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Father and son kill neighbor in front of his wife because of a mattress (graphic video)

Snow_Lizard

Member
How many actual people have had to pull a gun on someone to stop a crime? I imagine its very low.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf

This is from an anti-gun-rights group, attempting to show that use of guns in self-defense is rare, and so I'd consider it the lowest credible estimate. If you go to page seven, you'll see that it comes to about 65,000 defensive gun uses per year.

In other words, for every person murdered with a gun in the US, there are about six people who use a gun for defense against crime.

As far him getting a gun before or after, my point is if you go the extreme with gun rights than you have to argue that this guy should have a gun, even though you know he threatens to murder people.

That doesn't follow at all. It's like saying that, if you believe in free access to the Internet, you have to support child predators going online.

In point of fact, the law covers the question in multiple ways. If you sell a gun to someone when you know they plan violence with it, you can be charged as an accomplice. A firearms dealer must subject any sales to a background check, and private sellers can't sell to anyone they have cause to believe is disqualified from ownership; failure to follow these rules is a felony. A court can order confiscation of guns from a person if it finds the person to be a danger to himself or others, mentally incompetent, or guilty of any felony or certain violent misdemeanors.
 

Snow_Lizard

Member
But to be willing to own a shotgun raises my eyebrows, and I honest to god have never found a person who could give me a sane reason for owning one. That is, for me, the decadency of the right to own a gun. Why would anyone want a shotgun?

Um... how do YOU hunt birds?
 

llien

Member
This is from an anti-gun-rights group, attempting to show that use of guns in self-defense is rare, and so I'd consider it the lowest credible estimate. If you go to page seven, you'll see that it comes to about 65,000 defensive gun uses per year.

In other words, for every person murdered with a gun in the US, there are about six people who use a gun for defense against crime.
Hm, what do you consider to be the number of people in US, murdered with a gun?
 
BANGUNS
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I once again pose the question that has yet been answered by those asinine enough to want to ban guns.

What happens when the millions of responsible gun owners and those that own them for home protection turn in their guns, and the criminals don't? Now they know homeowners dont have protection. What do you do about that? Just let the inevitable home invasion epidemic happen?

The people murdering others with guns(this video was not murder) are going to have their guns no matter what law is passed. So what you are saying is fuck everyone else besides the criminals. You realize this, right?
 

Pompi

Member
I think you fail to understand something about modern society and policing.

The government and Police has a certain assumption that it's civilians are interested in not committing crimes.
If a big portion of the population was interested in committing crimes, then the country would be in chaos.
So it boils down that you want to take the rights of the law abiding majority, just because of a few radical/violent minority.
Not only that, you take the only tool of defense from civilians in case of house burglary either which often might end up in rape or murder(or both).

Shot guns are very good to defend yourself from home invasion. I am told.
They can carry enough shells, and they would also won't blow up your kid through the wall.

As I tried to say, the issue is not the guns, the issue as always is people.
You have a violent society because the people there are either poor or don't respect the host country.
In London the violence is mainly due to African migrant gangs, so banning guns doesn't help reduce violence there. It's those specific African gangs that made London a lot more violent than it used to be.

Again, the problem is People, if there is a large amount of population(gangs, revolutionists whatever) that doesn't respect their host country and laws, then no amount of gun control will reduce the violence.
 

thief183

Member
Are you a Miller as well?

a what?

Btw I rewatched the video with audio this time and I changed my mind. The two guys with guns just defended themself a bit too much. I mean the dead guy was threatning their family, screaming and refuse to step a way from the "father2". The dead guy sounded like a bully that had to show how much testosterone he had, and was trying to push them to do something extreme...guess sometimes you get what you deserve.
 

888

Member
I think you fail to understand something about modern society and policing.

The government and Police has a certain assumption that it's civilians are interested in not committing crimes.
If a big portion of the population was interested in committing crimes, then the country would be in chaos.
So it boils down that you want to take the rights of the law abiding majority, just because of a few radical/violent minority.
Not only that, you take the only tool of defense from civilians in case of house burglary either which often might end up in rape or murder(or both).

Shot guns are very good to defend yourself from home invasion. I am told.
They can carry enough shells, and they would also won't blow up your kid through the wall.

As I tried to say, the issue is not the guns, the issue as always is people.
You have a violent society because the people there are either poor or don't respect the host country.
In London the violence is mainly due to African migrant gangs, so banning guns doesn't help reduce violence there. It's those specific African gangs that made London a lot more violent than it used to be.

Again, the problem is People, if there is a large amount of population(gangs, revolutionists whatever) that doesn't respect their host country and laws, then no amount of gun control will reduce the violence.

I believe not knowing who has a gun and knowing how many are out there keeps the crime rate lower than it would if there were no guns. I want to look into gun crimes in states where guns are legal vs illegal.

If guns were removed, criminals are unaffected. They will just be emboldened.

Research project for today I suppose.
 

Z..

Member
I was implying you're related to the perpetrators. You know, because of the death penalty allusion and all that jazz when the Scandinavian system has conclusively shown that a penal system focused on actual rehabilitation is always the way to go, regardless of the crime.
 

Z..

Member
I once again pose the question that has yet been answered by those asinine enough to want to ban guns.

What happens when the millions of responsible gun owners and those that own them for home protection turn in their guns, and the criminals don't? Now they know homeowners dont have protection. What do you do about that? Just let the inevitable home invasion epidemic happen?

The people murdering others with guns(this video was not murder) are going to have their guns no matter what law is passed. So what you are saying is fuck everyone else besides the criminals. You realize this, right?

Rhetoric isn't your strong suit, is it?

That aside and regarding the bolded, as someone who studied abroad in São Paulo for 2 years and Mexico City for 6 months... I have never encountered a more paranoid cultural landscape than the US one. Assuming you're not aware, there's a ridiculous amount of guns in the hands of criminals in Brazil and gun control is pretty tight over there so the average citizen doesn't really have access to them, especially since they're a luxury most won't bother to spend their precious money on. In certain areas, you'll often see groups of dozens or sometimes even hundreds of gangbangers parading around with AKs, Uzis, 12 gauges, you name it. Again, most citizens are not armed AT ALL and much like the US, there's a gigantic wealth gap and the military police, while expertly trained and well equipped isn't anywhere near being staffed to handle an epidemic like the one you mention... and still this inevitable home invasion crime wave has yet to have manifested itself despite this being a huge problem over there since the 60s. Tthe vast, vast majority of deaths, crimes and injuries relating to such problems seem to mostly stick to criminal territorial disputes and gang rivalries. Hell, most of the non-affiliated victims are caused by stray bullets. For reference, you'll find a ton of data on this and many other related issues on several of the articles found on this website, but it's all in Portuguese, unfortunately for non-speakers.

Now, explain to me, using logical arguments, how something like what you're describing would ever be a problem in a country that spends more on defense and policing than the next 7 countries combined. Do remember that gun culture was about as ingrained into the fabric of society in Brazil as it is in the US before the control policies.

Anecdotally and on a completely different note, while working in London I met and befriended a decent number of US citizens and it was always a talking point among us Europeans how nervous and jittery you guys get whenever something unexpected happened. If someone dropped a glass or tripped and fell or something, nobody in our group would bat an eye... but the 3 US nationals were always on edge whenever something like this happened and would always segway into hypothetical "what if" scenarios involving gettting mugged, home invasions or being followed when confronted about it. You guys live in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia... willingly. No wonder there's so many of those "culture shock coming back to the US after prolonged holiday abroad" videos on youtube. I gotta say, to those of us who are looking at you from the outside... you guys are completely insane to not only go along with such indoctrination but worse yet in many cases like yours to actually embrace and promote it. It's utter and complete madness. Stop living in fear, man... it's up to you.
 

Snow_Lizard

Member
Hm, what do you consider to be the number of people in US, murdered with a gun?

There are about 11,000 murders (criminal homicides) committed with a gun per year in the US. Again, about one murder for every six defensive gun uses.

Though there are about 65,000 defensive gun uses per year, there are less than 300 justifiable homicides by private citizens per year. This is likely because people defending themselves do not intend to kill anyone unless absolutely necessary, and criminals seldom stick around if their intended victim turns out to have a firearm. Those who do are much more likely to be wounded and survive than killed.
 
Rhetoric isn't your strong suit, is it?

That aside and regarding the bolded, as someone who studied abroad in São Paulo for 2 years and Mexico City for 6 months... I have never encountered a more paranoid cultural landscape than the US one. Assuming you're not aware, there's a ridiculous amount of guns in the hands of criminals in Brazil and gun control is pretty tight over there so the average citizen doesn't really have access to them, especially since they're a luxury most won't bother to spend their precious money on. In certain areas, you'll often see groups of dozens or sometimes even hundreds of gangbangers parading around with AKs, Uzis, 12 gauges, you name it. Again, most citizens are not armed AT ALL and much like the US, there's a gigantic wealth gap and the military police, while expertly trained and well equipped isn't anywhere near being staffed to handle an epidemic like the one you mention... and still this inevitable home invasion crime wave has yet to have manifested itself despite this being a huge problem over there since the 60s. Tthe vast, vast majority of deaths, crimes and injuries relating to such problems seem to mostly stick to criminal territorial disputes and gang rivalries. Hell, most of the non-affiliated victims are caused by stray bullets. For reference, you'll find a ton of data on this and many other related issues on several of the articles found on this website, but it's all in Portuguese, unfortunately for non-speakers.

Now, explain to me, using logical arguments, how something like what you're describing would ever be a problem in a country that spends more on defense and policing than the next 7 countries combined. Do remember that gun culture was about as ingrained into the fabric of society in Brazil as it is in the US before the control policies.

Anecdotally and on a completely different note, while working in London I met and befriended a decent number of US citizens and it was always a talking point among us Europeans how nervous and jittery you guys get whenever something unexpected happened. If someone dropped a glass or tripped and fell or something, nobody in our group would bat an eye... but the 3 US nationals were always on edge whenever something like this happened and would always segway into hypothetical "what if" scenarios involving gettting mugged, home invasions or being followed when confronted about it. You guys live in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia... willingly. No wonder there's so many of those "culture shock coming back to the US after prolonged holiday abroad" videos on youtube. I gotta say, to those of us who are looking at you from the outside... you guys are completely insane to not only go along with such indoctrination but worse yet in many cases like yours to actually embrace and promote it. It's utter and complete madness. Stop living in fear, man... it's up to you.

I dont live in fear. Why? Because someone breaks into my home they aren't leaving alive. I know my family is protected. I have two boys and a girl on the way. There is no way in hell I wouldnt have my firearm in the home for protection. Doesn't mean I live in fear. It means I'm prepared of I ever need it.

Now, I'm a Marine. I'm used to guns, and was always an expert shot with both rifles and pistols. Im comfortable around guns.
 

AfricanKing

Member
In London the violence is mainly due to African migrant gangs, so banning guns doesn't help reduce violence there. It's those specific African gangs that made London a lot more violent than it used to be.

I'm from London so please show me where these African Gangs are roaming the streets , this so some quality bullshit
 

Z..

Member
I dont live in fear. Why? Because someone breaks into my home they aren't leaving alive. I know my family is protected. I have two boys and a girl on the way. There is no way in hell I wouldnt have my firearm in the home for protection. Doesn't mean I live in fear. It means I'm prepared of I ever need it.

Now, I'm a Marine. I'm used to guns, and was always an expert shot with both rifles and pistols. Im comfortable around guns.

I don't mean to offend but I can't tell whether your post is sarcasm or not. If it is, touché! If not, however...

Do you understand how eloquently you just illustrated how insane the level of paranoia you live with on a daily basis is? There is no enemy, you're tilting at windmills, buddy! I know you are prepared because that is your career but that you're convinced you may end up needing it outside said career says it all... this is a uniquely American trait, this ingrained paranoia and fear of what may come, you are bombarded with atrocities that numb the brain on a daily basis to keep you in this state and it's become so natural to you that you don't even question it. Hell, you clearly embrace it! This isn't normal, man... it's something you'll only encounter in extremely poor and abjectly miserable conditions and the USA. Hell, it drives your economy! You know, for a nation with such an emphasis on freedom you lot sure are invested on depriving yourselves of it! Though I suppose it is only to be expected. I'm not usually fond of resorting to quotes to drive a point home, but sometimes they're just too appropriate not too... Goethe said it best when he said “The best slave is the one who thinks he is free.” The modern USA, in a nutshell.

The absolute kicker, of course, is that you're ready to pounce when this potential situation escalates but it seems like you're making no effort to understand what could actually be motivating it and how it can be stopped.
 

Snow_Lizard

Member
I don't mean to offend but I can't tell whether your post is sarcasm or not. If it is, touché! If not, however...

Do you understand how eloquently you just illustrated how insane the level of paranoia you live with on a daily basis is? There is no enemy, you're tilting at windmills, buddy! I know you are prepared because that is your career but that you're convinced you may end up needing it outside said career says it all... this is a uniquely American trait, this ingrained paranoia and fear of what may come, you are bombarded with atrocities that numb the brain on a daily basis to keep you in this state and it's become so natural to you that you don't even question it. Hell, you clearly embrace it! This isn't normal, man... it's something you'll only encounter in extremely poor and abjectly miserable conditions and the USA. Hell, it drives your economy! You know, for a nation with such an emphasis on freedom you lot sure are invested on depriving yourselves of it! Though I suppose it is only to be expected. I'm not usually fond of resorting to quotes to drive a point home, but sometimes they're just too appropriate not too... Goethe said it best when he said “The best slave is the one who thinks he is free.” The modern USA, in a nutshell.

The absolute kicker, of course, is that you're ready to pounce when this potential situation escalates but it seems like you're making no effort to understand what could actually be motivating it and how it can be stopped.

That's one way of looking at things, but he reality is that innocent people are victimized in horrible ways every day. People who go about unarmed are depending on statistics for their safety - they know someone will be victimized, but on any given day, it probably won't be them or someone they care about.

Personally, I choose to add a proactive measure for safety. I carry a gun like I wear a seatbelt. Neither has ever saved my life, but it doesn't hurt to have it. If you want to call that paranoia, fine, but you really don't understand the mindset like you think you do.
 

AfricanKing

Member
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/la...-crime-murder-tanesha-melbourne-npk-tottenham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_the_United_Kingdom#London

"A gang database for London estimated that 78.2% of members were Black, 12.8% were white, 6.5% were Asian (Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshis), 2.2% were Middle Eastern/Arabs and under 1% were East Asian or of unknown-ethnicity "


Their Black British, British or English.. lol

Those aren't "African" Gangs their English Gangs

You think most those kids identify with being from Africa , that's their heritage for some as we have a large Caribbean population aswell but their all born and bred in the UK.
 
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Papa

Banned
Their Black British, British or English.. lol

Those aren't "African" Gangs their English Gangs

You think most those kids identify with being from Africa , that's their heritage for some as we have a large Caribbean population aswell but their all born and bred in the UK.

I don't agree with his point but I don't agree with your misdirection either. He is pointing at race-based statistics while you are pointing at culture. Race and culture are not the same thing.
 

Z..

Member
That's one way of looking at things, but he reality is that innocent people are victimized in horrible ways every day. People who go about unarmed are depending on statistics for their safety - they know someone will be victimized, but on any given day, it probably won't be them or someone they care about.

Personally, I choose to add a proactive measure for safety. I carry a gun like I wear a seatbelt. Neither has ever saved my life, but it doesn't hurt to have it. If you want to call that paranoia, fine, but you really don't understand the mindset like you think you do.

Interesting choice of words there when you said unarmed people are depending on statistics for their safety. Because that is precisely the point, statistics and research overwhelmingly show that having a gun immediately makes you much more likely to suffer such victimization and up your risk factor by an absurd magnitude. That was actually the driving force behind the 1991 gun reform sweep that happened throughout the EU. Fact is, it worked like a charm and incidents dropped to unprecedented lows.

I get that you want to be proactive about your own safety and I actually compltely understand it, but it's pure ignorance to convince yourself that this will help you. It is entirely possible that it could save your life, but it is far more likely that it'll end up costing you your life. I know you don't want to depend on statistics, but they do not lie and they clearly show that is the case. That desire to be proactive is pride getting the better of you, don't let it win. You want to be proactive about your safety and that of those you love, go learn Krav Maga and don't try to be a hero unless the life of your loved ones depends on it.

The paranoia comes not from you wanting to be safe, but from permanently contemplating life from a paradigm of possible iminent danger and the need to prepare for it.

As for understanding the mindset, I'll immediately admit that I don't fully understand it, though I constantly seek to increase my knowledge on the matter. For better or worse and despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with how many things are done over there, I do love you guys wholeheartedly as a people and I know you individually bear no ill intentions towards anyone. The American institution on the other hand is barbaric beyond descprition, your ruling class is abhorrently narcissistic and the result is plain for anyone to see.
I must say, though, I did study your history quite deeply and one of my thesis (for my BA) was actually about the Red Scare period in the US, which is precisely when this type of fear mongering indoctrination and aggressive propaganda started to widely permeate US society. That was how your symbiotic relationship with paranoia and fear got started and I'm well versed in the events that have led us to the present day since then, so while I do indeed struggle to understand the mindset on an empathic, cultural and personal level, I certainly do understand it from an Academic standpoint.
It's hard to relate to emotionally, but I'd like to understand it better, if you're willing to explain it to me at greater extent.
 

Cybrwzrd

Banned
Anecdotally and on a completely different note, while working in London I met and befriended a decent number of US citizens and it was always a talking point among us Europeans how nervous and jittery you guys get whenever something unexpected happened.

I've never really noticed this trait among Americans.

Also, since I haven't seen you post much, you seem to have just recently came back in the last few months. Welcome back.

You certainly seem to hate America and Americans though. Why so negative about us?
 
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Anecdotally and on a completely different note, while working in London I met and befriended a decent number of US citizens and it was always a talking point among us Europeans how nervous and jittery you guys get whenever something unexpected happened. If someone dropped a glass or tripped and fell or something, nobody in our group would bat an eye... but the 3 US nationals were always on edge whenever something like this happened and would always segway into hypothetical "what if" scenarios involving gettting mugged, home invasions or being followed when confronted about it. You guys live in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia... willingly. No wonder there's so many of those "culture shock coming back to the US after prolonged holiday abroad" videos on youtube. I gotta say, to those of us who are looking at you from the outside... you guys are completely insane to not only go along with such indoctrination but worse yet in many cases like yours to actually embrace and promote it. It's utter and complete madness. Stop living in fear, man... it's up to you.

What utter nonsense.

This is either an outright lie, extreme hyperbole, or you happen to know the three most paranoid Americans in existence.

I don't know a single person who "lives in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia." What a joke.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
What utter nonsense.

This is either an outright lie, extreme hyperbole, or you happen to know the three most paranoid Americans in existence.

I don't know a single person who "lives in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia." What a joke.

That is what we call, "tales from your arse!"
 

Snow_Lizard

Member
I get that you want to be proactive about your own safety and I actually compltely understand it, but it's pure ignorance to convince yourself that this will help you. It is entirely possible that it could save your life, but it is far more likely that it'll end up costing you your life.

I'm not sure which particular studies you know of, but those I've seen generally state something along the lines of "you're X times more likely to be killed by your gun than to kill a criminal with your gun." There are two big problems with this:

1. They always include suicide by gun in the risk of death. Suicides account for the vast majority of those "killed by their own gun". Accidental deaths, and cases of guns being used against owners, are so rare as to be statistically meaningless. It's certainly a good idea to keep guns away from suicidal people, but if no one in your household is suicidal, keeping a gun doesn't increase the risk of death.

2. It assumes that a "successful" defensive gun use results in the death of a criminal. See the study I linked previously. About 0.4% of defensive gun uses result in the death of a criminal. Usually they run, sometimes they're shot and survive, very rarely do they die.

The paranoia comes not from you wanting to be safe, but from permanently contemplating life from a paradigm of possible iminent danger and the need to prepare for it.

Personally I think Americans are far too complacent about safety. When I look around, I see a lot more people absorbed in their phones and oblivious to the world, than glancing fearfully over their shoulders every second.

That was how your symbiotic relationship with paranoia and fear got started and I'm well versed in the events that have led us to the present day since then, so while I do indeed struggle to understand the mindset on an empathic, cultural and personal level, I certainly do understand it from an Academic standpoint.

Academia gets many things wrong. Have you had much personal experience with Americans, beyond the three you mentioned?
 

Z..

Member
I've never really noticed this trait among Americans.

What utter nonsense.

This is either an outright lie, extreme hyperbole, or you happen to know the three most paranoid Americans in existence.

I don't know a single person who "lives in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia." What a joke.

I shit you not, I was merely speaking from personal experience and just googled some stuff on the spot right now so I could show you and... it's actually scary how much what she's saying is resonating with my personal experience with you as a people. Also, I met quite a bit more than 3 people, those 3 I mentioned before were just the closest to me and the ones I hung out with on a daily basis to the point of this becoming quite a bit more noticeable. 2 of them were from Chicago (coincidence, they didn't know each other before moving to London) and the third one was from St. Louis area. Regardless, check this out (start watching at 2:00 and stop a 8:00, the rest doesn't apply)



Also, since I haven't seen you post much, you seem to have just recently came back in the last few months. Welcome back.

You certainly seem to hate America and Americans though. Why so negative about us?

I love Americans, actually. You guys are awesome, in general. I just said so in my previous post. :p
Your country's administrationl is what I despise and find barbaric. Your unrelenting brand of capitalism and the wacked out business practices it has normalized worldwide are what I dislike. You as a people are awesome, though. I love your culture, have visited your beautiful country on several occasions and hope to continue doing so throughout my life! Heck, if my salary wasn't so crap that I could actually save some money I'd probably relocate to Colorado!
 

Z..

Member
I'm not sure which particular studies you know of, but those I've seen generally state something along the lines of "you're X times more likely to be killed by your gun than to kill a criminal with your gun." There are two big problems with this:

1. They always include suicide by gun in the risk of death. Suicides account for the vast majority of those "killed by their own gun". Accidental deaths, and cases of guns being used against owners, are so rare as to be statistically meaningless. It's certainly a good idea to keep guns away from suicidal people, but if no one in your household is suicidal, keeping a gun doesn't increase the risk of death.

2. It assumes that a "successful" defensive gun use results in the death of a criminal. See the study I linked previously. About 0.4% of defensive gun uses result in the death of a criminal. Usually they run, sometimes they're shot and survive, very rarely do they die.

I suppose the most current reference as far as studies go would be this, but there's several other publications of interest, if you want.

I agree that suicides should be considered separately as they only serve the purpose of further muddying the waters, which shouldn't have a place in an objective enquiry of such nature.

As for the successful defensive gun use resulting in death, that seems to be such a small blip percentually, I don't think it'll really make that much of a difference. What the studies really hinge on is the fact that just by you having a gun and making it's presence known, you are immediately attracting unwanted attention. Like you said, successful defensive gun use is often thought to result in the death of a criminal but the fact of the matter is, more often than not the good samaritan will attempt to control the situation to avoid unnecessary losses since his motivations are wholesome, which puts him at an unfair disadvantage since the criminal will be backed into a wall in such a situation and willing to go through with whatever is necessary without hesitating since his life is already on the line. Guns immediately escalate things, which is the problem. They do indeed have the potential to be used for good, but good intentions and poor reflexes are too often the problem. Simply put, if the good guy doesn't have a gun, material crimes won't be avoided but human lives end up being spared, which is the end goal. The human cost is what's important, the rest is irrelevant.

Personally I think Americans are far too complacent about safety. When I look around, I see a lot more people absorbed in their phones and oblivious to the world, than glancing fearfully over their shoulders every second.

Complacent? See this is the thing... they're really not, oblivious to the world (peril wise, not because of distractions as in your case) is how you should be and is the end goal of living in a civilizeds society. It's so funny to me to hear you dismiss my claims of you being paranoid to then have to answer this type of stuff. Safety shouldn't have to be a concern at all, there should be no such thing as too complacent about safety, it really shouldn't be consuming any of your energy. This is what I mean by what I said and I believe what she meant in her video when she said you guys don't even realize you're doing it. That's not normal, man. As in, AT ALL. Oo


Academia gets many things wrong. Have you had much personal experience with Americans, beyond the three you mentioned?

I say Academia from a historical perspective (I'm a PoliSci International Affairs Major).

Personal experience? Let's see, I have at least 6 US friends I'd consider to be close to me (wedding guest close), but I met a bunch of yous guys when I was living in London, I'd say upwards of 30, at least. One of the 6 I mentioned is actually a US rapper living in Lisbon and making a name for himself over here in Portugal (weird as shit, I know, but he's actually built up quite a following around here and he's doing quite well these days). It's not really my jam but he's not terrible. ^^
Apart from actual human connections, I've been to Boston, NY (2x), Philly (2x), DC (2X), Myrtle Beach, Atlanta, Savannah and New Orleans. Aside from the very frst time there I always ended up using couch surfers to find shelter so I ended up meeting some great people along the way, some of whom even ended up visiting me in London, Lisbon and Berlin. Gotta repay that couch! Those weren't as problematic since obviously the couch surfer crowd is relaxed by design, ahah, mostly stoners and the like. ^^ Good people though.
Basically, wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I know quite a few Americans. Haven't met one I disliked yet, by the way. The whole paranoia thing I'm talking about isn't abrasive towards others, it merely seems like a limitation upon your own selves and is just bizarre to witness for us EUrs.
 
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Pompi

Member
Doesn't America have more people than the entire Western Europe?
So when you say "Americans" you project on a very large population.
(I meant US).
Anyway, you have to prove your claim with Data.
 
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Z..

Member
You know plenty of city folk friend.
Last time I went we ended up buying an old pickup truck in Atlanta for 600$ if I'm remembering correctly and we spent several nights out in the open Georgia countrside, but I went with my girlfriend that time so it was just us for most of the trip!

As for knowing alot of city folk, I wouldn't know... I really can't remember where most of the people I met were from, it's been almost 3 years since I've seen pretty much all of them except for the 6 I mentioned but they came from all over the place. The cities I mentioned are the ones I visited, not necessarily ones where I know people, like I said I usually couch surf when visiting new cities and while I did end up making 3 good friends from those experiences, they're not exactly what I'd call huge friendships. It's been a while since I've been able to get around much, unfortunately. My gf got diagnosed with bone cancer 3 years ago and I've been grounded back in my hometown ever since, she had a prosthetic knee installed and is still going through physical therapy to learn how to walk again so I can't really go many places at the moment. She'll be allowed to fly again in 2 months, though, we're excited about that, thinking about visiting the West Coast next summer, hopefully she'll be able to walk pain free by then! Vancouver all the way down to San Diego, if all goes well!
 
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SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Doesn't America have more people than the entire Western Europe?
So when you say "Americans" you project on a very large population.
(I meant US).
Last time I went we ended up buying an old pickup truck in Atlanta for 600$ if I'm remembering correctly and we spent several nights out in the open Georgia countrside, but I went with my girlfriend that time so it was just us for most of the trip!

As for knowing alot of city folk, I wouldn't know... I really can't remember where most of the people I met were from, it's been almost 3 years since I've seen pretty much all of them except for the 6 I mentioned but they came from all over the place. The cities I mentioned are the ones I visited, not necessarily ones where I know people, like I said I usually couch surf when visiting new cities and while I did end up making 3 good friends from those experiences, they're not exactly what I'd call huge friendships. It's been a while since I've been able to get around much, unfortunately. My gf got diagnosed with bone cancer 3 years ago and I've been grounded back in my hometown ever since, she had a prosthetic knee installed and is still going through physical therapy to learn how to walk again so I can't really go many places at the moment. She'll be allowed to fly again in 2 months, though, we're excited about that, thinking about visiting the West Coast next summer, hopefully she'll be able to walk pain free by then! Vancouver all the way down to San Diego, if all goes well!
I agree with Pompi's point. What I meant was it seemed like you only knew city people and then well your earlier claim would make sense. Sorry to hear about your gf bud that stuff is pretty heavy to share.
 

Z..

Member
Doesn't America have more people than the entire Western Europe?
So when you say "Americans" you project on a very large population.
(I meant US).
Anyway, you have to prove your claim with Data.

Lol... no. We're nearing on 400 million right now. 740 if we're talking all of Europe instead of just Western Europe.

Is the claim part aimed at me? If so you're gonna have to tell me which claim you're talking about.

I agree with Pompi's point. What I meant was it seemed like you only knew city people and then well your earlier claim would make sense. Sorry to hear about your gf bud that stuff is pretty heavy to share.

It wasn't just city folk, though, there was all kinds. However, of the ones closest to me only one is from small town america (Ohio, more precisely), if that's what you mean. They are the ones I spent/spend the most time with, so I suppose it could be indicative of certain tendencies.

As for the gf, it's all good now. Shit's dealt with and she's regaining her confidence. Success story, thankfully! But thanks, man, it's appreciated!
 
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Pompi

Member
Anyway, 330 million is pretty close to 400 million.
So it's like lumping the entire Western Europe countries into one category.
I meant your claim the US Americans are stressed.
Anyway, stats do show that Africans commit more crime and are more poor throughout the world and the US.
 

AfricanKing

Member
Anyway, 330 million is pretty close to 400 million.
So it's like lumping the entire Western Europe countries into one category.
I meant your claim the US Americans are stressed.
Anyway, stats do show that Africans commit more crime and are more poor throughout the world and the US.

Regardless of the buckets of trash you have spewed , what does have have to do with anything ?
 

Pompi

Member
It has to do to the fact violence in the US is not due to guns, it's the people.
Wherever there are people who have no respect for the law and the host country there will be more gangs and violence.
 

AfricanKing

Member
It has to do to the fact violence in the US is not due to guns, it's the people.
Wherever there are people who have no respect for the law and the host country there will be more gangs and violence.

So why are you talking about Black British people , that where born and raised here , it's not their host country .. it's their country just as much as anyone else . What you need to look at is Migrant crime if that's what you are point at.

Black, white , blue , pink who give a fuck kind of people commit crime , it's not unique to any race or nationality.
 

Z..

Member
Anyway, 330 million is pretty close to 400 million.
So it's like lumping the entire Western Europe countries into one category.
I meant your claim the US Americans are stressed.
Anyway, stats do show that Africans commit more crime and are more poor throughout the world and the US.

Pretty close? You could fit the entire population of Thailand or the UK or France in that gap, man!

It's obvious you guys are stressed, but that wasn't what I said, I said you are paranoid about personal security. What I don't get is how you expect me to back up a claim I never made. Go back to my original post on that matter... what's the very first word I used there when I started broaching this subject? "Anecdotally". You know what that word means, right? Are you one of them straw man fans, Pompi? ^^

Actually, stats show poverty is the key metric, not ethnicity... but I shouldn't even touch that last comment with a ten foot pole... ooof. =S
 

Snow_Lizard

Member
I suppose the most current reference as far as studies go would be this, but there's several other publications of interest, if you want.

What I get from that is that, if there are fewer firearms, there are fewer firearm-related deaths. That should be fairly obvious - if you ban baseball bats, you'd have fewer baseball-bat related deaths, too. But it doesn't find that fewer firearms mean fewer deaths.

Simply put, if the good guy doesn't have a gun, material crimes won't be avoided but human lives end up being spared, which is the end goal. The human cost is what's important, the rest is irrelevant.

That's not supported by the data. And even if it were, that's not the whole story, morally speaking. Let's say, hypothetically, that guns are heavily restricted/banned, and the overall number of murders drops by 3,000 the next year; but, 300 of the murders the next year are of people who otherwise could have defended themselves with guns. So the law has saved 3,000 lives by killing 300 people. Is that just? Is a civilized society comfortable with making it illegal for people to take actions that, individually, could have saved their lives?

Safety shouldn't have to be a concern at all, there should be no such thing as too complacent about safety, it really shouldn't be consuming any of your energy.

Sorry, that's just utopian fantasy.
 

Papa

Banned
Interesting choice of words there when you said unarmed people are depending on statistics for their safety. Because that is precisely the point, statistics and research overwhelmingly show that having a gun immediately makes you much more likely to suffer such victimization and up your risk factor by an absurd magnitude. That was actually the driving force behind the 1991 gun reform sweep that happened throughout the EU. Fact is, it worked like a charm and incidents dropped to unprecedented lows.

I get that you want to be proactive about your own safety and I actually compltely understand it, but it's pure ignorance to convince yourself that this will help you. It is entirely possible that it could save your life, but it is far more likely that it'll end up costing you your life. I know you don't want to depend on statistics, but they do not lie and they clearly show that is the case. That desire to be proactive is pride getting the better of you, don't let it win. You want to be proactive about your safety and that of those you love, go learn Krav Maga and don't try to be a hero unless the life of your loved ones depends on it.

The paranoia comes not from you wanting to be safe, but from permanently contemplating life from a paradigm of possible iminent danger and the need to prepare for it.

As for understanding the mindset, I'll immediately admit that I don't fully understand it, though I constantly seek to increase my knowledge on the matter. For better or worse and despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with how many things are done over there, I do love you guys wholeheartedly as a people and I know you individually bear no ill intentions towards anyone. The American institution on the other hand is barbaric beyond descprition, your ruling class is abhorrently narcissistic and the result is plain for anyone to see.
I must say, though, I did study your history quite deeply and one of my thesis (for my BA) was actually about the Red Scare period in the US, which is precisely when this type of fear mongering indoctrination and aggressive propaganda started to widely permeate US society. That was how your symbiotic relationship with paranoia and fear got started and I'm well versed in the events that have led us to the present day since then, so while I do indeed struggle to understand the mindset on an empathic, cultural and personal level, I certainly do understand it from an Academic standpoint.
It's hard to relate to emotionally, but I'd like to understand it better, if you're willing to explain it to me at greater extent.

You can’t use the authority of “statistics and research that overwhelmingly support your stance” to bolster your argument without citing those statistics and research.
 

Pompi

Member
So why are you talking about Black British people , that where born and raised here , it's not their host country .. it's their country just as much as anyone else . What you need to look at is Migrant crime if that's what you are point at.

Black, white , blue , pink who give a fuck kind of people commit crime , it's not unique to any race or nationality.
People from African origin, there.
Also black people who live in Britain don't suddenly forget they originate from Africa.
Anyway, there is data. And the data proves that Black people have over representation in violent crime in the US and Europe.
My point is being, it's not the guns, it's population who don't respect their host country and laws.

How come you are against guns, but not against importing migrants from countries who statistically end up committing more crimes?
 

AfricanKing

Member
People from African origin, there.
Also black people who live in Britain don't suddenly forget they originate from Africa.
Anyway, there is data. And the data proves that Black people have over representation in violent crime in the US and Europe.
My point is being, it's not the guns, it's population who don't respect their host country and laws.

How come you are against guns, but not against importing migrants from countries who statistically end up committing more crimes?

Oh God you still don't get it. Someone from Australia and The US are not suddenly European because they are white , and if you want to play this host country shit then you must be a huge advocate for the indigenous people of Australia taking their country back and the same for Native Americans seeing as the European people in their country don't respect it .. do you see how your argument leads no where. And if you want to get coy with words .. we are all African seeing that's is where humanity started .

Again , it's not their host country it's their country , Africa is not a country it's a Continent . Are black people only in The UK and US, what's the status for Spain , Portugal , Pakistan and China.

Migrants in the USA commit less crime , so there goes that embarrassing line if questioning of that's what you want to get at .
 
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Pompi

Member
You can genetically trace people's recenr ancestors region if origin.
People look a certain way is related to the origin region of their ancestor.
About illegal immigrants, compared to black people commiting unproportionalky more crime illegals might commit less.
 

AfricanKing

Member
You can genetically trace people's recenr ancestors region if origin.
People look a certain way is related to the origin region of their ancestor.
About illegal immigrants, compared to black people commiting unproportionalky more crime illegals might commit less.

Your chopping and changing stories now , try and stay consistent, so do you call white people in America and Australia European then , you don't refer to them as American Or Australian ..

Life originated from Africa accept it , your African pal

Your crime stats you don't even have but are just ass pulling is amazing , first it's these Africans commit more crime , then it's wait but these other illigal migrants might commit less crime , both don't play to your narrative of people not respect "host countries" if both groups don't come from their .

Sorry I'm done dropping my IQ , I see why not many people choose to engage with you here.
 

Pompi

Member
"According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of European Americans victims killed by European Americans, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.[49][50][51] "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide
 
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