? Or is he just holding on for dear life until the next election?
ComputerMKII
Banned
I've been against the European Union for a long time because I've understood that it didn't support more openness - it wants to close itself to the rest of the world (so as to 'compete' with the US, Russia and China). The only reason why the borders are open within the EU is that they've erected a huge one around it.
Opening borders can be done with bilateral treaties or, even better, unilaterally. No need for the EU for that.
I think that is the core of the problem, A LOT of people don't really understand what Europe is. Ask the regular UKIP voting shcmo on the street how many years EU elections happen, they wouldn't know. Its 5 by the way
3sixty, they also ate into SNP, Tories, Labour, and a huge amount of LibDems... so you are saying those parties had a racist element as well that were swayed? How are we consolidating those facts all together?
Could also be that turn out for those sections has decreased due to disillusionment, goes for BNP too. Or you would hope that maybe there are less racists now.
I dont think UKIP is a wholey racist party, of course not, but they do have a large Racist/xenophobic base, when you hear their party leader talk about how he doesn't want to live next to Romanians because they're all thieves and criminals. I can't understand how people can defend that.
The EU is far from perfect but UKIP completely ignores any actual solutions and instead pulls on peoples general insecurities about the economy and level of unemployment to push their questionable xenophobic agenda.
Still more then the rest of the 'out' groups combined. As much as it might annoy the left UKIP are the only realistic choice if your primary concern is in/out the EU.
If you throw your lot in with racists, you're not better than actual racists.
It's funny how people anti-EU vote in the European elections thus validating the institutions against they vote. Because there is no other outcome when you vote for a party like UKIP and FN for the European Parliament. You just provided some nice European salaries for some fuckers that won't do anything there, as they don't have any voting power. Because UKIP and FN (and any other right wing party in Europe) won't make anything ever together except for maybe dancing at the inauguration ball on Waterloo by ABBA.
francknara
Banned
Haha he acts like he can still make things better but I think he's just waiting for his life-salary.
After the last municipal elections he was like "Sooooooo you don't like the direction I'm taking ? I will reinforce it.".
Why wouldn't you want the EU to work?
They fight for net neutrality, consumer rights and many other rights that help us, members of the general populace a hell of a lot moreso than our government has done over the past 20 years.
I mean if you want to be America 2.0 then fine, but I'd rather not.
Sickboy007
Member
That's a nice little self fulfilling prophecy you've got there. Especially preposterous while commenting the rise of a party that was considered little more than the power fantasy of a loony a few years ago.
the alternative is giving those seats to pro-EU parties.
Still doesn't make you a racist mind.
I've been thinking where to ask this but it might as well be here now we're on the topic of calling other posters racists without any firm grounding whatsoever.
UKIP are big against immigration, fair enough, but calling them racist isn't correct. Xenophobic no doubt about that, and there are a lot who are proper racists, however I can't help but feel the word racist has lost all meaning after being bandied about incorrectly by everyone who criticises them.
To simplify a complicated issue: I'd rather live in a democracy than a benign dictatorship.
I assumed you would have already seen it, given that it made the rounds a few days ago and you seem to be pretty in-touch with UKIP. If not then there's a part in the interview where he states that he would be concerned if a group of Romanians moved in next door. When pushed on this point, and the difference between them and for instance Germans, he stated something like "you know the difference". Though to be fair you could jump to almost any point in that interview to watch him squirm as an interviewer actually attempts to hold him to task for the actions of his party members, for a change.
You seem to be attempting to derail the argument and scrutiny of UKIP by trying to paint me as a supporter of the other big parties. I'm not. I'm not a big fan at all, but it so happens that my opposition to any sort of bigotry, xenophobia, racism, sexism or homophobia runs quite a bit deeper. I'd agree there's no perfect party, but there are parties which have significantly less of the aforementioned. If you want to act willfully ignorant of that and claim it's just growing pains then go ahead, though you'll have to accept the scrutiny of the rest of us without trying to divert our attention like you just did. That's usually how debate works, to quote yourself.
And you're seriously going to talk about MPs "stealing money" from the country when literally all UKIP do is claim expenses from the European Parliament and never show up?
So to some people that actually work for the salary they get? The salary paid from European funds.
Edit: to clarify my point, you gave your vote for something that is not solved at the EP level.
Work towards the destruction of nation-state democracy? I'd rather they did nothing.
WayneMorse
Banned
LIb Dems actually won a seat!
Realistically I don't think we'll ever get rid of the EU. So the alternative is to shrink it. Maybe I shouldn't have said not to work but rather I don't want the EU to grow even further. By voting for one of the other three parties that's exactly what would happen. A smaller, more democratic EU whose primary function is to serve as a free-trade zone (that's what we originally voted for) rather than a quasi supra government and ever closer union is something I and most people can certainly live with. Right now it's an undemocratic mess with too much power. And a strong vote for UKIP is hopefully a wake up call.
If ANY of the main parties had stood up before the elections and declared 'we realise this matter is important to you here is the black and white in/out referendum' Then UKIP would have lost all the wind from it's sails.
They knew that is what they had to do, but instead all they gave was dithering which EVERYONE knew wouldn't be enough. 'oh well, maybe in the future if maybe.. you know we might be able to argue some powers or maybe some details around then we will see. And if that doesn't happen we may consider a vote. Until then we should really give quiche a chance. If that doesn't work then maybe we will consider what the public we represent may actually want.'
There is only one reason for UKIP's rise: The other parties simply got complacent that they could force there will on an increasingly angry public and they have just got bit for it.
I'm guessing Dan Hannan has been re-elected as well?
WayneMorse
Banned
CLEGG VINDICATED
I can't work out if you're pro EU or anti EU by your posts, but if you're anti EU then I think you're incredibly naive to believe we live in a democracy in the UK. Over half of our government are not even voted in.
ah, so your right-wing idiocy is not confined to australian politics - check.
Yep
WayneMorse
Banned
Yup he's giving his victory speech right now.
I'd say I feel the same, but I can't work out from the BBC map whether where I live counts as South East or East of England which is silly. I've always thought that I live in the South East (I'm on the very southern point of Essex) but the map is weird.
No, you are misinterpreting the point I'm trying to get at with regards to the democratic quality of complex-issue referenda held in a political culture of low turnout and political engagement, but I admit that I didn't make that point very clearly at all, so I'll clarify it in a second.
First, I'd like to respond to these remarks -
This is an insulting misinterpretation of my beliefs. You seem to think that I'm part of some smug anti-democratic pro-EU clique, but you've not read my previous posts. I'm strongly pro-democracy and totally neutral on the EU because I don't feel I understand quite enough about it decide whether it's working in our best interests. Re-read my previous posts:
And although I find UKIP's far-right politics very regrettable, I respect that they speak for a significant portion of the public and I would rather people turn out and vote for them than sit at home doing nothing. In fact, I actually encourage eurosceptics to vote for eurosceptic parties instead of merely abstaining, because these voters send a clear message to the current political establishment and in so doing they reinforce the representative quality of the democratic process.
But I'm very sceptical about referenda, because I feel they hand far too much influence to the media, to extremists, to fear and doubt, and so on. I honestly believe a referendum can compromise the quality of democratic outcomes, because the process is disproportionately skewed by extreme and external elements. This is precisely what I felt happened in the AV referendum. A single issue was turned into a media circus and informed debate was supplanted by fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
EU membership is an incredibly complex issue. The vast majority of the public, approximately two-thirds, aren't engaged enough to vote in the EU elections. Indeed, not far off half don't even feel engaged enough to turn up in general elections either. I think that's a staggering and alarming statistic. If so many people are that deeply switched off and no longer engage with an issue, it's troublesome to then give precisely these people the deciding say on it. If the people can't be bothered to vote in general elections, how is it democratic to hand the remaining minority the full reins over critical policies?
I'm pro-democracy. I'm pro-elections. I'm hugely pro-democratic reform, including the introduction of full proportional representation and indeed I want to see greater experimentation with e-democracy. I want turnout to rise. I want to see democracy thrive again. But I believe I'm not acting unreasonably to be sceptical about single-issue referenda.
There's a serious difference between having an unelected body with little power, and having a similar unelected body with all the power.
The house of lords has no right of initiative. The EU commission has the sole right of initiative.
That's right, the people in the EU parliament have no right to propose legislation. Only the EU commission can propose legislation. How broken is that?
lol.
StealthGoblin
Banned
East of England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_of_England_(European_Parliament_constituency)
Looks like you are East sorry.
Atleast the EU commision seem to care about the general public. The amount of good things they've proposed recently is great.
We should be opening more borders, not closing them off. Humanity is completely doomed due to the hatred and idiocy of itself.
Look here and tell me how the destruction of nation-state democracy will be stopped?
Because you obviously think that this is the role of the EP.
Edit: Even if all the UK MEP would be from UKIP, it wouldn't make too much of a difference.
I hold democracy to be of paramount importance. So if we have a democracy of broken policies, I would prefer it to a non-democratic utopia. (Again in simple terms).
We have different priorities for governance, and that's why we disagree about the EU.
Marc
Member
Again I am curious about whether 'large' is an appropriate term, from my experience racists tend to be people who can't shut up about it. They tend not to be too quiet IMO. So people who aren't racist in that party wouldn't get pointed out obviously, which asks the question of what the basis is on that one. I honestly don't know, I can see that appearances wise that party can't survive if it tries to be racist. Most people don't want it, UKIP have addressed that concern as best they can and are progressing to be a more valid party. I hope they are improving themselves and throwing out that element and it is the minority but I don't know for sure, and I don't see people who claim the opposite as fact offering any proof. By that I mean to show a majority or large amount remain in the party thinking along those lines.
Personally I see an elitism and career politician snobbery from Call me Dave/Ed that can be worse in certain aspects. Its clear they both see immigrants as a cheap source of labour, that businesses want them off the books for below minimum wages doing crap jobs with terrible conditions. Creating something akin to a slave workforce. They have been pressed on this before and said hand waving comments on how its illegal and it should be stopped. As if it isn't their responsibility.
Here is a dossier that Labour came up with back when Tories were the challengers:
You could do one with Labour for other issues, probably some racists/sexists amongst them too. Stupidity exists without borders, political ideals or colour.
So a guy almost dies, you are using that as the opportunity to make those kind of remarks... shame you couldn't get a hospital picture instead. Maybe a grave if you were lucky.
You are so much better than a racist person.
Controlling borders and immigration is not hatred of humanity...
The main difference is Farage.
He is the party leader and regally comes out with these sort of comments.
IdreamofHIME
Member
People voting for UKIP because they feel sorry for them, seriously. Farage goes on show on any channel and they're asking him if he's racist, if his members are racist and nothig about his policies.
Cameron, Clegg and Millibands spin doctors have caused this.
Cameron, Clegg and Millibands spin doctors have caused this.
Sickboy007
Member
Newest italian projections, the lead keeps getting bigger.
Marc
Member
Completely agree with this, voters not turning out should assume a large element want none of the available choices. I would be amongst them, I prefer to vote currently but don't begrudge anyone who doesn't. Everyone I talked to doesn't believe anything changes and can certainly see why they would think that when the main parties are like clones these days. I agree, and won't vote for a main party for the foreseeable future.
There should be a vote of no confidence available that enforces a referendum on the role/type of government available with an independent reserved fund available for any of the elected options. Way more democratic and ensures the people are better represented.
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