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[BocoDragon]

I'm not sure if the late 90s otaku was all that different from the otaku of the 00s and 10s but I'm no scholar on the matter.

Even if Tifa and Cloud being canon at the end of FFVII was true it all went to shit when they made AC, basically confirmed nothing (AFAIK they slept in at least different beds, maybe different rooms) and reversed the status quo to the bullshit we were on before. There are less hints in AC about a relationship than the freaking game, and that was just setting things up. The movie happened after their relationship had had a beginning!

Basically: they had no balls to say their heroine was in a stable relationship with a man (aka boning). And I do chalk this up a bit (or a lot) to Japanese otaku culture and pandering. More the movie than the game.

I wasn't saying the otaku audience was different (though they were). I'm saying that these early video games weren't pandering to that otaku audience. Look at how cryptic all of these plot points were. Though jRPGs took many cues from anime, this was before they were entirely videogame anime. Had they concerns about the chastity of waifus, it would have been borne out in their portrayal in the plot. FFVII was completely unconcerned about that. The portrayal of the girls in the game was too shallow to care about portraying chastity. They barely explained most people's relationships in detail.

I think you are projecting your knowledge of anime/manga/otaku onto a much earlier era of gaming, where those elements were not considered as much, and certainly were not economic factors in how to make Japanese games. Not only was it a very primitive media, but even if it were mature, it was the 90s, and even anime/manga wasn't pandering to an otaku audience in the way that you describe. They were still in the wake of the bubble economy and anime was basically made for everyone. They hadn't doubled down on the otaku audience, because that was a factor after their market shrank.

 

[GoodMorningPluto]

Other than possibly Ashe who got married at the beginning of FFXII (and I say "possibly" because this is Japan and I totally see the possibility of sex not happening) has there ever been a confirmation of a FF heroine having sex with another character in a game?

Though this is fanfic-level sequel.

 

[Wazzy]

Though this is fanfic-level sequel.

Cecil and Rosa?

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I wasn't saying the otaku audience was different (though they were). I'm saying that these early video games weren't pandering to that otaku audience. Look at how cryptic all of these plot points were. Though jRPGs took many cues from anime, this was before they were entirely videogame anime. Had they concerns about the chastity of waifus, it would have been borne out in their portrayal in the plot. FFVII was completely unconcerned about that. The portrayal of the girls in the game was too shallow to care about portraying chastity. They barely explained most people's relationships in detail.

I think you are projecting your knowledge of anime/manga/otaku onto a much earlier era of gaming, where those elements were not considered as much, and certainly were not economic factors in how to make Japanese games. Not only was it a very primitive media, but even if it were mature, it was the 90s, and even anime/manga wasn't pandering to an otaku audience in the way that you describe. They were still in the wake of the bubble economy and anime was basically made for everyone. They hadn't doubled down on the otaku audience, because that was a factor after their market shrank.

I stand corrected. You know more of this than I do. You sound both eloquent and knowledgeable. I'll buy whatever you're selling when it comes to jrpgs from now on and I think you're right.

For my 90s self I thought the characters in FF7 were anything but shallow. Everyone (except Vincent and Yuffie) get the spotlight and backstory at some point. Unlike FF8 where they were lazy and went all "

Spoiler

we all came from the same orphanage, we saved on lots of individual back stories, yey

" ugh. Fuck that.

 

[Wazzy]

I stand corrected. You know more of this than I do. You sound both eloquent and knowledgeable. I'll buy whatever you're selling when it comes to jrpgs from now on and I think you're right.

For my 90s self I thought the characters in FF7 were anything but shallow. Everyone (except Vincent and Yuffie) get the spotlight and backstory at some point. Unlike FF8 where they were lazy and went all "we all came from the same orphanage, we saved on lots of individual back stories, yey" ugh. Fuck that.

But VIII doesn't do that at all. Let's take out the main five from the orphanage for a minute and look at characters like Rinoa, Laguna, Raine, Julia, Kiros and Ward. All of them are from different backgrounds. Then you have to realize that the orphanage only took place for a few years before each of them were sent to different regions with their new families. The orphanage twist was nothing more than something to show the GF memory loss part and that Cid wanted them to feel more attached to who they would have to kill.

 

[BocoDragon]

I stand corrected. You know more of this than I do. You sound both eloquent and knowledgeable. I'll buy whatever you're selling when it comes to jrpgs from now on and I think you're right.

For my 90s self I thought the characters in FF7 were anything but shallow. Everyone (except Vincent and Yuffie) get the spotlight and backstory at some point. Unlike FF8 where they were lazy and went all "we all came from the same orphanage, we saved on lots of individual back stories, yey" ugh. Fuck that.

Thanks

Don't get me wrong. FF7 characters were not shallow in a way that means "they were poor". I'm just saying that they came from a simpler time, when a tiny bit of characterization went a looooong way in an medium which didn't expect much plot. In 1997, they were the deepest characters.. but now, they would be considered very "cryptic" portrayals of character.

I love the FF7 characterization and I interpreted a lot out of it. But by modern standards, it didn't tell us a whole lot.

I think the noncommittal nature of the FF7 romance outcomes speaks to its era, rather than explains that the creators were intentionally noncommittal for reasons of maintaining mystery. I say this because I think FF7 told me a lot more than other games of the era did... but 20 years later I'm left wondering "what actually happened?" in a way that modern games would never leave me.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

But VIII doesn't do that at all. Let's take out the main five from the orphanage for a minute and look at characters like Rinoa, Laguna, Raine, Julia, Kiros and Ward. All of them are from different backgrounds. Then you have to realize that the orphanage only took place for a few years before each of them were sent to different regions with their new families. The orphanage twist was nothing more than something to show the GF memory loss part and that Cid wanted them to feel more attached to who they would have to kill.

You clearly remember that game more than I ever could hope to do. I blame that horrible Junction system on me never attempting to tackle that game again since I beat it in early 2000. If only I dint have to spend so much time drawing Magic til I had 100 of each and the game didn't penalized me for daring to use one. Bah.

And that tease of a "love story" sucked. You have them embracing in the logo

Spoiler

and we don't get to see them kiss at the end?

Pansies!

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Thanks

Don't get me wrong. FF7 characters were not shallow in a way that means "they were poor". I'm just saying that they came from a simpler time, when a tiny bit of characterization went a looooong way in an medium which didn't expect much plot. In 1997, they were the deepest characters.. but now, they would be considered very "cryptic" portrayals of character.

I love the FF7 characterization and I interpreted a lot out of it. But by modern standards, it didn't tell us a whole lot.

I think the noncommittal nature of the FF7 romance outcomes speaks to its era, rather than explains that the creators were intentionally noncommittal for reasons of maintaining mystery. I say this because I think FF7 told me a lot more than other games of the era did... but 20 years later I'm left wondering "what actually happened?" in a way that modern games would never leave me.

I haven't replayed FF7 in 15 years. I've been postponing a replay for a long time now but that sentence right there coupled with the improved PC version releasing on PS4 this year and I've decided I'm so going to replay FF7 one more time. Also to have it more clear in my mind before FFVIIR.

 

[Wazzy]

You clearly remember that game more than I ever could hope to do. I blame that horrible Junction system on me never attempting to tackle that game again since I beat it in early 2000. If only I dint have to spend so much time drawing Magic til I had 100 of each and the game didn't penalized me for daring to use one. Bah.

And that tease of a "love story" sucked. You have them embracing in the logo

Spoiler

and we don't get to see them kiss at the end?

Pansies!

I'm a huge fan of VIII so I remember a lot.

Honestly if you want to try out VIII again you should do it using Refine and GF abilities. It's the method that is most popular and generally the way to play the game. You pretty much never need to draw and it actually is easy to break the game doing it.

And I'm such a sucker for the ending since you do see them kiss but it zooms out while it's happening. Dat ending music and Squall smiling moment.

 

[BocoDragon]

I haven't replayed FF7 in 15 years. I've been postponing a replay for a long time now but that sentence right there coupled with the improved PC version releasing on PS4 this year and I've decided I'm so going to replay FF7 one more time. Also to have it more clear in my mind before FFVIIR.

I'll be with you! I have my PS1 discs and I was playing them recently. But I stopped.... I do feel like I want the upcoming PC port to be fresh. The re-translation will probably clear up the definitive version of the original story for us English speakers.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I'll be with you! I have my PS1 discs and I was playing them recently. But I stopped.... I do feel like I want the upcoming PC port to be fresh. The re-translation will probably clear up the definitive version of the original story for us English speakers.

Re-translation???? They're re-translating the PC game for PS4? Why this is the first time I'm hearing about this? Is this why it's taking them extra long to port the PC version to PS4?

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Actually, most post AC confirms that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is struggling and that there's no idea if it will even survive. Hell, Nomura wouldn't even acknowledge if there was a relationship.

Mm, the only post-AC material out there is Dirge of Cerberus, yar? I don't remember this tidbit from it.

Re-translation???? They're re-translating the PC game for PS4? Why this is the first time I'm hearing about this? Is this why it's taking them extra long to port the PC version to PS4?

IIRC, Kagari confirmed this. And about time, too. Honestly, that the original game is actually getting retranslated hugely diminishes my need for a remake.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

IIRC, Kagari confirmed this. And about time, too. Honestly, that the original game is actually getting retranslated hugely diminishes my need for a remake.

So only Kagari but no official word from Square about them doing it then?

 

[cj_iwakura]

Mm, the only post-AC material out there is Dirge of Cerberus, yar? I don't remember this tidbit from it.

They seemed to be getting along just fine in DoC... uh, for the ten seconds you see them.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Romance options tend to not mean as much when one of them is dead.

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

I'm a huge fan of VIII so I remember a lot.

Honestly if you want to try out VIII again you should do it using Refine and GF abilities. It's the method that is most popular and generally the way to play the game. You pretty much never need to draw and it actually is easy to break the game doing it.

And I'm such a sucker for the ending since you do see them kiss but it zooms out while it's happening. Dat ending music and Squall smiling moment.

this entire post

 

[Pagusas]

I really hope we get some new news soon, this thread is quickly devolving

 

[BibiMaghoo]

"he actually liked"? I think that only really depends on the choices you make in the game. Otherwise, she was a special person Cloud got really close to, if you don't move toward her relationship points wise.

On the other hand, we already know that, through the case of tifa in OTWTAS, their(cloud and tifa's) relationship continued on while they lived together with Marlene and Denzel(until geostigma), and after AC.

Aerith may have died, and everyone, especially Cloud was a devastated about it, but i'm pretty sure both relationships from both heroines meant a lot in the game.

Tifa was the only one able to help Cloud piece togethr his memories again after they fell into the lifestream, in the process they essentially learned everything about what the other was hiding emotionally. That's not a small thing.

I have always taken this as Tifa being the childhood friend he wanted to impress, but Aeris being the woman he actually wanted. Of course we know that Aeris actually loved Zack, but that Cloud reminded her of him. We know because of AC that Cloud still looks to Aeris in his heart, there was nothing to imply him and Tifa were in any relationship, but just cared for orphans together. They both meant a lot, but for different reasons.

So why have two separate scenarios with different reactions then?

Why be super embarrassed when you found out your friends may have "watched" everything. And on the flip side, why be nowhere near that embarrassed when you found out your friends were "listening". The weight of each scenario is clearly different with two different tones and two completely different end reactions by Tifa.

Because one scenario is more intimate than the other. Tifa rests her head on Cloud, they share a moment regardless of the choice made, but one is clearly more directed than the other at a person actually present and asking the question, this makes it more intimate, there is no reason to believe sex was involved.

But the woman he actually likes (since childhood) is Tifa.

No, there was nothing to say he wanted her, only to impress her as his childhood friend, as the one link he had to a reality that occurred, rather than one his mind created. Direct me to anything in the game that suggests he actually wanted Tifa in that way. The date scene is clearly canon as Aeris, not Tifa or anyone else, as these are the hardest to achieve. A 'normal' run will almost certainly see you on a date with Aeris, unless you are purposefully harsh to her and nice to Tifa.

 

[Koozek]

I'm a huge fan of VIII so I remember a lot.

Honestly if you want to try out VIII again you should do it using Refine and GF abilities. It's the method that is most popular and generally the way to play the game. You pretty much never need to draw and it actually is easy to break the game doing it.

And I'm such a sucker for the ending since you do see them kiss but it zooms out while it's happening. Dat ending music and Squall smiling moment.

Could you roughly explain that approach?

 

[Ferr986]

There's a rape scene with Cloud(optional) and pretty much the whole Honey Bee Inn section is inappropriate.

I wonder how much of that is just bad translation (that's what I see atleast). I find it hard to believe that they cut out the original Cloud and Tifa sex scene for being to extreme but left "that".

No, there was nothing to say he wanted her, only to impress her as his childhood friend, as the one link he had to a reality that occurred, rather than one his mind created. Direct me to anything in the game that suggests he actually wanted Tifa in that way. The date scene is clearly canon as Aeris, not Tifa or anyone else, as these are the hardest to achieve. A 'normal' run will almost certainly see you on a date with Aeris, unless you are purposefully harsh to her and nice to Tifa.

Well, it's been years since I last played it, but he wanted to protect Tifa as a kid. It's not too hard to believe that he had feelings for her.
Putting it that way, I could also say that the date with Aeris at the Gold Saucer is more of a friendly date and not romantic. Aeris even has to push him to go.

Even if Tifa and Cloud being canon at the end of FFVII was true it all went to shit when they made AC, basically confirmed nothing (AFAIK they slept in at least different beds, maybe different rooms) and reversed the status quo to the bullshit we were on before. There are less hints in AC about a relationship than the freaking game, and that was just setting things up. The movie happened after their relationship had had a beginning!

Didn't the tifa story before AC show her and Cloud having a stable relationship? In AC they're bad because Cloud is in dumb mode.

 

[AdanVC]

MY NIPPLES ARE TINGLING!!!!!!

This is still my fave comment reaction of the first page of this thread. Historic thread for sure.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Well, it's been years since I last played it, but he wanted to protect Tifa as a kid. It's not too hard to believe that he had feelings for her.
Putting it that way, I could also say that the date with Aeris at the Gold Saucer is more of a friendly date and not romantic. Aeris even has to push him to go.

Yeah he had feelings for her, I just don't roll with the assumption that means he was trying or wanted to sleep with her. That position is really at odds with how I receive the game, and I replay it every couple of years to make sure it holds up in general as my favorite game. I've never taken the scenes in question that way. They have a very close and special relationship, but I don't think he actually wants her in that way. I'm kind of thankful it's all ambiguous enough to be questionable if I'm wrong and that was the intent.

As for the date scene, Cloud is portrayed as the awkward teenage boy on his first date, trying to be cool. He drops his guard just enough to tag along. He doesn't resist it beyond that. Aeris knows that Cloud isn't the real Cloud as he presents himself, saying to him "I want to meet you" and such. After the ride when you answer "it's not that", watch his head shake at mach 3 so as not to give her the impression he didn't want another date.

 

[afternoon delight]

Could you roughly explain that approach?

GFs will teach you Refine abilities that turn items into spells/magic. Once you have Mug, you can steal items in battles and run- keeping the items and limited EXP. Instead of drawing ceaselessly to max out a certain spell, those abundant items you receive from everyone can be turned much more quickly into spells that you want.

Early game items can reward big certain spells that are key for early junctions- like Water, or Esuna, etc.

I've always gone the other approach- make sure my people have high Spirit to draw 9 spells each time, making it relatively painless to get a new spell from a Sleep'd or Stopped enemy. Replaying the game now as a matter of fact and really enjoying the combat mechanics.

Fuck the card game.

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

Yeah he had feelings for her, I just don't roll with the assumption that means he was trying or wanted to sleep with her. That position is really at odds with how I receive the game, and I replay it every couple of years to make sure it holds up in general as my favorite game. I've never taken the scenes in question that way. They have a very close and special relationship, but I don't think he actually wants her in that way. I'm kind of thankful it's all ambiguous enough to be questionable if I'm wrong and that was the intent.

Completely agreed. I never read into the game/story that Cloud ever wanted Tifa romantically. Nothing happened under the Highwind in my opinion, and if it did, it was just a rebound thing as Squall was still grieving for Aeris. My biggest wish for the VII Remake is that they increase Aeris' screen time.

Clearly Cloud cares for Tifa, but not in a romantic way, more in a deep friendship brother/sister family for life kind of way. Aeris is his true soul mate and she's waiting in the Lifestream for when Cloud gets there one day.

 

[Koozek]

GFs will teach you Refine abilities that turn items into spells/magic. Once you have Mug, you can steal items in battles and run- keeping the items and limited EXP. Instead of drawing ceaselessly to max out a certain spell, those abundant items you receive from everyone can be turned much more quickly into spells that you want.

Early game items can reward big certain spells that are key for early junctions- like Water, or Esuna, etc.

I've always gone the other approach- make sure my people have high Spirit to draw 9 spells each time, making it relatively painless to get a new spell from a Sleep'd or Stopped enemy. Replaying the game now as a matter of fact and really enjoying the combat mechanics.

Fuck the card game.

Aaah, I see. Thanks! I always played the game wrong back in the day. Never used Draw, used way too much G.F.s and half of my party was 40-50 levels higher than the rest. Made the final dungeon and boss a nightmare.
I really don't like the battle-system and having to do tedious, repetetive stuff like drawing 99 of any spell or, well, farming items to get spells like you said.

 

[Ferr986]

Yeah he had feelings for her, I just don't roll with the assumption that means he was trying or wanted to sleep with her. That position is really at odds with how I receive the game, and I replay it every couple of years to make sure it holds up in general as my favorite game. I've never taken the scenes in question that way. They have a very close and special relationship, but I don't think he actually wants her in that way. I'm kind of thankful it's all ambiguous enough to be questionable if I'm wrong and that was the intent.

Well, it's ambiguous for one reason, for that the game lets you choose whatever you want to be Cloud love interest. Clearly, there's hints for both of them, you as a player have to choose. Thats why there's this pseudo love triangle in the game.

Clearly Cloud cares for Tifa, but not in a romantic way, more in a deep friendship brother/sister family for life kind of way. Aeris is his true soul mate and she's waiting in the Lifestream for when Cloud gets there one day.

Eh, Aeris loved Zack. She would be with him in the Lifestream (like, well, the ending of AC). Zack it's why Aeris have an interest for Cloud to begin with.

 

[IAmRandom31]

Yeah Cloud / Tifa was more of a friendship / brother-sister type relationship. There are even lines in the script that point toward that isn't there?

Like when Cloud rushes off to save Tifa, Aeries questions his motives and their relationship and he says something along the lines of " its not that ". Various other lines like that in the story.

 

[afternoon delight]

Aaah, I see. Thanks! I always played the game wrong back in the day. Never used Draw, used way too much G.F.s and half of my party was 40-50 levels higher than the rest. Made the final dungeon and boss a nightmare.
I really don't like the battle-system and having to do tedious, repetetive stuff like drawing 99 of any spell or, well, farming items to get spells like you said.

I was lucky enough to get a primer from a friend on how certain systems work. Mainly, it's the patience required to drag out certain fights to make sure you're close to maxing spells- I enjoyed it because it gives you a chance to have everyone be ready at a moment's notice. I'm not OCD enough to reeeeally care about the 100 spell max bonuses, so I just use spells when I need them.

I guess I'd say FF8 is great if you really liked Enemy Skill stuff, because the Draw acts exactly like that in each battle, plus whatever you have stocked. You're a wrecking machine through most of the game though if you know what you're doing...

 

[Isayas]

Cloud literally joined SOLDIER because of his incompetency of saving Tifa. HE DID IT BECAUSE OF A GIRL. How does he not want Tifa again? I don't see how Aeris and Cloud are compatible tbh.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

They fucked yet they have a "brother-sister type relationship". Riiight.

 

[The Praiseworthy]

I want them to add two kissing scenes in the remake:

1- Cloud & Aerith
2- Cloud & Tifa

 

[Ferr986]

I want them to add two kissing scenes in the remake:

1- Cloud & Aerith
2- Cloud & Tifa

I hope they don't change anything about the romantic story. It was perfect they way it was, subtle. Put more emphasis on it will end up making it cheesy like in others FFs.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I want them to add two kissing scenes in the remake:

1- Cloud & Aerith
2- Cloud & Tifa

I hope they don't remove the Cloud & Yuffie kiss.

 

[John Kowalski]

3- Cloud and Sephiroth

 

[vas_a_morir]

Well that's 0% true. FFIX was announced the same day as FFX and FFXI.

The future mould for the FF series (in the form of FFX, XII and XIII) was set before FFIX was even in production. Before they even started IX, they knew it was a throwback. They knew it was one last hurrah for the old style. It was never a possible future for the series the moment they began work on IX. The plan for FFX was to eschew the traditions of FF and their plan was never to stick to tradition forever after. And FFXI was online!

Abandoning those traditions forever had nothing to do with the sales of FFIX. Its reason to exist was to be one last old school adventure.

In fact it's more surprising that FFIX existed at all, since FF7 and 8 clearly pointed toward the RPG-mould breaking trajectory of 10, 11, 12, 13, etc.

Well, regardless of whether or not they were announced the same day, you'd have to believe the sales of FFIX being relatively low plays into the decision to 'never try that again,' wouldn't you? Maybe you don't agree, but your statement that it is 0% true is 0% true. I guarantee FFIX's sales has killed any chance of getting that kind of game again while if it had sold well, we would maybe have some chance of seeing that moving forward.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

I imagine some of the changes or way things are going to be presented will cause quite a long-term stir in the near future.

Would wager a bet that it will create even more controversy then the FFXV debacle!

Nomura will feel the heat once more.

 

[SOLDIER]

I'll try and break this down to the barebone facts. This is all 100% verified stuff and not debatable, though I'm sure some will debate it regardless.

1. In the original game, Cloud and Tifa can have sex. This is an optional event if you have the required amount of affinity points toward Tifa. Masato Kato himself verified this as he wanted to create a more adult relationship in the game.

2. The above scene is verified as canon in various Ultimania books, alongside a collection of famous romantic moments from the series (Cecil and Rosa, Tidus and Yuna, Zidane and Garnet, etc)

3. Post-game they live together as an honest-to-god couple. Unfortunately, Cloud's guilt over the events prior causes a rift between them which is then temporarily mended when they adopt Denzel. Then Cloud gets Geostigma and separates from his "family", leading to the events of AC.

4. The state of their relationship post-AC is still under debate, and will probably one day be addressed once they decide to make another sequel or three (they sure as hell won't stop after the Remake). The closest hint we've gotten is in the Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII video, which takes place canonically after AC. In that video, Cloud is encouraged by Yuffie and the others to close his delivery service for the day and invite Tifa and the kids out for a date in the park. After he hangs up the phone, he remarks "That was easier than I thought.", which shows how Cloud is gradually learning to be more open with his feelings.

In short, Cloud and Tifa very obviously have romantic feelings toward one another, but there are a lot of barriers that keep them from fully committing to their relationship. It's not all Cloud's fault, as Tifa also has a lot of deep-seated regret over her actions with AVALANCHE (the Sector 7 collapse in particular). The scene in the original game isn't necessarily a "one night stand" but more of a mutual decision to put aside their regrets and physically display their love for one another in what they considered the last chance they would ever have.

It's a rocky relationship, which is also why it's my favorite romantic relationship in the entire series.

If nothing else, wait for the Remake to see how they handle this whole thing.

 

[LouisaFerre]

I imagine some of the changes or way things are going to be presented will cause quite a long-term stir in the near future.

Would wager a bet that it will create even more controversy then the FFXV debacle!

Nomura will feel the heat once more.

He's probably prepared for that. He said back in the June Famitsu interview that even some staff members were resistant to changes that were being made.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

He's probably prepared for that. He said back in the June Famitsu interview that even some staff members were resistant to changes that were being made.

I trust Nomura, he was hand picked for this job anyways by the former director of the game.

The only thing im worried about is 1.How long will this game take to make and 2. How are they going to handle the world map/Highwind.

 

[Clott]

It's the most obvious thing in the world that Cloud and Tifa get it on under the highwind, can anyone pull up the script from that part?

The last time I played it 5 years ago I paused on every txt bubble and really read at what was being suggested, and there wasn't any doubt in my mind that AC also heavily suggested that Tifa was his soulmate, and Areis was just something that came and went.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I'll try and break this down to the barebone facts. This is all 100% verified stuff and not debatable, though I'm sure some will debate it regardless.

1. In the original game, Cloud and Tifa can have sex. This is an optional event if you have the required amount of affinity points toward Tifa. Masato Kato himself verified this as he wanted to create a more adult relationship in the game.

2. The above scene is verified as canon in various Ultimania books, alongside a collection of famous romantic moments from the series (Cecil and Rosa, Tidus and Yuna, Zidane and Garnet, etc)

3. Post-game they live together as an honest-to-god couple. Unfortunately, Cloud's guilt over the events prior causes a rift between them which is then temporarily mended when they adopt Denzel. Then Cloud gets Geostigma and separates from his "family", leading to the events of AC.

4. The state of their relationship post-AC is still under debate, and will probably one day be addressed once they decide to make another sequel or three (they sure as hell won't stop after the Remake). The closest hint we've gotten is in the Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII video, which takes place canonically after AC. In that video, Cloud is encouraged by Yuffie and the others to close his delivery service for the day and invite Tifa and the kids out for a date in the park. After he hangs up the phone, he remarks "That was easier than I thought.", which shows how Cloud is gradually learning to be more open with his feelings.

In short, Cloud and Tifa very obviously have romantic feelings toward one another, but there are a lot of barriers that keep them from fully committing to their relationship. It's not all Cloud's fault, as Tifa also has a lot of deep-seated regret over her actions with AVALANCHE (the Sector 7 collapse in particular). The scene in the original game isn't necessarily a "one night stand" but more of a mutual decision to put aside their regrets and physically display their love for one another in what they considered the last chance they would ever have.

It's a rocky relationship, which is also why it's my favorite romantic relationship in the entire series.

If nothing else, wait for the Remake to see how they handle this whole thing.

Do you have links for any of these 100% verified stuff's? Because 1 I don't believe without any proof at all, and the lists doesn't get better...

 

[Via Purifico]

It's the most obvious thing in the world that Cloud and Tifa get it on under the highwind, can anyone pull up the script from that part?

The last time I played it 5 years ago I paused on every txt bubble and really read at what was being suggested, and there wasn't any doubt in my mind that AC also heavily suggested that Tifa was his soulmate, and Areis was just something that came and went.

Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuKSfF1rHg

 

[Koozek]

I imagine some of the changes or way things are going to be presented will cause quite a long-term stir in the near future.

Would wager a bet that it will create even more controversy then the FFXV debacle!

Nomura will feel the heat once more.

He's probably prepared for that. He said back in the June Famitsu interview that even some staff members were resistant to changes that were being made.

I really loved his response in this interview, he sounds confident and prepared to realize his vision:

— There’s a lot of parts that are being altered. But have there not been any opposing voices to changing things from the original?

Nomura: There certainly are some staff who put too much of a focus on the ‘VII-ness’ and are resistant to changing it. But that FFVII-ness isn’t something you can easily point to and say ‘that’s it!’ about, and it means different things for different people. I’ve got a lot of attachment to VII myself. But those “feelings” and being “trapped” by the FF of the past are two separate things. If you make up your mind, “‘FF is like this,” then you can’t make FF.

— I see. What do you think the requirements for a FF creator are, Mr. Nomura?

Nomura: I think that love for FF alone isn’t enough to make FF. Someone who isn’t satisfied with FF can make it. A creator has to be someone who wants to change FF, to surpass it. Kitase and myself, all the staff from back then rewrote FF in that way. And with this remake too, we’re naturally going into it with that same mettle. The next time we will be able to bring you info about this game will be in the winter and beyond that, but I promise that we will show you something surprising that breaks away from the concept of FF that we’ve seen so far.　

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I'll try and break this down to the barebone facts. This is all 100% verified stuff and not debatable, though I'm sure some will debate it regardless.

1. In the original game, Cloud and Tifa can have sex. This is an optional event if you have the required amount of affinity points toward Tifa. Masato Kato himself verified this as he wanted to create a more adult relationship in the game.

2. The above scene is verified as canon in various Ultimania books, alongside a collection of famous romantic moments from the series (Cecil and Rosa, Tidus and Yuna, Zidane and Garnet, etc)

3. Post-game they live together as an honest-to-god couple. Unfortunately, Cloud's guilt over the events prior causes a rift between them which is then temporarily mended when they adopt Denzel. Then Cloud gets Geostigma and separates from his "family", leading to the events of AC.

4. The state of their relationship post-AC is still under debate, and will probably one day be addressed once they decide to make another sequel or three (they sure as hell won't stop after the Remake). The closest hint we've gotten is in the Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII video, which takes place canonically after AC. In that video, Cloud is encouraged by Yuffie and the others to close his delivery service for the day and invite Tifa and the kids out for a date in the park. After he hangs up the phone, he remarks "That was easier than I thought.", which shows how Cloud is gradually learning to be more open with his feelings.

In short, Cloud and Tifa very obviously have romantic feelings toward one another, but there are a lot of barriers that keep them from fully committing to their relationship. It's not all Cloud's fault, as Tifa also has a lot of deep-seated regret over her actions with AVALANCHE (the Sector 7 collapse in particular). The scene in the original game isn't necessarily a "one night stand" but more of a mutual decision to put aside their regrets and physically display their love for one another in what they considered the last chance they would ever have.

It's a rocky relationship, which is also why it's my favorite romantic relationship in the entire series.

If nothing else, wait for the Remake to see how they handle this whole thing.

I love that, I absolutely love that. I can't get enough adult relationships in my jrpgs which, sadly, we all know they are so goddamn rare in this genre starting with the fact that this love triangle are all over 20 (way above the average age of jrpg protagonists, the more anime it is the more difficult to find protagonists over 18). It's funny how a 1997 jrpg does a better job of depicting a mature relationship than most jrpgs nowadays.

 

[Wazzy]

Scrooge I'll supply the sources after. I'm currently at work so I wanted to tackle a different post before this and since I'm short on time I'm going to slowly do this.

I'll try and break this down to the barebone facts. This is all 100% verified stuff and not debatable, though I'm sure some will debate it regardless.

1. In the original game, Cloud and Tifa can have sex. This is an optional event if you have the required amount of affinity points toward Tifa. Masato Kato himself verified this as he wanted to create a more adult relationship in the game.

2. The above scene is verified as canon in various Ultimania books, alongside a collection of famous romantic moments from the series (Cecil and Rosa, Tidus and Yuna, Zidane and Garnet, etc)

It's verified as a canon option. It's not the canon choice. You also seem to be ignoring that Cloud and Aeris's date scene IS canon and listed on the exact same page along with all the other Final Fantasy couples. The reason for this is Cloud is the only main hero to have two female romantic options.

3. Post-game they live together as an honest-to-god couple. Unfortunately, Cloud's guilt over the events prior causes a rift between them which is then temporarily mended when they adopt Denzel. Then Cloud gets Geostigma and separates from his "family", leading to the events of AC.

This is false. Nowhere is it stated they are a couple. They live together along with Barret, Marlene and Denzel unless you think there's something going on between them all. What is implied is that there could be a relationship but it's unknown if they can make it as a couple and that all stems from things not involving Denzel, Sephiroth nor Geostigma.

I'll deal with the other parts later when i have some free time but these ones were the most concerning to me since they're not stating he proper facts.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well, regardless of whether or not they were announced the same day, you'd have to believe the sales of FFIX being relatively low plays into the decision to 'never try that again,' wouldn't you? Maybe you don't agree, but your statement that it is 0% true is 0% true. I guarantee FFIX's sales has killed any chance of getting that kind of game again while if it had sold well, we would maybe have some chance of seeing that moving forward.

Yes, I see your point that sales of IX would not motivate further games like it.

But they were ideologically committed to mainline FF always "breaking the mould" and being a sexy pop anime series that abandons gameplay traditions after X and onward, so the viability of IX-like games were never on test anyway.

Every once and awhile someone says: "why doesn't FF do turn-based anymore?" or "why doesn't FF have chibi characters in classic settings anymore?" and I think they must not have heard Square's very loud PR message at the turn of the millennium that they were very consciously abandoning that forever. FFIX was the farewell project to that theme.

There could be a return to nostalgic roots someday (maybe it's inevitable that a franchise eventually does that... look at Star Wars right now), but it would take a sea change in Square's thinking about the brand. They would have to reverse a very deliberate choice to abandon those themes.

 

[Number Wang]

Do you have links for any of these 100% verified stuff's? Because 1 I don't believe without any proof at all, and the lists doesn't get better...

His proof is likely a link to Lifestream.net. A pairing echo chamber.
This link in particular.

Personally, I don't find the argument even remotely convincing. I see it as a hodgepodge of pedantic observations and specious logic.

 

[Wazzy]

His proof is likely a link to Lifestream.net. A pairing echo chamber.
This link in particular.

Personally, I don't find the argument even remotely convincing. I see it as a hodgepodge of pedantic observations and specious logic.

What I love about this over the top biased mess of a page is that they dismiss the Cloud and Aeris date scene when it's on the same goddamn page as all the other Final Fantasy couples. They also "forget" to note that the highwind scene is mentioned as having two options, not just the sex scene.

The delusion of some of these fans is crazy.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

I love that, I absolutely love that. I can't get enough adult relationships in my jrpgs which, sadly, we all know they are so goddamn rare in this genre starting with the fact that this love triangle are all over 20 (way above the average age of jrpg protagonists, the more anime it is the more difficult to find protagonists over 18). It's funny how a 1997 jrpg does a better job of depicting a mature relationship than most jrpgs nowadays.

I don't know, the whole, "I've loved you since we were children, and now we love each other" thing is really damn anime to me. That's just as anime as the "You are the first person I've ever dated... so we are destined to be soul mates!" type of "love conquers all" BS. Japanese anime, manga, movies(and drama) as well as video games are in no short supply of that kind of sappy storytelling.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

His proof is likely a link to Lifestream.net. A pairing echo chamber.
This link in particular.

Personally, I don't find the argument even remotely convincing. I see it as a hodgepodge of pedantic observations and specious logic.

That's amazing.

"Debate is over, finally we have the answer!"

*conjecture / speculation / itsfuckingnothing*

Also who even cares about sources.

You claimed 100% verified facts. You can't do that without any sources, because without them the statement is false.