Evolution-GAF: How would you respond to this?
- Thread starter Atramental
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Snowman Prophet of Doom
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Lkr said:
Well, he says that that's the case, and I'm inclined to agree with him. Heck, it probably wouldn't be too hard for them to create some program which searches for use of school e-mails automatically. I mean, if it did it continuously and they only had to keep track of the problem cases, there would be a relatively small number of people that they were actually keeping tabs on.
I'm not arguing that Dawkins is a lovely and kind individual. I was arguing that I don't see this comment as particularly "strident" or "intolerant". Calling someone stupid for not perceiving a basic scientific truth isn't "intolerant", it's almost definitional. In regards to whether he's doing more harm than good, who knows? I'm not debating that.BocoDragon said:
I was referring to the position that evolution is not true, which has no value. I've certainly considered the position that Dawkins is too angry.BocoDragon said:
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
The OP is in a very tough situation, I'm afraid. If you wanted to debate the facts, then you could easily crush them with the facts. But it's impossible to properly convince one intolerable person that he is being a hypocrite by inveighing against the perceived "intolerance" of others. The entire idea of tolerance is misguided, moreover. If Dawkins is wrong, then "stridency" is the least of his problems. But if he's right, then it is possible to at least see why he would want to inveigh against the delusion of creationists. They sound like the very post-modernists - those who seek tolerance and peace - that they claim to deplore. If you merely judged the professor by his question, then you would think that he just wants respect. But it has nothing to do with respect. He doesn't want his views to just be respected. He wants his views to triumph and prevail. But he won't give Dawkins the same ground. His question, therefore, is just an extension of his persecution complex.
You can try that response, in much kinder words, but I would expect to still catch a lot of flack for it. The worst part of the entire thing is the student parroting something that he/she heard from some religious talking point. They only know these scientists from quotes that are thrown at them. They never actually take the time to understand why and how the scientists reach the conclusions that they do.
You can try that response, in much kinder words, but I would expect to still catch a lot of flack for it. The worst part of the entire thing is the student parroting something that he/she heard from some religious talking point. They only know these scientists from quotes that are thrown at them. They never actually take the time to understand why and how the scientists reach the conclusions that they do.
Don't get into a debate. You won't win, and even if you do you'll just become "that guy" and the professor will have a negative impression of you (assuming he doesn't already).
Unless you don't care about your academic performance, then by all means, challenge him to debate.
Unless you don't care about your academic performance, then by all means, challenge him to debate.
once again, failure. maybe logic isn't one of your strong points.BocoDragon said:
this ones called 'poisoning the well'
did you think i would just allow you to read into the statement like that? sure would make arguing easier if i could write between the lines before reading them.
the validity of evolution or creationism is not in question here, dawkins review is from a position inwhich that debate has already been settled, you cant just wind back the clock and apply the sentence to an environment where the validity of creationism is still under debate. that's horrifyingly out of context.
dawkins thinks creationists are stupid, but having a low opinion of someone does not an ad hom make. ad homs are aguments wherein the insult is the reason why the argument is rejected. in dawkins case, the argument of creationism is rejected for perfectly legitimate reasons and then he voices his low opinions because of those rejections. his insults are motivated by legitimate argumentation, they are not acting in place of an argument.
"The tone of the paragraph is strident and intolerant because Dawkins is sick of dealing with strident, intolerant creationists. He has decided that, as it is impossible to convince these people through things like logic and facts that they are wrong, the least he can do is help make it widely known that what they believe is foolishness in the hope that those who are undecided on the matter will choose science over nonsense. Through the efforts of people like Dawkins, creationism will one day wind up in the same category as the flat Earth or geocentrism."
There you go.
There you go.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I'm just saying that it's not a leigitimate logical argument to criticize the character of those who don't agree with you. It does nothing to prop up the argument for evolution/atheism.Feep said:
And it's not a wise rhetorical style to convince those who don't agree with you. It does nothing to convince those who don't already agree with evolution/athiesm.
But it sells books to the converted. It wins fans among the converted. Some fence-sitters might be convinced.. but those on the other side are likely to tune him out altogether. I'd compare him to what Ann Coulter is to conservatism in many ways (although as an accomplished Scientist and good writer, he does offer far more actual arguments than Coulter does in regard to political theory).
I do think Dawkins offers many actual, logical arguments within his books. Definitely. But they are wrapped in a religious-sneering persona that is all showbusiness, repulsive to many, and not at all conducive to the argument itself.
More to the point of this thread: I think the fact that many bristled at the very idea of criticizing Dawkins' style is a bit disturbing. You can believe in evolution, atheism, and enjoy Dawkins, while pointing out the issues related to his rhetoric. He ain't the Pope and we ain't Catholic. Criticize away.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I find that creationists and fundamentalists are intolerant of evolution in general. If it wasn't Dawkins, then they'd find another statement, and even if was a dry and rather factual-based statement of evolution's veracity, you can still pretty much cut and paste the creationist response. They'll take it and find some affront in it. They'll scoff at the very notion that someone can believe in evolution. It won't be spared from their animus.BocoDragon said:
Second, Dawkins doesn't just do it because he enjoys riling people up. I believe that he is genuinely passionate about his work, and he is frustrated by the stupidity of people. If we accept the fact that there are indeed stupid people in the world, then why not employ the word? That there is emotion and bite behind his statements just means that he's human.
hydragonwarrior
Member
FFS WHY ARE YOU STILL AT THIS HORRIBLE UNIVERSITY??
...OK, that's out of my system now. You've talked about this uni more than once and about how much you disagree with it and a whole lot of other things.
Anyway, since you seem committed to stay in this uni for monetary reasons, just tell the prof what he wants to hear. The sooner you get out of there, get a job, then GTFO out of that state even, the better off you are.
...OK, that's out of my system now. You've talked about this uni more than once and about how much you disagree with it and a whole lot of other things.
Anyway, since you seem committed to stay in this uni for monetary reasons, just tell the prof what he wants to hear. The sooner you get out of there, get a job, then GTFO out of that state even, the better off you are.
speculawyer
Member
Yes . . . you gotta slip "Why we still got monkey?" in there.weekend_warrior said:
Trent Strong
Banned
Is a degree from Bob Jones University a valuable degree to have Altrametal? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really wondering. It seems like most employers in America, unless they're some sort of Christian company, would see that your degree is from Bob Jones and cringe a little. Maybe it doesn't matter if your degree is in something like engineering or computer networking or something I guess.
(shrug) I'm with you, for the most part. Like I said, my argument wasn't really directed at whether Dawkins was helping or hurting by being the way he is, just that this particular comment regarding the book wasn't very provocative and that the question was colored by the professor's own beliefs.BocoDragon said:
Though I will say, you could argue that due to the nature of their beliefs, very few/no Creationists would listen to Dawkins anyway. He probably means to target those who are unsure, and don't believe one side or the other firmly; by belittling the other side, he hopes to lure them over to his. It's not classy, or anything, but maybe it works. (shrug) How can we tell?
Here you go:
"Fuck Creationists and anyone stupid enough to think we were touched by the hand of God. There is no 'God,' we come from monkeys. Meanwhile, fuck this stupid university and it's bullshit arbitrary rules and programming people to be godless heathens that believe 'God' will beam them up, Scotty in a year."
You're welcome.
"Fuck Creationists and anyone stupid enough to think we were touched by the hand of God. There is no 'God,' we come from monkeys. Meanwhile, fuck this stupid university and it's bullshit arbitrary rules and programming people to be godless heathens that believe 'God' will beam them up, Scotty in a year."
You're welcome.
Cat-lasso thinks that evolution is correct.
"If cats weren't supposed to be picked up by their tails then they would have evolved a defense mechanism to drop them off like a lizard. They don't come off until you swing them around over your head like a lasso leading me to think that it is indeed OK to pick them up that way or the whole theory of evolution is wrong."
"If cats weren't supposed to be picked up by their tails then they would have evolved a defense mechanism to drop them off like a lizard. They don't come off until you swing them around over your head like a lasso leading me to think that it is indeed OK to pick them up that way or the whole theory of evolution is wrong."
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's definitely a possibility in the real world setting... Although anecdotally, I know many fence-sitters who have tuned Dawkins out, and would be amenable to a more gracious argument style.Feep said:
But in regard to answering a University question, when the tone of this thread often seems to be "there is no criticisms to be made at all".. well, it smacks of cheerleaderism.
Of course there are legitimate criticisms that can be made, whether you ultimately agree with them or not.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I said on the last page: saying "you people are stupid, no offense intended" doesn't give you a free pass. He's using negative emotionally charged language to provoke a reaction in both his supporters and his detractors. While ignorant might not be inherently negative by its strictest definition, it certainly carries such connotations.Feep said:
mclaren777
Member
Why is the tone of this paragraph so strident, so intolerant?GavinGT said:
There is a clear difference between those who have not seen the material and those who have seen it and rejected it. I would call anyone who does not know what a prime number is "ignorant", and I would call anyone who knows what a prime number is but doesn't think seven is one of them "stupid".The_Technomancer said:
mclaren777
Member
That statement is shamefully ignorant.TheSeks said:
Atramental
Banned
It's the only degree I'm going to be able to get at this point in time. And everyone around me (parents, people who work at local design firms, & my design teachers) keep on saying that they hire graphic design majors from here all the time because they're well disciplined, have an excellent work ethic, and are overall great at what they do.Trent Strong said:
Again, I think employers will be looking at my portfolio and won't care so much where I went to college. Or at least I hope so...
OP, having read a couple of your threads now I'm going to employ some pop psychology to suggest you seem to be making these threads to help find a way out of your overall situation, not just the specific focus of this or previous threads.
It seems obvious you feel trapped, but you lack the courage and perhaps the life skills to change (that isn't an insult).
However, these threads are sprinkled with just enough "suck it up and stick it out" advice that you can justify not changing the status quo, and can avoid the unpleasantness and work that will be involved in liberating yourself from your situation.
Your time is being wasted. You are spending 6 hours a week in church when you are a non believer. You are pursuing a degree at an institution which by all accounts is not respected. You are taking "science" classes which not only have nothing to do with your degree, but are seemingly filled with misinformation. Count up all the hours a week you spend doing stuff you disagree with or don't enjoy or you feel is a waste. Extrapolate it across the next few years. Think about the resulting number.
On top of that both your parents and university seem critical of your beliefs and are trying to get you to conform to beliefs and behaviors you don't agree with. They are even telling you what to think. You might even be surrounded all day, every day, with people you don't enjoy being around.
This is a time in your life where you could be discovering and pursuing your passions, exploring your own thoughts and beliefs, discussing ideas openly with others, expanding your network, and becoming confident in yourself as an individual. You are not doing this. And you yourself are helping other people suppress that personal growth. If you don't make a stand and change now, will you find other excuses in the future to not rock the boat in the future?
Stop wasting your time.
This may be just another voice telling you what to do, but get a job, move out, and transfer schools. It will be hard. Very hard. But it won't be anywhere near as hard as living the rest of your life with no sense of individuality, stunted life skills and a worthless education.
It seems obvious you feel trapped, but you lack the courage and perhaps the life skills to change (that isn't an insult).
However, these threads are sprinkled with just enough "suck it up and stick it out" advice that you can justify not changing the status quo, and can avoid the unpleasantness and work that will be involved in liberating yourself from your situation.
Your time is being wasted. You are spending 6 hours a week in church when you are a non believer. You are pursuing a degree at an institution which by all accounts is not respected. You are taking "science" classes which not only have nothing to do with your degree, but are seemingly filled with misinformation. Count up all the hours a week you spend doing stuff you disagree with or don't enjoy or you feel is a waste. Extrapolate it across the next few years. Think about the resulting number.
On top of that both your parents and university seem critical of your beliefs and are trying to get you to conform to beliefs and behaviors you don't agree with. They are even telling you what to think. You might even be surrounded all day, every day, with people you don't enjoy being around.
This is a time in your life where you could be discovering and pursuing your passions, exploring your own thoughts and beliefs, discussing ideas openly with others, expanding your network, and becoming confident in yourself as an individual. You are not doing this. And you yourself are helping other people suppress that personal growth. If you don't make a stand and change now, will you find other excuses in the future to not rock the boat in the future?
Stop wasting your time.
This may be just another voice telling you what to do, but get a job, move out, and transfer schools. It will be hard. Very hard. But it won't be anywhere near as hard as living the rest of your life with no sense of individuality, stunted life skills and a worthless education.
HurricaneJesus
Member
Your science class will not allow you to support evolution? Jesus Christ I would not last a second there. It is sad that such a place exists.
mclaren777
Member
What does a bone-less, nerve-less deformity like that have to do with this discussion?Raist said:
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Atramental said:
Most of the first part of this is just an excuse. It is not the only degree that you are able to get at this time. As has been suggested before, many people take on student loans and work full time in order to get through college; you could also join the military and get your education covered that way. You are justifying taking the easy way out with a lot of logical loop-de-loops, all the while complaining about how much you dislike your current lot in life.
As for the last part: do you really think that your portfolio is going to be the best that it can possibly be at BJU? Are the professors there really helping your work to look as good as it possibly can, or would you be better served by trying to go somewhere else?
Seriously, if you believe that this is the only way that things can be right now, it's because you're either a child, in terms of maturity, or brainwashed into believing that; either way, I feel sorry for you and hope that you find your way in life.
Raist said:
We came form lower apes, its only proposed theory that those apes evolved from Monkeys since their is no shared missing link Animal between the two and no species showing a clear distinction as too when in geological time such a prosed split could of happened. The closet we have is Saadanius hijazensis, but its much debated
I believe it has been pretty clearly established that apes including humans evolved from Old World Monkeys. These are different to the monkeys we have today, which evolved from them along a different evolutionary branch.methos75 said:
AronRa has a video on it on YouTube titled something like "Turns out we did come from monkeys".
Atramental
Banned
Lkr said:
Again I don't think they really care if I go to a secular or christian university. Also, they know that I'm an atheist but I think they're somewhat in denial.
What they do care about is money and BJU fits their budget. And some how they were convinced that BJU was the best university to get a graphic design degree here in upstate SC...
And what's odd is that my parents never even went to BJU (My parents went to state schools and attended a chiropractic college down here in SC) yet they think it's the bees knees because they're friends with a bunch of people who went there and those people are relatively successful at what they do for a living.
BuddhaRockstar
Member
Can't wait for the threads in a few years-
"Can't get a job with my useless degree, why the fuck didn't you guys warn me?!"
"Can't get a job with my useless degree, why the fuck didn't you guys warn me?!"
Devolution
Member
Mario said:
To be fair he doesn't really need to transfer, unless he keeps whining about this. Graphic Design would mostly be about producing and showing an excellent portfolio. Where he got his degree, and even his grades don't mean shit.
I think he could have a better portfolio if he didn't have to spend a ton of time doing irrelevant things that make him uncomfortable. A different school would let him focus on developing his design ability in a less antagonistic environment.Devolution said:
Also, I need to do more reading on monkeys.
Devolution
Member
Mario said:
If the program provides him with a BFA, he'll have to do liberal arts electives anyway. But yeah at my school the electives are definitely more tailored to learning more about art movements and history to help improve one's perspective and art. No religious crap to speak of, thank god, lul.
Atramental
Banned
If I'm going to transfer I'll have to finish up this semester first because I don't want to lose my scholarship. There's some requirement that says that I have to have a certain amount of credits after finishing the current semester that I'm in.Mario said:
But after I'm finished with this semester I'll try to get a full time job during the summer, student loans, and everything else that I need to get in order to transfer to another college.
Also, I still don't know what is up with my parents and student loans. They think they're bad for some bizarre reason.
Okay, so I'm not terribly screwed after all?Devolution said:
Eteric Rice
Member
Fixed one of them for you.
Devolution
Member
Atramental said:
As long as you can produce a well rounded portfolio that shows how good you are at design you'll be fine. I have to wonder though, how good of an art or design program they have if they're a close minded religious Uni.
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