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[RokkanStoned]

The self defense argument is moot completely for me. As a European, I have seen a society that can live without guns to defend themselves. The amount of deaths related to violence are significanty lower than in the USA. The correlation is really simple to grasp. No guns = less violence. There's no arguing the numbers. They are there. They don't lie. So, take away the guns. I'm talking about the principle, not the execution.

If Americans can't do that, if that won't work in America, then it is their own fault, not that the rules don't work. They do. Simple as that.

Hunting you can do at a club. Where they have lockers, for the guns. Here we have those clubs. They have lockers. You don't take the gun home with you. They are some of the most regulated places in the country. Get to the club, get the gun, shoot game, get back, put away the gun. Simple.

Yes you can get the gun and still shoot someone. Is that a possibility? Yes. What do the numbers say? Enough.

If you're European, then you should be aware of your own blind zone on the issue. I'm also European and here you indeed get to take your gun home with you, though it's just for hunting.
Americans can just as easily shrug away "universal healthcare" and point to their society also surviving without those concerns. Heck, you'll find examples like societies functioning without a freedom of speech, without a lot of things. That's not an argument in itself.
If you're European then I assume that you, like me, live safely under the umbrella of the US's superior military might. That's why I also dislike the kind of haughty attitude my fellow Europeans take to America, just as I dislike the haughty attitude Americans take to Europe and our values.

 

[DS_Joost]

Yeah something people don't understand is just how big and wild the US still is. In Texas for example they have a real problem with wild hogs which can be dangerous so if you have land that you want to work out there, you'll want a gun to protect yourself if not to intentionally go out and cull their numbers. You can have some different gun laws for residential areas, though all over Texas rural and residential blur quite a bit.

My main thing is a sort of political game theory. Laws are pretty ineffective as activism and rather do a much better job upholding values that society already has. Until pro-gun people shift their mindset, I wouldn't want to push any hardcore anti-gun legislation because it could start Civil War 2.

I get you completely. That's why I said principle, not execution. I know the execution isn't simple. But the principle is for me. The numbers tell me you have to be absolutely insane to go against them. The difference in deaths related to violence is of such a magnitude that I cannot understand anyone being pro-gun. The fact that it will cause Civil War 2 (which it undoubtly will) is so alien to me that I simply cannot grasp it.

 

[Punished Miku]

I mean, pretend the guys are attractive and have their clothes on.

From what I can tell, the older guy with the handgun was fine. He was trying to tell the guy to leave, he didn't point the gun at the guy. He shot when he was attacked. The other guy was repeatedly threatening to kill him.

The son in the back though, probably deserves some prison time honestly. He wasn't attacked and the handgun alone would have neutralized the threat. There was no reason to shoot the guy again with a shotgun. It's not clear if he was on the ground at that point too.

The older guy could have made even more effort to de-escalate, and walked away himself and called the police. But he didn't really murder the guy until he was attacked. I'm also curious how many times he shot his handgun, as that is a difference between self-defense and execution.

The guy in the orange shirt is a complete and total dumbass, and did literally everything wrong.

 

[DS_Joost]

If you're European, then you should be aware of your own blind zone on the issue. I'm also European and here you indeed get to take your gun home with you, though it's just for hunting.
Americans can just as easily shrug away "universal healthcare" and point to their society also surviving without those concerns. Heck, you'll find examples like societies functioning without a freedom of speech, without a lot of things. That's not an argument in itself.
If you're European then I assume that you, like me, live safely under the umbrella of the US's superior military might. That's why I also dislike the kind of haughty attitude my fellow Europeans take to America, just as I dislike the haughty attitude Americans take to Europe and our values.

My thing is that the numbers speak volumes about the correlation between guns and deaths related to violence. So much so that I can not understand people still defending gun laws. I get there is leeway here and there, but on the overall, I really cannot understand it. Truly not.

 

[ILLtown]

What a complete waste of a life. Idiotic doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

[JoeDanny]

The self defense argument is moot completely for me. As a European, I have seen a society that can live without guns to defend themselves. The amount of deaths related to violence are significanty lower than in the USA. The correlation is really simple to grasp. No guns = less violence. There's no arguing the numbers. They are there. They don't lie. So, take away the guns. I'm talking about the principle, not the execution.

If Americans can't do that, if that won't work in America, then it is their own fault, not that the rules don't work. They do. Simple as that.

Hunting you can do at a club. Where they have lockers, for the guns. Here we have those clubs. They have lockers. You don't take the gun home with you. They are some of the most regulated places in the country. Get to the club, get the gun, shoot game, get back, put away the gun. Simple.

Yes you can get the gun and still shoot someone. Is that a possibility? Yes. What do the numbers say? Enough.

The problem is you can't easily fundamentally change a society that has gun ownership so entrenched in its roots such as the US. There will never be a taking away of the guns. Ever. Kicking and screaming for the guns to go away is not going to fix the problem. It needs to addressed at an individual level - educating people on gun ownership, gun safety, etiquette, all that. Unfortunately there seems to be little effort by US governments across the different states and by the federal government to combat the issue on guns the only viable way - educating the masses and doing away with the culture of arming oneself for walking down the street or arguing with your neighbor. Citing 'numbers' from other countries with different societal precedents means nothing when it comes to addressing the issue.

 

[DS_Joost]

The problem is you can't easily fundamentally change a society that has gun ownership so entrenched in its roots such as the US. There will never be a taking away of the guns. Ever. Kicking and screaming for the guns to go away is not going to fix the problem. It needs to addressed at an individual level - educating people on gun ownership, gun safety, etiquette, all that. Unfortunately there seems to be little effort by US governments across the different states and by the federal government to combat the issue on guns the only viable way - educating the masses and doing away with the culture of arming oneself for walking down the street or arguing with your neighbor. Citing 'numbers' from other countries with different societal precedents means nothing when it comes to addressing the issue.

Edit: It was stupidly written. Ignore this message.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What context? Three batshit insane people who shouldn't have had weapons in the first place? Because that's the context for me. The fact that people have guns in their home, people like this. I don't trust anyone with a gun by the way. Ever.

The lesson my wife has learned is that Americans have a long way to go still. Control your fucking weapons, and get them out of the hands of ordinary people, is what she says, and has said her whole life.

Context matters, because you are using this instance with an "appeal to emotion" with you wife. Context matters because your wife has a better chance of getting hit by a drunk driver than this example you used to paint a broad brush fueled by your emotions at the moment.

If she is rolling with some white hillbillies that argue over dumping their trash (which I am sure since they are neighbors this has been brewing probably for years), then you have bigger problems on your hands.

With all the people and interactions each and every day, I can bet the farm that she would never have or ever will run into a yeehaw "family feud"!

 

[RokkanStoned]

My thing is that the numbers speak volumes about the correlation between guns and deaths related to violence. So much so that I can not understand people still defending gun laws. I get there is leeway here and there, but on the overall, I really cannot understand it. Truly not.

Correlation doesn't equal causation. And even if it does, that doesn't mean that a right should be abolished, otherwise the same principle should be held to our other rights. There's also somehow the removal of personal responsibility and trying to control things from the aggregate, in which you can easily argue the correlation between eating unhealthy food and early deaths and waste of healthcare expenses and lines causing more people to die. We don't ration everyone's food because of it, because we consider personal responsibility and autonomy.
The 2nd Amendment in entrenched in the idea of America and if Americans don't vote for it to be amended, then if you believe in a civil society, then it's something you'll have to accept. That's why I always feel like breaking incidents like these into a gun debate seem pointless. It always turn into the same "I can't believe you believe that", whether from a pro-gun or an anti-gun advocate.

 

[Punished Miku]

I wouldn't want to push any hardcore anti-gun legislation because it could start Civil War 2.

It would not, in any way, start Civil War 2. People are too lazy to even vote.

Maybe a few hundred people would become domestic terrorists, and they'd get taken down by the total and complete firepower / information superiority of the modern day state.

If you think people have the energy or the will to quit their jobs and start fighting a war today when most people are too obese to even qualify to join the military, you are wrong in my opinion. Times have changed, and everyone is far, far too comfortable.

 

[Papa]

I'm sorry Americans. I'm fucking sorry but if I hear anyone defending gun rights anymore they go straight into the batshit crazy pile for me. There is no way you can convince me about this anymore. At all.

Guns for self defence my ass. The only defending people need is from themselves...

The gun rights argument is less about personal self defence (though it is definitely part of it) and more about defense from a tyrannical government. The belief is that a totalitarian state cannot develop if the populace is armed and the benefit of this outweighs the cost of incidents like this.

I don’t necessarily swing that way but just laying out the argument as I see it since it seemed to be missed in your post.

 

[Papa]

Good luck not getting your head caved in while some fat hillbilly has a bat and is threatening to kill you.


Honestly nobody cares. Worry about your own country. You're just as bad as those people who try and make an entire race look bad just for one incident.

The guy wasn’t fat but looked around 6’4, strong, and angry as a Rottweiler.

 

[Papa]

The guy in the orange shirt should have just walked away. There was absolutely no reason to get that angry over something so petty. But it seems he just could not give up the "tough guy" act in front of his wife – even though he knew he was at an extreme disadvantage against two armed guys. He was literally taunting them to shoot him.

If he sucked it up and just walked away, his wife would still have a husband.
If anything, the video demonstrates how easily life can end in an instant.

Testosterone and an underdeveloped pre-frontal cortex is a hell of a combination.

 

[JoeDanny]

You could abolish slavery so...

An incredible feat. However we didn't have 300 million+ slaves nor an amendment guaranteeing slave ownership.

 

[DS_Joost]

The problem is you can't easily fundamentally change a society that has gun ownership so entrenched in its roots such as the US. There will never be a taking away of the guns. Ever. Kicking and screaming for the guns to go away is not going to fix the problem. It needs to addressed at an individual level - educating people on gun ownership, gun safety, etiquette, all that. Unfortunately there seems to be little effort by US governments across the different states and by the federal government to combat the issue on guns the only viable way - educating the masses and doing away with the culture of arming oneself for walking down the street or arguing with your neighbor. Citing 'numbers' from other countries with different societal precedents means nothing when it comes to addressing the issue.

Like, I completely get it. That's why I said the principle and not the execution. Of course the execution is difficult. But why not cite the numbers? When you educate children, arm them with examples where it does work. It is vital in getting across the correlation between guns and death. I really don't get why citing numbers always devolves into 'yeah but they are not us so that doesn't work'. Even if the cultures are different, the numbers just show a proves statistic. It literally just says that guns result in more deaths. Regardless of culture or history.

 

[brap]

I would. But I would ask myself why anyone would have a weapon at home anyway. Have one? Been nice knowing ya. Get that shit away from me. I want nothing to do with anyone having a gun at home. Anyone. Don't fucking care what the excuse might be. You have one at home I instantly distrust you and I will instantly block you from my life. So would my wife.

Because I'm gonna blow the head off of somebody breaking in my house. When somebody breaks into keyboard fantasy world and steals your shit then rapes your wife in front of you while you sob in the corner I'll be defending myself because I'm not an idiot.

The guy wasn’t fat but looked around 6’4, strong, and angry as a Rottweiler.

Looked builtfat to me but whatever lol.

 

[DS_Joost]

Because I'm gonna blow the head off of somebody breaking in my house. When somebody breaks into keyboard fantasy world and steals your shit then rapes your wife in front of you while you sob in the corner I'll be defending myself because I'm not an idiot.

I get your emotion about it, but look at the facts. The fact remains that guns in the USA kill more people than they save. It is literally being more detrimental rather than a help. It doesn't make you more able to defend yourself, it gets you more liable to get killed.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Because I'm gonna blow the head off of somebody breaking in my house. When somebody breaks into keyboard fantasy world and steals your shit then rapes your wife in front of you while you sob in the corner I'll be defending myself because I'm not an idiot.


Looked builtfat to me but whatever lol.

6'4" log tossing, farm working builtfat can still rip your arms out of socket, lol. But I get what you mean.

His hands were probably like a catchers mitt.

 

[nani17]

AMERICA in a nutshell. "No, we don't have a problem with guns at all"

Yeah and alcohol isn't a problem in Ireland nope not true at all

 

[Papa]

My thing is that the numbers speak volumes about the correlation between guns and deaths related to violence. So much so that I can not understand people still defending gun laws. I get there is leeway here and there, but on the overall, I really cannot understand it. Truly not.

Take Chicago, etc. out of the picture and the numbers decrease significantly. There are significant socioeconomic and cultural factors that contribute to gun crime statistics. The US is a big place with many different subcultures so it’s a bit misleading to look just at total statistics as there are vast differences from state to state.

 

[DS_Joost]

Take Chicago, etc. out of the picture and the numbers decrease significantly. There are significant socioeconomic and cultural factors that contribute to gun crime statistics. The US is a big place with many different subcultures so it’s a bit misleading to look just at total statistics as there are vast differences from state to state.

Okay, I don't want to sound dumb but... how does guns being lethal have to do with culture? And even a violent culture can do a lot less damage with a knife than a gun, right?

 

[DeepEnigma]

AMERICA in a nutshell. "No, we don't have a problem with guns at all"

Yeah and alcohol isn't a problem in Ireland nope not true at all

Is this really your best argument you want to bring to the table?

 

[Papa]

Because I'm gonna blow the head off of somebody breaking in my house. When somebody breaks into keyboard fantasy world and steals your shit then rapes your wife in front of you while you sob in the corner I'll be defending myself because I'm not an idiot.


Looked builtfat to me but whatever lol.

Yeah, it’s very easy to criticise the gun culture from the comfort of somewhere like Australia or Scandinavia but the environments are totally different. If I were a white person living in South Africa, for example, you bet your life I would want a gun in my house.

 

[nani17]

Is this really your best argument you want to bring to the table?

A statement, not an argument.

 

[DeepEnigma]

A statement, not an argument.

Good job!

 

[Weiji]

I get the problem. the guy they shot wasn't in the right either with the baseball bat and all, but they go out to negotiate this shit with GUNS. They could've walked away. Call the cops. Or maybe, maybe don't GO OUT WITH FUCKING GUNS. These people MURDER someone over dumping trash. MURDER. No courthouse, no police, no mediator. MURDER.

You are insane in trying to defend this. Holy jesus.

If it really is their driveway ie their property then they have every right to carry the guns there. And given how the guy is acting do you really think confronting him without a weapon is a good idea?

You can say “call the cops” but you don’t know the background of any of these people. Maybe they’ve done that in the past to no avail?

I think a lot will hinge on whether it’s really their property or not, as well as whether they acted in self defense.

If both those things are true then good for them. Stand up to assholes like this, and if necessary end them. But don’t back into a corner with your thumb in your mouth rocking back and forth hoping a flatfoot will save you. Cops don’t give a shit about you or your property.

 

[Papa]

Okay, I don't want to sound dumb but... how does guns being lethal have to do with culture? And even a violent culture can do a lot less damage with a knife than a gun, right?

It's fine, you don't sound dumb. I empathise with your arguments and have thought the same way for most of my life. It's only recently that I have started to question my beliefs as I have learned more about global politics and seen what is going on in places like the UK (Count Dankula, encroaching Sharia Law), South Africa (race-based land appropriation), China (disappearing dissidents, social rating systems for citizens). It may also be of note to you that Hitler, Stalin and Mao all banned guns shortly before their atrocities.

Regarding interpersonal gun violence, don't get me wrong, I want a gun-free society, and I am completely comfortable with how it's handled in Australia. We don't have the socioeconomic or cultural problems of other countries though. The reason I bring up the Chicago example is because an inordinate amount of gun crime is committed there, among other similar cities, that inflates the total statistics that you are referring to. You can ban guns there but the poverty and criminal subculture that is committing most of the gun crime are still going to exist. You're also going to introduce a black market that prevents regulation of gun sales and, despite what you hear in the media, guns are regulated in the US. I found the Rubin Report interview of Coloin Noir interesting for this topic: (I think he was also on Rogan if that's more your flavour). You need to address the root causes if you truly want a gun free society but that is not a quick fix.

Regarding defense against a totalitarian state, obviously the military would wipe the floor with a citizen militia, but that's not the point (the Vietnam War counters this argument anyway). The point is that the threat of violence is a deterrent to prevent the government from ever getting to a point where they would think about using the military in this manner. I used to think this argument ridiculous but my mind is changing and I currently don't really know where I stand. It's one of those issues where I can see the pros/cons of both sides of the coin. I mean, Europe just banned memes for fuck's sake. I don't think it's too far-fetched to think that a totalitarian state could develop somewhere in Europe in the next half a century or so.

 

[Malakhov]

All involved in this video are idiots. The guy who got killed kept threatening two guys with guns with a baseball bat. His wife, instead of trying to calm everyone and get her idiot husband out of the way, threw more oil on the fire. All this happened in front of their nephews, that's great.

The only person calm in that video is the older guy with a handgun, he stayed calm through the whole situation but even though his son and him warned him multiple times and I'm a pro-gun advocate, I just can't justify what they did. It's a cold blooded murder.

The wife, instead of filming with her phone, should of called the cops and pull her idiot husband by the ears...

 

[Papa]

All involved in this video are idiots. The guy who got killed kept threatening two guys with guns with a baseball bat. His wife, instead of trying to calm everyone and get her idiot husband out of the way, threw more oil on the fire. All this happened in front of their nephews, that's great.

The only person calm in that video is the older guy with a handgun, he stayed calm through the whole situation but even though his son and him warned him multiple times and I'm a pro-gun advocate, I just can't justify what they did. It's a cold blooded murder.

The wife, instead of filming with her phone, should of called the cops and pull her idiot husband by the ears...

I don't think it's cold blooded murder. I'm no legal expert but as a layman, I think it should sit somewhere between manslaughter and a lesser degree murder due to the self defense aspect.

 

[Malakhov]

I don't think it's cold blooded murder. I'm no legal expert but as a layman, I think it should sit somewhere between manslaughter and a lesser degree murder due to the self defense aspect.

Oh from that point of view I agree, heck, I wouldnt even be surprised that they both get off with 'stand your ground' because of the self defense aspect.

 

[NahaNago]

“Hard men” hiding behind guns. Bitches.

Hard man starting something with "Hard men " hiding behind guns. Idiot.

 

[godhandiscen]

People with psychological impairments like them should not own guns.

 

[diablos991]

Both sides are dumb.

But for sure the guy that has a bat eacalating against a shotgun and pistol is a higher tier of dumb.

 

[NahaNago]

Like seriously don't argue/mess with/ act stupid with a guy that has the gun. That should be just plain common sense.

 

[Soleil rouge]

The big guy was either a bit mentally handicapped, or a complete psychopath. He was totally unafraid of very real danger.

I can't believe his wife didn't try to calm him down. Then again, it's plausible that she lived in fear and never dared to question him.

 

[Snoopycat]

They shouldn't have done that. That was the wrong thing to do.

 

[Snow_Lizard]

Even if the cultures are different, the numbers just show a proves statistic. It literally just says that guns result in more deaths. Regardless of culture or history.

If that's true, then why does Switzerland have a gun ownership rate seven times higher than the U.K., and half the murder rate?

 

[Sapiens]

For fucks sakes, can we get these people some shirts?

And brassieres.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

What context? Three batshit insane people who shouldn't have had weapons in the first place? Because that's the context for me. The fact that people have guns in their home, people like this. I don't trust anyone with a gun by the way. Ever.

Maybe this will add some context.

Murders in US very concentrated: 54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders, 2% of counties have 51% of the murders

See all those counties in white? There are a FUCKTON of people with guns there who don't shoot other people. You trust zero of them. Whatever.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

I think it’s safe to say that everyone involved in this is at the bottom of the gene pool. Damn, the wife’s screams at the end were harrowing though.

Firstly, I don't want to watch the video to the end.

But what do you mean by bottom of the gene pool? If there's a gene pool ranking, wouldn't it be ordered by who has the most kids? I'm willing to bet these men are higher than the US median in terms of propagating their genes.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

I feel absolutely terrible saying this, but that sounded like exactly like a random GTA NPC conversation.

 

[Papa]

Firstly, I don't want to watch the video to the end.

But what do you mean by bottom of the gene pool? If there's a gene pool ranking, wouldn't it be ordered by who has the most kids? I'm willing to bet these men are higher than the US median in terms of propagating their genes.

As in they're most prone to Darwinism.

 

[cryptoadam]

Are these the guys you want to die on the cross for in regards to gun laws. I mean watching that video its clear that all 3 of these assholes should not be anywhere close to a gun.

Thats the problem with the fanaticism with the 2nd ammendment and guns. I can't imagine anyone who is pro guns can honestly watch this and argue that these 3 jerk offs should be able to carry fire arms around. Even the guy who was killed was running his mouth threatening to kill those other guys. If he had a gun on him then maybe the old guy or his son are the dead ones.

I agree with DS_Joost the principal cant be argued with. There can be debate about the execution and its a give and take, but you can't be honest and not agree in principal to the reduction of guns in America.

 

[NahaNago]

Maybe this will add some context.

Murders in US very concentrated: 54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders, 2% of counties have 51% of the murders

See all those counties in white? There are a FUCKTON of people with guns there who don't shoot other people. You trust zero of them. Whatever.

It shows me that you shouldn't trust people in California with guns.

 

[Snow_Lizard]

Thats the problem with the fanaticism with the 2nd ammendment and guns. I can't imagine anyone who is pro guns can honestly watch this and argue that these 3 jerk offs should be able to carry fire arms around.

They shouldn't be able to have knives, baseball bats, drain cleaner or bricks, either. And certainly never drive a car. So where exactly do we stop in curtailing the rights of the people, in hopes of making the assholes less dangerous?

 

[Atrus]

There's nothing about the situation that would justify 'defense', it is outright murder especially when the son starts following up with his shotgun.

A civilized society cannot function if you do not have an obligation to deescalate, which the gunmen could have easily done. You cannot show up with your armed posse and start issuing warnings that you will shoot simply because you perceive them to be a threat.

These should be considered especially heinous acts and be summarily dealt with by maximum penalty allowable.

 

[Ekdrm2d1]

Those American rights. It was their right to kill over trash in the ally.

 

[Ekdrm2d1]

They shouldn't be able to have knives, baseball bats, drain cleaner or bricks, either. And certainly never drive a car. So where exactly do we stop in curtailing the rights of the people, in hopes of making the assholes less dangerous?

These are fun. I have some more..

“Ban water! Flooding kills millions!”

“Ban tornados they kill thousands”

“Ban cancer. Cancer kills!!”

 

[138]

Fuck the 2nd Amendment.

The fact that we have a "right" to own something, anything, is fucking ridiculous.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

These are fun. I have some more..

“Ban water! Flooding kills millions!”

“Ban tornados they kill thousands”

“Ban cancer. Cancer kills!!”

wat