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Fighting Games Weekly | May 4-10 | WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!

alstein

Member
Let me start by describing some things from KOF13. With very few exceptions:


I call the game "specific" because I believe the answer is "little to none".

The specifics in GG aren't character-based, they're system-based. The idea of the system is to allow characters to be that specific. It's a philosophy.

On one end you have games like GG and Vampire, and on the other, games like KOF and VF.

Both present unique design challenges.
 

Onemic

Member
I disagree, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. How can someone be a part of the community simply by dedicating a large some of time to it? I've put dozens, if not hundreds of hours into The Last of Us Multiplayer but I wouldn't say I'm part of TLoU community. I've put dozens of hours into CoD: AW but I couldn't name you a single "pro" player and I don't interact with members of the community more than just joining a game and playing so, again, I don't believe I'm part of that community.

Id say if you play and interact with the community youre part of the FGC. If you're a stream monster then you're part of the FGC. Just because you dont play locals doesnt make you not apart of it.
 

mbpm1

Member
Id say if you play and interact with the community youre part of the FGC. If you're a stream monster then you're part of the FGC. Just because you dont play locals doesnt make you not apart of it.

What if you play but don't interact
 

Onemic

Member
What if you play but don't interact

Depends. If you play casually and know nothing about what's going on in the community, then I wouldnt really consider you part of it.

Ive put a bunch of hours into CS:GO but I wouldnt consider myself part of that community at all, because I dont interact with the community whatsoever, besides casual play here and there. I know nothing about what goes on even though I play the game.
 

Zissou

Member
Let me start by describing some things from KOF13. With very few exceptions:

Normals:
- your close C or D (or both) have quick startup
- crouching B is a low
- standing CD has good range

Combos follow the format:
- one or more normals -> command normal xx special move, command normal is often omitted

Projectiles:
- A version travels slower, recovers faster than C version

Meter:
- You have a combo with an EX special that is stronger than a combo with a 1bar super
- You have an HD combo that involves looping certain special moves

These things are not always true for each character, but there is a certain norm that exists with what your attacks and moves do that it is absolutely there for people who have studied the whole game.
---------
What are the "norms" involving normals/combos/etc. for Xrd?

To rephrase the question:

If you ignore universal mechanics like burst and RCs, what carries over as you learn different characters in Xrd?

I call the game "specific" because I believe the answer is "little to none".

I do think in general Xrd is more specific (going by your definition) than KOF or many other games, but there is some rhyme and reason to how things work across characters. I do agree though- Arcsys design kind of forces you to spend hours in the lab with a character before can play them well enough to understand if you wanna actually play them.
 
What if you play but don't interact
You're indirectly a part of it, much as I am a part of western imperialism by going to work every day.

Yes it would! That's the biggest gameplay reason for why I don't enjoy ASW games.
---
There isn't an ideal, I think. This is just a matter of taste.
I feel like less overlap is less ideal. I got very frustrated trying to learn BlazBlue because "trying" a character took multiple hours of my time. Marvel, which is great at having a lot of overlap, takes a few minutes to get the inputs down. Then you get to blow stuff up and have fun. I actually consider Marvel and Smash to be close to ideal fighting games conceptually for this reason. They succeed at having high transferability while also maintaining a diverse and interesting cast to experiment with.
 

mbpm1

Member
Depends. If you play casually and know nothing about what's going on in the community, then I wouldnt really consider you part of it.

Ive put a bunch of hours into CS:GO but I wouldnt consider myself part of that community at all, because I dont interact with the community whatsoever, besides casual play here and there. I know nothing about what goes on even though I play the game.

You're indirectly a part of it, much as I am a part of western imperialism by going to work every day..


Both these answers seem pretty good to me. Hm.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I jumped a bit late into this conversation of "balance changes resulting in rekindling someone's interest in a game" but I will start with this:

Frankly, I kind of wonder if tier lists matter more at lower levels of play, insofar that a character with very strong tools (especially easy ones) is going to be extremely oppressive, especially since new players are not going to have their own understanding of the system mechanics or their own character's tools to deal with it.

I think thinking of tier lists and match-ups as a single entity is incorrect -- they're really on a continuum that changes as players get better, and it's not just the theoretical ideal play match-ups that matter.

That and playing characters with no real tools to use is almost universally an ass experience that's not worth anyone's time.

It's really because there are 2 different tier lists (or 3 if you want to be even more specific):

*Tier list at "average" skill level
*Tier list at "near peak human" skill level
*Tier list at "theory craft" level


The first one is for your average/casual player. In this tier list, characters with obviously easy to abuse tools are clearly better especially if they are easy to execute. Obvious example is Hulk in UMVC3. Hulk is a noob slayer and even online is essentially a "top tier" character. At the highest level of human play Hulk just barely gets top 8 at majors, not quite good enough to win a large scale major. On the opposite side, Morrigan is not that great at the average/casual level because her fly cancels require execution that is beyond the average player. Plus she does low damage in combos where as Hulk has among the easiest combos in the game that lead into a dead character. This is also where Vanilla Sentinel was the best character because of his st.S and easy mode damage.

The 2nd one is the tier list that most people use and is the one that is used for competitive play in fighting games. This tier list doesn't apply to your average player, only to the top level of play. Execution is a factor but not as big as it is in the first category. A difficult to execute character can be top tier like Morrigan over a easy execution character like Hulk.

The 3rd tier list is pretty much never used and just used more as a proof of concept. In it you see stuff like C.Viper UMVC3 as the best character in the game because it takes execution out of the equation. If someone can perfectly execute a character at all times at frame perfect level then that character is godlike (like Viper). However, human begins are not robots and they can't always do a bunch of inputs in a short time with great accuracy or make optimum decisions all the time. Hence why this type of tier list is not really useful or really accurate for a game which HUMANS play.

We are just going to ignore the 3rd type of tier list and focus on the first two. Most balance changes that companies make are geared towards the second category HOWEVER you will always see companies make some changes in games that are geared towards the first category. I can make numerous examples of these and I am sure everyone has examples that they can think of. It's stuff like nerfing Meepo in DOTA 2 despite him not being used in the competitive scene just because he dominated pub games. It's stuff like nerfing Vanilla Sentinel when he was largely irrelevant in that game at top tier level but destroyed casuals even your average player.

For casual players, the changes at that level matter a lot. For top players, changing Dante's moves from rekka to single input doesn't make him a better character in THEIR category of tier rankings but that is a "buff" for the average player and makes them more likely to use the character. And if changes like that are more likely for them to use that character, it makes it more likely that someone is more interested in the game if they are a Dante fan.

Nowadays these balance changes are becoming more and more important due to the advent of streaming and fighting games becoming more of a spectator thing. People want to see the character of their choice being represented but that's not going to happen if they aren't strong enough. If you are an up and coming fighting game player and you want to learn a character who is deemed "low tier" in that game then you are shit out of luck because you will have nothing to look at, nothing to strive towards. When balance changes come out, you want buffs to your character not only because it impacts the way you play the character but because you want to see that character played by the pros so you can learn from them.

A lot of the times the changes don't even have to do with buffs vs nerfs... it's really about making a character feel more accessible, flow better or have more tools to make the character more interesting for the average player. Or it can be quality of life changes to the character. Stuff like making Guile's cr.LP have one more frame of hit stun so that his basic combo becomes a 2 frame link rather than a 2 frame link (a big change for the average player who may or may not use plinking). This change doesn't really fundamentally raise Guile in the tier lists (of the 2nd category) but it makes him easier to play for average players.


TL:DR version: Different tier list for different types of players and developers know this so they make changes accordingly for different types of players. Changes can motivate even a low/average player to play a new character and overall make the game more fun for them through quality of life improvements. And this doesn't even cover the spectator side of things.
 

Compbros

Member
Id say if you play and interact with the community youre part of the FGC. If you're a stream monster then you're part of the FGC. Just because you dont play locals doesnt make you not apart of it.

I didn't say anything about locals, I agree stream monsters are a part because they're taking steps to be part of the community rather than just playing the game a lot. People can play every Pokemon game, collect every Pokemon, and battle online without being a part of their community. Posting on forums, watching streams of events, participating in tournaments , going to locals, etc. Any and every one of those makes you a part of the community. Basically going beyond just playing the game and interacting with others in whatever manner that isn't just battling them or what have you makes you a part of a community.
 
Actually surprised this. Have you gone through the tutorial/mission mode? There's a lot and not all of them are obvious general systems mechanics. I'll go more in-depth when I have some time.

I went through the tutorial completely, then I went through about 5 of the character missions (completely, toyed around with some others).

I've done similar things with BB and P4A.
 

Onemic

Member

Totally agree with this.

I didn't say anything about locals, I agree stream monsters are a part because they're taking steps to be part of the community rather than just playing the game a lot. People can play every Pokemon game, collect every Pokemon, and battle online without being a part of their community. Posting on forums, watching streams of events, participating in tournaments , going to locals, etc. Any and every one of those makes you a part of the community. Basically going beyond just playing the game and interacting with others in whatever manner that isn't just battling them or what have you makes you a part of a community.

I wasnt really arguing against you, just joining in on the convo lol. it was more directed to the poster that specifically attributed locals/travelin to events and making content to being part of the community
 

shaowebb

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";163126729]Hokuto no Ken is practically all overlap.

high/low airdash mixups -> four-minute combo that's literally pressing short over and over[/QUOTE]

That sounds rather overly rewarding and lacking in depth. That is a horrible thing to try and make a game be filled with unless you just want to play it in single player all day. In other words, neat for combo videos but absolutely unfair for anyone to try and sit through matches seriously.

Honestly it sounds like evil zone in a way...casual as shit and a guilty pleasure to talk about.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
god damn, these past few pages were like
8KFOvbv.png


I agree, more players playing the game is always good, but it's tough to keep them playing. I am not even sure an in-game incentive system would be successful.

Tutorials can only teach so much, the pressure of a real match multiplies difficulty, there's no way to duplicate this without practice unfortunately. The best tutorials would help players get over the first humps of execution and strategy.

An opposing character tutorial might be good, something that gives players an idea of how to play against other characters. Not matchup specific tutorials, but just an opposing character tutorial where you can play any character against them. For example, the tutorial goal might be to successfully defend against a bnb, and then react with an combo that does a certain % of damage, something that requires some experimentation on the part of the player.

Or, maybe even a practice mode tutorial which shows players how to recreate different scenarios to practice against.

Its complicated lol, can fg's please start copying other games that are going in the right direction with this lol. SFxT tried this, although it was kinda lame, it was a start. SC had a chat system, just like a few other fighters if I'm not mistaken. Ono don't fudge this up.

Fighting games in general don't have a golden carrot nor a freebie carrot at the end of the stick for non tournament play. You either play casually with friends or strangers and experiment, or you play to win and rub someone's face in the dirt.

Take games that are team based or where other people are playing towards a similar goal. In Call of Duty getting 55 kills and dying 4 times will be gratifying and satisfying, even though your team still ended up losing in a objective game type. In DOTA 2 there will be players that rake in a ton of kills but in the end their team loses. Even in defeat, you can feel some sense of accomplishment.

Which is why I love the ranking and XP system in VF5:FS and hate the point system in SF4. Even if you lose to somebody with a shit ton of experience and points in VF5, you gain some XP for your effort. Even if its a pittance, it doesn't feel like you're being penalized for being less experienced. Whereas every SF4 loss either feels like nothing happened or your experience was robbed.

An XP based system sounds a lot more rewarding than losing PP in SF. The salt is so real when you lose 100 PP...

I'd be ecstatic if it were a new Soulcalibur.

SC being irrelevant just feels so damned wrong.

Kimo, MAH BROTHA
eKgIXWI.png


Daigo owns Justin's soul. :p

Justin in Marvel 2, greatest player ever. Justin in SF? Free.

- Daigo Umehara

Let me try to fill in the holes:



Dark Souls 3?


New Pac-Man?



Tekken 7?
SoulCalibur?
Dragonball?
Naruto?

Clearly definitely not Pokken.


They already have Rise of Incarnates on there. Must be a new title or perhaps an update to ROI?

They just published Project Cars. I'm thinking a new Ridge Racer.


Ni No Kuni 2?
Tales of Zestiria?

Ace Combat?

What's Missing?

Summer Lesson.
Project Treasure.

Dude, you are a saint.

I've seen a lot of twitch streamers sub to each other's channels. While it's a nice gesture to support each other, the real winner is Twitch getting half of those sub fees. lol

In other news, Bum is streaming MKX. Overdrive UMVC3 tournament to follow. http://www.twitch.tv/bum1six3

I need some marvel but I'm falling asleep ;_;
 
That sounds rather overly rewarding and lacking in depth. That is a horrible thing to try and make a game be filled with unless you just want to play it in single player all day. In other words, neat for combo videos but absolutely unfair for anyone to try and sit through matches seriously.

Honestly it sounds like evil zone in a way...casual as shit and a guilty pleasure to talk about.

I played Evil Zone for three years.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
I do think in general Xrd is more specific (going by your definition) than KOF or many other games, but there is some rhyme and reason to how things work across characters. I do agree though- Arcsys design kind of forces you to spend hours in the lab with a character before can play them well enough to understand if you wanna actually play them.


Thanks for that link, I was frightened that I might have to a commit to a really long post.

I went through the tutorial completely, then I went through about 5 of the character missions (completely, toyed around with some others).

I've done similar things with BB and P4A.


Then how did you miss that there's way more systems mechanics than burst and RC? I highly recommend you look at the article Zissou posted. Not only was your original statement very wrong in regards to there being a lack of "norms" for combos and normals (forward Punch is general the universal Anti Air with Upper Body invincibility, Crouching Dust is generally a sweep that can be chained into and start oki, far Slash helps control space in the neutral and start offense), - but there's obviously way more universal systems mechanics than just RC and Burst, and these systems offer the transitiveness you claim to value. If a safe string can be punished by Just Defend with one character - most others likely can too. Too blunt an offense gets blown up by Blitz Shield via everyone in the cast. Air Dashing carries the same risk/reward baggage as jumping SF or KOF. Faultless Defense can make offensive pressure a bit more bearable.

etc. etc.

Yeah, it's a lot to take in, but GG is actually valued for it's diversity in character appearance at high-levels largely due to these myriad universal systems - and each character still manages to feel and play very differently from the nest.

I wouldn't take issue with the notion that the game is more specific than you'd like (to which I'm obliged to agree), but "too" specific, I can't let abide. That's implying the game offers a debilitating level of obtuseness that I can't agree with.
 

MormaPope

Banned
I disagree, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. How can someone be a part of the community simply by dedicating a large some of time to it? I've put dozens, if not hundreds of hours into The Last of Us Multiplayer but I wouldn't say I'm part of TLoU community. I've put dozens of hours into CoD: AW but I couldn't name you a single "pro" player and I don't interact with members of the community more than just joining a game and playing so, again, I don't believe I'm part of that community.

It comes down to passion and what you do outside of the game. I should've been more specific. Any meta activity outside sitting in front of a game and playing it means you're investing into something bigger, a community.
 

shaowebb

Member
On the topic of keeping people playing I am a big believer in single player mode unlocks like NRS does but it can be retooled for a different idea.

I really thought Heroes and Heralds mode was an incredible idea executed poorly. Its a bullshit mode thats better than the whole Test Your Luck thing NRS does for casual players to have fun with no matter what and for others to just experiment. I think you should be able to unlock modifier stuff like the card system in HH via spending points, random drops and other stuff. One nifty one would simply be to gain a character thats not on your team's assist by drawing enough tokens for that character's assists to unlock as options for you to use (I guess like biometrics in Marvel Future Fight).

Honestly card modifiers and minigame modifiers are the real way to keep things going IMO. Casuals will keep playing casually and serious folks will keep playing seriously. HH was an outlet to allow both casuals and pros to customize their experience in a fun Koryu edition style mode and I think that speaks well to folks...the customization aspect. So long as it doesn't impact normal play I think customization is needed for longevity and should be included more as a side mode to keep folks playing. I'd even go so far as to setup trophy rooms you can customize with things you buy with points like a wall to hang a title belt or something with the amount of online tournies won or something like that. Hell I'd even throw in a bejeweled knock off and other minigames like the trophy shooter in smash bros or something. Rhythm of fighters stuff is pretty good to use if possible. I just generally think you need the core game to unlock new options and fun stuff to use in other ways in other modes. Custom stuff is fun and lets you keep playing around with the game anew so unlocking stuff that changes player options and abilities in side modes or minigames is the way I see fighters having higher lasting life in someone's routine.

In other words...fighting alone won't hold folks long. It has to have a long term purpose and for this you need to set up collectibles and multiple possible long term goal outlets for folks to expend their energy towards. As is, most fighters only have beating your personal best and improving in skill as a longterm goal.
 
I don't disagree with what you said but I'd like to clarify something.

In KOF, close C or D being fast is not a universal mechanic, nor is the combo structure.

I was specifically talking about things that carry over from character to character -that are not universal mechanics-.

So, things like forward Punch or crouching Dust.
 

shaowebb

Member
I don't disagree with what you said but I'd like to clarify something.

In KOF, close C or D being fast is not a universal mechanic, nor is the combo structure.

I was specifically talking about things that carry over from character to character -that are not universal mechanics-.

So, things like forward Punch or crouching Dust.

Would you say some basic utlities carrying over is ideal in fighting game design? For example the whole Down 2 thing in Netherealm titles being some kind of uppercut to give everyone and AA across every moveset in the game. Do you think having one AA, one low, and maybe one or two inputs being general fast poke tools or something is a good foundation to design from?
 

Kimosabae

Banned
I don't disagree with what you said but I'd like to clarify something.

In KOF, close C or D being fast is not a universal mechanic, nor is the combo structure.

I was specifically talking about things that carry over from character to character -that are not universal mechanics-.

So, things like forward Punch or crouching Dust.

Are you sure you read my post?

Thanks for that link, Zissou, I was frightened that I might have to a commit to a really long post.

I highly recommend you look at the article Zissou posted. Not only was your original statement very wrong in regards to there being a lack of "norms" for combos and normals (forward Punch is general the universal Anti Air with Upper Body invincibility, Crouching Dust is generally a sweep that can be chained into and start oki, far Slash helps control space in the neutral and start offense),
 
Would you say some basic utlities carrying over is ideal in fighting game design? For example the whole Down 2 thing in Netherealm titles being some kind of uppercut to give everyone and AA. Do you think having one AA, one low, and maybe one or two inputs being general fast poke tools or something is a good foundation to design from?

It's not necessary, but it's something I do enjoy and prefer. It offers a way to compare characters without necessarily descending all the way into the rabbit hole, AND it can provide the basic way to differentiate characters (X has a bad sweep, Y has a great jumping kick, Z has good jabs, etc).
 

Csr

Member
There's nothing "wrong" with it, but forgive me for seeing it as superficial. If it's not your "main" game or you're not serious about being good at the game, the strength of the character should matter even less.

Imo it is not black and white. People play fg's both for fun and for the competition, even the top players mostly choose games and characters that they have fun with. Sometimes a specific weakness of a character might make you too furstrated to have fun or might force you to play in a way you don't enjoy or the only character you like is too weak and you might not like the game that much to put in the work to overcome that weakness or...
Why does it have to not be superficial, it is not serious business anyway.
 
So I'm at this place called the arena in west Babylon on Long Island Where people are currently playing USF4, 3rd Strike and MKX and the only girl here is one who works here. It's like a 1:22 girl to guy ratio. Geez girl gamers where you be at??!?!
 

Onemic

Member
So I'm at this place called the arena in west Babylon on Long Island Where people are currently playing USF4, 3rd Strike and MKX and the only girl here is one who works here. It's like a 1:22 girl to guy ratio. Geez girl gamers where you be at??!?!

Have you looked at stream chats? That should give you a good idea why.
 

shaowebb

Member
It's not necessary, but it's something I do enjoy and prefer. It offers a way to compare characters without necessarily descending all the way into the rabbit hole, AND it can provide the basic way to differentiate characters (X has a bad sweep, Y has a great jumping kick, Z has good jabs, etc).

Fair enough. I'll keep this in mind and table it as an idea to center cast on in the future.
 

Onemic

Member
What do you mean by that? I'm always in stream chats especially for big events seems pretty normal for me. I could see a girl enjoying it too.

Girl comes on stream. Chat goes absolutely insane like someone sprinkled cat nip all over them. If chat doesnt think theyre hot, chat shits on them.
 

Dahbomb

Member
So I'm at this place called the arena in west Babylon on Long Island Where people are currently playing USF4, 3rd Strike and MKX and the only girl here is one who works here. It's like a 1:22 girl to guy ratio. Geez girl gamers where you be at??!?!
Playing LoL/Hearthstone where the real money and CPM is at.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
I, personally, don't care about being part of the "fgc" club. Especially since my interest in this predates when the term FGC was popularized. When it comes to the topic of Max's legitimacy, I find that is brought up more by his fans than anyone else. Imagine a guy nudging you with his shoulder, whispering, "Max is one of us, he plays fighting games like you and me!" Which leads to associations like, throwing a grand at him to play an RPG... as a resolution to tournaments not having good payout. It's quite a jump.

If I made it sound like donating 1k to play Secret of Mana on stream is directly helping the FGC; then my bad. But - I don't think anyone would argue that Max is a big fan and proponent of fighting games. Hell, I think he's commentated at multiple majors for KI (maybe even Evo?). Let's switch this up though. Let's use Justin for instance. He takes donations. He plays fighting games. The money he gets from donations will help him play more fighting games. If someone donated 1k to Justin Wong to play Secret of Mana on stream - most of that money will end up being used either directly in a tournament or maybe for him to make tutorial videos, etc.

That same 1k that goes to Max, is all of it going to end up directly helping a tournament? Probably not. But if he uses some of that money to fly to a major tournament and commentate KI Top 8, and maybe someone watching that Top 8 gets inspired to pick up and start playing, and starts entering tournaments? Then it did, indirectly, help things grow. If your entire "community" consists only of hardcore competitive players and commentators (which, mind you, would put Max in, seeing as he was one of the commentators for Top 8 KI this year at EVO); that's leaving a lot of people out that help the community grow. Would I get more bang for the buck if I ended up giving the money to Justin instead of Max when it came to direct investment in trying to grow the competitive fighting game scene? Absolutely. Hell, I'd get the most bang for the buck by just putting that 1k into a pot bonus at a major probably. But I don't think Max is just trying to be "part of the FGC" to solicit donations. Hell, we're the last freaking group to ask for money from. :p

Your words:
"For me it's also a matter of FGC growth. I don't think Max was nearly as big at the time when this happened; and while its awesome that these people do the streams and play games for the love of the game - it isn't sustainable when there is not some money coming in somehow. It's the most depressing part of the FGC - you see the hunger and the skill and the tenacity and the hard work, but everyone sort of expects them to do it for free, and then we wonder why the scene doesn't grow. We keep wanting OTHER people to put that money in."

Like you use the word scene here. What scene are you talking about? Max's stream chat? The youtube celeberty scene? twitchcon?

Why not all of them as well as people who stream and promote and play fighting games? Why can't someone be part of multiple scenes?

I personally take a very basic and inclusive approach to the term. There's a player base of Fighting Games. Some proportion of them talk to each other outside of just playing the game. A community, as it were, of people talking about these games. Because these games have tournaments and are a spectator sport (or trying to become one), both fans and support staff also can talk about these games. I'd consider folks in that group the "FGC". But I'm an inclusive person by nature. Hell, I haven't played a fighting game for more than an hour since 2004. But I've spent probably 100+ hours of my time and hundreds of dollars helping run Northwest Majors for the last three years. Do I not count as part of the FGC?
 

kitzkozan

Member
Girl comes on stream. Chat goes absolutely insane like someone sprinkled cat nip all over them. If chat doesnt think theyre hot, chat shits on them.

There's one girl currently streaming MK X, but I won't even dare to stare at the chat to preserve my sanity. XD Stream monsters at their absolute worst which is beyond my limits lol(no wonder the FGC barely has women as active competitors).
 

fader

Member
competitive gaming in general barely has female competitors, it's not just the FGC. and it stems from MUCH more than a vile chat-room.
 

Csr

Member
competitive gaming in general barely has female competitors, it's not just the FGC. and it stems from MUCH more than a vile chat-room.

People mentioned the stream chat rooms as an example for how females are treated in the fgc, i don't think that anyone was saying that the chat itself is the problem. But yeah that attitude probably is not the only reason.
 

gutabo

Member
If you're going to EVO and are looking for some room sharing to keep your costs down there are two peruvians here that are looking for the same! Let me know, send me a PM, whatever.
 
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