• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Fighting Game Headquarters |2| 0-2 vs Community

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dahbomb

Member
So what do all the proponents of a Marvel game without the Marvel brand think of the relative unpopularity of SkullGirls?
The art and character designs.

That point right there you have already alienated a bunch of people who might be interested mechanically in the game.

Once you managed to hook someone in based on the allure of the team mechanics... then you had to deal with vanilla Skullgirls which was a mess. The IPS kept changing and even then originally you had long combos and just some weird shit with it. It was really hard to keep up with so many iterations on those changes. It's good now but it was a lot asking people to stick around for over a year before these problems were fixed.

Next problem is that initially and arguably still to this day... Skullgirls simply does not have the character roster size to accommodate for a potential 3v3 fighter. If you have like 9 characters starting out and you need to build a team of 3... well you are using 1/3rd of the cast on your team already! Being able to use any move for an assist is an excellent feature that Enzo will come in and berate on but he's wrong and should not be catered to... but the issue is that the best move for an assist generally gets figured out and you will still end up with the same few team configurations that work. So you still need a lot of characters for this to work well.

The character ratio system is also something that is debatable. I personally like it but for others it might not be very appealing. When you first get into the game you think "man I should just concentrate on one character and play a solo character" and then you get locked into a single character not willing to try out a multi character team. It's one of those things that is better to pick one option rather than have the user be able to use all possible options. It's both a strength and a weakness of the game.

The other problems are more minor but they are still substantial to talk about when framed in the context of a MVC2 successor. The game is 6 buttons but assists require you to press two buttons. The game is trying to be SF-esque with its button lay outs but it has a lot of other double button inputs for stuff like throws and assists. The appeal of a game like MVC2 is that you have easy one button throws and one button assists. It's a complexity issue that sort of pushes away newcomers (and Skullgirls has enough of that as it is). MVC2/MVC3 are definitely not newcomer friendly but starting out it's easier to grasp into the 4 attack buttons and two assist buttons. It's easy to air throw people and call assists which feed into the fast paced, team based play style of the game.

Another smaller issue is that the game doesn't really emulate the pace and structure of MVC2/MVC3. I am not talking just about the speed here (Skullgirls is fast but not as fast) but rather the verticality of the action. Super jumping is kinda limited in Skullgirls as is aerial mobility for most of the cast (Painwheel is really the closest to an aerial character in Skullgirls) so that focuses most of the combat on the ground. MVC3 did this as well a bit compared to MVC2 but a lot of the action was still in the air with characters with really fast dashes and flights. This structuring of the action is what really separates the Marvel games from many other anime games combined with the team based game play (which to be fair Skullgirls does emulate well).


Skullgirls is one of the closest games to MVC2/MVC3 but it's still not a "Mahvel" game (and I am not talking about Marvel characters here obviously). Mike Z can call it MVC2-like as much as he wants but it doesn't hit the same notes as that game does.


Edit: Fucking Zissou beat me to it god damn it. He pretty much said what I said here.
 

Zissou

Member
Edit: Fucking Zissou beat me to it god damn it. He pretty much said what I said here.

I was quicker because I'm lazy and you took the time to write proper sentences and elaborate on your points :p
it bit me in the ass because my post is stuck on the bottom of the previous page, haha
 

Dahbomb

Member
One thing that many people don't get is that these team based fighters don't really work well in bringing in newer audiences if each individual character requires almost SF character level of mastery to play.

In a team based game you expect players to play multiple characters at a decent level and for that to be a reality you need to make each individual character easier to play. It's hard enough learning 3 characters by themselves but then also learning how they play with each other on a team, learning their assist/DHCs timings and then learning 3v3 team match ups... it's a brutal experience starting out.

If you don't do that then you lose your potential audience rapidly. That's why these games tend to have stuff like magic series and why MVC3 did a lot of the stuff it did (some right, some not so right).

Despite having only 9 or so characters, Skullgirls is still a fairly difficult game to play at a 1v1 level and when you expand that team vs team it becomes even harder to grasp. As opposed to if you played MVC3 1v1 it would be a very basic and vanilla (even boring) 2D fighter where you had 3 attack buttons and a launcher only.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Really what sniped Skull girls is 1 all female cast and art style which proves that the people who said "I'll give any good game a shot" full of shit, but let's not talk about those people make them buy an Occulus Rift.

Also it had too much vibes of MVC2 without the MVC2 legacy which would scare people away. Personally I should have loved it but that shit reminded me of MVC2 and I said
Nope-GIF.gif
 
just from the outside, it looked like Mike Z liked a LOT of different Capcom fighters and just kinda threw them all together. Like he really like Marvel, but he also wanted SF complexity, with some Darkstalkers and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure thrown in for good measure.
 
One thing that many people don't get is that these team based fighters don't really work well in bringing in newer audiences if each individual character requires almost SF character level of mastery to play.

In a team based game you expect players to play multiple characters at a decent level and for that to be a reality you need to make each individual character easier to play. It's hard enough learning 3 characters by themselves but then also learning how they play with each other on a team, learning their assist/DHCs timings and then learning 3v3 team match ups... it's a brutal experience starting out.

If you don't do that then you lose your potential audience rapidly. That's why these games tend to have stuff like magic series and why MVC3 did a lot of the stuff it did (some right, some not so right).

Despite having only 9 or so characters, Skullgirls is still a fairly difficult game to play at a 1v1 level and when you expand that team vs team it becomes even harder to grasp. As opposed to if you played MVC3 1v1 it would be a very basic and vanilla (even boring) 2D fighter where you had 3 attack buttons and a launcher only.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Skullgirls having 6 buttons of normals per character. It's a lot of normals to memorize for a 3-man team.

Also, I would have a hilarious time playing Dormammu 1v1. He would be so top tier, haha.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Really what sniped Skull girls is 1 all female cast and art style which proves that the people who said "I'll give any good game a shot" full of shit, but let's not talk about those people make them buy an Occulus Rift.
Skullgirls wasn't a very good game when it first came out, let's be real here. People are quick to forget stuff like Double Butt slam assist and the first few iterations of the IPS.

At that point it was like .... game has bad art, very few characters to even play with, needless complexity and when you got down to it wasn't very good while not having a lot of people actually playing the game... why would you still play the game after all that if you felt that way about it?

just from the outside, it looked like Mike Z liked a LOT of different Capcom fighters and just kinda threw them all together. Like he really like Marvel, but he also wanted SF complexity, with some Darkstalkers and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure thrown in for good measure.
Don't forget Guilty Gear, there is quite a bit of GG in Skullgirls as well.


One thing to consider about Skullgirls is that it wasn't a casual game made for a casual audience. Despite it's other issues, it still wasn't aimed at being a super popular game. It's a game made for fellow fighting game enthusiasts. So it being unpopular in the general sense shouldn't really shock anyone. Now as to whether it has gained any traction in the FGC, well not at first but I felt in the last year or so the game has made a nice little resurgence and is well respected in the FGC. Only thing it really needs at this point is to somehow get on the EVO line up but without the entrants it won't be able to do that and this point right here circles back to the initial point... that Skullgirls wasn't a game made with a wide appeal.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
One thing that many people don't get is that these team based fighters don't really work well in bringing in newer audiences if each individual character requires almost SF character level of mastery to play.

In a team based game you expect players to play multiple characters at a decent level and for that to be a reality you need to make each individual character easier to play. It's hard enough learning 3 characters by themselves but then also learning how they play with each other on a team, learning their assist/DHCs timings and then learning 3v3 team match ups... it's a brutal experience starting out.

If you don't do that then you lose your potential audience rapidly. That's why these games tend to have stuff like magic series and why MVC3 did a lot of the stuff it did (some right, some not so right).

Even without touching the team aspect of the game, I just found the combo system to be horrible and stopped playing altogether a couple of weeks after launch. Trying to chart out different combos that circumvented the "infinite detection" was a mind-numbingly dull exercise for me. Just seemed like there were a ton of rules that weren't even consistent.

It's hard to articulate, but when I played MvC3 at a low level, it always felt like there were a ton of possibilities open to explore when it came to the ways that different characters could work together, while Skullgirls took every opportunity to remind me what I couldn't do. Nothing about it felt rewarding.

Even at the most basic, non-technical level, just smacking someone around with Hulk's buttons flat-out felt better than anything in that game, too.
 

mbpm1

Member
Skullgirls wasn't a very good game when it first came out, let's be real here. People are quick to forget stuff like Double Butt slam assist and the first few iterations of the IPS.

At that point it was like .... game has bad art, very few characters to even play with, needless complexity and when you got down to it wasn't very good while not having a lot of people actually playing the game... why would you still play the game after all that if you felt that way about it?
.

Peacock da bes?
 

Zissou

Member
One thing that many people don't get is that these team based fighters don't really work well in bringing in newer audiences if each individual character requires almost SF character level of mastery to play.

In a team based game you expect players to play multiple characters at a decent level and for that to be a reality you need to make each individual character easier to play. It's hard enough learning 3 characters by themselves but then also learning how they play with each other on a team, learning their assist/DHCs timings and then learning 3v3 team match ups... it's a brutal experience starting out.

If you don't do that then you lose your potential audience rapidly. That's why these games tend to have stuff like magic series and why MVC3 did a lot of the stuff it did (some right, some not so right).

Despite having only 9 or so characters, Skullgirls is still a fairly difficult game to play at a 1v1 level and when you expand that team vs team it becomes even harder to grasp. As opposed to if you played MVC3 1v1 it would be a very basic and vanilla (even boring) 2D fighter where you had 3 attack buttons and a launcher only.

This, 100%. The small number of attack buttons, the fact that ground magic series -> air magic series -> super works with most of the cast as basic messing around bnb (and actually does ok damage) etc.- marvel 3 did a lot to make individual characters easy to learn in order to emphasize the 3v3 nature of the game and allow people to enjoy the complexity that arose from that.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Even at the most basic, non-technical level, just smacking someone around with Hulk's buttons flat-out felt better than anything in that game, too.
Controversial opinion here but the feel of hits in MVC3 are unmatched in any of the current crop of 2D fighters. They really nailed the look and feel of the game.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Controversial opinion here but the feel of hits in MVC3 are unmatched in any of the current crop of 2D fighters. They really nailed the look and feel of the game.

The game has a feel and style that it has that is all it's own. A tribute to the Itsuno and company, they do good work.

They have a great system in place, but either they make a game untied to a license or when they make marvel 4 they put in a deal where they hold the rights to the fighting game aspects for the amount of years they feel it should last 3-6 years. Thus they can support it correctly.
 

Dlent

Member
I don't have much particular attachment or experience with SkullGirls or Marvel, so bear with me. SG had the aforementioned development issues starting from Vanilla while always being technically intimidating. Marvel was a fast paced mess of a game at low levels with abysmal netcode, which a lot of people found fun, but it wasn't for me.

But I never considered SkullGirls to be a Marvel sequel, even if Mike Z called it that; just a game with a lot of mechanical similarities. Even I can see that there's not really a Magneto or Wolverine in SG, but with how many people I saw on FGC streams and social media clamoring for any kind Marvel successor, you would hope more of them would give the game a serious try.

Of course, I won't argue the lack of artistic appeal to the FGC(a lot of people love SkullGirls' art, just not as many in the FGC). Experimenting artistically in what you hope to be a popular competitive game is a terrible idea. Every MOBA looks generic to me, but that also seems like a great way to not alienate anybody.

Kind of funny that the game had depth in all the wrong places though; do you think the game would have been more successful if they made every character half as detailed, in regards to both gameplay and art, but with twice as many of them?

Regardless, I appreciate the replies, even if it doesn't matter to me if SG and Marvel are dead in the water. Looking forward to new Fighting Games this year.

Looks hideous and I hated the way it played.

I enjoy your streams sometimes, but this is a useless post.
 
Controversial opinion here but the feel of hits in MVC3 are unmatched in any of the current crop of 2D fighters. They really nailed the look and feel of the game.

Marvel 3 is a really well-animated and modeled game, everything looks really good. Seeing Green Lantern/Superman's animations from Injustice compared to Nova's animation in MvC3 is like night and day. Also most of the backgrounds are godlike, it's a shame everyone has to play on the 2 boring stages because of frames

I didn't like the high-contrast shader thing they did, though. I feel like they would've done better with something flatter or even stuck with the more cel-shaded TvC look. It just doesn't evoke comic books as well as the 2D Marvel games did and it feels like what a Japanese person thinks American comics look like as opposed to being based on any actual art style.
 
Skullgirls plays good and I love its character designs and art far more than most other fighting games, but I can't stand 3v3 fighters, even if you can play with less than 3.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I enjoy your streams sometimes, but this is a useless post.

Hey, you asked for opinions.

I could pull a DryEyeRelief and just shoehorn any opportunity to shit on the game every other time I posted in this thread, even when it's not topical in the least.
 
Honestly, I am also not a fan of Skullgirls' visual style. The only reason I like it so much is Painwheel. There hasn't been a Sentinel-style character since MvC2, and it's by far my favorite kind of playstyle. Just being able to fly around with her makes it all worthwhile.

Hey, you asked for opinions.

I could pull a DryEyeRelief and just shoehorn any opportunity to shit on the game every other time I posted in this thread, even when it's not topical in the least.
Truth has been spoken.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Hey, you asked for opinions.

I could pull a DryEyeRelief and just shoehorn any opportunity to shit on the game every other time I posted in this thread, even when it's not topical in the least.
pdiddyreacts.gif



Kind of funny that the game had depth in all the wrong places though; do you think the game would have been more successful if they made every character half as detailed, in regards to both gameplay and art, but with twice as many of them?
I think with a 3v3 you need like 30+ characters. The scope of a true 3v3 is really beyond that of Skullgirls. It was an ambitious title to begin with. Mike Z definitely tried though and I give him credits. Skullgirls still has some excellent ideas for a future game in this same style if someone wants to attempt it (and by someone I mean Capcom, let's be real here folks).
 

Zissou

Member
Skullgirls kinda seems like Mike Z had a bunch of ideas fighting game mechanic ideas he'd accumulated throughout the years and tried to put all of them in a single game. Being a small independent studio meant they could do whatever they wanted, but it seems like they overlooked big/important questions (Does a tag fighter with this number of characters make sense? Does the Street Fighter-esque 3P/3K button scheme make sense for a tag fighter? IPS may do its job at making infinites impossible, but does it make doing/discovering combos enjoyable/satisfying? Is it easy for players to intuit how IPS functions? A ratio system gives players flexibility but it also makes it seem like we don't know what we want the game to be- is it a good idea?)

but capcom has never made a good 3v3 fighter

marnvsflux57qhh.gif
 

notworksafe

Member
IPS is the worst part of Skullgirls. Literally just a mechanic that exists to make the game less fun.

Also CVS2 is the greatest 3v3 fighter of all time you scrubs
 
Depends on whether assist characters are a requirement.
Contextually, I felt we were talking with assists.

IPS is the worst part of Skullgirls. Literally just a mechanic that exists to make the game less fun.

Also CVS2 is the greatest 3v3 fighter of all time you scrubs
IPS is a pain in the ass. I played at locals a few months ago and was like "Oh, my bnb doesn't work anymore due to an IPS change".

Has MikeZ ever explained why he didn't go with simple hitstun deterioration?
 

Dahbomb

Member
Outside of Skullgirls, there aren't any non-Capcom 3v3s, right?
There's KOFXIII.

Not the same style obviously. I mean clearly we are all talking about assist based 3v3 fighters here.


Also for someone to make a proper 3v3 assist based fighters, they need to make a lot of balance changes to it along the way. The nature of the games makes it that it's very easy to have imbalances in them. It's like how MOBAs are, these games always need to be balanced a lot because there are a lot of variables in play. When you make a balance change in a 3v3 fighter to a single character, it's not a change to a single character but to at least 2 other characters as well.

If I went in and changed a single property of Hidden Missiles in UMVC3 today... it would greatly nerfed characters like Morrigan and Magneto because it's like a nerfed a big part of those characters.

It's why these games are difficult to balance. Even Skullgirls went through A LOT of balance changes in its time despite having less characters. Though that game has the additional worry of having moves be balanced both on point and as an assist.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Contextually, I felt we were talking with assists.

I'm with you; just wanted clarification. I'm not even sure I'd call a game without assists a "team" game in the first place.

TvC even feels more like a game between multiple point characters than a team game like Marvel, due to how limited the assists are there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom