Support NeoGAF

[GuardianE]

Best thing out of all this?

Perfect.

 

[oneida]

toryuken roll call?

 

[fader]

Best thing out of all this?

oh god im dead

 

[hitsugi]

Is Max part of the FGC?

If you play fighting games and participate in the community, then you are a part of the "FGC." It is a fairly straightforward category to fall in.

That said, Max's self-proclaimed "hype man" status is a real thing and it's how he is in person as well. Not so much about being the best at any fighting game, but he sure as hell enjoys them.

PL's attitude was never great, and getting bopped repeatedly by Sonicfox sure isn't helping him maintain any kind of composure. Oh well.

 

[vulva]

toryuken roll call?

Yo

 

[Karsticles]

You don't like street fighter 4 but when you do play you pick blanka. If a patch came out and blanka received significant buffs, do you think you'd mess around and check them out?

I might. It would depend on whether the patch did something that made Blanka matches less turtle-y and more dynamic and fluid. That's my biggest issue with playing Blanka - matches are often just so stale. So if they patched in something like chip damage on normals (to give an extreme example), then I would definitely check him out. Or if they made all Blanka balls safe - that would change the pacing of the game tremendously.

If you mean something like they double his damage, which is a massive buff, I can't see myself even downloading the patch. I don't play not because I can't win, but because I'm not having fun. Double damage would be the same game - I would need thorough gameplay adjustments that make my experience more amiable.

I agree with him for most games, but not with Xrd.

Hmm. I feel like that game is in my perspective's favor. I've lost to Axls and other "weak" characters just because they are better than me.

Yeah this is not true at all. People don't like to lose, even whatever minor perceived slights and nerfs will create real or imagined problems. Now that doesn't mean that on a casual level these problems are not solvable with more time and practice, but tier lists do matter even if it is just psychological.

I agree tier lists have a severe psychological impact, which is why I try to discourage tier list discussion in fighting game threads until the game has been out for a while.

 

[vulva]

I might. It would depend on whether the patch did something that made Blanka matches less turtle-y and more dynamic and fluid. That's my biggest issue with playing Blanka - matches are often just so stale. So if they patched in something like chip damage on normals (to give an extreme example), then I would definitely check him out. Or if they made all Blanka balls safe - that would change the pacing of the game tremendously.

If you mean something like they double his damage, which is a massive buff, I can't see myself even downloading the patch. I don't play not because I can't win, but because I'm not having fun. Double damage would be the same game - I would need thorough gameplay adjustments that make my experience more amiable.


Hmm. I feel like that game is in my perspective's favor. I've lost to Axls and other "weak" characters just because they are better than me.


I agree tier lists have a severe psychological impact, which is why I try to discourage tier list discussion in fighting game threads until the game has been out for a while.

So given that response, I can see that you do understand the appeal of a character you like in a game you don't love getting buffed. Conversely, if every character but blanka received nerfs but blanka stayed the same then I bet you wouldn't care to try the patch. Sometimes new or improved tools are enough to reignite someone's interest in a game. It's shallow, sure, but still a valid reason to be interested in trying the game again.

 

[oneida]

Yo

+vulva
+essay
+AAK

blackule u in?

 

[commanderpepper]

Rip's stream title is hilarious.

 

[Karsticles]

So given that response, I can see that you do understand the appeal of a character you like in a game you don't love getting buffed. Conversely, if every character but blanka received nerfs but blanka stayed the same then I bet you wouldn't care to try the patch. Sometimes new or improved tools are enough to reignite someone's interest in a game. It's shallow, sure, but still a valid reason to be interested in trying the game again.

I completely understand all of that, but I don't think it necessarily relates to tier lists. The frame of reference is a change to my character my character, not an improvement on his place in the tier list. For example, EVERYONE in Street Fighter could get buffs, and Blanka could be bottom tier but more fun to play, and I would be more inclined to try the changes out than if he was tippity-top tier but boring. So, I agree with your basic thought process, but I don't see it as relating to my initial claim.

 

[Kumubou]

Frankly, I kind of wonder if tier lists matter more at lower levels of play, insofar that a character with very strong tools (especially easy ones) is going to be extremely oppressive, especially since new players are not going to have their own understanding of the system mechanics or their own character's tools to deal with it.

I think thinking of tier lists and match-ups as a single entity is incorrect -- they're really on a continuum that changes as players get better, and it's not just the theoretical ideal play match-ups that matter.

That and playing characters with no real tools to use is almost universally an ass experience that's not worth anyone's time.

 

[Lostconfused]

toryuken roll call?

Actually signed up for two games, so 0-2, and then 0-2 again. Looking forward to it.

Frankly, I kind of wonder if tier lists matter more at lower levels of play, insofar that a character with very strong tools (especially easy ones) is going to be extremely oppressive, especially since new players are not going to have their own understanding of the system mechanics or their own character's tools to deal with it.

Depends on the game and the character. If the character is high and easy to use/exploit their strengths then yes it matters. If the character is high tier and is hard to use, new players don't understand their strengths then they are more likely to actually do worse? Mainly because they have no idea how to exploit the strengths while the rest of the player base learns to fight against the top tier.

 

[vulva]

I completely understand all of that, but I don't think it necessarily relates to tier lists. The frame of reference is a change to my character my character, not an improvement on his place in the tier list. For example, EVERYONE in Street Fighter could get buffs, and Blanka could be bottom tier but more fun to play, and I would be more inclined to try the changes out than if he was tippity-top tier but boring. So, I agree with your basic thought process, but I don't see it as relating to my initial claim.

There's a difference between buffs being a reason to play and tier whoring. This came from someone asking if a character was buffed, if so they'd try the game again. That's all. I was just trying to keep a scope of why buffs to a character in a game one doesn't play would be appealing. I used you to help illustrate it because I could relate your taste for blanka and distaste for sf4 perfectly to exemplify the point.

 

[alstein]

Maybe but you have to have an ounce of self-awareness and realize that when your business is entertainment, entertainers get paid.

CMPunk ain't in the pro sports business, you know? Being athletic is part of the job requirement but that's to get in the door, being entertaining is the business.

Nobody's making the esports competitor get into the entertainment side of the game. But choosing to get into streaming and then complaining that it's an entertainment game is...dumb.

Well, Punk sorta is now since he switched over to UFC.

Paid competitive events do toe the line to a degree between competition and entertainment. Some folks aren't naturally entertaining.

BTW I wasn't saying I'm hating on Max- watching hypeman streams isn't my thing, but it doesn't hurt me if others do. I was saying I understood why PL was being a hater.

 

[Karsticles]

Frankly, I kind of wonder if tier lists matter more at lower levels of play, insofar that a character with very strong tools (especially easy ones) is going to be extremely oppressive, especially since new players are not going to have their own understanding of the system mechanics or their own character's tools to deal with it.

I think thinking of tier lists and match-ups as a single entity is incorrect -- they're really on a continuum that changes as players get better, and it's not just the theoretical ideal play match-ups that matter.

That and playing characters with no real tools to use is almost universally an ass experience that's not worth anyone's time.

I think it depends on the ease of use of character. Yang and Wolverine take but a pulse to play well and crush an opponent with, but C. Viper (in either game) is a very technical character, and no one is going to make her show off her tier level without a lot of skill. A character like Wolverine being top tier is harmful because newbies will flock to him for easy wins.

There's a difference between buffs being a reason to play and tier whoring. This came from someone asking if a character was buffed, if so they'd try the game again. That's all. I was just trying to keep a scope of why buffs to a character in a game one doesn't play would be appealing. I used you to help illustrate it because I could relate your taste for blanka and distaste for sf4 perfectly to exemplify the point.

Ah. I wasn't aware that the conversation started with a different context - thank you for explaining.

 

[vulva]

What's the final word on Potemkin's buffs/nerfs from this patch?

I may jump back in for more fun if they gave him some decent buffs. Pulling me away from MKX has been rough though.

I think it depends on the ease of use of character. Yang and Wolverine take but a pulse to play well and crush an opponent with, but C. Viper (in either game) is a very technical character, and no one is going to make her show off her tier level without a lot of skill. A character like Wolverine being top tier is harmful because newbies will flock to him for easy wins.


Ah. I wasn't aware that the conversation started with a different context - thank you for explaining.

The quoted post above is what started this all

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I've seen a lot of twitch streamers sub to each other's channels. While it's a nice gesture to support each other, the real winner is Twitch getting half of those sub fees. lol

In other news, Bum is streaming MKX. Overdrive UMVC3 tournament to follow. http://www.twitch.tv/bum1six3

 

[Karsticles]

The quoted post above is what started this all

Ah, I see.

On the note of MKX, I want to buy, I just need the netcode to get fixed, and maybe 20% off the game.

 

[vulva]

Blackule: if your cousin can't make it, wanna be a team for the team tournament in Friday before TRK?

 

[Mr. X]

You're fgc if you produce content or compete/travel.
If you just consume the media, you're fans.
Join your local scene everyone!

 

[Master Milk]

so because of the tier talk i remembered that i bought bb whenever it came out. i haven't touched it because i don't have a stick for ps4 yet

the very first thing i tried in training mode, just to get used to playing on pad for a bit, didn't work, so i'm not looking forward to this version of the game already

#PutPlatinumInADifferentGame

 

[vulva]

You're fgc if you produce content or compete/travel.
If you just consume the media, you're fans.
Join your local scene everyone!

What if I join a clan?

 

[oneida]

Actually signed up for two games, so 0-2, and then 0-2 again. Looking forward to it.


Depends on the game and the character. If the character is high and easy to use/exploit their strengths then yes it matters. If the character is high tier and is hard to use, new players don't understand their strengths then they are more likely to actually do worse? Mainly because they have no idea how to exploit the strengths while the rest of the player base learns to fight against the top tier.

what games?

 

[Mr. X]

What if I join a clan?

Is it the Wu?

 

[irfaanator]

What if I join a clan?

You mean you arent apart of the anbu clan on psn

 

[vulva]

Is it the Wu?

Would but they're for the kids

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Does being in the FGC mean that you only play fighting games? That you must support every event by not "streaming" against it? Can you play fighting games a lot, have some fans that watch those streams, and then play Chrono Trigger and have fans that watch that too? Hell, multitwitch.tv exists for a reason. Pretty easy to watch multiple streams. Heck - maybe having people who crossover into other games might expose folks to FGs that normally wouldn't. Must he be a gateway 24/7?



That's not a false equivalency at all. ChrisG streams LoL - he might stream it during a tournament. If Aris streams himself playing FF15 when it comes out because he likes the game, does that make him impure all of a sudden? You're holding Max to a higher standard because he hasn't "proven" himself; which is a load of crap. Someone who plays 10-20 hours of FGs a week on a consistent basis online and creates videos about said games would be considered a member of any other game's community. There's no purity test for being a member of the FGC.

EDIT: My apologies for being a little frustrated - but I don't like this idea that people have to pass some kind of purity test in order to be a "member" of the FGC. The FGC is a community of people who like fighting games and play them. They don't have to play competitively, or think in a hive mind, or not have other interests, or have Fighting Games be in part of a rotation of games to play. We wonder why the FGC sort of sits stagnant and doesn't grow and is pretty immature for a community - I think having an elitist view on what constitutes a FGC member accounts for a large part of that.

I, personally, don't care about being part of the "fgc" club. Especially since my interest in this predates when the term FGC was popularized. When it comes to the topic of Max's legitimacy, I find that is brought up more by his fans than anyone else. Imagine a guy nudging you with his shoulder, whispering, "Max is one of us, he plays fighting games like you and me!" Which leads to associations like, throwing a grand at him to play an RPG... as a resolution to tournaments not having good payout. It's quite a jump.


Your words:
"For me it's also a matter of FGC growth. I don't think Max was nearly as big at the time when this happened; and while its awesome that these people do the streams and play games for the love of the game - it isn't sustainable when there is not some money coming in somehow. It's the most depressing part of the FGC - you see the hunger and the skill and the tenacity and the hard work, but everyone sort of expects them to do it for free, and then we wonder why the scene doesn't grow. We keep wanting OTHER people to put that money in."

Like you use the word scene here. What scene are you talking about? Max's stream chat? The youtube celeberty scene? twitchcon?

 

[Juicebox_FGC]

Juicebox:

In one of our previous conversations, you made a comment regarding Xrd that's stuck with me. You called it too "specific". I've thought a lot about what you could possibly mean by that to not much avail. Would you mind going into more detail in regards to that?

Let me start by describing some things from KOF13. With very few exceptions:

Normals:
- your close C or D (or both) have quick startup
- crouching B is a low
- standing CD has good range

Combos follow the format:
- one or more normals -> command normal xx special move, command normal is often omitted

Projectiles:
- A version travels slower, recovers faster than C version

Meter:
- You have a combo with an EX special that is stronger than a combo with a 1bar super
- You have an HD combo that involves looping certain special moves

These things are not always true for each character, but there is a certain norm that exists with what your attacks and moves do that it is absolutely there for people who have studied the whole game.
---------
What are the "norms" involving normals/combos/etc. for Xrd?

To rephrase the question:

If you ignore universal mechanics like burst and RCs, what carries over as you learn different characters in Xrd?

I call the game "specific" because I believe the answer is "little to none".

 

[Seyavesh]

What if I join a clan?

welcome to the empire, my friend

 

[Mr. X]

Would but they're for the kids

If they arent Wu, they can get fucked.

 

[Onemic]

Juicebox:

In one of our previous conversations, you made a comment regarding Xrd that's stuck with me. You called it too "specific". I've thought a lot about what you could possibly mean by that to not much avail. Would you mind going into more detail in regards to that?



I don't want to come across as an annoyance but would you mind humoring me?

.

Of course it depends on who you play but there are characters in there where their strength isnt hidden in top play only. Elphelt and Sin are probably the best examples of this.

EDIT: rereading your point again, I agree. Although I do think that chracter strength in Xrd isnt contained only to high level play, a casual players success generally shouldnt be changed by the affect of a buff/nerf. At least in low level play. Mid-level it's a bit more apparent.

 

[hitsugi]

You're fgc if you produce content or compete/travel.
If you just consume the media, you're fans.
Join your local scene everyone!

Where's the middle ground, or the other 90% of players that just play online and post on forums?

 

[Karsticles]

I call the game "specific" because I believe the answer is "little to none".

Wouldn't that follow for all ASW games?

Ideally, what do you think should carry over between characters within a fighter? What fighters do you think have the right amount of carry-over, to little, or (if possible) too much?

 

[sixteen-bit]

welcome to the empire, my friend

This looks so photoshopped, but it probably isn't

 

[MormaPope]

You're fgc if you produce content or compete/travel.
If you just consume the media, you're fans.
Join your local scene everyone!

This is incredibly easy to say depending on where you live.

Making FGC a specific term rather than a general one that encompasses a ton of shit is dumb. Reminds me of the debates about what constitutes art. If you dedicate any large sum of time into fighting games, or rather, if fighting games as a whole is a main hobby, you're part of the FGC.

Imagine someone saying smugly "Yeah, I'm in the FGC."

Corny as hell.

 

[Juicebox_FGC]

Wouldn't that follow for all ASW games?

Ideally, what do you think should carry over between characters within a fighter? What fighters do you think have the right amount of carry-over, to little, or (if possible) too much?

Yes it would! That's the biggest gameplay reason for why I don't enjoy ASW games.
---
There isn't an ideal, I think. This is just a matter of taste.

 

[Lostconfused]

what games?

Xrd and P4AU, because those are the only two I put more than half an hour into.

Well Uniel would be on that list as well, but nothing about it grabbed my attention.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

If you dedicate any large sum of time into fighting games, or rather, if fighting games as a whole is a main hobby, you're part of the FGC.

can i do that but opt out

 

[mbpm1]

Imagine someone saying smugly "Yeah, I'm in the FGC."

Corny as hell.

"We are the FGC. And you are not."

 

[TheChits]

Smug streaming
http://www.twitch.tv/teampienyc

 

[hitsugi]

This is incredibly easy to say depending on where you live.

Making FGC a specific term rather than a general one that encompasses a ton of shit is dumb. Reminds me of the debates about what constitutes art. If you dedicate any large sum of time into fighting games, or rather, if fighting games as a whole is a main hobby, you're part of the FGC.

Imagine someone saying smugly "Yeah, I'm in the FGC."

Corny as hell.

You hit the nail on the head here, but, unfortunately, that term is here to stay.

can i do that but opt out

Yes... just don't put "FGC" all over everything you do / say and you'll be all right. I guess. Probably not. The term is too broad and literally just means fighting game community so that's kind of hard to escape?

 

[oneida]

Xrd and P4AU, because those are the only two I put more than half an hour into.

Well Uniel would be on that list as well, but nothing about it grabbed my attention.

really? I've been fiddling with uniel and I think the GRD system is super neat!

 

[Lostconfused]

really? I've been fiddling with uniel and I think the GRD system is super neat!

I am not a fighting game player, so I go buy things like aesthetics, character designs, ah how fun is it to mash buttons, stuff like that. I judge things from a scrub point of view, not based on actual quality of the game, the mechanics in it, overall design. So yeah I didn't like it, but my opinion on it holds no weight. I mean people love SF4, but I don't.

Actually I just have no one to play with, except the one person that beat me so badly that I decided to not touch the game again.

 

[Kimosabae]

If you ignore universal mechanics like burst and RCs, what carries over as you learn different characters in Xrd?

I call the game "specific" because I believe the answer is "little to none".

Actually surprised this. Have you gone through the tutorial/mission mode? There's a lot and not all of them are obvious general systems mechanics. I'll go more in-depth when I have some time.

 

[mbpm1]

Yes... just don't put "FGC" all over everything you do / say and you'll be all right. I guess. Probably not. The term is too broad and literally just means fighting game community so that's kind of hard to escape?

FGC emojis
FGC conventions
FGC restaurants

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Yes... just don't put "FGC" all over everything you do / say and you'll be all right. I guess. Probably not. The term is too broad and literally just means fighting game community so that's kind of hard to escape?

I think you should because people will donate to you for causes completely not related to you.


Donate to FGC|Steve Aoki. He plays street fighter and it's for fgc growth, whatever that means.

 

[Master Milk]

If you ignore universal mechanics like burst and RCs, what carries over as you learn different characters in Xrd?

If you were to play, how many/which characters would you be looking to learn?

 

[Compbros]

This is incredibly easy to say depending on where you live.

Making FGC a specific term rather than a general one that encompasses a ton of shit is dumb. Reminds me of the debates about what constitutes art. If you dedicate any large sum of time into fighting games, or rather, if fighting games as a whole is a main hobby, you're part of the FGC.

Imagine someone saying smugly "Yeah, I'm in the FGC."

Corny as hell.

I disagree, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. How can someone be a part of the community simply by dedicating a large some of time to it? I've put dozens, if not hundreds of hours into The Last of Us Multiplayer but I wouldn't say I'm part of TLoU community. I've put dozens of hours into CoD: AW but I couldn't name you a single "pro" player and I don't interact with members of the community more than just joining a game and playing so, again, I don't believe I'm part of that community.

 

[kingofthedead45]

Yes ellie we really are the FGC.

 

[mbpm1]

Yes ellie we really are the FGC.

lmao