Fighting Games Weekly | Apr 27 - May 3 | NeoGAF actually plays games?!

Skilletor said:
I guess I am the opposite of this. I really couldn't care less about online play. It's nice when it's good, but I wouldn't want a game designed around it.

How would a game designed around differences in connection quality operate the same offline? Serious question. I don't see how that wouldn't affect my experience as a primarily offline player. It seems to me that it would have extremely lenient inputs/buffer windows/timing to account for an unstable play environment.
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I don't have the answer for this, and I do believe too lenient input timing is disadvantageous for both online and offline play, but it's something to consider/balance. The important thing to consider IMO is how the combat can be designed to accommodate that, as opposed to imagining a 30fps version of Marvel that's more online friendly, or something.

Master Milk said:
how does this play out in your mind? serious question, fanfic it out for me, for the devs in the east and the west if you care about them.

...

"i wish all devs used ggpo"?
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Well, East or West, I think you'll still need dedicated hardware for whatever businesses demand a pay per play model, I just think using arcades as a frame of reference in an age of globalization and the internet is pretty antithetical and pretty much everyone but the devs in Japan with their head in the sand can see why this is problematic, especially in a genre where open concessions are made to expand the userbase.

I still find rollback netcode disorienting (and I'm definitely not the only one) and in my head GGPO isn't good enough.
 
enzo_gt said:
I still find rollback netcode disorienting (and I'm definitely not the only one) and in my head GGPO isn't good enough.
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But you can adjust the settings and make it similar to delay-based netcode if you want. Well implemented GGPO gives you choices where with Delay-based netcode you never get that choice.
 
Rotanibor said:
Devil's PlayGround 4 Finals, Japanese VSAV tournament, is tonight! Throughout the month there have been qualifiers to find the best of the best Vampire Savior players, selecting 8 of them in the end to fight it out in an 8-man bracket to decide who is #1.

The event starts tonight at 10pm PDT / 1am EDT with a last chance qualifier to select the final two spots. Two hours after that the Final 8 tournament is scheduled. I believe they're doing a Double Elimination, 2 out of 3 bracket for the finals, but I could be wrong.

~~ CURRENTLY QUALIFIED ~~
1 - Kaji (Lilith)
2 - Sakamoto (Q-Bee)
3 - Nakanishi (Bishamon)
4 - Sakai (Zabel)
5 - Komemaru (Zabel)
6 - Buzz (Gallon)
7 - ???
8 - ???

Stream: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv218525228
(Primary Stream)

Mirror: http://www.twitch.tv/ROTANIBOR
(The above link is just a mirror/re-stream of the nicovideo stream. It will be somewhat delayed behind the primary stream. This stream is for those outside of Japan who have trouble viewing nicovideo. I may do some English commentary for this, we'll see.)

Full Details: http://rotanibor.blogspot.com/2015/04/devils-playground-4-finals.html
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Psyched. Kaji gonna mop it up.
 
enzo_gt said:
I still find rollback netcode disorienting (and I'm definitely not the only one) and in my head GGPO isn't good enough.
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Badly implemented rollback netcode is awful. Just like badly implemented delay based netcode is awful.

There is a difference between GGPO/Skullgirls where you can configure settings/frame delay to maximize good latency for it to be as smooth as possible versus Backbone HDR/MVC2 shit as fuck half of the frames of animation missing oh fuck I just got thrown but the guy was on the other side of the screen KO! Just kidding.

I think people have an idea what GGPO is but never seen it at the maximum potential and always remember the bad experiences.
 
If any of you were watching Justin's stream I was the green farmer Jax that gave him a run for his money lol. Was a little nervous.
 
vocab said:
Badly implemented rollback netcode is awful. Just like badly implemented delay based netcode is awful.

There is a difference between GGPO/Skullgirls where you can configure settings/frame delay to maximize good latency for it to be as smooth as possible versus backbone shit as fuck half of the frames of animation missing oh fuck I just got thrown but the guy was on the other side of the screen KO! Just kidding.

I think people have an idea what GGPO is but never seen it at the maximum potential and always remember the bad experiences.
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Yeah I only used it in Skullgirls and didn't screw around with it really and I only had bad experiences. What does that say about streamlining the online experience in general, though?

Also how does it work when two people have different frame delays?
 
DryEyeRelief said:
This was an idea people didn't want acknowledge in that Seth Killian execution thread
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I don't remember the specifics because that one and a similar one on SRK have blurred in my head but what often happens in those kinds of threads is a conflation of many things and people tend to argue for one thing as refuting a different point entirely, and the end result is a horrible mess.


- Execution, valid balancing tool or not? In my experience, it is. Some people don't think it is. (the typically espoused can do can't do flipswitch perception of execution where it is a problem (can't do) or doesn't matter at all (can do) is something very unrealistic IMO)

-Is execution desirable at all? Even if some people think it works as a balancing tool they do they think it's actively a bad thing and tend to speak as if to purge as much of it from the genre as possible, which then spills onto the other parts of the conflation mess.

- Games are hard. Most agree on that. Some like their games being hard, for many it's a turn-off. Some folks want to see all games as executionally easy as possible. In my experience, games that have a more complex skeleton but have then been "easyfied" tend to be horrible.
When a game is designed from the get go to be simple, like Smash or Divekick or Nidhogg, or simpler variations of the traditional format like old SF, old KOF, GG with some characters, now Yata, it will be and feel good. There aren't enough of those on the market if you ask me.

Juicebox_FGC said:
Yata is simple.
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Problem is, I still can't buy it to even try. And the art direction is offputting in places (not even speaking of the post-game pinups here).
 
enzo_gt said:
Well, East or West, I think you'll still need dedicated hardware for whatever businesses demand a pay per play model, I just think using arcades as a frame of reference in an age of globalization and the internet is pretty antithetical and pretty much everyone but the devs in Japan with their head in the sand can see why this is problematic, especially in a genre where open concessions are made to expand the userbase.
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What do you mean by the bolded? A frame of reference for what, exactly?

Regardless, I wasn't questioning your position, I'm genuinely curious how you think devs would continue operating if arcades went away. For instance, the west is actually easy, because we already don't have arcades, so the few devs in the west that bother with fighting games will just keep doing what they're doing. The devs in the east though, there's room to speculate about what they'd do.
 
Master Milk said:
What do you mean by the bolded? A frame of reference for what, exactly?

Regardless, I wasn't questioning your position, I'm genuinely curious how you think devs would continue operating if arcades went away. For instance, the west is actually easy, because we already don't have arcades, so the few devs in the west that bother with fighting games will just keep doing what they're doing. The devs in the east though, there's room to speculate about what they'd do.
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You are making a product to sell worldwide, those non-Japanese markets are a huge part of what makes it so lucrative (I'm going to go ahead and assume domestic sales far outpace Japanese ones as well). Most competitive interactions in this day and age are online p2p, and how well you engage and keep people playing that game so that you can later sell them additional content/revisions is by ensuring that experience is good and something they want to keep playing, yes?

So what do devs generally do? Extensive local testing in Japanese arcades (fair enough, logistically/financially their best option), early single-region arcade releases, and test online in closed, Japanese environments. There is a considerable disconnect here. Of course there are a bunch of assumptions here and it's hard to argue how much and what kind of testing they definitively do, but much of it appears ineffectual and I have a feeling these are the reasons. An online beta is a great first step, and TBH ultimately beneficial for character balance as well.
 
I'd personally like to see more fight games use the dota/counerstrike/league model where the game is treated as a platform with a constant stream of new content as opposed to $60 sequels every 2 years.

I'm kinda shocked that SF5 doesn't have an arcade version announced yet, but I guess they're trying to shake things up with this version. I think it's gonna take a while for the other japanese devs to change focus away from arcades since they get so much revenue from it. The western devs will be on the console/pc focused idea first.
 
They've said SFV will be not be using an upgrade model- it's going to be either expansions or KI/LoL style incremental updates. (Probably the former.)
 
DRE Fei said:
Killer instinct's business model I like, but the game's main hurdle is xb1 exclusivity. I wish it was at least available on pc so I could try it. I like the idea of mkx/sf5 simultaneous release on pc with the console.
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Killer Instinct is in need of a PC release badly to help expand the player base. Cross play with the console version. I am certain it has to be at least in planning stages but with resources stretched as it is I am not sure how they'll tackle it without outsourcing it to someone else.
 
Coffeeling said:
One thing that's really hit me after playing 2k2um, Faust in Xrd and 3S is how amazing having stuff be simple is. There's just no pressure to grind because simple confirms like button chain => pogo, cr.B cr.A rekkas, cr.B cr.B trigger followup, cr.mk xx SA2 do respectable damage. It makes investing into the games much easier. I'd have a hard time justifying SF4, Xrd Sol and KOF13 at the same time for example. 3S, Faust, 2k2um, not so much. Actually, to put it better, just having time for all of that grinding without throwing away the rest of my life.



If you want a long buffer, button hold is the way to do it. Long buffers otherwise just screw stuff up, and make the game feel off. Worst case, especially when combined with shortcuts, it becomes impossible to get the game to do what you want it to.
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Could always have options. I play execution heavy or complex characters in every game I play and I don't have to pour time in to get consistent results. Different things for dif people.
 
enzo_gt said:
You are making a product to sell worldwide
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For devs in the east, I feel this isn't the case way more often than it is. Even though a lot of games do make it out of Japan, I don't think the mindset of the devs is "I'm making this game to sell worldwide." It's "I'm making a game for my fellow Japanese."

enzo_gt said:
those non-Japanese markets are a huge part of what makes it so lucrative (I'm going to go ahead and assume domestic sales far outpace Japanese ones as well). Most competitive interactions in this day and age are online p2p, and how well you engage and keep people playing that game so that you can later sell them additional content/revisions is by ensuring that experience is good and something they want to keep playing, yes?
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I honestly would imagine most of the money comes from people that have an interest in the games but don't take them that seriously. People that like to "experience the story" and other nonsense don't need amazing or even good gameplay, as long as it's serviceable. DLC is best sold immediately after the game comes out, so keeping people hooked for long isn't actually the goal, just keep them hooked long enough. Online being trash is unfortunate, but a good single experience is really all you need for the casuals, the money.

enzo_gt said:
So what do devs generally do? Extensive local testing in Japanese arcades (fair enough, logistically/financially their best option), early single-region arcade releases, and test online in closed, Japanese environments. There is a considerable disconnect here. Of course there are a bunch of assumptions here and it's hard to argue how much and what kind of testing they definitively do, but much of it appears ineffectual and I have a feeling these are the reasons. An online beta is a great first step, and TBH ultimately beneficial for character balance as well.
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So yea, I don't think the Japanese see arcade releases as local testing. It always feels like their bread and butter, while console releases are dessert. With that in mind, I don't think the death of arcades is going to be all rainbows and sunshine for fighting games. Sony happens to be paying for SFV, but will they want to shell out for Marvel 4 or SF6, or any other franchises. Is ArcSys going to still release things with no arcades? Tecmo seems to see money in home releases, but what about Namco? Gonna get a T8 or TT3 without arcades?

But I agree that the arcade scene is for the birds, but that's mainly because it's always holding up releases. If it weren't doing that, I wouldn't really care about it. And despite it screwing me over, I still don't wish it gone at the moment. So actually, I should say that I agree that there are better ways that devs could be making fighting games, as we've seen from western devs, but I don't think eastern devs would be quick on the uptake even if they were forced, like if* arcades died. As much as I hate getting games late, it would suck even more not getting them at all.

*when
 
DRE Fei said:
Killer instinct's business model I like, but the game's main hurdle is xb1 exclusivity. I wish it was at least available on pc so I could try it. I like the idea of mkx/sf5 simultaneous release on pc with the console.
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I agree with that. I pretty much put away my Xbox(except when my daughter wants to watch her DVDs lol) and I chose PS3/PS4/Vita as my monthly subscription (PS+) since it encapsulates three console/platforms vs one. I have heard nothing but positive things about KI though. I have to pick my FGs since the investment for my is finite and I go where my friends go. I hope SF5 brings a lot of them back to fighting games or at least SF again.
 
Anne said:
Could always have options. I play execution heavy or complex characters in every game I play and I don't have to pour time in to get consistent results. Different things for dif people.
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Yeah, it's more about the baseline. I mean, you can play Faust or Ky vs. playing Sol and Zato in GG, 3S has Chun/Ken v. Yun, Akuma and so on. It's just better to have a simpler base line, and then have the Zatos and C.Vipers of the world for execution aficionados.
 
enzo_gt said:
So what do devs generally do? Extensive local testing in Japanese arcades (fair enough, logistically/financially their best option), early single-region arcade releases, and test online in closed, Japanese environments. There is a considerable disconnect here.
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oh my brother. Testifyyyyyy
 
Coffeeling said:
Yeah, it's more about the baseline. I mean, you can play Faust or Ky vs. playing Sol and Zato in GG, 3S has Chun/Ken v. Yun, Akuma and so on. It's just better to have a simpler base line, and then have the Zatos and C.Vipers of the world for execution aficionados.
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Sol? Sol is the easy one in Xrd lol
 
Everything about the Japanese dev process seems to indicate that they generally don't bother looking further than their current release or outside the borders of their country. Unless the product is being made for the west, as we heard in recent years, then there is little to no consideration being made for foreign markets. I think enzo's assumption are too far in the realm of wishful thinking. Which is where his disconnect originates from.


Like those Swery tweets about D4 are a perfect example. Despite all evidence available to them,a lot of people in Japan are ignorant of how the rest of the world operates.
 
Master Milk said:
So yea, I don't think the Japanese see arcade releases as local testing. It always feels like their bread and butter, while console releases are dessert. With that in mind, I don't think the death of arcades is going to be all rainbows and sunshine for fighting games. Sony happens to be paying for SFV, but will they want to shell out for Marvel 4 or SF6, or any other franchises. Is ArcSys going to still release things with no arcades? Tecmo seems to see money in home releases, but what about Namco? Gonna get a T8 or TT3 without arcades?

But I agree that the arcade scene is for the birds, but that's mainly because it's always holding up releases. If it weren't doing that, I wouldn't really care about it. And despite it screwing me over, I still don't wish it gone at the moment. So actually, I should say that I agree that there are better ways that devs could be making fighting games, as we've seen from western devs, but I don't think eastern devs would be quick on the uptake even if they were forced, like if* arcades died. As much as I hate getting games late, it would suck even more not getting them at all.

*when
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The arcade scene is important for the japanese competitive scene, and because of that it's important for the overall competitive scene because of how many players that area provides. How did Japan treat SFxT? How much talent did that game lose out on because of no arcade scene?

The online beta over location tests is a step in the right direction for SF.
 
enzo_gt said:
Yeah I only used it in Skullgirls and didn't screw around with it really and I only had bad experiences. What does that say about streamlining the online experience in general, though?

Also how does it work when two people have different frame delays?
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If two different people set their delay settings wildly different and the connection is bad there will be issues. But Skullgirls give recommend delay settings to each player, lets you make adjustments and tells you what those adjustments mean. No netcode can make pure garbage tier internet playable but at some point (with regards to the reaction of the more casual audience) people have to actually read right? At that point its on the player when all the tools are given them and they are explained no?
 
SonicFox can only beat Justin because it's online and MKX doesn't reward fundamentals because it's not SF blah-blah-blah-dismissive-crap.
EDIT: I have to say that Justin is probably the most graceful loser in the FGC. He handles losses so well.
 
sikvod00 said:
SonicFox can only beat Justin because it's online and MKX doesn't reward fundamentals because it's not SF blah-blah-blah-dismissive-crap.
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imK7VbtyLVoi9.gif
 
DRE Fei said:
I'd personally like to see more fight games use the dota/counerstrike/league model where the game is treated as a platform with a constant stream of new content as opposed to $60 sequels every 2 years.
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This is honestly the direction I always felt Smash should go in.
 
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