Fighting Games Weekly | Nov 4-10 | I-No what that finger smells like [18+]

Huw_Dawson said:
You'd need a league to have a viable ranking structure, as you need long-term statistics.

If SF4 or Marvel's online play was GGPO-quality, you could probably run a league in the US. But if we're going on tournament results, there are way too many variables.
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What are the variables that need to be accounted for? Note, most ranking systems long-term performance into account to get current ranking, your performance degrades if you lose consistently don't compete regardless of venue.

Winning Evo, for example, would give you a big boost because you'd have to win something like 19-20 matches to win it, and the people that you face as you win have a pretty high performance rating; this would give you a boost that would let you sit on your laurels for a little, but not forever.
 
Dahbomb said:
I thought we were discussing just in UMVC3 not overall best fighting game player.

Overall best fighting game player is Tokido. After that would be players like Kindevu, Justin Wong, Ryan Hart.

ChrisG is on his way though, he just needs EVO wins to cement his status among the best. Xian is almost there too, he's very good at Marvel, good at KOFXIII and won EVO in AE.
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I agree. I think Xian will get there first because he does not have the silly issues Chris has. But they day he gets over them it will be very interesting. I think we are in a new fgc golden age with the players we have and the turn around on tech. Only thing holding fighting games back is they just need more raw numbers competing in the macro scene for it to really blossom. But teaching of the games needs to improve and we need more affable top players.
 
I think making a best fighting game player list of all time shouldn't be that hard if we are looking at just EVO top 8 stats. If the criteria is who has won the most games at EVO and not just who has won the most EVO period.

Best Fighting Game players of all time based on EVO statistics:

#1 Tokido

CVS2: 1st 2002, 5th 2007, 5th 2008
GGXX: 7th 2005
SSF2T: 3rd 2005, 1st 2007, 4th 2008
Hyper Street Fighter 2: 3rd 2006
SSF2T HD Remix: 5th 2010
SF3 3rd Strike : 5th 2006, 2nd 2007, 4th 2008
VF5: 5th 2007
Tekken 6: 5th 2010, 7th 2011
SSF4: 5th 2011, 2nd 2013
BlazBlue: 3rd 2011
KOFXIII: 4th 2013


#2 Justin Wong

MVC2: 1st 2002, 1st 2003, 1st 2004, 4th 2005, 1st 2006, 2nd 2007, 1st 2008, 2nd 2009, 1st 2010
CVS2: 5th 2003, 5th 2004, 5th 2005, 5th 2006, 3rd 2007, 4th 2008
SF3 3rd Strike: 3rd 2004, 2nd 2005, 2nd 2008, 1st 2009 (teams)
SSF2T: 4th 2004, 7th 2008
Tekken 5: 4th 2006
SSF4: 2nd 2009,
TVC: 3rd 2010
MVC3: 3rd 2011, 7th, 2012, 2nd 2013
SFxT: 2nd 2013


#3 Daigo

SF3 3rd Strike: 2nd 2003, 2nd 2004
SSF2T: 1st 2003, 1st 2004
Hyper SF2: 5th 2006
SSF2T HD: 4th 2010
CVS2: 2nd 2003, 5th 2006
GGXX: 1st 2003, 1st 2004
SSF4: 1st 2009, 1st 2010, 4th 2011, 5th 2012, 7th 2013


#4 Ryan Hart

TTT: 2nd 2003, 1st 2004, 2nd 2005
SF3: 3rd Strike: 7th 2008
VF4: 3rd 2003, 4th 2004
Tekken 4: 4th 2004
Tekken 5: 1st 2008
Tekken 6: 7th 2011


#5 Ricky Ortiz (da king of 2nd place)

CVS2: 2nd 2004, 2nd 2006, 2nd 2007, 3rd 2008
MVC2: 5th 2005
SF3 3rd Strike: 5th 2005, 7th 2007
SSF4: 7th 2009, 2nd 2010
SFx2: 2nd 2012


#6 John Choi

SSF2T: 3rd 2003, 2nd 2004, 2nd 2007, 1st 2008
Hyper SF2: 7th 2006
CVS2: 3rd 2004, 7th 2007, 1st 2008
SSF2T HD: 2nd 2009


#7 Kindevu

CVS2: 1st 2004, 3rd 2005, 1st 2006, 4th 2007
GGXX: 2nd 2004, 2nd 2005
SSF4: 5th 2011


#8 Alex Valle

CVS2: 7th 2002
SSF2T: 5th 2004, 7th 2007, 3rd 2008
Hyper SF2: 4th 2006
SF3 3rd Strike: 7th 2006, 3rd 2007
SSF2T HD: 7th 2009, 7th 2010
SFxT: 4th 2013


#9 Tetsuya Inoue (Ino)

CVS2: 4th 2002, 1st 2003
SF3 3rd Strike: 4th 2003
VF5: 5th 2007


#10 Perfect Legend

DOA4: 1st 2006
MK9: 1st 2011, 1st 2012, 5th 2013



Ricky Ortiz and Alex Valle are the best fighting game players who have never won an EVO title.

Perfect Legend has 3 EVO titles for only 2 games.

Justin Wong has the most EVO wins for one game by a mile but individually he has only won a title in one game. He still has the most top 8 EVO finishes out of any other player. Daigo has placed 1st place in 3 different games. Tokido has the most overall games with top 8 finishes while also having 2 EVO wins.
 
Dahbomb said:
I thought we were discussing just in UMVC3 not overall best fighting game player.

Overall best fighting game player is Tokido. After that would be players like Kindevu, Justin Wong, Ryan Hart.

ChrisG is on his way though, he just needs EVO wins to cement his status among the best. Xian is almost there too, he's very good at Marvel, good at KOFXIII and won EVO in AE.
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I would give more credit to Xian than Chris. Chris gets practice every week in the most active competitive scene in the US. Xian is playing games that have absolutely no scene in Singapore.
 
Dahbomb said:
I think making a best fighting game player list of all time shouldn't be that hard if we are looking at just EVO top 8 stats. If the criteria is who has won the most games at EVO and not just who has won the most EVO period.

Best Fighting Game players of all time based on EVO statistics:
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Nice work Dahbomb.

I wonder though if you could weigh those results by the number of entrants? For example I consider Daigo's win in SF4 a lot higher than Justin winning MvC2.
 
That's too much work though and it would really skewer the scores towards newer games. Like a win in MVC3 would rank much higher than any of the old games, higher than both SF3 and CVS2.

Even if you don't count Justin's MVC2 wins he still has a shit ton of top 8 finishes at EVO in various games. He is definitely top 3 best player of all time status no matter how you want to dice it.

Daigo's record is much more impressive than I first thought. I mean I knew he was godly at 2D games but in 3 games he has back to back 2 EVO wins for a total of 6 wins (ST, GG and SF4). You could almost make the argument that he is #1 due to winning most EVO titles in different games (even Tokido only has 2 1st place finishes).
 
Dahbomb said:
That's too much work though and it would really skewer the scores towards newer games.
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I appreciate the too much work, but skewing it towards newer games is kind of the point. Winning UMVC3 for instance is to me a lot more impressive than 2. Justin might have been the best in his game, but he only had to beat the people playing at the time.
 
Prior to 2011, Evo results weren't really the best indicator though due to the lack of international competition.
I mean guys like Justin and Ricky were unstoppable in the US in 3rd Strike, but they'd be like mid tier in Japan.
The top Guilty Gear players in the US would probably be low tier in Japan.

I mean before, some of the top players came, and of course they did well, but a lot of US players get heavy bias since it is a US tournament.
 
toddhunter said:
I appreciate the too much work, but skewing it towards newer games is kind of the point. Winning UMVC3 for instance is to me a lot more impressive than 2. Justin might have been the best in his game, but he only had to beat the people playing at the time.
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A few years ago Evo wasn't even really considered the world final or whatever (except for MvC2), I think before SBO went downhill that was far and away the tournament to win. But then there was always so much drama about exactly how to qualify for SBO, and all the shadiness about which arcades / cities would have qualifiers, and how the money was spent and whether or not the best players actually ended up going. It does seem a bit more fair now that people are traveling more and there's sponsorship.

But another angle on it, SBO had massive qualifying tournaments. To get into SBO for say, CvS2 or 3S, then to have a proven SBO track record, then to put those players against the best in the USA at Evo, it kinda doesn't matter how many people were at EVO for those games because it wouldn't affect the skill level at the top end.
 
I wonder if Ricky or Alex Valle will ever win an EVO title. They better start getting in that Killer Instinct to stand a chance. Although knowing ChrisG he will probably win at that shit too.
 
CPS2 said:
But another angle on it, SBO had massive qualifying tournaments. To get into SBO for say, CvS2 or 3S, then to have a proven SBO track record, then to put those players against the best in the USA at Evo, it kinda doesn't matter how many people were at EVO for those games because it wouldn't affect the skill level at the top end.
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That is true, but as Dahbomb did you have to base it on something, even if it is flawed. The number of entrants is simply an indicator of the relative number of people playing a game at a particular point. Whilst it isn't perfect to say that 1000 players means higher level competition than a tournament with 100, you could expect that higher representation means more tech being explored in the wider community, more character diversity and knowledge of matchups etc.

Which raises another point. I believe that with the amount of information shared these days via youtube/forums etc it will be much more difficult to fraud your way through a tourney based on new tech or a matchup that nobody has bothered to learn. The fact that Xian could still pull it off speaks a lot for his skill.

Dahbomb said:
I wonder if Ricky or Alex Valle will ever win an EVO title. They better start getting in that Killer Instinct to stand a chance. Although knowing ChrisG he will probably win at that shit too.
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Noticed today that Orchid has an air-throw. Time to pack it up for other US players.
 
If MVC3 was released back in 2001... Justin would've still be beating people with Wolverine/Storm/Akuma and the TAC infinites wouldn't have been discovered until almost 2006-ish. All the people that Justin loses to nowadays are people who started their fighting game career late (FChamp, ChrisG, PRRog, Flocker).

Think about that for a second and realize how true that is. The only reason why the TAC infinites were discovered was because a Mexican player randomly posted a cool Trish TAC combo video that people realized was a true infinite. If that video was never posted we would've gone at least another year without infinites.
 
Dahbomb said:
If MVC3 was released back in 2002... Justin would've still be beating people with Wolverine/Storm/Akuma and the TAC infinites wouldn't have been discovered until almost 2006-ish. All the people that Justin loses to nowadays are people who started their fighting game career late (FChamp, ChrisG, PRRog, Flocker).

Think about that for a second and realize how true that is. The only reason why the TAC infinites were discovered was because a Mexican player randomly posted a cool Trish TAC combo video that people realized was a true infinite. If that video was never posted we would've gone at least another year without infinites.
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Very true. Heck if Chris G hadn't started spamming fireballs for a bit of fun, things might still be very different.
 
I'm still mad I didn't go to EVO last year. I woulda gotten 2nd in P4A :-(

LordKnight giving Mitsuru a bad name.

But then again, the nerfs would have been even worse. And there's nothing I hate more than thinking!
 
Nah, I woulda lost to Yume. But LordKnight embarrassed himself in that grand finals.

BanannaKen was probably the best shot to beat Yume, but if I replaced LordKnight in the bracket I woulda beaten BK too. Too much Qistoptier exp.
 
Any best player list that is just based on EVO results is not really accurate. Maybe for MVC2 and 3. Just call it best EVO performers ever or USA scene based.
 
ThatCrazyGuy said:
Any best player list that is just based on EVO results is not really accurate. Maybe for MVC2 and 3. Just call it best EVO performers ever or USA scene based.
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I know that which is why I said "best player list based on EVO results only". It was really just a counter to what Triforce was bull shitting about Daigo yesterday.

Realistically speaking you would have to account for win/loss ratios, all tournament performances (regionals and majors), the level of competition in each tournament and other factors to come up with a realistic list. And even then the list would be in contention.

Like how the hell do you rank Justin Wong's win in UMVC3 at SBO. He wasn't playing against many top American players and the format was very different from most Marvel tournaments (it was 2/3 single elimination). Is that comparable to a US regional win? A major tournament win? The number of entrants might not be a lot but all of them were high level players at least in Japan.

And then how do you rank particular players if they are better at more games? Do you go by number of entrants or how many "high level" players there are at a given tournament? Like is it "harder" to win in SF3 as compared to Tekken 5? Is it better to place top 8 in many games versus winning EVO in just one game to be considered among the best fighting game players?

Do you take into consideration the degree by which a player won matches (like Justin winning a MVC2 tournament without dropping a single game)? Is Infiltration's EVO win at SF4 more impressive than Daigo's win against Justin because he dropped less games?

A lot of factors to consider when ranking players. Like how people brought up that winning something in 2002 is a lot different than winning something in 2013.
 
Dahbomb said:
And then how do you rank particular players if they are better at more games? Do you go by number of entrants or how many "high level" players there are at a given tournament? Like is it "harder" to win in SF3 as compared to Tekken 5? Is it better to place top 8 in many games versus winning EVO in just one game to be considered among the best fighting game players?
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Then you think about pot splitting and collusion and call it a day.
 
You guys are heavily underestimating the growth speed of MVC2. By 2003-2004 it was modern MVC2 and the game was completely figured out. It's pretty much identical to the speed at which people have learned MVC3. You guys should listen to Viscant's 5 hour long retelling of the MVC2 history, although not the entire history, and severely biased and full of some miss information. It gives you a fantastic idea of the actual progression of the game.
 
Deckard Cain said:
You guys are heavily underestimating the growth speed of MVC2. By 2003-2004 it was modern MVC2 and the game was completely figured out. It's pretty much identical to the speed at which people have learned MVC3. You guys should listen to Viscant's 5 hour long retelling of the MVC2 history, although not the entire history, and severely biased and full of some miss information. It gives you a fantastic idea of the actual progression of the game.
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you mean this?
http://www.alphaism.com/?p=220

Or something else.
 
Deckard Cain said:
You guys are heavily underestimating the growth speed of MVC2. By 2003-2004 it was modern MVC2 and the game was completely figured out. It's pretty much identical to the speed at which people have learned MVC3. You guys should listen to Viscant's 5 hour long retelling of the MVC2 history, although not the entire history, and severely biased and full of some miss information. It gives you a fantastic idea of the actual progression of the game.
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Not necessarily true.

Game was released in 2001 and until 2004 people didn't really know about Spiral/Sentinel or at least didn't know how to deal with it. That's why Duc Do won in 2005 with Spiral. It took an additional year for people figure out how to beat it.

People definitely knew that Storm/Cable were top tier and that Sentinel was up there. It took a while for people to figure out refly/unfly potential of Sentinel. Strider/Doom wasn't discovered/mastered years later. Magneto took like a year to figure out. Starting out Blackheart was considered really good but then he was figured out and he dropped out.

It also took people a long time to 3 for 1 a team with Iron Man. If that was figured out sooner or people would've mastered it earlier things would've been different. People were also slow to learn about the potential of the Cyclops assist and it wasn't until 2006 when that assist became prevalent (one year prior to that people were spamming MSP, I think there were like 5-6 MSP teams in top 8 for EVO in one year).

It also took a while before Cable was considered the weakest of the god. It wasn't until the last 3 years of MVC2 that Cable started to phase out from the top 8 of EVO with only Sanford Kelly holding it down with the character.

I guess you could say that master theory fighters like Viscant had "figured" out the game in the first 2 years but this wasn't really evident in the results until years later.
 
Deckard Cain said:
You guys are heavily underestimating the growth speed of MVC2. By 2003-2004 it was modern MVC2 and the game was completely figured out. It's pretty much identical to the speed at which people have learned MVC3. You guys should listen to Viscant's 5 hour long retelling of the MVC2 history, although not the entire history, and severely biased and full of some miss information. It gives you a fantastic idea of the actual progression of the game.
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Holy shit, I know what I'm listening to at work tomorrow.

MiniBossBattle said:
I keep hitting the next gen threads in hope that Capcom snuck in a port of UMvC3 for the PS4/XB1 like what Injustice is doing.
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This would be enough for me to get a next gen console.
 
Dahbomb said:
Not necessarily true.

Game was released in 2001 and until 2004 people didn't really know about Spiral/Sentinel or at least didn't know how to deal with it. That's why Duc Do won in 2005 with Spiral. It took an additional year for people figure out how to beat it.

People definitely knew that Storm/Cable were top tier and that Sentinel was up there. It took a while for people to figure out refly/unfly potential of Sentinel. Strider/Doom wasn't discovered/mastered years later. Magneto took like a year to figure out. Starting out Blackheart was considered really good but then he was figured out and he dropped out.

It also took people a long time to 3 for 1 a team with Iron Man. If that was figured out sooner or people would've mastered it earlier things would've been different. People were also slow to learn about the potential of the Cyclops assist and it wasn't until 2006 when that assist became prevalent (one year prior to that people were spamming MSP, I think there were like 5-6 MSP teams in top 8 for EVO in one year).

It also took a while before Cable was considered the weakest of the god. It wasn't until the last 3 years of MVC2 that Cable started to phase out from the top 8 of EVO with only Sanford Kelly holding it down with the character.

I guess you could say that master theory fighters like Viscant had "figured" out the game in the first 2 years but this wasn't really evident in the results until years later.
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No. That's not true, listen to the podcast. In 2005 Duc won because Yipes who was a new to the scene player at the time "Started in 2004" didn't know how to fight Duc's style which was already really old by 2005. Yipes grew up in the modern era of Marvel there were no Spiral/BlackHeart/StriderDoom so he didn't know how to deal.

Spiral was figured out in 2001 before B5. I'm telling you by 2003 it was modern Marvel.
 
Deckard Cain said:
No. That's not true, listen to the podcast. In 2005 Duc won because Yipes who was a new to the scene player at the time "Started in 2004" didn't know how to fight Duc's style which was already really old by 2005. Yipes grew up in the modern era of Marvel there were no Spiral/BlackHeart/StriderDoom so he didn't know how to deal.
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This sounds more correct. I remember it being something like this, I think Justin even mentions it during clock vs neo mvc2 mm
 
toddhunter said:
Nice work Dahbomb.

I wonder though if you could weigh those results by the number of entrants? For example I consider Daigo's win in SF4 a lot higher than Justin winning MvC2.
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By that logic, Xian winning 2012 is a lot more impressive than Daigo winning vanilla.

It's grown a lot, even in the last four years.
 
Deckard Cain said:
No. That's not true, listen to the podcast. In 2005 Duc won because Yipes who was a new to the scene player at the time "Started in 2004" didn't know how to fight Duc's style which was already really old by 2005. Yipes grew up in the modern era of Marvel there were no Spiral/BlackHeart/StriderDoom so he didn't know how to deal.

Spiral was figured out in 2001 before B5. I'm telling you by 2003 it was modern Marvel.
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I actually made a long post in reply to this but GAF went down and I lost the post.

Basically what I was saying is that the "modern" era of MVC2 really started with 2005. You can check out that video linked where Viscant and Skisonic recap the history of MVC2 at 40 minutes where even Viscant refers to 2005 as the modern era for the game or where the flip happened. By flip they mean that new players starting coming and more importantly the game started focusing on a more offensive oriented game play. Yes people knew about Magneto's potential but they hadn't reached that level yet, he was still losing to Sentinels. This is the point where MSPs started becoming really prevalent and rushdown style started taking over.

2003 was an awful year for MVC2 as was 2004. 2003 was when Ricky Ortiz and Justin Wong had that infamous grand finals at EVO. Ricky Ortiz didn't even take the game seriously, even he admitted it and so did Viscant so for him to reach grand final against Justin showed the level of play of the game at that time. 2004 was the same deal and the game was getting stale but in 2005 where the modern era or "hype" MVC2 started off.

Now of course you can counter this by saying "well MVC2 was figured out in the first year and people knew about MSP back then too". I was mostly referring to what was shown in results and what type of teams/characters were winning at that time. If you want to talk about a game being figured out... Viscant "figured" out MVC3 vanilla in like 2 months and UMVC3 was figured out within a few months right before its first EVO. You could also make the claim that MVC3 hasn't entered its "modern" era yet either but with all the claims about the game getting "stale" I am pretty sure most people would agree that the game is entering its refinement state now. Either way MVC3 developed way faster than MVC2. MVC2 started as a defensive/zoning dominant game and then shifted to a more rushdown type game... MVC3 was the opposite, it started out as a heavy rushdown game featuring Phoenix and invincible assists but then shifted to a more space control type game which is what the current game is. I guess you can also say that there was an expansion in between but even UMVC3 started as a heavy rushdown game until Morrigan/Zero/Missiles were refined.
 
Sheroking said:
By that logic, Xian winning 2012 is a lot more impressive than Daigo winning vanilla.

It's grown a lot, even in the last four years.
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Some thread on SRK says EVO 09 had 1,700 entrants. EVO 12 had 1,520, EVO 13 had 1,601. Not sure about 2010 and 2011 but 2010 probably had the most entrants then it dipped down in 2011.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";88791530]Nah, I woulda lost to Yume. But LordKnight embarrassed himself in that grand finals.

BanannaKen was probably the best shot to beat Yume, but if I replaced LordKnight in the bracket I woulda beaten BK too. Too much Qistoptier exp.[/QUOTE]

thumbs-up-computer-kid-gif.gif
 
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