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[BigBadShamoo]

Good thing it's a dead game

It's far from dead it actually got a new release on the PS4, can't say the same for like UMVC3, VF, I'll even throw TTT2 in there and I love that game.

 

[Starfox327]

If SFV's links are the same or one/two frames more lenient than SFIV. Then I'm ok with that. I actually like how there's a execution barrier (1 and 2 frame links) that seperates new players/casuals and veterans.

 

[Anne]

Dawg the Touhou doujin music scene is probably large enough to suffer from marching chinamen syndrome, where music gets released faster than you have hours in the day to possibly listen to all of it

Try being into vocaloid and touhou stuff orz it's impossible.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

If SFV's links are the same or one/two frames more lenient than SFIV. Then I'm ok with that. I actually like how there's a execution barrier (1 and 2 frame links) that seperates new players/casuals and veterans.

All it separates are the people willing to sacrifice time in their lives to grind it out in a stage with white tiles.

 

[Starfox327]

All it separates are the people willing to grind it out.

Yep. Effort.

 

[Infinite]

Story mode, or tutorial mode that have fun unlocks behind it that teach you how to play and handle different situations.

I was thinking like having a megaman style tutorial in a story mode where the AI is deliberately programmed to do specific fighting game stuff like high-low mix-ups, zoning, jumping in etc. exlusively which then teaches the player how to block, get in on zoning, and anti air. Once that is establish you play through the rest of the story mode still dealing with those challenges but in tandem. I think this is a better approach as opposed to a tutorial seperate from the rest of the game because every week there's a thread on gaf where tutorials are getting bashed; people don't like turorials it seems. So if you hide the tutorial in the story mode you give incentive for it to be played and understood organically

 

[vulva]

It's far from dead it actually got a new release on the PS4, can't say the same for like UMVC3, VF, I'll even throw TTT2 in there and I love that game.

dead to me

 

[irfaanator]

dead to me

same

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Yep. Effort.

Like a levels in an MMO.

 

[Starfox327]

Like a levels in an MMO.

If you're equating execution as experience, then yeah.

 

[QisTopTier]

I was thinking like having a megaman style tutorial in a story mode where the AI is deliberately programmed to do specific fighting game stuff like high-low mix-ups, zoning, jumping in etc. exlusively which then teaches the player how to block, get in on zoning, and anti air. Once that is establish you play through the rest of the story mode still dealing with those challenges but in tandem. I think this is a better approach as opposed to a tutorial seperate from the rest of the game because every week there's a thread on gaf where tutorials are getting bashed; people don't like turorials it seems. So if you hide the tutorial in the story mode you give incentive for it to be played and understood organically

Spoiler

A mile ahead of you on this

 

[DryEyeRelief]

If you're equating execution as experience, then yeah.

I'm equating it to something that has absolutely nothing to do with playing other players.

 

[Kumubou]

I was thinking like having a megaman style tutorial in a story mode where the AI is deliberately programmed to do specific fighting game stuff like high-low mix-ups, zoning, jumping in etc. exlusively which then teaches the player how to block, get in on zoning, and anti air. Once that is establish you play through the rest of the story mode still dealing with those challenges but in tandem. I think this is a better approach as opposed to a tutorial seperate from the rest of the game because every week there's a thread on gaf where tutorials are getting bashed; people don't like turorials it seems. So if you hide the tutorial in the story mode you give incentive for it to be played and understood organically

There's two issues that I see with trying to teach these things organically: communication and difficulty balance. You may have an enemy with a specific pattern to highlight certain mechanics, but how do you communicate how that works within your game systems without beating them over the head with an info dump? There are ways to do it but I also think it's something that would need far more effort than any FG developer has ever bothered putting in.

The other is how do you tune the difficulty for something like that. An apropos example to me would be how From's action-adventure games work (DeS, DS, DS2, Bloodborne, etc.). People have a lot of trouble dealing with the combat in those games with regards to reading and reading enemy movement and attacks, and being able to properly space attacks. Never mind that the games move at a FAR slower speed than any fighting game does. People have a ton of trouble responding properly to telegraphed attacks; how the heck are they going to have any chance at even responding to blocking a 20-frame overhead?

 

[Starfox327]

I'm equating it to something that has absolutely nothing to do with playing other players.

K

 

[QisTopTier]

I'll say that learning Makoto's new midscreen bnb in BBCPE was not fun at all. Now that I have it down. GOD DAMN I LOVE DOING IT. Well I just love doing her combos period

Most fun combos in a fighter as far as I'm concerned

 

[CountBlack]

y'all gotta leave my girl Elena alone and worry about the real issues like Evil Ryu's cr. mk and Jaguar kick


shiiiiiiiiiiiiet

 

[Dahbomb]

y'all gotta leave my girl Elena alone and worry about the real issues like Evil Ryu's cr. mk and Jaguar kick

shiiiiiiiiiiiiet

Is Evil Ryu's cr.MK the problem or is it the damage that you get off of it?

The chicken/egg dilemma.

 

[BakedYams]

Elude

My bad, my English ain't cracked up to what it should be.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Story mode, or tutorial mode that have fun unlocks behind it that teach you how to play and handle different situations.

That would be ideal but I trust no developer to be able to do this. Even though Capcom has a game that does that but it has a completely different genre. Same thought behind it though.

 

[Tripon]

Random musing: I expect at least two characters to be day one DLC and revealed within a month of Spring 2016 release.

 

[Dahbomb]

Capcom can't even teach you how to play their single player games properly like RE6 and DMC.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Is Evil Ryu's cr.MK the problem or is it the damage that you get off of it?

The chicken/egg dilemma.

It has good reach and hit stun, but it's honestly not that good. It starts up in 7f which is much slower than all the other shoto' low forwards and doesn't low profile like they do either. So I end up getting blown up by a lot of things that I know I could dodge if I had Ryu or Akuma's low forward. I think it's a good move, but not one of the best in the game, not even close.

 

[Sayad]

Yep. Effort.

Effort will be rewarded all the same, it just that it will have to be spent on things other than grinding combos now.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

A shoto having a good cr.MK? No way

 

[BakedYams]

A shoto having a good cr.MK? No way

Bruh

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Effort will be rewarded all the same, it just that it will have to be spent on things other than grinding combos now.

The thing about fighting games is that you can put more effort into it than someone and still be worse.

 

[KidA Seven]

Alex Valle with SCR Prelude II.

https://twitter.com/AlexValleSF4/status/628393616004747264

So it' on the same weekend as Summer Jam (ranking event) and the Hong Kong ranking event? Now that Snake has a sponsor he should be going to Summer Jam for those points.

 

[Sayad]

The thing about fighting games is that you can put more effort into it than someone and still be worse.

This apply to just about everything.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Healing is pretty dumb imo. Feels like the kind of thing that's either dumb or worthless.

Not quite Super Rose orbs dumb tho.

 

[Dahbomb]

It has good reach and hit stun, but it's honestly not that good. It starts up in 7f which is much slower than all the other shoto' low forwards and doesn't low profile like they do either. So I end up getting blown up by a lot of things that I know I could dodge if I had Ryu or Akuma's low forward. I think it's a good move, but not one of the best in the game, not even close.

I knew most of this, hence why I posed him that rhetorical question.

Although having the exact information is always good.

 

[xCobalt]

His cr.mk alone may not be great but cr.mk x fireball is too good. True block string, combos from max distance and nearly impossible to punish. There's no reprucussion from constantly buffering a fireball after throwing out a cr.mk.

 

[Tripon]

I feel like such a noob.

You can press forward while doing a throw to help extend the range.

 

[QisTopTier]

The best thing about ArcSys games are the clash movies

 

[rookiejet]

.

Probably by not having to deal with a 20-frame overhead in the first place From's games' players will have troubles but the games doesn't try to artificially gate them behind barriers not letting them perform the solutions their intuitions give them.

It's a balance, and like not one single thing can or will appeal to all players. But I think intuitive and intelligible gameplay is the best way to design games.

 

[Papstr]

I guess the latest Rising Thunder patch improved optimization because I get a framerate that's mildly playable on my toaster, so I can't exactly do fancy stuff but I can low forward fireball dudes to death.

Game is pretty fun to play, but I keep tripping up wanting to do quarter circles and such. Edge is my favorite so far, he has a little more depth to him than I initially thought once I discovered that he can cut projectiles with S1 and gain charges from it, as well as charges carrying over between rounds.

Chel seems stronger than I expected. A few times I read/reacted to a fireball startup with an immediate jump in and she had time to recover and DP... Not sure if that's a latency issue or if the recovery on her FB is a bit too good. Strangely when I didn't press a button when jumping I had time to block the DP so perhaps it's because doing j.H gave me more air time, or extra landing recovery.

Pretty fun little game overall, but man I wish I had a decent PC to actually run it well. It probably feels better at a solid 60FPS.

 

[K.Sabot]

The raw truth about the netplay struggle.

 

[Juicebox_FGC]

The thing about fighting games is that you can put more effort into it than someone and still be worse.

This apply to just about everything.

Either Capcom (or other FG devs) puts in more effort into teaching or there has to be a massive shift in expectations and preparedness when trying a "new" fighting game.

Being good at a fighting game is no different than being good at a musical instrument. Some people practice a lot, some not at all. Some are talented at certain intricacies of the craft, others are not. These combine to form a wide valley of skill levels, from novices to masters.

Learning -how to practice- is important for both. In a nutshell, think of your performances, see where you faltered/need improvement, and focus on those aspects repeatedly in your practice. In both cases, technical study is necessary to improve very minute but usually important aspects of your future performances.

In the real world there are many, many people who have tried to learn a musical instrument who did not have the dedication to bring themselves up to an intermediate, competent level. The same is true in various aspects of life and fighting games will probably ALWAYS be the same way.

Average, target-market gamers don't look at the games they play as problems that need to be solved. They view them as entertainment, as a throwaway distraction. The thing they are most after is torn from them if they play against someone who has put in the work. Until their paradigm changes, there will only ever be two groups of people playing fighting games:

1) The people who understand the kind of investment a fighting game represents, those who have a plan for where they want to go with their skill level and strive to achieve it, regardless of hours played, technical prowess, or social consideration.

2) Everyone else.

 

[Numb]

Facing off against a single opponent with no bullshit around too.
It is a direct test of knowledge without any other team members deciding the outcome and everything is on you and how much effort you have put in. This puts a heavy burden on people that is usually not there in other competative games.

The best thing about ArcSys games are the clash movies

Always love em.

 

[rookiejet]

.

I don't believe it's simply a "work ethic" thing. Why do people practice anything at all? It's because they see the value in mastering the thing they are practicing. Ergo, it's not their fault they don't see value in your option versus something else (here, I'm talking about players who have an interest in competitive play).

 

[The Lone Dragon]

Yep. Effort.

There's effort that's enjoyable, and there's effort that's not enjoyable.

This is a recreational video game. Might be a good idea to try to shift focus toward the enjoyable, dynamic, thought-provoking, human based challenges over the mundane, repetitive, artificial, system based challenges.

There's plenty of other more interesting skills that players can be developing with that time...skills that are actually applicable to the genre as a whole, rather than just one specific combo that you have to practice over and over again (and will still miss in a tourney, because even Sako drops combos in tourneys). If top level players cannot hit their links 100% of the time (and they CAN'T), then the links are too dang hard. No one benefits from that.

EDIT: And before people cite those folk who just LOVE super hard execution, sorry...but you're simply outnumbered. A majority of the response to the SLIGHTLY looser links has been positive, if you've been following the various FGC forums.

And, believe me...people will STILL drop links in SF5 tourneys. Mark my words.

 

[Anne]

So on the subject of effort, I thought I'd share a little thing I made. This isn't to help anybody, I already put it in the right spots for that, I just want to show you what I expect a tournament level Persona player to know about fighting my character at a minimum. It's actually really complex, and I don't expect more than a small handful of people to put in that effort. Here ya go.

What's really funny is the game is quite simple, this character just happens to break the conventions so you need to use tools a bit differently vs her.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I don't believe it's simply a "work ethic" thing. Why do people practice anything at all? It's because they see the value in mastering the thing they are practicing. Ergo, it's not their fault they don't see value in your option versus something else (here, I'm talking about players who have an interest in competitive play).

Right, it's the Timmy vs Spike mentality again. It's not that Timmy doesn't recognize the benefits that practice and training add to competitive play (although there are certainly players who refuse the notion), he just doesn't care for it.

Fighting games that were popular casually tend to have content that caters to this crowd. Smash vs TTT2 as two extremes, for example.

Edit: on the topic of players who enjoy high execution characters, is there a way to reward that style of play in ways other than MAXDAMAGE combos?

 

[Astarte]

Went to a fighting game meetup today and my experience was

Getting my ass kicked in every single game/color of the rainbow was pretty great though. I really need to get back into fighting games before school wrecks me

 

[Negaduck]

Here is my analysis of Vega from the reveal thread I posted this morning in case people haven't seen that thread.

Sorry if this us all kinda common knowledge by now.

Man at first I was kinda meh about Vega and his reveal, but after watching the video a few times i'm actually pretty excited for him.

Loving the little spin move he does when he changes stances (you can see this from the first combo he does in the video at 0:16, he starts the combo with the claw and in the middle does a little spin when he puts it away and finished without the claw).

He has a few interesting new moves, the backwards claw slash that he does in the next combo, that one he actually does at the end of the combo after the stance dance, he does a target combo (at least that's what it looks like) and then has a slash move without the claw.

the next combo also has the new special (at first i thought he did a stance change but it looks like the same target combo from the end of the first series).

The next section he does a wall dive which either A: he does low enough to combo or B: they've added enough hit stun (also taken away the knockdown, possible knockdown with claw?) to continue the combo into roll which looks like it ends in the flip kick (possibly when he doesn't have the claw? might be a slash with it).

His Izuna drop was started from the ground, I wonder if that will be a command grab now rather than being part of the wall jump (or possibly like running bear grab it has two versions depending on the proximity to the opponent?).

Okay scratch that, still watching the video it looks as though EX roll does not allow you to combo but without the claw he still does the flip at the end which results in a knock down. Following that Vega does an EX wall dive which hits twice and allows him to combo into the EX wall jump (which kinda negates my proximity theory from before on the Izuna drop) which looks like his old SF4 combo (just basic hit into ex wall jump) although after he ends with the swan dive he then uses V-trigger which looks as though Vega tosses a rose at his opponent (sorry Dudley) and when it hits, Vega has his dash through follow up.

This looks like it doesn't really matter where on screen he is because at the end of the video he is across the screen and hits with his V-trigger which still results in the follow up slash which results in a knockdown (opponent is spinning in the air, not sure if this means anything in relation to the type of knockdown, techable or otherwise).

and of course ends with his super. That is hard to tell if he cancels it off of his wall jump or if the first part hits just like it did at the end of SF4.


Kinda long write up but those are the things I could take away from Vega, I like that his V-trigger might be able to blow up someone trying to hard zone him (oh god if sim is in I hope i have something to deal with that) and lets him start his Oki game again.

He looks pretty awesome and someone I might have to mess around with.

 

[mbpm1]

Here is my analysis of Vega from the reveal thread I posted this morning in case people haven't seen that thread.

Sorry if this us all kinda common knowledge by now.

His Izuna Drop is almost definitely a command grab yeah

 

[kasane]

anyone wanna play ultra?

 

[Anne]

Edit: on the topic of players who enjoy high execution characters, is there a way to reward that style of play in ways other than MAXDAMAGE combos?

I mean in UNiEL Vatista is SSS busted in theory because she can just basically lock you down forever, but the execution is so hard you barely ever get to see it.

Hell, in Persona Aigis' execution rewards her heavily in neutral/pressure compared to damage lol it's not uncommon at all. Even like EWGF gives you utility for the execution.

 

[Kadey]

anyone wanna play ultra?

Add me on steam.

 

[LegatoB]

I mean in UNiEL Vatista is SSS busted in theory because she can just basically lock you down forever, but the execution is so hard you barely ever get to see it.

Did they ever patch out that "My controller has a d-pad AND an analog stick, so, what are charge times" tech?

 

[Anne]

Did they ever patch out that "My controller has a d-pad AND an analog stick, so, what are charge times" tech?

You mean the charge partitioning stuff? Don't think so, it's how the engine works with her and I never saw it in a match.