A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
But Jackie Chan in Fists of Fire has actual Jackie Chan
TIMES 3
TIMES 3
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Fighting Games Weekly | June 10-16 | We got new fighting games! And a new Smash Bros!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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Shouta
Member
A Virtua Fighter player would say that.
Uh huh, sure.
But seriously, most characters stand out in FGs. It's up to the viewer really. 2D character design ain't any better than 3D, and SF isn't any better than KOF, etc. I mean, SF designs aren't anything special without the history and mindshare that comes with it.
You must admit that saying Tekken characters have "vastly" different movesets is a bit silly. Super Skull compared to Dormammu is a vast difference. Having different poke animations with different frame data is not.
I thought about picking TTT2 up for my BIL, but I'm not sure how much leverage he would get out of it.
That's like saying a minivan and a ferrari are the same because they have 4 wheels and doors. Tekken characters are vastly different sans shared moves because they're the same style or they're a clone character. Context is pretty important. Judo and Muay Thai are absolutely different for example.
I looked at the full movesets of the entire T6 cast.
You must admit that saying Tekken characters have "vastly" different movesets is a bit silly. Super Skull compared to Dormammu is a vast difference. Having different poke animations with different frame data is not.
I thought about picking TTT2 up for my BIL, but I'm not sure how much leverage he would get out of it.
I understand we've had this discussion before. 2D and 3D fighters are very different with how character diversity is achieved. In fact, each fighter itself is very different with how it achieves character diversity. To further your own example, the fact that Super Skrull can grab halfway across the stage unlike any other character in the game is a vast difference from the rest of the roster, for instance.
But that's not how most 3D fighters approach their diversity. We have characters in Tekken that can throw arm missiles or lasers across the stage, can teleport, etc. but that's not what's going to make them special in Tekken. Probably in a 2D fighter, it would, but 3D environments make stuff like that almost irrelevant. Different gameplay structure, different rules.
You may not be noticing these differences in Tekken yet. But once you face a lot of diverse competition, the differences start to make more sense. Each character brings its own unique moveset. And each character is not going to be played the same way by each player. In Tekken, in any given moment, you have access to a massive command list. What you use and how you use it can determine victory. You don't just have options. You have A LOT of options. How many options does Skrull have during any given moment in a match?
There are different ways of achieving diversity and different ways of making characters stand out. While things like projectiles won't matter much in Tekken but do in Marvel, stuff like 150 move command lists probably isn't suited for Marvel.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm still shocked you picked Elizabeth over Yukiko. You can't get any closer to Dormammu than that, and she has that long hair you're always talking about.
Karsticles
Member
Using your analogy, do you think it is more appropriate to call a minivan "vastly different" from a ferrari, or from a rocket ship? The context is the fighting game genre; it's appropriate to look at how diverse Tekken characters are compared to other fighting games.
I don't think 3D fighters are stuck with poor diversity, though. I just think Tekken has poor diversity. Soul Calibur, for example, has a much more diverse cast than Tekken.
This is not inherently true. Namco designs those moves to be useless, but they don't have to be in a 3D fighter. It is possible to accomplish keepaway, zoning, etc. in 3D fighters. Tekken just doesn't bother to justify anything beyond footsies.
I'm a sharp guy - I can see the differences. They're just clearly subtle differences. Also, I really hate the Tekken moveset implementation:
1) Too many pointless moves.
2) Stupid, unrepresentative names for most of them.
3) No logic to button flow.
4) Certain button combinations open up new combo ender options.
You make it sound like giving a Marvel character 150 normals wouldn't make that character strong. It would. It's not about how many moves there are, it's about the diversity within those movesets. Tekken gives you 150 different ways to punch and kick someone right next to you. Marvel gives you a wider variety of options. Hell, 150 move command lists probably aren't suited for Tekken, either.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63205946]I'm still shocked you picked Elizabeth over Yukiko. You can't get any closer to Dormammu than that, and she has that long hair you're always talking about.[/QUOTE]
Yukiko is keepaway. I player zoners. <3 long hair, though.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Soul Calibur V should have been the Marvel to Tekken's Street Fighter.
They were so close :-(
They were so close :-(
Time personally invested in a game is a factor, but good character design (from an artistic perspective) is a thing that can stand on it's own, with or without an attachment to the mechanics of the character, IMO. I really like the character designs in Darkstalkers for instance, but haven't spent hardly any time with the game at all. I played the hell out of VF5 (the disk version that came out ages ago for PS3), and I really enjoyed myself, the character design didn't do much for me.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I was saying the opposite. I really wanted them to fully embrace all the new mechanics they were adding and go nuts. Really give the old characters crazy shit so they can keep up with the new stand and trap characters.
Fuck, really blow people's minds and add cross-ups.
Passive Assassin
Member
Ryan Haaart
Karsticles
Member
Splish splash now I'm takin' a bath.
No offense but I really want to see how you come to that conclusion, though.
I need something more than, "here are 40 characters all with over 100 moves that have different frames. There is lacking diversity in there." That doesn't explain why there is a lack of diversity.
Those moves aren't completely useless either. No move is completely useless. Lasers, for example, are often used during TA combos.
1. Any and every move can be useful. There are a key set of moves each character has but that doesn't mean you should be oblivious to the rest of the command list.
2. Names don't really matter.
3. I don't know if it seems that way to you now but Tekken button flow is amazing. I often don't even have to dig through a command list to find a specific character's move. More often, I can match a certain move's animations with certain types of commands. I'm sure there are other Tekken players that will tell you the same thing.
4. I'm not sure if I understand this.
The differences aren't subtle at all. There are many things differentiating characters that I'd rather not list out. If you remember, before I had mentioned stances or even complete character differences (like how Steve plays in Tekken). Each character has strengths and weaknesses. Certain characters have more executions requirements. Certain characters have better counter hit moves. Certain characters have better launchers. Certain characters have better punishers. Certain characters have better TA's. Certain characters have better wall carries. Certain characters have better pokes. There are so many different things in play here.
Yes, 150 moves for one character in Marvel would make that character strong but it would also more than likely make that character broken. If every character in Marvel had 150 moves, that would be the definition of chaos.
call_kotaku
Member
It's because Tekken characters all use their hands and feet to fight (besides the animals and Yoshi I guess), but you can identify SC characters by their weapons.
I find most of the SC character designs to be pretty boring but they're very iconic.
I find most of the SC character designs to be pretty boring but they're very iconic.
lol
I'm not Hindu.
Using hands/feet vs. swords changes something? That one simple fact can affect character diversity? Well, news to me.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63207076]I was saying the opposite. I really wanted them to fully embrace all the new mechanics they were adding and go nuts. Really give the old characters crazy shit so they can keep up with the new stand and trap characters.
Fuck, really blow people's minds and add cross-ups.[/QUOTE]
I want the exact opposite. If I mind-rayed Namco and got Daishi's job for SC6, here's what I do on the plot and mechanics
SC5- keep the system mostly intact, remove Just Guard. Try to make movelists as large as SC2's. I would add G+K throws to provide a true three-way choice like VF.
Roster: most of the SC1-3 roster and Viola (main character, see below)
Storyline: Viola tries to go back in time and fix mistakes, but screws up and ends up in an alt universe, relives the story up to SC3.
Fuck, really blow people's minds and add cross-ups.[/QUOTE]
I want the exact opposite. If I mind-rayed Namco and got Daishi's job for SC6, here's what I do on the plot and mechanics
SC5- keep the system mostly intact, remove Just Guard. Try to make movelists as large as SC2's. I would add G+K throws to provide a true three-way choice like VF.
Roster: most of the SC1-3 roster and Viola (main character, see below)
Storyline: Viola tries to go back in time and fix mistakes, but screws up and ends up in an alt universe, relives the story up to SC3.
Karsticles
Member
If you have eyes, I think it's obvious. I don't know what more I can say than the very thorough explanations I have given several times in the past, all of which I know you have read.
Combos don't justify moves IMO.
Also, many of the moves aren't really moves, but rather are varieties of pre-set follow-ups listed as their own moves. I'm inclined to say that Tekken isn't a game where characters have over 100 moves on average, it's just a game with a very poorly streamlined movelist for its characters. (Example: LP, LP, RP and LP, RP, RP would be different "moves" under the Tekken system; it's just poor organization).1. Any and every move can be useful. There are a key set of moves each character has but that doesn't mean you should be oblivious to the rest of the command list.
2. Names don't really matter.
3. I don't know if it seems that way to you now but Tekken button flow is amazing. I often don't even have to dig through a command list to find a specific character's move. More often, I can match a certain move's animations with certain types of commands. I'm sure there are other Tekken players that will tell you the same thing.
4. I'm not sure if I understand this.
"If you play Tekken for a long time the flow makes sense" is the opposite of the game having good flow. There's definitely no consistency between characters. I'm sure you learn the animations after watching a while, but this argument is as ridiculous as the BB player who said the combos were intuitive because he could do Lambda's bnb on his first try after watching people do it for months in competitive play. It just misses the point entirely.
Those are all subtle. They're like the differences between Blanka and E. Honda. Subtle.
Most of the moves would probably be redundant.
SolarPowered
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63206381]Soul Calibur V should have been the Marvel to Tekken's Street Fighter.
They were so close :-([/QUOTE]
It is the Mahvel to Tekken's Street Fighter and that is why it's in this state. Not every game has such a rabid fanbase to keep it alive and healthy.
They were so close :-([/QUOTE]
It is the Mahvel to Tekken's Street Fighter and that is why it's in this state. Not every game has such a rabid fanbase to keep it alive and healthy.
call_kotaku
Member
I mean on a superficial level, since we're calling KOF characters boring now.
C'mon, we all know we're just talking out of our asses about gameplay diversity (VF has no character variety because everyone can spam dickpunches).
Karsticles
Member
I don't own TTT2, though.
I never said that there's no diversity. I said there's less than in a game like Marvel. How anyone can not think this is clear and obvious is beyond me. "Subtle" is just a nicer way of saying "less". You have to focus on the subtleties because there are little to no large differences between the characters. When all you have is subtlety to look at, that's when you know the diversity is weak. Marvel has subtle differences between characters, too, but the gameplay is so diverse that it's not the focus of discussion like it is with Tekken.
"God's Beard!"
Member
It's also a half finished game.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Combos do justify moves. That's why there is such thing as filler in the first place.
Honestly the same problem in Tekken you see in other 3D games when it comes to movelists and moves. But this is mainly a 2D player problem if anything.
Honestly the same problem in Tekken you see in other 3D games when it comes to movelists and moves. But this is mainly a 2D player problem if anything.
Karsticles
Member
I have to pay for a Tekken game? This deal is rotten!
Actually, I don't even know if Sayah has AE. That would be the deciding game, since I would be free to Sayah in TTT2, and Sayah is free to me in Marvel.
I am sticking with Parasoul, but I also use Shuma-Gorath in Marvel. Somehow, despite hating charge characters, I ended up playing one in my two favorite fighting games. So I figured I could use Guile to help me become better at using them.
SolarPowered
Member
Almost done with Demon's Souls. Then I can get back into Skullgirls and Vampire Savior...
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63211856]It's also a half finished game.[/QUOTE]
Yeah...
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63186606]I thought Karst would've played Sagat or Rose over Guile.[/QUOTE]
Don't know if he responded to it, but he might be trying to wrap his head around Guile to learn more about charge characters. He was playing Parasoul and Painwheel in SG. Don't know if he stuck with Parasoul.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63211856]It's also a half finished game.[/QUOTE]
Yeah...
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";63186606]I thought Karst would've played Sagat or Rose over Guile.[/QUOTE]
Don't know if he responded to it, but he might be trying to wrap his head around Guile to learn more about charge characters. He was playing Parasoul and Painwheel in SG. Don't know if he stuck with Parasoul.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Why don't you just skip the two obvious games and make them play AE
Not really, no. Explained below.
Aside from the fact that lasers can be useful outside of combos as well (such as a great tool for punishing raw tag switches from a distance), why wouldn't combos justify moves? Lasers can particularly be very useful for wall carries as demonstrated here.
Different strings often can have different followups. It's why they are listed separately. From Lili's d+2,2, for instance, I can do d+2,2,3 or d+2,2,4. Or from 3, I can go into back turn or do 3,1 or 3,2,3. It wouldn't make any sense to have these listed as one move.
Each limb is attached to each face button. And depending on which limb you are using for a certain move, it becomes easier to guess which commands you have to input to do that move without having the commands right in front of you. You don't have to be playing Tekken for a long time to know this.
Having good launchers or good pokes or good wall carries is not a subtle difference. To give an example: If I'm Hwoarang and I duck most of the punishable low attacks from other characters in the game, then I know I don't have as much potential as other characters to dish out proper WS punishment. This one single thing can play a huge role in the dynamics of a match with a Hwoarang player in it.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I'd beat them both at smash bros. tho
"God's Beard!"
Member
Uggh, not going to EVO for the first time in 3 years is killing my interest in Marvel. I've been playing more Virtua Fighter and Jojo's lately. I even played AE today for some reason.
Karsticles
Member
Then no more can be said.
Why are you talking about TTT2 when I am talking about T6?
Combos don't justify moves because moves should always have a purpose in the neutral. A "combo only" move might as well not exist at all, as another move with a purpose in the neutral could replace it in the combo.
That's not the situation I'm talking about.
You don't have to play for a long time to know that fact, but to actually put it to practice takes a lot of time.
Very subtle.
Feel free to give that statement a run when the game gets released. Smash will probably become my main game unless it gets Brawl'd.
We played matches in AE. I faced your Sagat. I must be a forgettable player. :lol
Most embarrassing gaming moment ever for me. hahaha.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I'm probably not going to even play that game because I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be as bad if not worse than Brawl.
Looks pretty though so there's that.
Ugly ass brawl
Looks pretty though so there's that.
Ugly ass brawl
SolarPowered
Member
Let's hope Namco gives everyone at Nintendo the backhand and tells them they'll handle online.
^
I have to sleep Karst. Will have to discontinue this here but I'll keep up another time this topic comes up.
I haven't played Smash Bros. in a long while but I would like to brag and say I have no doubt I could beat a lot of people in it.
hahahahahahaha.
Panda with his posts.
I have to sleep Karst. Will have to discontinue this here but I'll keep up another time this topic comes up.
I haven't played Smash Bros. in a long while but I would like to brag and say I have no doubt I could beat a lot of people in it.
hahahahahahaha.
Panda with his posts.
Karsticles
Member
It's being co-developed by Namco, so you can rest assured that it will be good.
I played a ton of people that night. I don't remember anyone of who I fought - nothing personal. It was a stream of people excited to beat up on me as I played the game for the first time.
How does that even happen? ;-P
When I talk about Tekken to friends, I look behind me to see if you're sneaking up to argue.^
I have to sleep Karst. Will have to discontinue this here but I'll keep up another time this topic comes up.
SixMachine
Member
I know this was on the previous page but I believe if Megaman was ported over, he wouldn't be too bad in MVC3 (If his beat and drill super was as good as MVC1 that would be cool). He actually does well against the likes of Mags and Storm also isn't an impossible matchup because he can snipe her if you see her hailstorm and he can stop the momentum on those tri jumps coming in. By no means was he godly or even close to the top dogs but by the way MVC3 works I could see him causing people rage within the game just by his zoning and he actually had really fast normals like his lk. Even though I think his design could have been better because there was no point of having to call Eddie to get different specials, because it's not like he had a huge movelist or anything (only 3 freaking special weapons too), they just did it to give Eddie a cameo. If he could do something like setup a rockball and a leafshield without calling him it would already make him better. The reason why I brought it up is because I didn't touch MVC2 for a long time, then last month at a local monthly we decided to boot up MVC2 and I remembered how much fun the game was. I also remembered how fun Tron was. I like her in MVC2 better than MVC3 actually because she just feels that much faster and her drill is pretty awesome. The hilarious damage on her projectile assist is also pretty much a reason just to use her.
Passive Assassin
Member
OH MY FUCKING GOD TRIFORCE IS ON THE MIC ON WNF
Passive Assassin
Member
Option select commercial break.
BlackClouds
Member
SuperRip
SuperRip
When did Superman start spamming somersault kicks?
What you do then is try to find a game they both don't play. Vanguard Princess to the death?