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[BocoDragon]

No, that was the flight that was supposed to take out the Congress, though they had some really poor planing, in how Congress was out that day. The whole attack was pretty poorly done, I would almost chalk up the fact the twin towers went down as an unfortunate fluke.

There's footage of Bin Laden where he says he was surprised the towers went down. Al Qaida didn't expect that.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I think it's very likely they shot that plane down. It's a "9/11 conspiracy" that I actually find plausible. (but I'm not talking inside job anything so I don't think it belongs in that thread)

They were scrambled in the air, aware of the threat..... and then they waited for the passengers to play hero and sacrifice their lives to take the plane down? Unlikely. The US killing their own civillians would be a can of worms so they just implied the story of heroic self-sacrificing civilian passengers. A much better story.

Obviously no one will ever know, and I certainly don't claim to.

Not to shit up this thread with conspiracy nonsense, but weren't a number of passengers on Flight 93 in contact with their loved ones when they decided to overtake the plane?

 

[coldvein]

pretty sure that kinda talk isn't allowed in this thread.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

No, that was the flight that was supposed to take out the Congress, though they had some really poor planing, in how Congress was out that day. The whole attack was pretty poorly done, I would almost chalk up the fact the twin towers went down as an unfortunate fluke.

3/4 ain't bad

 

[BocoDragon]

Not to shit up this thread with conspiracy nonsense, but weren't a number of passengers on Flight 93 in contact with their loved ones when they decided to overtake the plane?

Yeah they were, and they said they were gonna try to take down the plane. "Let's roll" and all that.

But who knows if they were successful. Under what circumstance would either the terrorists or the passengers steer the plane into the ground? Think about it.

 

[NekoFever]

Anyone else find it a bit strange that we are hearing this 10 years later? What about the discussions that Bush's crew had about whether or not they should order the plane shot down? Why even have those discussions if it wasn't possible to begin with?

Call me crazy/paranoid/whatever but in the back of my mind I'll always suspect that they shot the plane down (and Rummy saying it was shot down didn't help).

The people on the plane were heroes though, no matter what.

It's not new info. I remember hearing that they would have to do something like take out the engines with their jets in the last few years.

 

[kylej]

the men on 93, their actions on that day were certainly heroic. i don't know if i'd call them heroes, but they were definitely badasses.

Who exactly would you call a hero?

 

[Baron Aloha]

Yeah they were, and they said they were gonna try to take down the plane. "Let's roll" and all that.

But who knows if they were successful. Under what circumstance would either the terrorists or the passengers steer the plane into the ground? Think about it.

The official story is that once the passengers started to breach the cockpit the hijackers shook/rolled the plane and made it crash. They'd rather martyr themselves right then and there then be caught/stopped, which I can believe.

 

[coldvein]

Yeah they were, and they said they were gonna try to take down the plane. "Let's roll" and all that.

But who knows if they were successful. Under what circumstance would either the terrorists or the passengers steer the plane into the ground? Think about it.

i can think of one. i'm in the cockpit of an airplane with dead pilots, some arabs with knives, and a scuffle happens. plane = down

 

[gogogow]

Wow, that sounds crazy with those F16's.

Anyway, since it's almost 9/11 I was checking to see how far they were over there at ground zero and only one building, 7 WTC, was finished some years ago. All the others are still gonna take a while.

 

[Drkirby]

There's footage of Bin Laden where he says he was surprised the towers went down. Al Qaida didn't expect that.

Actually thinking about the, the attacks were likely supposed to be far more symbolic then fatal. Attack the major symbols of our economy, government, and military, which would explain why the Capital Building was a target when the congress was not in sessions, and that the twin towers were hit in the morning rather then midday.

 

[way more]

Yeah they were, and they said they were gonna try to take down the plane. "Let's roll" and all that.

But who knows if they were successful. Under what circumstance would either the terrorists or the passengers steer the plane into the ground? Think about it.

Er, steer the plane into the ground? Planes either remain airborne or they land/crash.

Yeah we expected some 70s-style classic terrorism. Fly the plane to asylum in Libya or wherever and ransom the passengers for the release of political prisoners

Yeah, us youngin's forget how common plane hijackings really were.

There was a surge in hijackings of U.S. planes from 1968 to 1972, peaking in 1969. Hijackings became so common that “[a]irliners carried approach plans for the Havana airport and crews were instructed not to resist hijackers. There were also standard diplomatic procedures for obtaining the return of planes and passengers, writes Robert T. Holden of Indiana University.

It took the threat of them crashing into a nuclear reactor before the airline industry bothered with security. You can thank Nixon for pushing them to get that finally done.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Not to shit up this thread with conspiracy nonsense, but weren't a number of passengers on Flight 93 in contact with their loved ones when they decided to overtake the plane?

Yes, with air phones. And the struggle in the cockpit I believe was heard either in the FAA radio or in the blackbox.

 

[BocoDragon]

The official story is that once the passengers started to breach the cockpit the hijackers shook/rolled the plane and made it crash.

That actually does make sense. A couple of box-cutters would eventually be ineffective against 30-40 determined people.... and there's no way you'd risk being detained.

Er, steer the plane into the ground? Planes either remain airborne or they land/crash.

No one abandoned the controls for hours or anything.... It was brought down intentionally.

 

[bananaman1234]

Yeah they were, and they said they were gonna try to take down the plane. "Let's roll" and all that.

But who knows if they were successful. Under what circumstance would either the terrorists or the passengers steer the plane into the ground? Think about it.

According to a reference on wikipedia, the terrorists drove the plane into the ground after it was clear that the passengers would retake the plane.

 

[TheNatural]

I remember reading an article way back then that if there was a flight that could be taken back and landed this was it, because they had a person with flight experience on board, a nurse, and some other type of people. It sucks that it wasn't to be. Imagine if those people could have somehow taken control of the plane over again and landed with terrorists in hand. Definitely would have been the shining light out of 9-11.

 

[Joates]

That's pretty sad. Even if the passengers managed to take the plane over from the hijackers the military would've killed them anyway.

Yeah, assuming for some strange reason they failed to relay the message to ATC or decided to carry out the terrorists mission for them after the fact...

 

[coldvein]

I remember reading an article way back then that if there was a flight that could be taken back and landed this was it, because they had a person with flight experience on board, a nurse, and some other type of people. It sucks that it wasn't to be. Imagine if those people could have somehow taken control of the plane over again and landed with terrorists in hand. Definitely would have been the shining light out of 9-11.

pretty unrealistic.

 

[TheNatural]

pretty unrealistic.

If the pussy terrorists didn't decide to take themselves out by crashing the plane I think it would have happened.

 

[BocoDragon]

pretty unrealistic.

It was probably pretty realistic considering the terrorists crashed the plane without reaching their target.

 

[Joates]

pretty unrealistic.

No more unrealistic than expecting this:

they don't have fighters just sitting on the ground all strapped with missiles ready to go and shit? this is shocking, to me.

edit: incredibly brave people and all that .. but what if we actually needed armed fighter jets like RIGHT NOW? they really have to wait like ten minutes to arm it up? that's wack.

Plus modern airliners can pretty much land themselves or you ATC could talk you through it probably relatively easily.

 

[jamesinclair]

110 bajillion dollars a year on defense and we scramble unarmed jets the one time we need them.

Soviets are smacking themselves in the face right now.

It was all a lie.


Also

The pilots chose their impact spots in order to minimize the debris field on the ground. A plane with no nose and no tail would likely fall straight out of the sky, its forward momentum halted, Penney said.

Um, I dont think thats how physics works....

 

[Cat Party]

"I'll ram the cockpit."

Goddamn bad assery is what that is.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

The official story is that once the passengers started to breach the cockpit the hijackers shook/rolled the plane and made it crash. They'd rather martyr themselves right then and there then be caught/stopped, which I can believe.

Who knows, they were trying to go up and down in parabolas to stop the passengers from getting in, and I doubt they were good enough pilots to get out of that maneuver.

 

[DrForester]

pretty unrealistic.

Not really. If they could have gotten the terrorists subdued, there is a semi-realistic chance that the passengers could have landed the plane given how automated things are.

 

[Joates]

Soviets are smacking themselves in the face right now.

It was all a lie.


Also



Um, I dont think thats how physics works....

Drag on a plane without a tail or nose section can be quite insane.

 

[coldvein]

i'm not trying to say that effort wasn't made to get the plane down safely. i'm just saying.. steering a plane is probably harder than steering a car, and on several occasions i've taken my eyes off the road to reach down and pick up a lighter or a soda off the floor, and SWERVE for a second. without people with knives fighting in the front seat of my car.

 

[NekoFever]

Who knows, they were trying to go up and down in parabolas to stop the passengers from getting in, and I doubt they were good enough pilots to get out of that maneuver.

The transcript from the cockpit voice recorder is public and it's got the hijackers talking about crashing the plane when the passengers reach the cockpit. This part follows them talking about holding the door closed:

"Is that it? Shall we finish it off?"

"No. Not yet."

"When they all come, we finish it off."

 

[coldvein]

Not really. If they could have gotten the terrorists subdued, there is a semi-realistic chance that the passengers could have landed the plane given how automated things are.

again, i think that's unrealistic. "getting the terrorists subdued"? have you ever been in a fight? have you ever been in a fight against somebody who has a blade in their hand in an enclosed space? me neither, but i don't see it going down very smoothly. for all we know one of the terrorists got pushed back, his ass hit the steering mechanism, and that wrecked the plane.

 

[DrForester]

i'm not trying to say that effort wasn't made to get the plane down safely. i'm just saying.. steering a plane is probably harder than steering a car, and on several occasions i've taken my eyes off the road to reach down and pick up a lighter or a soda off the floor, and SWERVE for a second. without people with knives fighting in the front seat of my car.

Flying a plane, even a big one is very easy, and anyone who's ever played any type of video game could fly a plane. It's landing, and strange maneuvering that would be tricky. Given that the plane was in a weird configuration, they might not have been able to get the plane level even if they had control. It really all depends on if/when they would have gotten control. How high they were, etc.

 

[toxicgonzo]

It would seem pretty hard to ram the plane and eject at the same time.

Either the jet has to be going fast enough that it's guaranteed to hit, leaving no time to eject.
Or the jet would be going slow enough to allow an ejection but not guarantee a chance to hit.

 

[Lucky Forward]

More from the Washington Post:

F-16 pilot was ready to give her life on Sept. 11

For years, [Lt. Heather “Lucky”] Penney, one of the first generation of female combat pilots in the country, gave no interviews about her experiences on Sept. 11 (which included, eventually, escorting Air Force One back into Washington’s suddenly highly restricted airspace).

But 10 years later, she is reflecting on one of the lesser-told tales of that endlessly examined morning: how the first counterpunch the U.S. military prepared to throw at the attackers was effectively a suicide mission.

“We had to protect the airspace any way we could,” she said last week in her office at Lockheed Martin, where she is a director in the F-35 program.

Penney had never scrambled a jet before. Normally the pre-flight is a half-hour or so of methodical checks. She automatically started going down the list.

“Lucky, what are you doing? Get your butt up there and let’s go!” Sasseville shouted.

She climbed in, rushed to power up the engines, screamed for her ground crew to pull the chocks. The crew chief still had his headphones plugged into the fuselage as she nudged the throttle forward. He ran along pulling safety pins from the jet as it moved forward.

She muttered a fighter pilot’s prayer — “God, don’t let me [expletive] up” — and followed Sasse­ville into the sky.

Cool nickname.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

The transcript from the cockpit voice recorder is public and it's got the hijackers talking about crashing the plane when the passengers reach the cockpit. This part follows them talking about holding the door closed:

Ah, ok. I thought they were just trying to prevent them from getting in.

It would seem pretty hard to ram the plane and eject at the same time.

Either the jet has to be going fast enough that it's guaranteed to hit, leaving no time to eject.
Or the jet would be going slow enough to allow an ejection but not guarantee a chance to eject.

Oh, she admits it was a suicide mission. She could do it if she came in from behind.

 

[Archer]

Cheney orders 93 shot down. What were they going to shoot down the plane with? Spitballs?

The order given by Cheney was never received by the fighter pilots, and, in the end, it came too late to interrupt the assault.

 

[Cat Party]

Ejecting would be possible after colliding if you, say, went for the tail and knocked it off. Your plane would almost certainly lose control, but I doubt it would explode or break up instantly. Ramming the fuselage though would be the end of it.

EDIT:

Cheney orders 93 shot down. What were they going to shoot down the plane with? Spitballs?

Well, they may not have known the aircraft were lacking in weapons when they gave the order. Also, they did apparently have a small amount of ammunition on board.

 

[MC Safety]

To be fair, the US hasn't had to deal with a direct invasion on the mainland in a very long time. War of 1812 the last time, maybe? Of course there is Pearl Harbor, but that was a territory and not on the mainland.

Probably higher risk to have the bombs constantly on the planes compared to the actual benefit you would get from doing that.

Pancho Villa invaded in the early 20th century.

 

[Muffdraul]

Pancho Villa invaded in the early 20th century.

I believe the US military has been pretty well prepared for an invasion of an army riding burros ever since then.

 

[Kinyou]

On the topic of 9/11, is there a general theory(or fact) as to how the terrorists actually hijacked the plane? I was too young to remember any of the initial coverage for the first few years.

Some wear a bomb west though I don't know if those were just mockups or real. And yes most likely they stapped their way through to the cockpit though there's also the assumption that some of them got into the cockpit by telling the pilots that they were pilots themselves, but still in training, and wanted to know how this type of plane handles.

 

[Escalation]

That is a hell of a story. I can't imagine being in that position and then on top of everything else having to take the plane down with a collision like that over the US.

 

[JennyTablina]

Not to shit up this thread with conspiracy nonsense, but weren't a number of passengers on Flight 93 in contact with their loved ones when they decided to overtake the plane?

Theres also a transcript from the cockpit voice recorder recovered from United 93 (canf find original link but heres the Wikimedia transcript) . The audio suggests that the hijackers were taken by surprise with the Passengers trying to ram into the Cockpit - try to roll the plane to stop the revolt, and then crash the plane when they realize they can't stop them.

IMO it makes absolute sense to me, I'm sure if there had been no other option, then they would of taken down the plane, but the passengers forced their captors hand before that was even an option. Unlike the people on the other flights, those on 93 seemed to have enough time, alongside calls to friends and family, to realize what was going on, or what might happen. They stopped being scared and confused, and realized that they had to do something - regardless if they survived or not.

 

[Rubenov]

110 bajillion dollars a year on defense and we scramble unarmed jets the one time we need them.

It was not conceivable that something like that could happen before 9/11. And, with the Atlantic and Pacific ocean to our sides, it would be hours before an enemy country would get close enough to do damage to the US, which would have been plenty of time to arm jets.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It was not conceivable that something like that could happen before 9/11. And, with the Atlantic and Pacific ocean to our sides, it would be hours before an enemy country would get close enough to do damage to the US, which would have been plenty of time to arm jets.

Truthfully something like this was the likeliest thing to happen.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

 

[Leunam]

Something commonly forgotten or omitted during the topic of these hijackings is that the terrorists also claimed they had bombs.

Not to shit up this thread with conspiracy nonsense, but weren't a number of passengers on Flight 93 in contact with their loved ones when they decided to overtake the plane?

Yes, for brief periods of time. Calls were made from cell phones on the plane but it's so difficult to maintain a signal that calls were dropping often.

 

[victreeb3l]

the amount of money we all spend on national defense, we should have auto-training destructo lasers cutting any possible air threats into pieces.

seriously

 

[KevinCow]

Actually thinking about the, the attacks were likely supposed to be far more symbolic then fatal. Attack the major symbols of our economy, government, and military, which would explain why the Capital Building was a target when the congress was not in sessions, and that the twin towers were hit in the morning rather then midday.

Man. When you put it that way, and then look at the state of our economy, government, and military today, it sure seems like the terrorists accomplished their goals.

 

[bill0527]

What was the point of having jets 'on standby' around DC if they are unarmed?

I came to post this.

This sobering tale is kind of covering up this major blunder.

What good is spending billions on defense if we can't get armed aircraft up over the capital within minutes?

Jesus what a major blunder. Good thing it wasn't a full blown invasion. Please tell me they've fixed this fuck-up.

 

[YoungHav]

Questions:

what was the last airplane hijacking before 9/11?

How is it known that some of the hijackers did not know it was a suicide mission?

How do you get box cutters on a plane? Weren't there metal detectors?

 

[LQX]

Questions:

what was the last airplane hijacking before 9/11?

How is it known that some of the hijackers did not know it was a suicide mission?

How do you get box cutters on a plane? Weren't there metal detectors?

There is a huge conspiracy thread, I think it will give you the answers you want.

 

[Dan]

Cheney orders 93 shot down. What were they going to shoot down the plane with? Spitballs?

Wait, the fighters never got the order? I don't recall ever hearing that detail. And the jets weren't even armed?

I guess that scraps my suspicion that we actually shot it down. I recall it being really suspect that Cheney ordered it shot down and then, as I recall, it took an hour or two to figure out how Flight 93 was ultimately taken down.

 

[jamesinclair]

Questions:

what was the last airplane hijacking before 9/11?

How is it known that some of the hijackers did not know it was a suicide mission?

How do you get box cutters on a plane? Weren't there metal detectors?

Hijacking was extremely common in the 70s into the 80s. Like running into traffic on the freeway, just something you deal with. Minor detour to Cuba? Call the boss, youre going to miss some work.

Box cutters were allowed on planes, as were swiss army knives etc.