I read your post. She was molested, are you refuting that?
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Female Smash player was sexually molested at EVO: Offender banned from comp play 1 yr
- Thread starter CO_Andy
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I read your post. She was molested, are you refuting that?
Look, I'm not really interested in arguing with someone who goes on about the "cold reality" about profit-driven businesses that let stuff like this happen in their establishments either. Boo hoo, they lost profits. They should make an effort. We don't even know if that Hyuga dude was booked into the hotel.
And maybe my solutions wouldn't have directly helped this exact situation (your security guard stuff doesn't either mind you), but it's also about helping everyone at the convention. People actually get assaulted at the conventions too. It's bad.
Lanrutcon
Member
What kind of perverse panels? That's the first I heard of that.
This stuff happens in ANY community. Why would the gaming community be an exception? Again, predators aren't anymore or less ingrained in the gaming community that any other community.
Predators who drink will use alcohol as an excuse. A sober predator will just blame something else (victims clothes, eye contact, victims mental state) whatever. Banning alcohol to prevent attacks is like banning women from wearing skirts. You can remove all the potential excuses you want, it changes nothing.
Finally, what you personally think is gross has no bearing whatsoever on the topic of preventing sexual Assualt- since we know predators are attracted to the same things everyone else is.
Oh, some conventions hold late night hentai and fetish panels. There was a topic in OT about it a couple of weeks ago. It was... odd.
The gaming community isn't an exception, the gaming community should be doing things to combat that stuff from happening like any other community. It's a problem in this community too. Is it that hard to understand?
Yeah, and many more people will sympathise with the alcohol excuse. Some even accept it. Removing excuses is good. It's nothing like banning skirts. Skirts do not have the mind altering excuse.
And yeah yeah, whatever. Ok.
Reading this reminds of watching a documentary on US Frat culture where, essentially, the predatory nature is encouraged. Get people drunk, get drunk and it is ok to go on a "conquest" as it is part of the culture.
What is also saddening is that there is a similar network of support that forms around those that do these acts: I hope they get over this as they are actually really nice usually / they are so talented so the girl probably knew what she was doing / they were acting out of character.
Everything seems poised to absolve blame and start the process of glossing over and leaving it behind. It is also evident in here in the way that it is increasingly pushed away from a granular level (let's look at geek culture / tournament culture) and up into a woolly "society" level. You can't just address all of society in one fell swoop. Start addressing tournaments, start addressing campus culture, start addressing raves. As you start ticking these off, the message will come across. The worst starting point is "I don't see this as a problem, so nobody else should".
What is also saddening is that there is a similar network of support that forms around those that do these acts: I hope they get over this as they are actually really nice usually / they are so talented so the girl probably knew what she was doing / they were acting out of character.
Everything seems poised to absolve blame and start the process of glossing over and leaving it behind. It is also evident in here in the way that it is increasingly pushed away from a granular level (let's look at geek culture / tournament culture) and up into a woolly "society" level. You can't just address all of society in one fell swoop. Start addressing tournaments, start addressing campus culture, start addressing raves. As you start ticking these off, the message will come across. The worst starting point is "I don't see this as a problem, so nobody else should".
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Part of the reason why people are being so combative with you is that, by bringing in things like this that are completely unrelated to the incident that the thread is about, you come across that you're just here to grind an axe more than anything else.
entremet
Member
This is plainly untrue, especially if you've dealt with alcoholics.
The issue is that he is still culpable, intoxicated or not.
And he is. Alcohol is not an excuse.
It certainly does, but our whole culture has a woman problem.
Of course I can only tak for me and for everyone that I know. No one ever did something like that while drunk. Hell, when you're that drunk that what you do is passing out at the first bed you can fine, not molest.
With that said, I'm not gonna say he's a itme-bomb rapist, because I don't know him, and because being a rapist inolve more things that he just wanting to molest someone. But I'll never buy the argument that alcohol pushes you to do these things.
With that said, what he needs to do is just don't drink anymore and, if needed, seek help.
That sounds so incredibly creepy....
Ah ok, I thought you meant at Evo
Bobs Big Boy
Member
What, are you getting off on this?
TheSpoiler
Member
I believe there two areas of conversation. The impact of society on gaming culture as a whole (as male dominated as it has been for years and still is), and the FGC.
Pushing it to the societal aspect doesn't always end the discussion. In fact, a lot of people mention this because the framework needs to be laid down. No one can deny society impacted gaming's culture, and it's important to see just how far the influences go. If drinking becomes a trend, we need to look at it as society's impact with drinking too. However, that does sometimes lead people to put the onus on society itself and not implement any fixes. "We will wait until they correct themselves" is a thought sometimes used.
On the flipside, looking at the FGC and a bit into the culture of gaming itself is important. How the FGC has grown to deal with this is incredibly important, and how TOs are finding ways to stop the mentality of this shit needs to be discussed, while providing more solutions to them. For example, the ending sponsorship thing is huge on my list because it's incredibly easy to get going and it serves as a big warning and a huge flag of "don't do this shit".
So what I'm saying is, it's find to include the societal impact so long as people don't just leave it on the shoulders of others. This topic has some of it, but it hasn't gone too far down that hole, I think.
Edit: I guess the best way to describe it is that society's shit seeps into everything, and that in turn makes gaming culture host the issues as well. Like a mirror of shit.
So your concern is over sympathizers? Rather than suggesting true solutions that don't limit responsible adults ability to do adult things, you just wanna make sure that sympathizers don't have any ammunition... Even though the ammunition they have is already weak as hell.
It is a problem in society at large. To try to paint this as some intrinsicly gaming related issue is just ignorant.
If you don't think that society has blamed the "mind altering effects' of women in "provocative" clothing for sexual assualt, I'd just say you haven't read much on sexual assualt. Its victim blaming 101.
'Yeah, yeah, whatever. Ok' translates to "you're right I don't like hentei, so I'm going to attempt to connect it to sexual assaults that have taken place at tournaments, despite there being no evidence of any correlation whatsoever. (After all, we all know the guilty party in THIS matter was present because he was attracted by a fighting game tourney, just like the thousands of other people who showed up and didn't Assualt anyone). When being called out for this blatant case of projection, I'll respond simply with "whatever", because it's much easier than admitting when I'm dead wrong."
We as a society have a rape culture problem. This happens at gaming community events because the gaming community is a part of society. You can ban all the alcohol and hentei you want, and it doesn't even scratch the surface. Doesn't even touch it.
The victim in this case showed a mountain of bravery in airing out this criminal. I hope we can continue to provide an environment where victims and bystanders feel empowered to speak out and make efforts to stop these acts when they see them occurring. He swiftly lost his endorsements, will hopefully be banned and prosecuted for his actions. Continuing to handle these people like the criminals they are, and showing them just how unwelcome they are is how you tackle it in gaming and in society at large. Not by spreading blame.
fabricated backlash
Member
Lol what the fuck am I reading.?
I can see how that can be. I think it's an aspect of similar events that doesn't do well to help the image of the community, but ok. I'll drop that part. That's fine with me, it's not what the thread's about.
UnemployedVillain
Member
How? Why? No different than a porn convention holding porn related panels. As long as they're held later than everything, in a separate/closed area, and barred for people under 18 I don't see the issue
That alcohol lowers inhibitions, it doesn't turn people into completely different people. Someone who doesn't have subconscious thoughts about molesting someone when sober isn't going to do so when drunk either...
sensui-tomo
Member
Those generally dont pull in "creepy"(not you other people's words) people either, hell its generally lots of fun. They're also the most moderated of panels to begin with unlike people who run hotel parties where drinks are handed out freely. and like you've said they're generally 18+ panels.
finalflame
Banned
You're reading that a normal well adjusted human + alcohol does not = a molester.
Dude is a piece of shit; he didn't do this because he was drunk, he did it because he was drunk and predisposed to being a molester/rapist/whatever. People get drunk every day without raping others. People rape others while sober all the time.
It sucks. The consequences have to be severe. Safety has to be emphasized to help protect potential victims. But at the end of the day, trying to ban alcohol (trying, because you will never succeed) isn't the solution.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Not to defend the guy but alcohol does change your behavior pattern. People who are the nicest in the world can turn into major assholes when they are blackout drunk. Hyuga was irresponsible and didn't know how to handle his drinks.
Edit: Actually, I kinda take back what I said. We don't know how drunk he was to want to sexually harass her. Alcohol can still make a person do a complete 180.
Yeah, sorry, that was uncalled, I apologize. I find a porn convention more interesting because theres' actors involving and all of that.
But yeah if its separate and 18 only it should be fine.
V interesting thanks. Sexual harassment is a much bigger problem than i had imagined :/
Agreed too many people jump on the *it reveals your true nature* bandwagon, seen a family member completely change on drugs.
fabricated backlash
Member
Bollocks. Alcohol can and has completely changed people. Come the fuck on, decades of studies on the effects of alcohol on the brain chemistry and the same delusional crap that alcohol doesn't change a Person is still alive.
Does that excuse him? Fuck no, he's still liable, but to act like alcohol is some mythical truth Serum that just Brings out what's already there is grade A bollocks.
This, alcohol doesn't change who you are as a person, if you'd never rape or molest someone sober you wouldn't do it while drunk, being drunk doesn't fundamentally change how you see others
If he'd stamped on a load of puppies and then said "sorry I was drunk, normally I'm a top bloke" I doubt people would be saying "come on he'd just had a bit too much, he's a lovely lad really"
If you do this kind of thing, drunk or sober, you're a shitty person. I'm pretty sure most of us could be drunk and in a room full of male and female friends and not even have the idea of doing something like that even cross our minds
Most definitely. Fortunately, the victims finally have a voice.
How is requiring a breathlyzer test to enter a hotel a "solution"? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
There are certain actions like rape that require commitment long before the person get's drunk. Your right in that Hyuga was probably preying on her throughout the event. The alcohol made the act easier for him.
Alcohol can still fuck with your better judgment when it comes to minor stuff, or sometimes not so minor stuff like killing someone while drunk driving.
Yeep, fuck this guy. Alcohol is no excuse.
I think the FGC isn't as hard on this shit as it should be. There's a guy who made tons of sexually harassing comments towards a girl on TV a few years ago, and doesn't he still get to go to EVO? This is a guy who said sexual harassment was "part of the culture" and he still gets brought in as a commentator sometimes.
What the fuck.
I had a coworker who got some REALLY creepy shit from her cab driver who was driving her home at one point. This was a guy who was openly asking her things like whether she had other people at her house, and what time they were expecting her to come home. She got off the damn taxi.
I think the FGC isn't as hard on this shit as it should be. There's a guy who made tons of sexually harassing comments towards a girl on TV a few years ago, and doesn't he still get to go to EVO? This is a guy who said sexual harassment was "part of the culture" and he still gets brought in as a commentator sometimes.
What the fuck.
It really is. I didn't realize how bad it was until I started dating and my SO told me that her and pretty much every girl she knows has stories about dealing with people being really creepy towards them. And if every single girl she knows has dealt with creepers, then it's not surprising to hear of some of those incidents getting worse. It's a huge problem.
I had a coworker who got some REALLY creepy shit from her cab driver who was driving her home at one point. This was a guy who was openly asking her things like whether she had other people at her house, and what time they were expecting her to come home. She got off the damn taxi.
Look, the gaming community is a part of society. The fact that the amount of sympathisers isn't small is quite alarming to say the least.
And holy assumptions. If I don't think society has blamed the clothes women wear for sexual assault? Yes society has done that. I am vividly aware of that. But alcohol is another issue. It's normalised to the point where it's a perfectly acceptable cover for actions being done. The assaulter becomes a victim - of alcohol.
And me not liking hentai? I've jacked it to my fair share of hentai. I even have favourites. But holy wow do events like that attract some creepos.
And yes, pinning blame is good. But know what you're scooting around, and has been a large part of my posts is all the people who AREN'T pinning blame on him. How can we, as a community, pin blame on someone and oust those who do things like this disgusting Hyuga guy when the community has in-fighting as to if that person is in the wrong in the first place. How can the problem be tackled if a lot of people won't even accept it as a problem? There are people in the community who will even attack Vikki online for simply speaking up. This is a problem. This is what my posts have been about.
trugs26
Member
Sure, both arguments suck.
Alcohol lowers inhibitions - basically people act without a censor. Saying "I was drunk" is just a dumb excuse.
I don't know, what are you reading? If you have trouble with English, I can't help you there.
It's not a complete 180, alcohol just removes the "social censors" that people live with everyday. He was always a piece of shit but knew better than to act on it.
Because I was talking about the convention space, and not the hotel?
people stop being well adjusted when they're on drugs
Stop.
Diddy Kong
Banned
Disgusting. Hope he gets his.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I don't like how the 'this is an FGC issue' is being perpetuated by some people. It's a global issue in all walks of life. Do you know how common sexual harassment is on public transport and even in the work place? It's not acceptable, and pegging it as a 'nerd-thing' ignores the wider issue.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
With Noel and now this the FGC is getting better at cracking down at this. Now we know to inform sponsors and tournament organizers to cut them off as soon as they do stuff like this. It's not perfect and we still got a long way to go but in the end it doesn't matter if people are trying to defend cuz we still got him. He's not getting away with it.
Plus when Smash reddit tells you you fucked up, you have no allies.
entremet
Member
Read.
I was very clear.
You must not be aware of what's going on in American college campuses.
Again, it's not about blame shifting, but empowering people to make better choices.
I already said the molester is fully guilty.
There IS NO acceptable cover for the actions being done. People sympathizing with the attacker because he was drunk is NO MORE COMMON then people sympathizing because they percieve some sort of victim culpability. We live in a culture where a judge will ask a rape victim "why couldn't you keep your legs closed". So removing alcohol does nothing for a tendency to shift blame away from attackers. We can only do that by continuing to refute such outlandish claims. Banning alcohol is simply submitting to the false idea that alcohol is the culprit. You are merely reinforcing an idea that you don't even agree with.
And by saying you "don't like hentei" I'm merely stating that you don't like its presence at conventions, so you falsely attribute it to the presence of sexual Assualt suspects at these events, when in reality, these people come for the same reasons as everyone else.
Pakoe
Member
How the fuck can you defend such a thing? Wtf.
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