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Fighting Game Headquarters |3| [Cinematic Title Expansion Coming Soon]

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GorillaJu

Member
The worst thing about games is how incapable people are of discussing them as things that can be appreciated for certain elements and criticized or ignored for others. Discussion is too often hyperbole and absolutes and when the balance of things sways your opinion barely over the fence onto the wrong side you just say fuck it, double down and call it trash.

I like Fargo but I'm not really interested in other TV shows. *internal discussion* why is that? Is it because there are just other things more interesting to me? Is it because I'm ignorant about the cool shows out there and I'm accepting of my ignorance because I have enough going on? Is it the overwhelming time requirement to follow multiple seasons of hour long episodes, including watching weak seasons to keep up on story? Is it because I've internalized a list of unreasonable demands that restrict what I'll allow myself to enjoy?

Nah it's just that TV is a shitty medium. Fargo is good though.
 
T

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
CO_Andy said:
Cindi's opinion is just as amazingly ignorant as the gaffer who thinks the entire fgc are elitists.
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Yea, that's a dumb blanket statement. There are some though. You've meet them. They think they are smarter than any other subset of game players of different genres. They are in every fanbase. They think they are better than the other guys. Even on a more granular level, like tekken/sf fans think they are better than the other for some reason or the other.

But it's just a people thing though. My group I am part of. We cool. Them over there? They dumb. heh.
 
D

DryEyeRelief

Member
Cindi Mayweather said:
Video games are fun, but I think media should be more than fun. So I find games a waste of time for the most part and my time is better spent doing something that is both fun and skillful, like learning an instrument or a language. Fighting games are the only game genre that I can see that provides that for me.
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So it's the skill part of the equation that justifies the fun? For me it's the other way around. I think fighting games are a huge waste of creative energy. What justifies the process and the time, is that it's fun. I would compare it to learning a language too, but as a negative because learning a language is actually practical. Learning an instrument can be shared with more people.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Video games don't reach that potential Cindi is talking about in part because the discourse around them is way too binary. It's a love/hate thing, and opinions about appreciating things for their effort are few and far in between compared to other media, and that's the first step to building towards something better. Also, games are way more expensive than other media to produce.

That said, I think looking for some sort of golden achievement in writing to save the genre is missing half of the picture, and what makes games unique, memorable, and potentially moving.

GorillaJu said:
The worst thing about games is how incapable people are of discussing them as things that can be appreciated for certain elements and criticized or ignored for others. Discussion is too often hyperbole and absolutes and when the balance of things sways your opinion barely over the fence onto the wrong side you just say fuck it, double down and call it trash.

I like Fargo but I'm not really interested in other TV shows. *internal discussion* why is that? Is it because there are just other things more interesting to me? Is it because I'm ignorant about the cool shows out there and I'm accepting of my ignorance because I have enough going on? Is it the overwhelming time requirement to follow multiple seasons of hour long episodes, including watching weak seasons to keep up on story? Is it because I've internalized a list of unreasonable demands that restrict what I'll allow myself to enjoy?

Nah it's just that TV is a shitty medium. Fargo is good though.
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GorillaJu knows whats up, didn't see this post but you're on the money.

I'm trying my best to get out of that black and white outlook on games too, and being too negative about things. It keeps rearing it's head though because I'm so used to either tearing something apart or praising it highly.
 
S

Sayah

Member
Cindi Mayweather said:
It's not stupid, you just disagree. I'm not sure I understand your point with the quote though?

Video games are medium that have boundless potential that will probably never reach it because too many are trying to make games "fun." My opinion comes not out of disrespect for video games but the opposite: I think they could be so much more. But while people argue anything is a waste of time, there's entire books and tv shows that deconstruct our society and make us rethink our places in it. Where's video games The Wire? Or Roots? Or Ullsyses? Or To Kill A Mockingbird. Video games are unique in that they can transport you to any place in time. Video games could be an effective way of examining the consequences and realities of the TransAtlantic Slave Trade, starring a slave. Or they could go over the Holocaust or other real world events and give credence to the idea that video games' interactivity leads to higher planes of storytelling and understanding our world. But instead, we're shooting up aliens. Most video games are dumb and the medium achieves less than half it could.

Can't wait to play Life Is Strange, though. Games like that are on the right track.
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I think what you're trying to say is that storytelling has a long way to go in the video game medium and that's a fine point to make.
 
H

Holy Order Sol

Member
It all goes back to the "games as art" discussion and how people want games labelled as such for the sake of recognition. We keep having those threads, elsewhere you'll see some developers acting like they somehow elevate games by making them more like other media and/or not focused on fun (whether that's by resorting to the usual "cinematic experience" bullshit or based on the subject matter they choose for their game), in some other places you'll find people overanalyzing jRPGs and looking for references to books or whatever all in an attempt to prove that shit is deep.

It takes different forms depending on who does it but at the end of the day it always involves the idea that "there's more than fun to this game and that makes it better than the rest of the shit and proves that gaming can totally be on par with books/movies/whatever I swear omg senpai pls notice me look games aren't dumb now because they can teach [insert socially acceptable thing]".

Except that when you actually value having fun playing games as something worthwhile in and of itself rather than something so wasteful (some people would even say shameful) that you absolutely need something to go along with it to compensate, that kinda falls apart. When you don't subscribe to the idea that everything one does needs to further personal growth and/or end up being beneficial to someone else in some way to be worth doing, when you don't believe that one should be ashamed of spending time enjoying themselves and nothing else, it follows that you don't think that games absolutely need to go beyond providing fun. It's just something that can be nice when it happens rather than something that someone would have a responsibility to push for or make happen.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Karsticles said:
This is the worst thing I have ever read on NeoGAF.
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Reread the SFV threads and come back and say this
enzo_gt said:
Video games don't reach that potential Cindi is talking about in part because the discourse around them is way too binary. It's a love/hate thing, and opinions about appreciating things for their effort are few and far in between compared to other media, and that's the first step to building towards something better. Also, games are way more expensive than other media to produce.

That said, I think looking for some sort of golden achievement in writing to save the genre is missing half of the picture, and what makes games unique, memorable, and potentially moving.

.
Click to expand...

This seems about right.

Also...games really are mad expensive and mad time consuming to make.
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Having actually worked in games for a decade I always feel like I still have so much to learn as being a good craftsman or level artist.
Games are so diverse and cater to so many types of users that I feel that there is something for everyone. Right now mobile is huge and has that quick hit/instant gratification that a game gives you.
Sid Miers called games a series of interesting decisions. To craft/create something to instill an emotion or feeling is what makes you a good or great developer.
Don't limit thinking Cindi. If you don't like it or feel like the medium is missing something, create it. Now is the best time to create.

Also like any artist no matter your intent, it's how people perceive your work. Watching videos of playtesting is a perfect example.
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
I think games have been art for a long time. Super Mario Bros is a piece of art that defined the generation that grew up along with it. When people talk about "art" I feel like they're looking for a one-sided expression but that's ignoring what makes video games what they are. The player expressing their creativity through the game's system is as important a piece of art as the story's meaning or nice visuals.

Reminds of David Jaffe's rant about how easy it is to make games "artistic" by adding graphical filters and sound effects. He was talking about Ico, but he missed what makes that game art. It's what you do and how you interact with the software princess you're trying to save that makes it art, though the presentation does enhance the emotional impact of it. I think Journey is art.

Also it's not like Citizen Kane came out and suddenly films are "art." Because Citizen Kane was made, does that make Transformers 2 a work of art? Does Grapes of Wrath or On the Road make A Song of Ice and Fire "art"?
 
S

Seyavesh

Member
DryEyeRelief said:
So it's the skill part of the equation that justifies the fun? For me it's the other way around. I think fighting games are a huge waste of creative energy. What justifies the process and the time, is that it's fun. I would compare it to learning a language too, but as a negative because learning a language is actually practical. Learning an instrument can be shared with more people.
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it's curious that you think they're a huge waste of creative energy- you don't think expression of self through the game is something that happens? i'd think the fun part and that go hand-in-hand in why the genre in it's many facets is so appealing/consuming to some folks, especially across such a broad range of people
 
S

Sayah

Member
It's not uncommon for people to hate on an entire entertainment medium. People do this with anime all the time. But instead of dismissing opinions as stupid or as "worst post in GAF history," they should be constructively engaged. Cindi makes great points - video games for the most part have piss poor storytelling and the experiences aren't meaningful beyond the "fun" that they provide. Books and movies can be very emotionally captivating via the storytelling - e.g. they can have the power to make a racist individual more accepting and open minded, which would be a life altering experience that leads to a more fair-minded individual. The decisions and choices that individual makes can then have a positive impact on society, instead of negative. I don't think I could name a single video game that could have that sort of impact, but I can name multiple books and movies.
 
S

StriKeVillain

Banned
My lazy ass finally bought Friday and Saturday tickets for Evo. Now I just need to buy some Sunday passes for Mrs. Villain and myself (and a room at the Mandalay Bay :eek).
 
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Nightii

Banned
But fun itself IS a meaningful experience, that is perhaps the one peeve I have above all with this topic.

Things don't have to be "deep" or any of that to have a meaning, purpose and lasting impact. You want games to be "more"? Be my guest, just don't dismiss what I find worth in as inferior garbage because it doesn't fit your very subjective criteria, please.
 
T

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
They are different mediums and elicit different emotions. One is passive, one is not. I am doing one thing for the joy of interacting and mechanics, the other, not so much. I can do both. I can different things from all the mediums. They don't have to be the same.

Games have some work to do in that regard to story telling. But these blanket statements. Come on now.

And this thing about having fun in of itself has a bad or wasteful thing? idk about all that. Some of the best moments in your life are having fun with your family and friends. Not wasteful at all. What is life if not for that. We grow and journey toward death. And try to have fun along the way.
 
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mbpm1

Member
Sayah said:
It's not uncommon for people to hate on an entire entertainment medium. People do this with anime all the time. But instead of dismissing opinions as stupid or as "worst post in GAF history," they should be constructively engaged. Cindi makes great points - video games for the most part have piss poor storytelling and the experiences aren't meaningful beyond the "fun" that they provide. Books and movies can be very emotionally captivating via the storytelling - e.g. they can have the power to make a racist individual more accepting and open minded, which would be a life altering experience that leads to a more fair-minded individual. The decisions and choices that individual makes can then have a positive impact on society, instead of negative. I don't think I could name a single video game that could have that sort of impact, but I can name multiple books and movies.
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I agree that they should be constructively engaged.

I don't agree with any of the rest.

I've never believed in any of that "art can change a person's life" shit. Nor do I believe there is such a divide between what games and other mediums can achieve in terms of emotional response.

Idk. I don't really feel where you're coming from with that
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
Nightii said:
But fun itself IS a meaningful experience, that is perhaps the one peeve I have above all with this topic.

Things don't have to be "deep" or any of that to have a meaning, purpose and lasting impact. You want games to be "more"? Be my guest, just don't dismiss what I find worth in as inferior garbage because it doesn't fit your very subjective criteria, please.
Click to expand...

Bingo
 
JeTmAn81

JeTmAn81

Member
Karsticles said:
This is the worst thing I have ever read on NeoGAF.
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Yes! My post where I said it was ok for Wesker's launcher to be safe on block has finally been surpassed.

I think I mostly agree with Cindi, actually. Not that games shouldn't be fun, but that most games are entirely mindless and we should be looking to do more with our lives than just have fun most of the time.
 
S

Sayah

Member
Nightii said:
But fun itself IS a meaningful experience, that is perhaps the one peeve I have above all with this topic.

Things don't have to be "deep" or any of that to have a meaning, purpose and lasting impact. You want games to be "more"? Be my guest, just don't dismiss what I find worth in as inferior garbage because it doesn't fit your very subjective criteria, please.
Click to expand...

If something has the potential to be meaningful in more than one way, it should be. Video games have that potential but it's not realized that well.

With that said, of course I don't agree with blanket statements that mark the video game medium as completely useless. But I do agree that it has potential for major improvement. Nevertheless, statements like that should not be shocking. A lot of people think video games are a waste of time (including I'm sure many mid-aged or older parents), but Cindy's post is being treated like it's blasphemy of the highest extent. Just think it should be constructively engaged because there are valid points inside her post.

mbpm1 said:
I agree that they should be constructively engaged.

I don't agree with any of the rest.

I've never believed in any of that "art can change a person's life" shit. Nor do I believe there is such a divide between what games and other mediums can achieve in terms of emotional response.

Idk. I don't really feel where you're coming from with that
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There's research done on this. It's not something I'm making up. Entertainment mediums have the power to change people's thought processes, from their likelihood of voting to racist inclinations to other things. Read this short article for more insight.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/06/how-good-books-can-change-you/259169/
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
pixelish said:
people pushing video games to be considered as art is like those cyber athletes trying to push esports as a legitimate sport
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Kind of rude to make this projection. Someone says "can games be art?" I say "yes." I don't go out on the streets campaigning for it. I'm just stating my understanding of their state of existence.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
JeTmAn81 said:
Yes! My post where I said it was ok for Wesker's launcher to be safe on block has finally been surpassed.

I think I mostly agree with Cindi, actually. Not that games shouldn't be fun, but that most games are entirely mindless and we should be looking to do more with our lives than just have fun most of the time.
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I was specifically referring to her bolded line.

Also, Wesker's launcher is -1 on block.

But I'll give a serious and thorough response: the common American perspective is "useful or bust". What's this for? What are you doing with your time? How productive are you? It's a corporatist attitude that is becoming more prevalent in our society, and really, at the bottom it says "your value as a person is equal to your productivity". To have idle enjoyment is suspicious; we can only justify vacations as a means to refresh ourselves for more work.

There is value in the transformative experience of people coming to enjoy themselves without feeling guilty. The sexual revolution made an attempt at this, but we have largely slid back to notions of usefulness and productivty. Now some think video games need to ascend to art. If someone wants to make a video game in an attempt at art, that's wonderful - I have no qualm with that. But to claim it is needed while simultaneously attacking basic fun is disturbing. Even with the claim to art, the real idea is "if video games could be art, then they wouldn't be so useless, and I could feel so much better about them".
 
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ThatCrazyGuy

Member
Those people looking for respect to come from somebody, somewhere. I don't know what they want.

Just acknowledging it is an art. That's all there is to it. No end game. It was a creative endeavor.

What are people's endgame the other way? Does it make them feel worse somehow that games are considered art? Why would they be so against it. Does it devalue what they consider art?

I don't get the negatives of it either.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Sayah said:
There's research done on this. It's not something I'm making up. Entertainment mediums have the power to change people's thought processes, from their likelihood of voting to racist inclinations to other things. Read this short article for more insight.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/06/how-good-books-can-change-you/259169/
Click to expand...

Sure, they can change how people think. But not in any way as significant as people make out to be. Life changing? Depends on how likely someone is to consume certain kinds of media, how receptive they are to media of some kind, and has no more potential in effect than many, many, other countless things people are exposed to during the day.
 
P

Professor Beef

Banned
ThatCrazyGuy said:
What are people's endgame the other way? Does it make them feel worse somehow that games are considered art? Why would they be so against it. Does it devalue what they consider art?
Click to expand...

It was one man's opinion. Ebert didn't consider games art, and instead of the logical response ("ok"), people took it personally like a bunch of Mega Man fans.
 
ShinMaruku

ShinMaruku

Member
Story telling has a bit of way to go but I think it's kind of off to say "They should be more" Do the creators of said thing have the skill set to be more?

I think games can get there when we have a more diverse set of people and personalities in games. Right now we have just a small subset.
 
S

Sheroking

Member
Professor Beef said:
It was one man's opinion. Ebert didn't consider games art, and instead of the logical response ("ok"), people took it personally like a bunch of Mega Man fans.
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Well, he didn't just say he didn't consider games art. He wrote an essay filled with shaky points about why they weren't art, and he did it in response to people calling out his laziest film criticism ever (dumb action movie = video game, which he happily regurgitated for years on At The Movies).

I like the dude a lot, but that was him making a point about something he didn't know or care about and sticking to it for no good reason.
 
P

Professor Beef

Banned
Sheroking said:
Well, he didn't just say he didn't consider games art. He wrote an essay filled with shaky points about why they weren't art, and he did it in response to people calling out his laziest film criticism ever (dumb action movie = video game, which he happily regurgitated for years on At The Movies).

I like the dude a lot, but that was him making a point about something he didn't know or care about and sticking to it for no good reason.
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Ebert hates a ton of movies that I like though. I don't go about trying to start a crusade against him because of a difference in opinion. Let him hang himself, or however that saying goes, if he makes it clear he hasn't done the research. It's fine to not like something.
 
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