rokkerkory
Member
I dont get europe... Indiv countries with indiv governments and yet a common parliament?
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European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected
- Thread starter anonymous_abc
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anonymous_abc
Member
Erm....
Where to begin...
The individual countries have national parliaments too. However lots of transnational legislation is made on the European level and then applies to all member states.
Realistically and simplistically speaking it is not too far off from a federal state system. Not unlike the US with the main difference being that there is no European government.
Just read the Wikipedia article to get a better picture I guess.
anonymous_abc
Member
Back on topic.
Last month the Union of European Federalists looked at the party programs for the 5 big groups in order to determine how pro European they are.
federalists.eu
Sadly the European left is shown for what it really is in that regard.
Last month the Union of European Federalists looked at the party programs for the 5 big groups in order to determine how pro European they are.
federalists.eu
Sadly the European left is shown for what it really is in that regard.
If Germany had won the 2nd world war, there wouldn't be an EU today. The EU as we know it was party of an agreement between France and Germany in 1990. France demanded a shared currency aka the euro in the hopes of keeping the re-unified Germany in check. Ironically that completely backfired on them.
I know the feeling, believe me. Even though we share the same culture to a certain extend, the mindset in the UK is completely different from our own. Their expectations are, as countlessly demonstrated in this thread, completely different from ours. They are about competition, they want their free trade and nothing else, while Europe was founded on cooperation, making lives better for everyone - at least that's how it's supposed to be. But as long as our neo liberal overlords rule the world, it'll be hard to get there.
But the truth is, if they hadn't anything to gain from being an EU member, they'd have left a long time ago - which makes their moaning and bitching even more irritating.
oh come on, no one is bitching and moaning as much as the UK
. typical neo liberal behaviour - restricting all other options and then blame the country for failing while imposing their own rules on them. worked for the last 30 years, and still does.
anonymous_abc
Member
You're joking right? You cannot seriously think the EU is what Europe would have been with a German WWII victory...
Back on topic.
Last month the Union of European Federalists looked at the party programs for the 5 big groups in order to determine how pro European they are.
federalists.eu
Sadly the European left is shown for what it really is in that regard.
Unfortunately, we European left realized that has long as there are so many economical and political differences the EU will never work. The first step to solve a problem is admitting there is one, EU is not working well.
Also those Federalist are quite bias
You're joking right? You cannot seriously think the EU is what Europe would have been with a German WWII victory...
From a fiscal point of view yes, just a lot more subtle.
Vote for the Roman Party
oh come on, no one is bitching and moaning as much as the UK
There's unrest all over the EU, especially from those who kept their own currencies. Most of the larger countries are having to run protectionist immigration policies in a vain attempt to keep overall figures down, and not a lot of Greeks are happy either.
anonymous_abc
Member
Various legislation on banking regulation failed in the EP because different members of the left voted against further regulation. Their argument, the whole capitalist monetary system is evil so we cannot support any measures regarding it. (even if it reigns in their evil power. gtfo...)
No shit, an organisation who's declared goal is a more federal Europe is biased towards federal opinions?
Miles Quaritch
Member
Heh. He's had a pretty bad couple of weeks. Can't say I feel particularly sorry for him though.
They are giving a distorted image of European Left, we are not against the idea of a more united europe, we just think the process is not working the way that has been done, if that deserves a red in almost every category, come on, be a bit more fair.
anonymous_abc
Member
Did you read their arguments?
They gave the greens/EFA a yellow E because they don't explicitly state to want common European defence army. I don't think that makes the yellow E valid, but I can see why they would think so.
This is a really late reply but I never said the only option is crooks. I mentioned the two largest parties that are currently in coaliton who were elcted on a manifesto that they then ignored when elected. The fact of the matter is that Ireland got a really raw deal on the bank debt. The ecb would'nt let us burn senior bondholders so that they could save german and french banks who had too much exposure to the Irish debt of greedy property developers. I'm not anti-EU, absoloulty far from it. I want to be a member of the EU but it needs to work in the interests of its constituents rather than decision making being made by a small cabal of bureaucrats behind closed doors.
I'm not quite sure where you read in my post that I would'nt be voting or that I'm not active. I have been out putting up posters for the party you mentioned ,people before profit and their affiliates. I've been active on the politcal scene for years and I just want to see an EU that is based on solidarity rather than what France and Germany wants.
Yes, did you?
anonymous_abc
Member
We can easily agree on this.
And the general rant was not aimed at you but at the community as a whole.
anonymous_abc
Member
Yes.
Ergo red.
Ergo red.
Ergo red.
Ergo red.
Now I haven't read the left manifesto and I am sure I would find many things in it that I personally would agree with, but I can easily see howthe federalists came to their conclusion.
Cool. Fostering better relations with our neighbours is vitally important to me,especially to piss off parties like UKIP and golden dawn. I can see a dangerous swing to the far right happening now in europe and that always happens in times of economic crisis. Thats why I think the EU needs to reassess its austerity policies because Real GDP hasn't increased at all in any of the pigs countries. People are being pushed into poverty and some into these radical groups. I completely agree with you that we need to be fully engaged and politically aware but unfortunately most of the population in Ireland does'nt give a shit about the European elections,just the local.
Of course it need to change, we need a Euro less valued but the decision making has been not to print more money, that is leading to a deflation that on our conditions of high unemployment will be catastrophic. Also Banking Union defines that when a bank bankrupt the saving of that bank should be made through the money of the deposits, that isn't fair ordinary people shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes of the bank in which they have no power decision making. Fiscal Union can't work when minimal wage in Portugal is 485 and on France for example is 1700, can't simply work, fiscal union can't only when work when the economy of eurozone is more equal between countries.
That part is regarding Lisbon Treaty, that is not working as a integration tool, only succeed in making Germany and Merkel more powerful inside the EU, that has to change. Is unacceptable that my prime minister call on Merkel to Decide what to do in Portugal, her decisions through Troika are killing the economy of my country, she has no concious of how different are our economy but decided through his puppet that we should adopt a german model based on exports(that is working well in the first quarter of the year)
Did we elect troika? nope, so that is it for democracy of European institutions. When you have a country that decides all for the others where is the democracy?
I myself are not against the idea of NATO, but i can't agree with some of their decisions. Schengen agreements dissolution, that is new for me never heard of it inside European Left, as for FRONTEX is not working well just look how out of control the immigration policy is. We have many illegal Immigrants in things that resemble concentration camps, I can't stand by that.
Can't wait until Sunday when Feminist Initiative and Soraya Post will get at least 4%!
Guardian article about it
Guardian article about it
Voting for UKIP in the European elections will not get us out of the EU, only the UK Government can make that decision, not those in European Parliament.
It sickens me that a party so hateful towards Europe is partaking in the European elections, only so they can disrupt the political process. If you want to see Europe make decisions that benefit it's people, vote for a party that will play ball in Europe, not one that criticises the EU for never making decisions and paying fat pay packets to it's MEPs that Mr. Farage gladly accepts.
Vote for UKIP in the General election, by all means, but the Conservatives (and possibly Labour) are also offering a referendum on our EU membership, and they are a safer party, without gimmicks.
A lot of its core members are ex-Conservatives who were too conservative for the Conservatives.
Quite a few of them either publicly or privately harbour ideas of NHS privatisation, abolishing human rights, reducing maternity and paternity entitlements, etc.
Their broader membership is an incoherent mix of opinions all over the political spectrum, united by only by a dislike of the EU. But make no mistake; the core of the party is very right-wing by British standards.
If you're quite right-wing, UKIP are the party for you. If you're left-wing, the Greens also favour a referendum.
The Greens are running a candidate in NI, Ross Brown.
Just their homophobia?
CyclopsRock
Member
I think we've reached a fairly nice end point to our discussion here, really!
I dunno, I miss the old Spanish coins with holes in. It's so natty!
Me too, they shouldn't be concerned about national borders in the parliament, but I also don't think they should be negotiating their own powers. That should be up to national governments - who do and should have vetos - to cede (or attempt to reclaim).
More people would end up with their voice being represented - I think that's pretty important for a democratic institution, especially one spread so widely. Generally, I'm supportive of democratic functions being exercised as locally as possible, as this minimises the number of people having laws passed with which they disagree.
That's not nonsense at all, though. I don't know what else you would call criminalising an employer who asks you to work more than x hours but a restriction of liberty. "Fiddling your timesheet" as a get out isn't really justification for a law that removes freedom between consenting adults or parties.
I wish I had your optimism!
True! I really don't know the result!
What you've just described there is why you think it would be a good idea to legislate that at a European level - not why that's required for free movement of peoples and products.
As it stands, I think that transactional agreements aren't benefited by being in as wider area as possible, unless that "wider area" is "the entire world". As long as there is somewhere else for those transactions to occur, there will just as much instability in the market, only now the EU will have lost a load of jobs and tax revenue. We got pretty fucked up by the actions of those in Wall Street (and London too, that's true). Please take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYye0zZ3fH4 It's George Osborne but give him a few minutes, as he comes across more or less human and states in pretty unequivocal ways the reason why a global transaction tax would be good but a European one would be awful (including the use of the Commission's own figures suggesting the drop in GDP and lowering of jobs that would occur).
Edit: I fixed the word "against" to "in favour of" - a pretty significant typo!!
I love it too, gets even better when you don't need to carry multiple curencies around.
I dunno, I miss the old Spanish coins with holes in. It's so natty!
Me too, they shouldn't be concerned about national borders in the parliament, but I also don't think they should be negotiating their own powers. That should be up to national governments - who do and should have vetos - to cede (or attempt to reclaim).
More people would end up with their voice being represented - I think that's pretty important for a democratic institution, especially one spread so widely. Generally, I'm supportive of democratic functions being exercised as locally as possible, as this minimises the number of people having laws passed with which they disagree.
That's not nonsense at all, though. I don't know what else you would call criminalising an employer who asks you to work more than x hours but a restriction of liberty. "Fiddling your timesheet" as a get out isn't really justification for a law that removes freedom between consenting adults or parties.
I wish I had your optimism!
True! I really don't know the result!
What you've just described there is why you think it would be a good idea to legislate that at a European level - not why that's required for free movement of peoples and products.
As it stands, I think that transactional agreements aren't benefited by being in as wider area as possible, unless that "wider area" is "the entire world". As long as there is somewhere else for those transactions to occur, there will just as much instability in the market, only now the EU will have lost a load of jobs and tax revenue. We got pretty fucked up by the actions of those in Wall Street (and London too, that's true). Please take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYye0zZ3fH4 It's George Osborne but give him a few minutes, as he comes across more or less human and states in pretty unequivocal ways the reason why a global transaction tax would be good but a European one would be awful (including the use of the Commission's own figures suggesting the drop in GDP and lowering of jobs that would occur).
Edit: I fixed the word "against" to "in favour of" - a pretty significant typo!!
Masquerader
Member
Alliance party, you fools! (Only joking, but I do like Alliance)
anonymous_abc
Member
Starwolf_UK
Member
I can't vote for the pirate party here (West midlands) but have the mystery harmony party and several other euroskeptics (including we demand a referendum now *sigh*) to choose from plus the mainstream.
Not sure if lib dem or green. The best I can see either one getting is 1 MEP and if the one I vote for narrowly misses that I'll feel I made the wrong decision. I think Clogg has really blown the formers chances though with his crappy debates with fromage (especially walking into the Putin bait in debate 2). I despise Fromage. The 70% of UK laws are from EU thing is completely wrong and they've been told many times why (a recent more or less goes into this) but still use it because fuck yurop divide and conker make your friends rich. They also said a few years ago they wanted to withdraw all science from European consortium (which are not in control of the EU at all) to turn into a space-X style prize. Maybe that works for a US sized population but not for the UK.
Not sure if lib dem or green. The best I can see either one getting is 1 MEP and if the one I vote for narrowly misses that I'll feel I made the wrong decision. I think Clogg has really blown the formers chances though with his crappy debates with fromage (especially walking into the Putin bait in debate 2). I despise Fromage. The 70% of UK laws are from EU thing is completely wrong and they've been told many times why (a recent more or less goes into this) but still use it because fuck yurop divide and conker make your friends rich. They also said a few years ago they wanted to withdraw all science from European consortium (which are not in control of the EU at all) to turn into a space-X style prize. Maybe that works for a US sized population but not for the UK.
anonymous_abc
Member
In the EP they don't disrupt the process, if they even bother to show up all they do is vote against and talk out of their ass. If anything they diminish UK influence within the EP. So if you want Angela to be more influential in the EP, good job. *rolleyes*
I think Lo is a good candidate. Certainly very socially liberal. Last night on a BBC Euro debate, she was the only candidate (from the 5 established parties + Allister) to openly support LGBT rights and abortion rights.
As for NI21, the party seems to have split last night, after Basil changed the designation of the party without informing the deputy leader. For all the talk of 'fresh politics' they were economically centre right, and want to join the EPP. They weren't going to get my vote, and they were never likely to get a seat.
Greens will be getting my first preference. Left, liberal, anti-fracking, pro-renewables and Brown is a sound candidate.
However, I don't think any of Alliance, Green, or NI21 will get a seat. They'll get single-digit %, and we'll get the same fabulous, inspiring, inclusive politicians we always have. On the BBC Spotlight debate last night, candidates were boasting at how much peace and farming funding they were able to get from the EU, and then saying we need to leave the EU because of wasteful EU spending.
Masquerader
Member
CyclopsRock
Member
After all that, I don't think I can even vote. I haven't registered with the electoral whatever since I moved. I'm still in the same European constituency, but not local government. OOPSIE.
Forsete
Gold Member
People tend to vote a little more "for fun" in the EU vote and more "safe" in the national election. Its almost like they don't take the EU election as seriously as they do the national.
Those of you planning to vote in tomorrow's elections may be interested to know that the European Commission is currently holding a public consultation on the most alarming aspects of the proposed EU-US economic treaty.
For those of you who are unaware, TTIP ("Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership") is a somewhat obscure proposal that has significant implications for every citizen of the United States and the European Union.
TTIP aims to establish a EU-US free trade area, reducing tariffs and harmonising regulations between two of the largest economies on Earth. This alone would make it a historic document. However, to encourage foreign investors, TTIP also significantly increases the power of corporations over national governments:
There is no escape. Even if the treaty is later terminated, Article 17 means that those provisions which entitle corporations to sue governments will remain legally-binding on governments for at least 20 years after TTIP is cancelled:
In the interests of balance, it should be noted that many modern trade agreements include provisions that entitle private firms to seek redress against government discrimination. The European Commissions notes that EU businesses are the most prolific users of such provisions. However, the historic scale of this agreement, and the scope of the provisions included, do make this an extraordinary document. I believe that, in the name of encouraging investment, the pendulum has swung too far in the favour of multinational corporations against democratic governments.
The European Commission's public consultation - launched as a response to the leaking of the draft agreement - offers a rare opportunity for members of the public to have their say in what is usually a very secretive process. The US is not holding a public consultation. The EU public consultation closes in about two weeks.
I would urge every EU citizen reading this thread to consider submitting a brief response to the EU public consultation on TTIP.
You can reply to the public consultation on TTIP here.
For those of you who are unaware, TTIP ("Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership") is a somewhat obscure proposal that has significant implications for every citizen of the United States and the European Union.
TTIP aims to establish a EU-US free trade area, reducing tariffs and harmonising regulations between two of the largest economies on Earth. This alone would make it a historic document. However, to encourage foreign investors, TTIP also significantly increases the power of corporations over national governments:
TTIP potentially amounts to a very significant restriction on the ability of our national governments to regulate markets and provide public ownership of public services, even if there is a clear democratic mandate for doing so. Provisions on "indirect expropriation" will entitle American corporations to "compensation with compound interest" if any EU national government introduces any regulation that significantly reduces their profits.Wikipedia said:
There is no escape. Even if the treaty is later terminated, Article 17 means that those provisions which entitle corporations to sue governments will remain legally-binding on governments for at least 20 years after TTIP is cancelled:
For better or for worse, TTIP will be a game-changer. It is important that it benefits from public scrutiny.Article 17 of leaked TTIP draft said:
In the interests of balance, it should be noted that many modern trade agreements include provisions that entitle private firms to seek redress against government discrimination. The European Commissions notes that EU businesses are the most prolific users of such provisions. However, the historic scale of this agreement, and the scope of the provisions included, do make this an extraordinary document. I believe that, in the name of encouraging investment, the pendulum has swung too far in the favour of multinational corporations against democratic governments.
The European Commission's public consultation - launched as a response to the leaking of the draft agreement - offers a rare opportunity for members of the public to have their say in what is usually a very secretive process. The US is not holding a public consultation. The EU public consultation closes in about two weeks.
I would urge every EU citizen reading this thread to consider submitting a brief response to the EU public consultation on TTIP.
You can reply to the public consultation on TTIP here.
I'm pro United States of Europe so I'll be voting for ALDE ( and Verhofstadt). EU has a lot of problems but the way I see it they'll only get solved by more integration not destroying it. In this globalised world a single small country has nothing to say even the big ones like france, Germany and the UK have less influence than they used to have. But as an united Europe we have a lot more power.
I find it hard to imagine the uk will still be in the eu in 5 years time, the eu is going one way and were going the other, no way we'll be able to stick around without a say in how it's run.
If the eu doesn't want a free trade deal with us well just have to take it on the chin.
Will be voting Conservative because they are the only party with a modicum of common sense.
If the eu doesn't want a free trade deal with us well just have to take it on the chin.
Will be voting Conservative because they are the only party with a modicum of common sense.
gutter_trash
Banned
as a centrist moderate, I agree.
The current EU model does not work.
Either
a) become a Federal Country
or
b) disband the EU and have each country go back being in charge of their own currency.
anonymous_abc
Member
anonymous_abc
Member
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