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[ShinMaruku]

I think if the game can broaden enough that most people can get an enjoyable match and the skill set of the scenes get larger I think it's worth losing a bit of the niche. People who want to old way should not complain because they have the least to lose if their scene stays solid.

 

[Dahbomb]

Fighting games have had betas for ages in japan, what do you think loketest are?

I am talking about online betas not loketests.

 

[Ragingnight]

And they would fail just like DMC did. It rarely works.
And I am super defensive and nothing I said has anything to do with DOA or Tekken scene's dying but they sure aren't dying cause they are "Too complex" Tekken is dying because it's scene is lazy. I dunno why you would single out DOA and Tekken, all anime games and 3D fighters exist in that boat despite how complex or easy they are. Again proving MY point that your point about complexity being a factor in their popularity is just rubbish. Sou Calibur super simplified itself and it was the worst selling game in the series, died immediately competitively and is total crap, so please PLEASE don't give me this. I never even got to go to a tournament for it.

And no one plays Persona and it's super easy.

Edit:
Also Tekken 5 is considered pretty much by everyone to be the most complicated Tekken and yet it was super popular back in the day and sold like gangbusters. Again it has nothing to do with depth and complexity. Stop pinning it on that.

I'm not singling out DOA and Tekken. Another poster asked about DOA, Tekken and other 3d games. Why would I bring up blazblue, persona 4 arena and kof?

SC5 wasn't the worst selling SC because it was simplified. It was the lack of single player, the total revamp of characters that nobody gave two shits about and the fact that it was known that the game was rushed that fucked SC5.

I would be foolish to claim that being complex is the sole reason why a game isn't being played. There are other factors but I would say it plays a role. For fighting games there is the over saturation of fighting games, and brand fatigue that all play a role as well. There are other factors as well but those are unique issues that those games have.

Persona big issue is 1) the game is based off a successful rpg. People who like RPG doesn't equal people that would like a fighting game. 2) the game is super shallow at high level play. Chie, Yu, Mitsuru, Aigis tactics have remain largely the same for almost a year. Their gameplan is super derpy and nobody wants to play against that. I mean when a majority of the cast have no answer to chie's sweep into 5D safe oki setup then you're going to get really basic gameplay.

Each game have their reasons for not succeeding, but its not far-fetch to think a game being complex can be a deterrent to people playing the game. I mean even on gaf you have casuals saying fighting games have "obtuse" controls and random ass shit.

Also didn't tekken 5 release during the "dark age" of fighting games? I mean you didn't have much options back then for new fighting games. Nowadays there are plenty of competent fighters in the market.

 

[Dahbomb]

Tekken 5 isn't the most complicated, TTT2 is the most complicated by a mile. The roster was no where that big back then. It also didn't have superfluous shit like Bound combos and Rage.

I wouldn't say complicated or even difficult to describe the game... just bloated. They need to cut the fat for sure, not dumb it down.

Also people need to stop calling other members of the community "lazy". I have seen that word thrown around here a lot lately.

The basic design philosphy of a good game is "easy to learn hard to master". If a game is hard to even learn then that is a failure on the devs part. The game would be competitive but not a lot of people would play it and it would die out soon. The problem with Tekken is that with each new mechanic or character they add its becoming harder and harder to learn it from scratch.

The difference between it and lets say SF3/SF4 is that SF4 replaced old mechanics with new ones so it was just as easy to get into. The character roster also started out small and then became big.

 

[CPS2]

Also people need to stop calling other members of the community "lazy". I have seen that word thrown around here a lot lately.

Ironically most people would assume if you put more time into videogames then you're being lazy.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I think the calling people lazy is with the people who can go to their locals but never go, or when they go they only play their friends and nobody new. I'd cal those people lazy.

Those who have other reasons why they can't make it out probably would not be counted against.

 

[MarkMan]

Tekken 5 considered the most complicated Tekken?

Yo I want whatever NeoGAF smokes.

Send me some asap.

 

[Lambda Pie]

i'd argue Tekken 5 is even simpler than 4. and you didn't exactly need a notepad with notes to play 4 (just Jin).

 

[alstein]

I'm not singling out DOA and Tekken. Another poster asked about DOA, Tekken and other 3d games. Why would I bring up blazblue, persona 4 arena and kof?


Persona big issue is 1) the game is based off a successful rpg. People who like RPG doesn't equal people that would like a fighting game. 2) the game is super shallow at high level play. Chie, Yu, Mitsuru, Aigis tactics have remain largely the same for almost a year. Their gameplan is super derpy and nobody wants to play against that. I mean when a majority of the cast have no answer to chie's sweep into 5D safe oki setup then you're going to get really basic gameplay.

I don't think the second thing you suggest is as big a problem as you think. You just described Super Turbo in a nutshell, and that game lasted for years.

Also Tekken 5 is considered pretty much by everyone to be the most complicated Tekken and yet it was super popular back in the day and sold like gangbusters. Again it has nothing to do with depth and complexity. Stop pinning it on that.

Perception of difficulty is more important than actual difficulty. People think VF5 is super-hard when it's not that hard. People thought Sf4 was easy execution ally when in fact some pros have custom select buttons just to make the execution easier. (one change I'd make in USF4 is auto-select in plink situations so it's not just an advantage for those with custom select buttons)

 

[Ragingnight]

I don't think the second thing you suggest is as big a problem as you think. You just described Super Turbo in a nutshell, and that game lasted for years.

Super Turbo had a lot of things going for it though. Its history, its popularity of being the biggest fighting game, and all that. Now there are options to other games. Why does anybody have to deal with 8-2 matchups anymore. Back then you had no choice. What were your options around ST time? MK?

Persona had other issues as well. A niche market (niche anime rpg, small roster, and characters that people that didn't play the RPG couldn't connect with. Mike Ross, Champ, and many others have said the same thing. I have personally heard it at locals. First thing they do is go through character select. If they don't like any of the characters visually, then there is even less incentive to play.

 

[AAK]

Just personally speaking.... Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 are SIGNIFICANTLY easier to learn compared to Tekken 5.

The systems like bound and such add so much structure and organization to the combo's that it was so much easier to deal with. The game system was slowed down as well and the leniency for breaking things like throws/counters/stuns.

You all talk about the generation of having instant gratification and such... Tekken Tag 2 did all of that. In TTT2 you see people who only started Tekken with this iteration like RunitBlack get 2nd at a major and top the online ranking systems. Something like that would never happen back in T5.

The only thing that I agree is pretty complicated is the Tag Assault system since that pretty much gives you the ability to control the comeback mechanic of the game and adds so many layers of mind games behind red life management, tag crash management, and rage management. But still that doesn't make it as unforgiving as Tekken 5 was. I know people may disagree... but IMO the newer Tekkens are easier to play.

EDIT:

About the 1000's of moves you have to memorize. You don't necessarily need to memorize them. There is always a certain logic behind the moves in Tekken that lets you know how to react without sitting at home and memorizing all the properties. For example when you have a move in a string that ends in a mid it's almost always guaranteed to be punishable. If the string is safe, then there must have been a high in that that you could duck or a low in there that you could low parry. Launchers from while standing positions are also moves that you know are usually punishable. Launchers that crush lows and such are more punishable than usual and more often than not, launch punishable. Lows by rule of thumb are all punishable. Just by using that knowledge and application of logic you can get by Tekken without being an encyclopedia. And with experience you can refine the punishment with their optimal moves. Of coarse there are always exceptions that you have to keep in mind but those moves are almost always well known and abused in matches for you to remember.

 

[Dahbomb]

Tekken 5 considered the most complicated Tekken?

Its just one guy, no need to attribute the inaccuracies of one poster to the whole forum.

 

[alstein]

Super Turbo had a lot of things going for it though. Its history, its popularity of being the biggest fighting game, and all that. Now there are options to other games. Why does anybody have to deal with 8-2 matchups anymore. Back then you had no choice. What were your options around ST time? MK?

Persona had other issues as well. A niche market (niche anime rpg, small roster, and characters that people that didn't play the RPG couldn't connect with. Mike Ross, Champ, and many others have said the same thing. I have personally heard it at locals. First thing they do is go through character select. If they don't like any of the characters visually, then there is even less incentive to play.

I think you hit on something here- there are so many options now, that folks have "their game". It takes a good bit to get folks to try your game out seriously.

Take BBCP. -it's solid. That said, I feel like it isn't better than what I enjoy the most now, so I'm not playing it much.

Ironically, I think Persona's design was why I liked it- it wasn't your typical Arcsys cast (I don't like GG chars that much, and really don't like BB chars). P4C is the only game I'm hype for coming out next year (will get USF4 as well on PC)

The FGC needs something new, big, and good- the numbers will continue to decline slowly and steadily until we get that.

 

[Ragingnight]

Just personally speaking.... Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 are SIGNIFICANTLY easier to learn compared to Tekken 5.

The systems like bound and such add so much structure and organization to the combo's that it was so much easier to deal with. The game system was slowed down as well and the leniency for breaking things like throws/counters/stuns.

You all talk about the generation of having instant gratification and such... Tekken Tag 2 did all of that. In TTT2 you see people who only started Tekken with this iteration like RunitBlack get 2nd at a major and top the online ranking systems. Something like that would never happen back in T5.

The only thing that I agree is pretty complicated is the Tag Assault system since that pretty much gives you the ability to control the comeback mechanic of the game and adds so many layers of mind games behind red life management, tag crash management, and rage management. But still that doesn't make it as unforgiving as Tekken 5 was. I know people may disagree... but IMO the newer Tekkens are easier to play.

EDIT:

About the 1000's of moves you have to memorize. You don't necessarily need to memorize them. There is always a certain logic behind the moves in Tekken that lets you know how to react without sitting at home and memorizing all the properties. For example when you have a move in a string that ends in a mid it's almost always guaranteed to be punishable. If the string is safe, then there must have been a high in that that you could duck or a low in there that you could low parry. Launchers from while standing positions are also moves that you know are usually punishable. Launchers that crush lows and such are more punishable than usual and more often than not, launch punishable. Lows by rule of thumb are all punishable. Just by using that knowledge and application of logic you can get by Tekken without being an encyclopedia. And with experience you can refine the punishment with their optimal moves. Of coarse there are always exceptions that you have to keep in mind but those moves are almost always well known and abused in matches for you to remember.

Remember who you are talking to. You're talking to people who are knowledgeable (to an extent) about fighting games. How is a new person going to know this shit?

Tekken may or may not be hard, since thats all subjective. What isn't subjective is that Tekken is more bloated that most 2d games and that in itself can be a deterrent to new players. Yes you have exceptions but can you explain why TTT2 didn't retain the people that played?

I think you hit on something here- there are so many options now, that folks have "their game". It takes a good bit to get folks to try your game out seriously.

Take BBCP. -it's solid. That said, I feel like it isn't better than what I enjoy the most now, so I'm not playing it much.

Ironically, I think Persona's design was why I liked it- it wasn't your typical Arcsys cast (I don't like GG chars that much, and really don't like BB chars). P4C is the only game I'm hype for coming out next year (will get USF4 as well on PC)

The FGC needs something new, big, and good- the numbers will continue to decline slowly and steadily until we get that.

Fighting games in general need to dial it back. Way to many games are hurting the playerbase. Before it was too little, now its too much. I mean we all know SF5, MK10, GG, BB: CP, P4A:C, and many more fighting games will come. How much more can gamers (not the fgc) take before they stop giving two shits about the genre?

 

[DEATH™]

To add to AAK's point, T5 isn't "hard" in a way that TTT2 is hard. The problem is T5 is "cheap"... Hellsweeps as low launchers? Julia's Elbow carryig you from wall to wall? Low parries does full damage? Oki horrible except for select chars? Movement is too good? Sorry but if you are complaining now that tekken is too hard, just play that game where you need to be fundamentally solid, where BDC, electric SS and lightdashes are actually neccesities instead of luxuries, before you even lay a scratch to anybody.

Looking back, I can't play that game anymore... that game isn't fun compared to TTT2 Imo... makes me appreaciate Bound and some system changes too (like harder wall carrying, bigger juggle damage scaling etc.). In TTT2, there are many ways to win, which can be good for newcomers, or bad depending on their perspective...

and please, no more of this tekken is dying stuff... Global Championships, Mastercup, TFC and TXT just came and they are awesome...

 

[Ragingnight]

To add to AAK's point, T5 isn't "hard" in a way that TTT2 is hard. The problem is T5 is "cheap"... Hellsweeps as low launchers? Julia's Elbow carryig you from wall to wall? Low parries does full damage? Oki horrible except for select chars? Movement is too good? Sorry but if you are complaining now that tekken is too hard, just play that game where you need to be fundamentally solid, where BDC, electric SS and lightdashes are actually neccesities instead of luxuries, before you even lay a scratch to anybody.

Looking back, I can't play that game anymore... that game isn't fun compared to TTT2 Imo... makes me appreaciate Bound and some system changes too (like harder wall carrying, bigger juggle damage scaling etc.). In TTT2, there are many ways to win, which can be good for newcomers, or bad depending on their perspective...

and please, no more of this tekken is dying stuff... Global Championships, Mastercup, TFC and TXT just came and they are awesome...

Once again you are talking about top players. You aren't talking about the casual people. The 90% of people. Yes the big name players will continue to play + some exceptions. That doesn't mean the scene is getting smaller.

Almost every game minus SF4, Umvc3 and I guess BB (i wont comment on smash since I know jack shit about that scene) is getting smaller. There has been a significant drop in
1) MK9
2) Injustice
3) Tekken Tag 2
4) Soul Calibur 5
5) Persona 4 Arena
6) Skullgirls
7) SFxT

Even SF4 and Umvc3 have stagnated. Nobody new is coming in, but I bet you there are people who are quitting. They might not be top players, but they are still people.
Anybody with a brain and eyes can see that there are more people LEAVING the scene/game than coming in. That is why certain games appear to be "dead". Of course certain things stimulate the scene (dlc, updates, steam release) but its not enough to retain the people.

edit
Your first paragraph is talking from a competitive level. What I'm saying is that Tekken is hard to EVEN get to that part. Newcomers don't have to worry about that shit because they still have to figure out the basics. The basics in tekken are just more difficult than a 2d game. That in itself can play a role in being a deterrent for new players.

 

[Niitris]

None of the 3D fighters really have that stranglehold in the US because they all have a major issue that prevents people from getting into them.

Tekken has bloated onto itself, so it's harder for the playerbase to catch up. In the end, why play a game with that uphill battle when you can play a game where the hill isn't as steep and has more money going for it? (Capcom fighters)

Virtua Fighter is the same but with weaker branding (or at least it seems, VF isn't as hard as people believe, but the perception is that "it's as good/better than Tekken, so it must be hard").

There hasn't been a Soul game people have gotten behind since 2.

DoA has been mechanically flawed for it's entire lifespan and the TnA doesn't help any (but isn't as big as a deal as people like to believe).

No one will deny that branding plays a part in what games become popular, but people would rather play a good game with no-names (Skullgirls) than a turd with star names (MKvsDC). If SF5 is great, no doubt it will be the main game; if SF5 is utter crap, it isn't doing better than GGXrd even in the US.

 

[Dahbomb]

Calling Tekken 5 cheap is disingenuous as basically every Tekken before it was super cheap. There was a time where there were no low parries or low block stagger and you could mid/low people all day. Remember Ogre unblockables in T3, Jin unblockables in T4, Heihachi's EWGF in T3? That shit was cheap.

I am sure in a future Tekken game some of the shit in TTT2 is going to look cheap in comparison. "OMG 60% combos that's so cheap!"

 

[AAK]

Remember who you are talking to. You're talking to people who are knowledgeable (to an extent) about fighting games. How is a new person going to know this shit?

It's all relative... If a new player comes up to a Soul Calibur game and sees Keev do all this crazy stuff with Nightmare they'll get flustered. If a new player goes online and gets paired up with a skilled Dhalsim player teleporting all over the place with fireballs and ultras crossing him up they'll go through the same learning phase.

Tekken may or may not be hard, since thats all subjective. What isn't subjective is that Tekken is more bloated that most 2d games and that in itself can be a deterrent to new players. Yes you have exceptions but can you explain why TTT2 didn't retain the people that played?

Maybe you're right that people left because according to them it's "bloated". But maybe there are other games that cater more to them then Tekken. Regardless of how hard something is, if it looks cool and it appeals to you then you'll go the distance. Tekken just didn't appeal to them. There is a charm to the game and there is an audience for it. it's not as big as Smash Brothers or such but it's still an audience that likes it and they deserve a game that caters to their audience.

As for why is Tekken so much smaller now that it was in Tekken 5.... and the answer has been said before. Tekken was THE new game to play in that era. and this was an era where arcades were still around as well. It had 0 competition. And yes EVERYBODY played it back then. I was looking at the 2004 nationals player list and it had players like Sanford, Fubarduck, JWong, Valle, R Ortiz, among others. T5 also united all console players and arcade players since it was the first arcade machine that had a PS2 pad controller input.

Tekken is also an arcade game. Tekken 6 came out in arcades in 2007. It finally came to consoles in 2009. Tekken Tag Tournament 2 came out in arcades in 2011 and had to wait until the holiday of 2012 for console people to get it. The sense of discovery is lost among the console community so they feel like they're getting an old game. There are so many factors at play here. Along with how Tekken used to be synonymous with Sony and when it went multiplatform the Sony devoted players ignored it then.

In the end, a game like Tekken deserves to exist and I personally don't want them to turn it into something else. For people who want a dumbed down Tekken there is already the Tekken Revolution thing out on PS3 and it has pretty much equal number of players as TTT2. Dumbing it down didn't necessarily bring so many people into it.

 

[Ragingnight]

It's all relative... If a new player comes up to a Soul Calibur game and sees Keev do all this crazy stuff with Nightmare they'll get flustered. If a new player goes online and gets paired up with a skilled Dhalsim player teleporting all over the place with fireballs and ultras crossing him up they'll go through the same learning phase.



Maybe you're right that people left because according to them it's "bloated". But maybe there are other games that cater more to them then Tekken. Regardless of how hard something is, if it looks cool and it appeals to you then you'll go the distance. Tekken just didn't appeal to them. There is a charm to the game and there is an audience for it. it's not as big as Smash Brothers or such but it's still an audience that likes it and they deserve a game that caters to their audience.

As for why is Tekken so much smaller now that it was in Tekken 5.... and the answer has been said before. Tekken was THE new game to play in that era. and this was an era where arcades were still around as well. It had 0 competition. And yes EVERYBODY played it back then. I was looking at the 2004 nationals player list and it had players like Sanford, Fubarduck, JWong, Valle, R Ortiz, among others. T5 also united all console players and arcade players since it was the first arcade machine that had a PS2 pad controller input.

Tekken is also an arcade game. Tekken 6 came out in arcades in 2007. It finally came to consoles in 2009. Tekken Tag Tournament 2 came out in arcades in 2011 and had to wait until the holiday of 2012 for console people to get it. The sense of discovery is lost among the console community so they feel like they're getting an old game. There are so many factors at play here. Along with how Tekken used to be synonymous with Sony and when it went multiplatform the Sony devoted players ignored it then.

In the end, a game like Tekken deserves to exist and I personally don't want them to turn it into something else. For people who want a dumbed down Tekken there is already the Tekken Revolution thing out on PS3 and it has pretty much equal number of players as TTT2. Dumbing it down didn't necessarily bring so many people into it.

1st point. SC fundamentally is easier than Tekken. Movement is easier, and everybody has a basic AA/BB punish. SC is (imo) a ton easier than tekken, especially SC5.

2nd point. No Dhalsim is going to get away with that shit. LETS BE REAL HERE. Who the fuck gets hit by that shit unless you're playing a really good dhalsim. I have seen scrubs (my friends) play online and they have beaten people that actually know how to play by doing random shit. My friend can't even do a dp 50% of the time, let alone do a super/utlra. 2D games are more accessible and thus feel rewarded faster than a 3d game.

That shit does not fly in a tekken game. I can't mash my way to victory (unless i play caps). 2D games are fundamentally easier. There is no comparison.

3rd point. Your t5/t6 talk is fine. I actually agree. It released at a good time ("dark ages") and wasn't garbage so it drew in more people.

4th point. Using Tekken Rev as a comparison is unfair and you know it. There is no way to compare it because 1) no offline local mode and 2) it came out AFTER ttt2. Do you really think the people that bought ttt2 and quit, would suddenly download Tekken Rev?

Fighting games in general are in a decline. EVO has gotten bigger, but I think that is due to a more unified FGC + the rise of streams.

Big events will continue to be big, but smaller "majors" will fall out unless something big/new pops up. USF4 might bring back a grip of people, but those are people who previously played SF4 competitively and quit, not people who never played SF4.

 

[DEATH™]

Calling Tekken 5 cheap is disingenuous as basically every Tekken before it was super cheap. There was a time where there were no low parries or low block stagger and you could mid/low people all day. Remember Ogre unblockables in T3, Jin unblockables in T4, Heihachi's EWGF in T3? That shit was cheap.

I am sure in a future Tekken game some of the shit in TTT2 is going to look cheap in comparison. "OMG 60% combos that's so cheap!"

Don't remind me... Seriously... I'm sitting in the corner cringing right now...

But I imagine later when we look back, we'll say Lars is cheap lol but still...

#BUFFLARS

It's all relative... If a new player comes up to a Soul Calibur game and sees Keev do all this crazy stuff with Nightmare they'll get flustered. If a new player goes online and gets paired up with a skilled Dhalsim player teleporting all over the place with fireballs and ultras crossing him up they'll go through the same learning phase.



Maybe you're right that people left because according to them it's "bloated". But maybe there are other games that cater more to them then Tekken. Regardless of how hard something is, if it looks cool and it appeals to you then you'll go the distance. Tekken just didn't appeal to them. There is a charm to the game and there is an audience for it. it's not as big as Smash Brothers or such but it's still an audience that likes it and they deserve a game that caters to their audience.

As for why is Tekken so much smaller now that it was in Tekken 5.... and the answer has been said before. Tekken was THE new game to play in that era. and this was an era where arcades were still around as well. It had 0 competition. And yes EVERYBODY played it back then. I was looking at the 2004 nationals player list and it had players like Sanford, Fubarduck, JWong, Valle, R Ortiz, among others. T5 also united all console players and arcade players since it was the first arcade machine that had a PS2 pad controller input.

Tekken is also an arcade game. Tekken 6 came out in arcades in 2007. It finally came to consoles in 2009. Tekken Tag Tournament 2 came out in arcades in 2011 and had to wait until the holiday of 2012 for console people to get it. The sense of discovery is lost among the console community so they feel like they're getting an old game. There are so many factors at play here. Along with how Tekken used to be synonymous with Sony and when it went multiplatform the Sony devoted players ignored it then.

In the end, a game like Tekken deserves to exist and I personally don't want them to turn it into something else. For people who want a dumbed down Tekken there is already the Tekken Revolution thing out on PS3 and it has pretty much equal number of players as TTT2. Dumbing it down didn't necessarily bring so many people into it.

QFT. Either people like Tekken or don't... I can't force Panda to play Tekken and I can't make USA love Soccer like they love their Football...

 

[alstein]

Almost every game minus SF4, Umvc3 and I guess BB (i wont comment on smash since I know jack shit about that scene) is getting smaller. There has been a significant drop in
1) MK9
2) Injustice
3) Tekken Tag 2
4) Soul Calibur 5
5) Persona 4 Arena
6) Skullgirls
7) SFxT

Even SF4 and Umvc3 have stagnated. Nobody new is coming in, but I bet you there are people who are quitting. They might not be top players, but they are still people.
Anybody with a brain and eyes can see that there are more people LEAVING the scene/game than coming in. That is why certain games appear to be "dead". Of course certain things stimulate the scene (dlc, updates, steam release) but its not enough to retain the people.
.

All games drop off with age. That's why you need updates and new games- to bring people in.

The issue is a new game has to do a good job of giving the new guy a chance. That's really hard in this genre.
The thing that helps the most is mass-market appeal- throw in enough crappy new players, and crappy new players can beat crappy new players. It's when a game doesn't have a lot of new blood that things can get depressing for newer players.


Tekken is probably the FG that is hardest for a newer player- especially if they've only played AE/Marvel. That's a big reason why it (and other 3D fighters) had a tough time this gen.


the one franchise I could see reviving itself next gen is SoulCal- but Namco's going to have to give a NRS-level effort to pull that off, and I doubt they'll do it.

 

[Dahbomb]

T5 was well received because it came after the shit that was T4. Now that game was released in the dark ages and quickly forgotten. T5 was a return to form for the series. Plus they actually patched the arcade for balance to keep the competitive side of things going and the whole card system was a nice touch at the arcades.

T5 was also released at a time when 2D games were getting stale as hell. I am talking about the same 3 fighting games over and over again (3rd Strike, MVC2 and CVS2). About the only exciting new 2D fighting game at the time was Guilty Gear.

After T5 the series just went into franchise fatigue. Its a classical example. Each game released was competent but every time they released a new Tekken game they lost sales. There is no other explanation for it.

 

[AAK]

1st point. SC fundamentally is easier than Tekken. Movement is easier, and everybody has a basic AA/BB punish. SC is (imo) a ton easier than tekken, especially SC5.

That's subjective. What's easy for someone can be much harder for someone else.

2nd point. No Dhalsim is going to get away with that shit. LETS BE REAL HERE. Who the fuck gets hit by that shit unless you're playing a really good dhalsim. I have seen scrubs (my friends) play online and they have beaten people that actually know how to play by doing random shit. My friend can't even do a dp 50% of the time, let alone do a super/utlra. 2D games are more accessible and thus feel rewarded faster than a 3d game.

That shit does not fly in a tekken game. I can't mash my way to victory (unless i play caps). 2D games are fundamentally easier. There is no comparison.

Yes things like that can work in Tekken. Especially Tekken revolution. If you're not composed... a dude mashing invincibles and mixing up with something like dragon tails can make you lose rounds.

4th point. Using Tekken Rev as a comparison is unfair and you know it. There is no way to compare it because 1) no offline local mode and 2) it came out AFTER ttt2. Do you really think the people that bought ttt2 and quit, would suddenly download Tekken Rev?

Why not? It came out almost a year after TTT2...and 2 years technically after TTT2 arcade. If someone is in the market for a game that is a simplified Tekken... TR is perfect for them.

Fighting games in general are in a decline. EVO has gotten bigger, but I think that is due to a more unified FGC + the rise of streams.

Big events will continue to be big, but smaller "majors" will fall out unless something big/new pops up. USF4 might bring back a grip of people, but those are people who previously played SF4 competitively and quit, not people who never played SF4.

These BIG events just need to scale down. for the market that's all. Fighting games are smaller but they'll never go away. And there will always be people in the scene who will keep holding these events... and I'll do the best of my ability to attend them.

 

[Ragingnight]

That's subjective. What's harder for someone can be much harder for someone else.

err how could movement be harder in SC? I'm being serious here.

Yes things like that can work in Tekken. Especially Tekken revolution. If you're not composed... a dude mashing invincibles and mixing up with something like dragon tails can make you lose rounds.

Your TR example does not fly. The game just came out. For more than a decade that scenario has NEVER existed in tekken. There is no invincible moves in tekken like in TR. It is not a stable of the franchise.

Why not? It came out almost a year after TTT2...and 2 years technically after TTT2 arcade. If someone is in the market for a game that is a simplified Tekken... TR is perfect for them.

Because Namco isn't advertising it as a simple tekken. I can talk to my friends that buy fighting games and I bet you none of them even know TR even exist let alone know its easier unless I tell them so.

I'm not saying tekken has to dumb things down. I'm just trying to show you why people are not jumping up and down for a tekken like they are for SF. Its not about nuthugging capcom or anything like that. This whole start of this conversation was to talk about why tekken, doa and other 3d fighters aren't prominent compared to 2d fighters. Its not about dumbing down the games or anything like that. Nobody is suggesting Tekken should be dumbed down. People are just explaining why is there a discrepancy between 2d fighters and 3d fighters when it comes to maintaining numbers.

 

[toddhunter]

The next Tekken should:

1. Be a numbered entry. None of this TTTTT2 or revolution business.
2. Drop the roster back to something manageable.
3. Be a 1v1 fighter.
4. Update from the 1994 engine and not have 6 minute load times for each of the ten menus you need to get into to start a fight (exaggerated for comedic purposes, but you get the point).
5. Not release years after people/countries with access to an arcade have already been playing it.

When all that is done and nobody cares or plays it? Then it will be a worry. TTT2 simply has a lot of issues but even then it has still had a good run.

 

[Lambda Pie]

i defending the downsize of Tekken as well.

a post i made in one of the older threads:

my idea for Tekken 7 is another time lapse, like 20 years. go old school, 12 characters initially, unlock 12 more and a couple of bosses by finishing the game with everyone.

cut characters. Tekken 3 survived without Kazuya, Ganryu, Kunimitsu or AK being no shows. the initial 12 could be 6 returning + 6 new:

- Jin
- Hwoarang
- Xiaoyu
- King
- Asuka
- Christie (cut Eddie and Tiger)
- 6 new

bring people back with classic Tekken.

 

[call_kotaku]

Tekken going back to Sony exclusivity and acting as a graphical/tech showcase for a new console might do them some favors like it did in the past, but that's pretty unlikely.

I don't feel like "making the game easier" will solve anything, because as people mentioned, there are easier 3D games (DOA), less bloated 3D games (VF), along with however dozens of flavors of 2D games, and none of them are doing that well outside of the big 2.

Weren't Lars and Jinpachi added to be "simpler" characters for new players?

 

[AAK]

err how could movement be harder in SC? I'm being serious here.

Its all about being Relative. If you play Tekken Tag 2 for the first year you're not gonna be able to move like JDCR. Same thing like me playing Soul Calibur V for the first year... I won't be able to move like Keev.

Your TR example does not fly. The game just came out. For more than a decade that scenario has NEVER existed in tekken. There is no invincible moves in tekken like in TR. It is not a stable of the franchise.

Okay fine, in TTT2 it's like facing a Lilli who's doing Matterhorns and her sweep or a Lars that's doing his Lightning screw and sweep. Those moves have extremely similar properties to invincible moves in TR.

Because Namco isn't advertising it as a simple tekken. I can talk to my friends that buy fighting games and I bet you none of them even know TR even exist let alone know its easier unless I tell them so.

They dedicated Whole panels at 2 different Comic Cons to talk about Tekken Revolution and it had its own booth and segment at TGS. It definitely got marketing.

I'm not saying tekken has to dumb things down. I'm just trying to show you why people are not jumping up and down for a tekken like they are for SF. Its not about nuthugging capcom or anything like that. This whole start of this conversation was to talk about why tekken, doa and other 3d fighters aren't prominent compared to 2d fighters. Its not about dumbing down the games or anything like that. Nobody is suggesting Tekken should be dumbed down. People are just explaining why is there a discrepancy between 2d fighters and 3d fighters when it comes to maintaining numbers.

Yes, we can definitely agree there's major differences between the communities.

 

[alstein]

the downside of dropping the Tekken roster if you'll upset folks the way SF3 did. Which 20 chars do you keep?

Tekken is kinda boxed in hard as a series- Tekken 7 will be a real test if Harada's still a good game designer.

 

[DEATH™]

Weren't Lars and Jinpachi added to be "simpler" characters for new players?

Yeah... Lars got uf+3 which acts like a SRK but a launcher and also easier to do, making it a good panic move when you are overwhelmed. He even got a uf+4 which is a taggable launcher that's safe on block, insane range, low crushes like crazy and hard to SS punish.

Jinpachi got great range and of course, his wgf is just df+2, which is so easy to do, not to mention, insane damage.

This is some of the reasons I'm baffled at why people keep complaining about the game when most of the time, the answer is just to pick the right character that fits what you want. There is at least 1 char that will fit your taste aesthetic and/or gameplay wise.

 

[Ragingnight]

Yeah... Lars got uf+3 which acts like a SRK but a launcher and also easier to do, making it a good panic move when you are overwhelmed. He even got a uf+4 which is a taggable launcher that's safe on block, insane range, low crushes like crazy and hard to SS punish.

Jinpachi got great range and of course, his wgf is just df+2, which is so easy to do, not to mention, insane damage.

This is some of the reasons I'm baffled at why people keep complaining about the game when most of the time, the answer is just to pick the right character that fits what you want. There is at least 1 char that will fit your taste aesthetic and/or gameplay wise.

How many characters are in tekken tag 2? How many moves does each character have? How is a person new to tekken going to find these right moves? How long will it take to find the right character?

You know these things because you play tekken. Just take the view of somebody new to fighting games. They don't know what SS punish, safe on block, crushes. They just know whats cheap and what works. A lot of cheap stuff in tekken is not obvious to people.

I can show anybody Chris G morrigan and they will say that shit is cheap. The same goes for Sagat with tiga shot. Same goes for Chie oki setup. 2D games are just easier to pickup because moves are more distinguishable.

 

[DEATH™]

How many characters are in tekken tag 2? How many moves does each character have? How is a person new to tekken going to find these right moves? How long will it take to find the right character?

You know these things because you play tekken. Just take the view of somebody new to fighting games. They don't know what SS punish, safe on block, crushes. They just know whats cheap and what works. A lot of cheap stuff in tekken is not obvious to people.

I can show anybody Chris G morrigan and they will say that shit is cheap. The same goes for Sagat with tiga shot. Same goes for Chie oki setup. 2D games are just easier to pickup because moves are more distinguishable.

Here's the problem... You call "SS punish", we called "He dodged it". You call "Backdash Cancel" we called "he's backing away".

If you take away all the terminologies and just show the concepts, Tekken is the most intuitive fighter out... Seriously. I dunno why it's different here in the West but back then, we easily understand what's happening... Steve's WR 2 crushing the hellsweep? What we saw was Steve jumping over the low attack. Devil Jin SS 2 got punished? Devil Jin threw a wide open attack that left his guard open. Maybe we got the advantage of seeing people brawl on the street every time back home but still... Even the controls are limb based that someone will have an idea on what command a move is just by looking at the animation.

Look, a guy who's a Hajime no Ippo fan has already know how Steve plays and knows all of his moves by heart. TKD practitioners already can have a bit understanding on how Baek and Hwo moves work.

I dunno but I think it's about mindset. From what I observed too, a complete new player who haven't started playing any kind of FG will have a better time learning Tekken than a guy who played SF or Marvel just because they don't have the 2D way of fighting embedded on their minds. In SF you have to know all your normals and specials, in Tekken you just need to be observant of the animation, so if you get hit by something for the first time, you will be able to defend it at least the second or third or immediately after the match.

 

[Lambda Pie]

the downside of dropping the Tekken roster if you'll upset folks the way SF3 did. Which 20 chars do you keep?

it's a risk i would take. a new gen is the perfect canvas for a fresh start.

retire Heihachi. keep only one assassin sister. keep only one King. cut duplicate styles. cut Mokujin/Combot.

folks will never be happy with the roster no matter what, so go crazy.

 

[Passive Assassin]

http://www.twitch.tv/toughcookietv oni soo stroink

 

[DEATH™]

it's a risk i would take. a new gen is the perfect canvas for a fresh start.

retire Heihachi. keep only one assassin sister. keep only one King. cut duplicate styles. cut Mokujin/Combot.

folks will never be happy with the roster no matter what, so go crazy.

Heihachi was almost cut in T5... The whole fan base was pissed...

Again don't you dare try to kill Armor King or you will get your house burned down and risk yourself getting stunnered...

You don't kill Anna... You don't kill Bruce...

and you don't kill Wang...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0infF-sUIEg

I dare you to try to kill Jun and Kuni too and get excommunicated by Twitter and Tumblr peeps...

Again, as alstein said, Tekken has got to a point where it's completely defined as a franchise. You expect the chars, wide variety of moves, and juggles... If Harada needs to experiment, they need a new IP for it...

 

[Horseress]

Damn, I'd forgot completely that Capcom Cup Asia finals will happen this weekend! This will be so godlike, let's go Infiltration!

EDIT: LOL, Walmart stealing Canada's ideas

 

[Lost Fragment]

I wish I had the time to learn how to play Tekken but I ain't got time for that shit. Maybe if there were only 20ish characters, fewer mechanics, and not having a bunch of exceptions to every rule.

 

[Horseress]

Everybody keeps typing "wwww" at the Topanga stream (myself included), does someone knows what those "www" mean?

 

[pixelish]

Everybody keeps typing "wwww" at the Topanga stream (myself included), does someone knows what those "www" mean?

basically 'lol' in japanese

 

[alstein]

it's a risk i would take. a new gen is the perfect canvas for a fresh start.

retire Heihachi. keep only one assassin sister. keep only one King. cut duplicate styles. cut Mokujin/Combot.

folks will never be happy with the roster no matter what, so go crazy.

That's what I do as well, but that still leaves you with around 25 or so.


If Tekken can't change, it needs to be retired, make TTT2 the last game, and start with a new IP.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Games like COD and Halo have replaced Tekken as the game you play on your sofa with friends. It's that simple.

Tekken needs to have a massive roster cut, and probably a movelist cut too. And it needs a decent tutorial, and probably an in-game explanation of each character, how they work, what their basic good stuff is, etc.

This isn't 2000 anymore. If people want to rinse a game, they have stuff like easy-mode online shooters. You need to make the game fun without work.

SF4 is the most popular game in the community by a good margin. It is the most simple fighter on the market. Two and two equals four.

 

[.la1n]

Games like COD and Halo have replaced Tekken as the game you play on your sofa with friends. It's that simple.

Tekken needs to have a massive roster cut, and probably a movelist cut too. And it needs a decent tutorial, and probably an in-game explanation of each character, how they work, what their basic good stuff is, etc.

This isn't 2000 anymore. If people want to rinse a game, they have stuff like easy-mode online shooters. You need to make the game fun without work.

SF4 is the most popular game in the community by a good margin. It is the most simple fighter on the market. Two and two equals four.

Roster cut sounds all well and good but I have a feeling they'd just cut the classics and keep stupid designs like Bob and Lars.

 

[Niitris]

Nobody's a lock. Tekken did just fine without Kazuya (the arguable face of the series) in T3, so nobody is obligated to be in the next game.

Downsize Tekken and emphasize quality over quantity. I'm sorry, but half of Tekken roster isn't necessary in the first go round... is anyone who appeared in less than half of the games really necessary to have in T7?

I don't want Tekken to be dumbed down; DoA already has the "gateway-3D fighter" moniker locked up and they don't even take full advantage of it. I do want Tekken to have an easier entry point. Clearly it's the next biggest brand after SF, MK, the Superheros, and Smash and has the potential to be the de facto 3D fighter by miles (somehow it still is despite all of the doom spreading), but it has to attract new players to maintain it's momentum and to compete with Capcom fighters.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Games like COD and Halo have replaced Tekken as the game you play on your sofa with friends. It's that simple.

Being a SF fanboy since 1992, I remember being kind of depressed seeing NPD numbers back in the day when Capcom fighters were selling in the hundreds of thousands and every new Tekken would sell 2-3 million in just North America. But yeah, times have changed. Tekken use to put up crazy Madden like numbers back in the day.

 

[casperOne]

I don't think I've seen a fighter on both consoles/PC that take rage quitting into serious consideration like that

I believe that Super SF4 did have a mechanism where it would start locking you out or not matching you up if you disconnected too often. There is a percentage that was/is displayed when you match up IIRC (it's been a while since I cared to notice).

TvC and Marvel have a disconnector hell feature.

But I don't think that KOF is doing anything that hasn't been done before. Regardless, it's good to see this put into a game with an online component.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I hope Guilty Gear gets more merchandise when Guilty Gear Xrd comes out.

those custom figmas for Slayer and Zappa were such a tease

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Harada fix your freaking game so it stops taking over our threads.

 

[enzo_gt]

Microsoft giving the new KI with all of the characters free to dedicated Xbox members.

 

[.la1n]

Microsoft giving the new KI with all of the characters free to dedicated Xbox members.

Sounds...not profitable for the game but pretty awesome.