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[Shouta]

I think her biggest matchup point is how well she can heat-up in neutral, but I'm hardly an expert.

Not really what I'm talking about. =P Neutral is required for her to get damage but she's not going to be playing neutral the entire time or turtling at all. The game systems and her own design prevent that. T.Hawk has a similar concept to her but due to the way the games are designed, he can be played purely in neutral or even defensively if you want despite being largely an offense based character.

 

[Dahbomb]

Tier list are fine.

It's people who think they're somehow not an individuals opinion based on the current time period of that games life that make it annoying.

Day 1 Tiers exist. Characters will stand out from others at this period of time and probably be easy to use and be effective first (First Order Optimal Strategies) but over time may weaken as people learn and understand the game and what the game emphasizes. Tier list are not set in stone, they are meant to be updated and changed as the game grows.

Yup this so much.

Also tier lists are fun.

 

[Infinite]

Tier list are fine.

It's people who think they're somehow not an individuals opinion based on the current time period of that games life that make it annoying.

Day 1 Tiers exist. Characters will stand out from others at this period of time and probably be easy to use and be effective first (First Order Optimal Strategies) but over time may weaken as people learn and understand the game and what the game emphasizes. Tier list are not set in stone, they are meant to be updated and changed as the game grows.

I'm not questioning the utility or importance of tier lists when I raised that question. Saying so & so is top tier because a dude did a combo with the character that you thought was cool is not what a tier list represents.

 

[Lostconfused]

I would too in fact. There are 6 players max in a game for Destiny and that's a high level "Raid". Destiny is just a PvE + PvP Multiplayer Online FPS, there is no "Massive" component to it.

Blizzard paired their raids down to 10 from 40. The game certainly got a lot less massive as it got more popular, if that's the benchmark you are using.

 

[Dlent]

Not really what I'm talking about. =P Neutral is required for her to get damage but she's not going to be playing neutral the entire time or turtling at all. The game systems and her own design prevent that. T.Hawk has a similar concept to her but due to the way the games are designed, he can be played purely in neutral or even defensively if you want despite being largely an offense based character.

Ah, I see what you mean; regarding system limitations on playstyle, I think the universal Arcsys mechanic of negative penalty is the best example. Another factor in this would be that almost every Blazblue character can convert random pokes into at least short combos which give the oki or corner carry, as opposed to say T-Hawk where he only gets damage and small frame advantage off most pokes.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

I love tier lists and match up charts. I am just irritated when they come from poor players or are entirely simple level 1 meta talking points.

 

[Azure J]

Watching Xrd videos...this shit is next level anime breh...oh my goodness...

I wonder if I just have a high tolerance level but Xrd just looks fucking fantastic all around. We're finally out of the "blocky ass models with sharp black outlines and dead doll face" ghetto brehs.

Link me to your lucario thoughts I'm very interested.


smh

I just realized it was one exclamation over a demonstration of his aura mechanic on D1's stream yesterday, but the long and short of it is that:

+ Lots of better and less janky looking attack animations with great hitboxes
+ Aura Sphere got buffed
+ His overall knock back got buffed
+++++++++ Aura mechanic changes almost guarantee that this character will be amazing as a side effect/stack on with how high percentages can get to in game at current. If anything, it's like the Dark Vergil phenomena. Lucario's either going to reap the most benefits from the combination of his own (buffed) character mechanics and the system mechanics in place at current, or he's going to fucking destroy this game.

I really need to find some time stamps from that stream. There was so much to parse through and all of the info is really good too. Greninja, Palutena, Zero Suit Samus, Bowser, Lucario and Sheik all look like problems with Rosalina being that "obviously stupid tier but no one's putting in the work yet" dark horse.

 

[Beckx]

I just realized it was one exclamation over a demonstration of his aura mechanic on D1's stream yesterday, but the long and short of it is that:

Can you link that stream to me? Might be helpful on my quest to move beyond the Pressing Buttons stage.

 

[Infinite]

I wonder if I just have a high tolerance level but Xrd just looks fucking fantastic all around. We're finally out of the "blocky ass models with sharp black outlines and dead doll face" ghetto brehs.



I just realized it was one exclamation over a demonstration of his aura mechanic on D1's stream yesterday, but the long and short of it is that:

+ Lots of better and less janky looking attack animations with great hitboxes
+ Aura Sphere got buffed
+ His overall knock back got buffed
+++++++++ Aura mechanic changes almost guarantee that this character will be amazing as a side effect/stack on with how high percentages can get to in game at current.

I really need to find some time stamps from that stream. There was so much to parse through and all of the info is really good too. Greninja, Palutena, Zero Suit Samus, Bowser, Lucario and Sheik all look like problems with Rosalina being that "obviously stupid tier but no one's putting in the work yet" dark horse.

I'll dig through his archives myself when I have the time.

 

[SloaneRisette]

Was it just me or did I hear that there would be a Smash 3DS tournament at TFC?

 

[Rhapsody]

You mean like the P4U2 news/gameplay thread?

Game isn't exactly new though. P4U2 is old. New characters are somewhat easier to place just because you can relatively place them (and even then, it's mostly just knowledge from what people currently know of a new character).

With that said, out of all the console/DLC exclusive characters, I'm impressed by Rise, Adachi, and Marie so far. Lots of scary stuff they can do. Ken's nice, but he doesn't feel like he's quite there like those three.

Also, Marie's Awakening super is scary stuff, especially as corner oki when you don't have meter.

 

[Kimosabae]

Tier lists are fun when you're discussing them with intelligent people. The problem with that is that tier discussions often take place on the internet.


I've always preferred character matchup charts, myself. Matchup discussion is way more productive (and foundational for tier lists) than pure tier talk.

 

[Anne]

Tbh I think Marie is the worst new char so far though :v

 

[Infinite]

Tier lists are fun when you're discussing them with intelligent people. The problem with that is that tier discussions often take place on the internet.

I've always preferred character matchup charts, myself. Matchup discussion is way more productive (and foundational for tier lists) than pure tier talk.

Agreed. I was under the impression that tier lists are a direct reflection of match ups.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Well you can have the problem where a character can have a MU chart where they body a ton of characters but have a few losing matchups then another who doesn't body the cast quite as bad but has less or even no losing matchups. Who's higher on the tier list?

 

[Shouta]

Game isn't exactly new though. P4U2 is old. New characters are somewhat easier to place just because you can relatively place them (and even then, it's mostly just knowledge from what people currently know of a new character).

With that said, out of all the console/DLC exclusive characters, I'm impressed by Rise, Adachi, and Marie so far. Lots of scary stuff they can do. Ken's nice, but he doesn't feel like he's quite there like those three.

Also, Marie's Awakening super is scary stuff, especially as corner oki when you don't have meter.

Tbh I think Marie is the worst new char so far though :v

I think Ken's the best character, faults aside, myself. That's not just because I'm a Ken player either, lol. The other new chars are more interesting though.

 

[Infinite]

Well you can have the problem where a character can have a MU chart where they body a ton of characters but have a few losing matchups then another who doesn't body the cast quite as bad but has less or even no losing matchups. Who's higher on the tier list?

This is one way you can pull it off

Note the point system.

 

[Rhapsody]

Tbh I think Marie is the worst new char so far though :v

While she's definitely not Kokonoe 1.0 tier, I want to say she has promise to be up there. But thank god at the moment she doesn't seem to have autopilot things that would work most of the time (like imagine if j.C was body attribute or if unblockable graviton was a good starter).

I'm honestly scared of Rise right now of the new characters. High damage with few resources. If she could do 22A combos on crouching opponents, she'd be pretty brain dead.

I think Ken's the best character, faults aside, myself. That's not just because I'm a Ken player either, lol. The other new chars are more interesting though.

I'll probably have to grind out more MUs on him. I've mostly faced my friend with him and I was being oppressive with Narukami and also using Adachi (which he was learning the matchup). He's solid though.

 

[Shouta]

This is one way you can pull it off

Note the point system.

It should be pointed that this seems to be results of all the match-ups played in the arcade between the chars, I think? If i'm right, it's a data-backed tier list with a few problems.

 

[Professor Beef]

Glad to hear my main from Brawl, Lucario, is even better in Smush 4.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

The flaws in a tier list based on data are obvious but I'd love to see one for my games.

 

[Tik-Tok]

It should be pointed that this seems to be results of all the match-ups played in the arcade between the chars, I think? If i'm right, it's a data-backed tier list with a few problems.

I've been arguing for this type of tier list for a long time.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Only a few people play each character at a super high level so a tier list based on results from the entire playerbase doesn't make sense except for curiousity's sake.

 

[El Sloth]

This is one way you can pull it off
http://i.imgur.com/S3luoYh.jpg[/mg]

Note the point system.[/QUOTE]
Are Byakuya and Nanase not available in arcades yet? Or this just an old list?

 

[Kimosabae]

I think you can draw some quality implications from a results chart, though. While regions would vary (for example) those results are ultimately a manifestation of the characters people choose to play. You just don't get the "why". That's why a community matchup chart should be built on dialectics.

Back in the Soulcalibur 2 days, we were in the process of building a matchup character chart and it looked similar to that. We never finished it, but the knowledge gained through the discussions were substantial. I still feel like I know that game like the back of my hand.

Osu 16 Bit:

I think your dilemma is too abstract. If the character with the better matchup chart has bad matchups only against lower ranked characters - that's ultimately going to be the better character. The lower ranked characters might see an increase in frequency at tournaments, but that would only reflect the meta, not that character's mechanical pros and cons against the cast at large. There's granular distinctions to be made, there.

 

[Beckx]

Only a few people play each character at a super high level so a tier list based on results from the entire playerbase doesn't make sense except for curiousity's sake.

Though if you could ever have a player pool large enough to support more granular, skill based matchmaking it would start to make a lot more.

 

[Rhapsody]

Are Byakuya and Nanase not available in arcades yet? Or this just an old list?

Console only characters.

 

[Anne]

I think Ken's the best character, faults aside, myself. That's not just because I'm a Ken player either, lol. The other new chars are more interesting though.

Idk enough about him to say. Adachi and Rise are strong, Ken seems to have stuff but I just haven't experienced it all yet. They're all pretty good though!

 

[El Sloth]

Console only characters.

So they're not planning on adding them to original arcade version? Or is there some technical reason why they can't do that?

 

[.la1n]

Was it just me or did I hear that there would be a Smash 3DS tournament at TFC?

I haven't heard that but I haven't been following TFC news too closely. Speaking of TFC, any FGW guys going this year? I live / work pretty close to the venue so I planned on attending this year if anyone wants to meet up.

 

[Kikirin]

So they're not planning on adding them to original arcade version? Or is there some technical reason why they can't do that?

They're working on it.

Yesterday, Narita also teased that info about PS3 version update will be coming "very soon" and that Nanase & Byakuya will be released in the arcades by the time weather starts to get cold (I sure hope it means that they'll be in arcades before OTW-s- qualifiers start...)

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/inde...-news-gameplay-discussion/page-13#entry845973

 

[Passive Assassin]

http://www.twitch.tv/poongkotv

it's like god is speaking to me!

 

[pixelish]

http://www.twitch.tv/poongkotv

it's like god is speaking to me!

I have been watching this stream a lot lately mainly because of poongko's friend (hydebuffy). he is so funny.

 

[Master Milk]

good and bad are relative. You can have a game where every character is viable- that's what a consider a realistic balance goal. Not many games achieve this.

The way you were using them, no, they're not relative. Every character can be good. Every character can be bad. Good and bad are used, or at least should be used, to describe how well a character takes advantage of the system's mechanics. It's about their overall design, which doesn't have anything to do with balance.

Was it just me or did I hear that there would be a Smash 3DS tournament at TFC?

The website says Melee, Brawl, Project M, and 3DS

So they're not planning on adding them to original arcade version? Or is there some technical reason why they can't do that?

It'd be weird if it were a technical reason. Generally you'd keep them console exclusive for awhile to entice people to buy into it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Though if you could ever have a player pool large enough to support more granular, skill based matchmaking it would start to make a lot more.

I'm surprised people don't show some Evo statistics, feels like a good time to get a good picture of the state of the game.

 

[Karsticles]

I despise Day 1 tier lists because they are guaranteed to reflect personal ignorance. The guy who won the day 1 Smash 4 tournament said Palutena is trash tier, but he had no idea that she could use one of her custom up+B moves to tridash. No one is going to have an even vaguely reasonably idea of who is good and who is not, because no one can spend quality time with all of the characters in that period. See: JWong's Vanilla Sentinel comments.

I don't even feel comfortable talking about tier lists until 6 months out unless a character is clearly awful with no recourse (MvC2 Roll) or has ridiculous power levels.

 

[Azure J]

Can you link that stream to me? Might be helpful on my quest to move beyond the Pressing Buttons stage.

www.twitch.tv/d1mx

I'm going to try compiling a list of the character breakdowns he did yesterday.

Greninja
Falco
Shulk
Robin
Duck Hunt Dog
Palutena / Palutena Custom "Jump Glide" (I'm singling this bit of footage out just because what the fuck, they put tridashing into Smash)

 

[Rhapsody]

I despise Day 1 tier lists because they are guaranteed to reflect personal ignorance. The guy who won the day 1 Smash 4 tournament said Palutena is trash tier, but he had no idea that she could use one of her custom up+B moves to tridash. No one is going to have an even vaguely reasonably idea of who is good and who is not, because no one can spend quality time with all of the characters in that period. See: JWong's Vanilla Sentinel comments.

I don't even feel comfortable talking about tier lists until 6 months out unless a character is clearly awful with no recourse (MvC2 Roll) or has ridiculous power levels.

It's definitely fun looking back at those comments though. The days of Ice Man and Black Heart being top tier lol

Edit: Is there a non-twitch video or even gif of the Palutena tridash thing? My computer can't do twitch.

 

[Shouta]

Idk enough about him to say. Adachi and Rise are strong, Ken seems to have stuff but I just haven't experienced it all yet. They're all pretty good though!

Ken gets like 2-3.5k off everything pretty easily and gets up to 5k pretty quick with a little bit of bar spent. His normals have pretty sick range too and appropriate use of Koro can cover some of the holes in his recovery from them. Good use of Koro makes for decent pressure too.

His biggest problems are weak "Get off me" options and a certain lack of mids to make folks stop crouch blocking him. Throw and AoA gets him some good damage is the bright side of poor options to open folks up though, lol.

 

[El Sloth]

They're working on it.



http://www.dustloop.com/forums/inde...-news-gameplay-discussion/page-13#entry845973

Cool. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. I hope Byakuya becomes popular, I like watching what players do with his web shenanigans.

 

[Dahbomb]

I've been arguing for this type of tier list for a long time.

This type of tier list already exists in other games ala Dota 2.

Every single match played online is tallied. Hero win percentages are recorded over millions of matches. Trends and percentages are recorded after every patch. Further more tier lists are separated based on skill level (used to be High, Very High tier now its MMR based so don't know how it pans out now).

The result is that you get a decent picture which heroes are relatively good and which aren't but they are largely a poor reflection of character strength at the top level. A character like Zeus can dominate public matches even high MMR matches but in tournament games he is pretty much irrelevant. Likewise there are many high skill cap characters that time to develop but during that time they endure many losses which screw up their win percentages. Earth Spirit was like this even when he was completely broken at top level. Also just because it's a Very High match online doesn't mean everyone is playing seriously which further Skewers results.

The other thing is the "try hard" mentality. Average players see Dendi pick Pudge, an average character. All the players play that character but not at top levek, they get destroyed and the character's stats drop. This happens with top tier heroes as well.


My thing with these statistical tier lists is that they don't warrant fruitful discussion based around a game. You can only extract so much from stats and this is coming from a stats guy. Stats tier list boil down to "this character has most wins and thus is the best".

 

[Karsticles]

It's definitely fun looking back at those comments though. The days of Ice Man and Black Heart being top tier lol

Edit: Is there a non-twitch video or even gif of the Palutena tridash thing? My computer can't do twitch.

I watched the full recording, and I would still love Palutena tridash gifs. Looks so good...

I agree the comments are fun to look back on. But there's a difference between "this character seems really good" and "this character is top tier". I'll say the former plenty, but not the latter. I just have too much respect for what should go into calling something top tier.

 

[Beckx]

www.twitch.tv/d1mx

I'm going to try compiling a list of the character breakdowns he did yesterday.

Greninja
Falco
Shulk
Robin
Duck Hunt Dog
Palutena Palutena Custom "Jump Glide" (I'm singling this bit of footage out just because what the fuck, they put tridashing into Smash)

THANK YOU! Timestamps is going way beyond the call of duty and I really appreciate it.

 

[Rhapsody]

Ken gets like 2-3.5k off everything pretty easily and gets up to 5k pretty quick with a little bit of bar spent. His normals have pretty sick range too and appropriate use of Koro can cover some of the holes in his recovery from them. Good use of Koro makes for decent pressure too.

His biggest problems are weak "Get off me" options and a certain lack of mids to make folks stop crouch blocking him. Throw and AoA gets him some good damage is the bright side of poor options to open folks up though, lol.

I'd be up for some matches sometime, Shouta. More Ken experience, the better.

I watched the full recording, and I would still love Palutena tridash gifs. Looks so good...

I agree the comments are fun to look back on. But there's a difference between "this character seems really good" and "this character is top tier". I'll say the former plenty, but not the latter. I just have too much respect for what should go into calling something top tier.

Yeah, I do dislike it too despite how funny it is to look back on. Sometimes I feel like it gives people tunnel vision once a statement snowballs, and hurts development of finding new stuff.

 

[Anne]

Ken gets like 2-3.5k off everything pretty easily and gets up to 5k pretty quick with a little bit of bar spent. His normals have pretty sick range too and appropriate use of Koro can cover some of the holes in his recovery from them. Good use of Koro makes for decent pressure too.

His biggest problems are weak "Get off me" options and a certain lack of mids to make folks stop crouch blocking him. Throw and AoA gets him some good damage is the bright side of poor options to open folks up though, lol.

That's all cool though. The big question is "can he reliably deal with top tier buttons/mobility and consistently turn those hits into damage or a strong mix up/pressure situation."

Weak defense might not matter with how this game works, and lacking mids actually isn't an issue for a lot of characters. He might be pretty good then.

 

[Marz]

Feel like tri-dashing and divekicks are not even a problem in smash, because you don't have to worry about high low mixups or cross ups you just press L to shield. You also have tons more mobility across the board than in most 2D fighters.

 

[Karsticles]

I'd be up for some matches sometime, Shouta. More Ken experience, the better.


Yeah, I do dislike it too despite how funny it is to look back on. Sometimes I feel like it gives people tunnel vision once a statement snowballs, and hurts development of finding new stuff.

It's the downside of the new age of fighting games. Knowledge spreads faster, but so do opinions.

 

[Rhapsody]

That's all cool though. The big question is "can he reliably deal with top tier buttons/mobility and consistently turn those hits into damage or a strong mix up/pressure situation."

Weak defense might not matter with how this game works, and lacking mids actually isn't an issue for a lot of characters. He might be pretty good then.

Personally I don't think he can. Narukami blows him up for sure, same goes for Yosuke. Not having great anti airs makes him pretty free to some easy get ins (Adachi says hi).

 

[Anne]

Personally I don't think he can. Narukami blows him up for sure, same goes for Yosuke. Not having great anti airs makes him pretty free to some easy get ins (Adachi says hi).

Unfortunate if true.

 

[Kimosabae]

Feel like tri-dashing and divekicks are not even a problem in smash, because you don't have to worry about high low mixups or cross ups you just press L to shield. You also have tons more mobility across the board than in most 2D fighters.

It's about mobility and spacing.