BlazingDarkness
Member
What's the 7 zone method? Can you elucidate the process for me?
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Final Fantasy XII The Zodiac Age |OT| You Had One Job!
- Thread starter FlutterPuffs
- Start date
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
It's so interesting to me that back when the game firat released I cared too much about character interactions and development, or lack thereof. Whereas now I'm just glad the story is taking a backseat and that justwhatever dialog made it is solid and not too cringe-worthy.
I don't know if it's disillusionment or if my taste changed.
I don't know if it's disillusionment or if my taste changed.
Well, it should be 4 times in the corner including the time he goes there basically as you're coming up the stairs after zoning in.
Thanks, already got a pair of Genji Gloves but another one could be good. hmm I'll try to reach lvl 62 in trial mode to try to get a Zodiac Spear this way, see if it's doable but the shield seems awesome as well.
Supermanisdead
Member
Omg Penelo is so worthless, why is she here? Wish Vossler or Larsa were permanent party members instead.
YankeeDonB
Member
This bothers me way more than it should!
Was in some ways psychologically worse in the original release, because it was SO easy to track a character into a different play style/archetype on the full license board. Now, having picked Machinist for Balthier, that's just what he is, whether it's optimal or not.
Right now my biggest gripe is I feel I have to make her a monk due to backstory, but don't like that a girl w/ her slight figure is going to end up an immovable mountain of HP.
LordOfLore
Banned
Progress: Left the sunstone at the old man and Penelo left Vaan. Made Penelo a monk. When I get Basch, should I make him a bushi or red mage first?
Supermanisdead
Member
I didn't do jobs like that. My Penelo is just the 2 jobs I hate the most, white mage and machinist. She can rot.
Because Vaan is her best friend.
The whole Vaan/Penelo relationship is really in need of fleshing out. There are small bits of it at the beginning but then the plot takes over and it gets lost in the shuffle.
FlutterPuffs
Member
ClearMetal
Member
It really is a shame how much content was written for her which all ended up getting cut from the game.
That said, I made her a Shikari and got an early Gladius of a rare wolf (worgen?) in the Westersand (forgot its name) and she's wiping the floor with every enemy the party comes across on the way to the tomb of Raithwall.
YankeeDonB
Member
Ah, poor Penelo. W/ her freshman-year-of-college party fairy wings and her hockey goalie pants :-(
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I know Penelo is supposed to be the "annoying hyperactive girl" of the game a la Yuffie, Selphie, Rikku, Vanille but aside from the fact that she just feels randomly thrown into this adventure, she is so so much more bearable than them.
I think the fact that Balthier, Ashe, Basch, and Fran are much more mature than most FF characters and treat Vaan and Penelo as the annoying kids of the group helps with that.
I think the fact that Balthier, Ashe, Basch, and Fran are much more mature than most FF characters and treat Vaan and Penelo as the annoying kids of the group helps with that.
Just got Ashe, making steady progress and figured out where I'm going on all the license boards so it should be smooth sailing from now on! Am a little low on Gil though but that's what the fast forward button is for!
Edit: Also, I didn't get an answer last time, can you still steal the death sword from that mimic in the mines?
Edit: Also, I didn't get an answer last time, can you still steal the death sword from that mimic in the mines?
Spehornoob
Member
I wasn't aware of this. Do you have a link? I love reading stuff like this.
YankeeDonB
Member
Sort of. But it also highlights the absurdity of having these two know-nothing kids along for the ride. If we take the narrative and world and characters at face value, would Ashe and Basch really bring these two along? Balthier and Fran provide wings and pirate connections. But Vaan and Penelo would be better replaced by a hand-picked crew of battle-tested resistance knights.
I apologize for this since it's been done probably hundreds of times at this point, so instead of asking for job combo advice, I'll just ask for a thumbs up or thumbs down. I have very bad anxiety when I'm forced to make a decision I can't change later, so any response at all is greatly appreciated because I'd like to move forward with this game. I don't care about lore considerations, and I'm still not sure if I want to optimize my party or use all jobs, so I'll post a "what if" group for each. If you want to add any advice, it's greatly appreciated.
Optimized Party:
Vaan: Uhlan/Time Mage (or Shikari/White Mage and make Fran something else)
Balthier: Shikari/Breaker
Basch: Bushi/Knight
Fran: White Mage/Machinist
Ashe: Black Mage/Red Mage (or Knight/Time Mage)
Penelo: Black Mage/Monk
Use All Jobs Party:
Vaan: Uhlan/Time Mage
Balthier: Shikari/Breaker
Basch: Bushi/Knight
Fran: White Mage/Machinist
Ashe: Black Mage/Monk
Penelo: Red Mage/Archer
I have no idea about quickenings or espers except I've heard you're supposed to stick Famfrit on a WHM/MCH combo.
Optimized Party:
Vaan: Uhlan/Time Mage (or Shikari/White Mage and make Fran something else)
Balthier: Shikari/Breaker
Basch: Bushi/Knight
Fran: White Mage/Machinist
Ashe: Black Mage/Red Mage (or Knight/Time Mage)
Penelo: Black Mage/Monk
Use All Jobs Party:
Vaan: Uhlan/Time Mage
Balthier: Shikari/Breaker
Basch: Bushi/Knight
Fran: White Mage/Machinist
Ashe: Black Mage/Monk
Penelo: Red Mage/Archer
I have no idea about quickenings or espers except I've heard you're supposed to stick Famfrit on a WHM/MCH combo.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Eh. Vaan (I'm assuming) proves himself to be battle tested with Balthier and Fran in the sewers, as well as to Basch in Barheim. Plus, Basch kinda feels he owes him and he's already willing to help. Not really sure why they wouldn't take him. Penelo just refuses to leave him.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Embrace it.
MugiwaraCole
Member
It's really making me miss the copies of Tactics Advance I had on GBA. I love Ivalice games.
Endurance is all mental, bro. Lol
That scene where the gang leaves from Bhujerba to Raithwall's tomb is so funny in hindsight. Starts with Ashe attempting to steal Balthier's ship, thinking she's sneaky, followed by Vaan surprising her, followed by Balthier, then Basch, then Fran and Penelo. The entire group was just waiting outside the ship, waiting for their turn to walk in and let her know how not-sneaky she was.
Sumio Mondo
Member
Vaan is a damn unstoppable tank, in all honesty. He's probably a far better fighter than the rest of the team were at his age. Added on to being a good fighter, Vaan wants vengeance for his dead brother and Basch as you say feels responsible for helping Vaan as well as his obligation to Ashe. Penelo is the odd one out of the group if anything, not Vaan. She's a surprisingly good fighter though but so little back story/depth for her character when put against the rest of the group.
YankeeDonB
Member
I'd think Basch would best repay his debt by finding a safe spot for Vaan and P. to wait out the conflict, particularly given what happened to the older/better-trained Reks.
Vaan's being able to handle himself in the sewers is, for me, already a sort of suspension of disbelief (he trained on big rats I guess...). But that aside it's a much different story than heading into cursed tombs or taking on the empire head on.
I'm trying, I'm trying...
Vaan proves himself in Nalbina/Barheim. Penelo won't leave him and they are both orphans with no real home in Rabanastre. The party itself is fairly incognito and they don't really need a battalion of resistance fighters at their backs. Keep in mind the business with the shards/nethicite is known only to the upper echelons of those in power, and as someone who has had close contact with events involving them he is now in the struggle for better or worse. Vaan himself addresses this to Ashe as things go on and Penelo makes it clear she isn't going anywhere without Vaan. As Balthier tells him in the Garymscythe waterway, they are a team now. The two might be annoying kids, but they help ground the older members and provide a humanizing role to them, namely Ashe and Balthier. Not to mention, they help show that Larsa is still a kid at heart, despite his mannerisms. Their role in the game is supportive, but always present, even if they themselves aren't central heroes.
Ashe's morals are seemingly selective. She had issues with Vaan stealing in the Waterway but I notice she didn't hold herself to that standard when wanting to steal Balthier's ship. Not to mention the trust bridge she burned while attempting that which never got mentioned.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
You can't really mess up, but if you are that nervous go for the all jobs one. Why? To calm your stress down. FFXII was designed to be finished with 6 jobs only. Imagine with 12. You can't mess up at all then.
And stick Hashmal on Bushi/Knight for that sweet, sweet Curaja.
That bothers you, but the magic flinging, monsters, and dark gods doesn't?
ClearMetal
Member
Sadly not, so I admit it's mostly hearsay. From what I understand, Watanabe said this in an interview in the XII Ultimania Omega, but I haven't been able to find any translations or scans to confirm it.
YankeeDonB
Member
But that's just the thing -- when I take the narrative seriously, I don't believe Vaan WOULD have proven himself in any serious battle situation given his callow youthfulness. More-so for Penelo. And even accepting the FF convention of a very small crew of heroes effecting disproportionately large change, I can't quite accept that 3 or 4 hand-picked knights wouldn't have been a realistic and very beneficial trade-in for street urchins 1 and 2. If this were a movie/novel, Vaan and Penelo would play the narrative role you suggest, but wouldn't be front and center for every armed conflict. It's just typical FF ludo-narrative dissonance, but the style in which XII is told makes it stand out for me.
Very much so. The magic flinging, monsters, and dark gods are all part of a basically narratively coherent fantasy world. A fifteen year-old waif being an incredibly durable monk warrior is not.
ClearMetal
Member
Started up FFTA2 this afternoon and it's really magical. The art direction of the Ivalice games is just so good. The cozy inns, the green hills, the dusty desserts and even the rainy swamps are still a pleasure to visit. It almost feels like you're on vacation.
Lights and Waves
Member
Night Hunter, you're in the right here. Anyone saying otherwise is lowkey biased. There's a reason FFXII has a reputation for having a lackluster story and a party that has nothing to do with each other.
They could have gone a long way with character development if they had some conversations take place as the characters are walking, like they do in FFXV.
show me your skeleton
Member
am i being weird or was there a screen in the original that had 'trophies' that were unlocked as you achieved things, with those trophies being little SD characters?
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I've got Vaan rocking the Ashura Ninja Sword right now, it's so good. Shikari was definitely the way forwards. Super fast meter build up, high hit count and the damage he's doing is solid too. Still haven't even chosen a second job for him either.
MugiwaraCole
Member
No suspension of disbelief is needed for Vaan, though. They take him to Bhujerba to save Penelo, his friend (again, after he'd already proved capable of defending himself to the group). Things escalate from there to a point where it's less a decision and more that they're abducted by the empire and fight a judge (a fight he also survives). Him being a talented fighter isn't exactly hard to believe, even if he hasn't trained much (and who knows if he's only fought rats, there are a ton of fiends in the sewers).
Penelo's the only question mark, but since she's already proven she's not gonna just sit somewhere and wait for Vaan to come home, *shrug*
I agree up until the last point. At the core, the characters are still caricatures, as I put it, that are simply worded well. To me, good writing means depth of character that is fleshed out properly (and I don't mean spelling out everything, I mean giving enough characterization to each character, along with leaving some mysteries to grasp).
It is my belief that, despite the rough presentation, Final Fantasy XV actually has a good story underneath. The presentation is rough, the game had to be forced out, so we get something that is only a partial representation of the vision. This is actually much like Final Fantasy XII. I would actually say that they are comparably equal games in quality, they just have different positives and negatives, and one person might like one quality more than the other.
For example, the hidden lore of Final Fantasy XV's world I find more compelling than almost anything in Final Fantasy XII, despite the latter's better writing quality and presentation. The mystery of Ifrit, told subtly via the dungeon and other subtle cues, in my opinion, gives more depth than what I have witnessed in Final Fantasy XII.
But I'm not really trying to say XV is better. XII has a better developed world, with more of it represented in front of you, and the writing quality is generally higher. However, no questions asked, Adryn is many times a better villain than anything in XII.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
FFXV is the last game I'd bring up for character development. Or as a better story than FFXII.
It seems you've established a canon where Vaan -shouldn't- be able to do what he does when the game says that he can and did help fight against the various obstacles the party encounters. For you it comes down to whether or not you are willing to accept what the game is showing you on screen, or whether your belief that he should only be able to fit into the narrative a certain way proves insurmountable. A note: most people in the game treat the orphans as annoying kids, but the other party members come to recognize they can stand among them as they journey forward. This is only touched upon a couple times granted, and there could have been more expansion upon that subplot. Or rather it could have been a proper subplot, but as it exists we only get snippets, so I do understand where you are coming from. The biggest showings are with
Migelo after you rescue Penelo, and Balthier much later in the game
I think honestly, sometimes we have to put hyperbole aside, and admit, yes, Final Fantasy XV has good qualities, and it does things that XII doesn't. The opposite is also true. But I get tired of the hyperbole of the Internet.
I have already laid some reasoning above. But one other mention that could be compared is that, with Final Fantasy XV, we have a tight-knit group of guys whose characteristics are well-carved. You know how they act day-to-day, what their likes and dislikes are beside the plot. Even if there isn't always a clear character development in game, it happens in the entire story. I would also argue that Ignis' development is pretty mature, and comparable to anything in XII. I also think it's an interesting topic that doesn't even really get touched upon in video games in general.
Also, the fact that Final Fantasy XV's characters talk a lot brings out the fact that these small touches are somewhat missing from XII, despite the latter game having other stronger qualities.
So yes, I can emphatically say that XV does some things good with its characters.
The off-hand comments and banter from XV really would have helped the main party of XII - which is missing cutscenes throughout the long trek of Mountain Bur-Omicase to Archades - and could have filled in those gaps a little nicer. There's little touches here and there that are nice. Penelo and Fran seem to have a little bit of a friendship since they speak together while Vaan has admiration for both Balthier and Basch. He relates to Ashe as they both have lost people dear to them. Ashe is the main character so she get's decent conversations with everyone. I really do like the foundation and I think it is enough to still be interesting but it could have used more interaction padding.
All that being said, I'm quite fond of the crew of circumstance that makes up XII.
All that being said, I'm quite fond of the crew of circumstance that makes up XII.
Yep, I generally like them for the most part. And it probably holds true that it would have been impossible for them to develop spontaneous banter like that back then (they already had to crunch the recordings enough to fit them on the disc), it's something that, if done correctly, could have helped improve the believability of the characters, and FF XII would have benefited.
That being said, they are portrayed well for what they have shown. I have a few minor complaints, but they are generally a likable bunch. I'm actually pretty excited to jump back in. It's interesting, because there are Final Fantasy games that I have really connected with and enjoyed, while others I just dropped cold after a while for one reason or another. FF XII definitely falls in the former category.
I'm not sure I can agree with your description of character depth. A character can have a lot of development and characterization, but that doesn't necessarily give them depth. There are many instances in fiction whether movies or written where a character who does not have much screen time or has not yet had a lot of screen time displays much depth of character. Take for a local example, Aranea in XV. We only encounter her a few times throughout the narrative, but her demeanor, motivations, and ideals are shown in those few interactions, to say nothing of her ability. We see multiple sides to her, and even though we only see her sparsely she has become my favorite character in XV. For me, the same is true of much of the supporting cast in XII and that extends to the main party. I want more interactions than we got, but I think what is there has fleshed out the cast well and shown us multiple facets of each of our party. Except for Penelo, unfortunately.I agree up until the last point. At the core, the characters are still caricatures, as I put it, that are simply worded well. To me, good writing means depth of character that is fleshed out properly (and I don't mean spelling out everything, I mean giving enough characterization to each character, along with leaving some mysteries to grasp).
It is my belief that, despite the rough presentation, Final Fantasy XV actually has a good story underneath. The presentation is rough, the game had to be forced out, so we get something that is only a partial representation of the vision. This is actually much like Final Fantasy XII. I would actually say that they are comparably equal games in quality, they just have different positives and negatives, and one person might like one quality more than the other.
For example, the hidden lore of Final Fantasy XV's world I find more compelling than almost anything in Final Fantasy XII, despite the latter's better writing quality and presentation. The mystery of Ifrit, told subtly via the dungeon and other subtle cues, in my opinion, gives more depth than what I have witnessed in Final Fantasy XII.
But I'm not really trying to say XV is better. XII has a better developed world, with more of it represented in front of you, and the writing quality is generally higher. However, no questions asked, Adryn is many times a better villain than anything in XII.
I will say, I like XV a lot as well for what it is, as I do XII. I also like XIII and its sequels, and pretty much every FF. Ifrit's dealings were interesting in XV, but I think Bahamut really stole the show for me lore wise. The
Occuria
I think we just look for different things, probably. I personally thought Aranea was weak in XV, and wanted more development for her. I also think the writing for her was pretty poor in Episode Prompto, being written as dispenser of one-liners. In some way, she reminded me of Lightning.
But my comment about depth of character doesn't mean to exclude characters that were shown only briefly. It is hard to pull that off and still have depth, I will admit. But when talking about main characters that we see for 40+ hours, I think it's important to see more details about their lives and personality. I know it is a different format, but for example, if we were to put these characters in novel form, it wouldn't fly to just have them talking only of the plot. They would definitely be considered flat, somewhat depthless characters if they didn't have some behaviors that we could see and relate to outside of the plot.
LordOfLore
Banned
What was the easy leveling trick when you're just Vaan? Have like 3K gil and am eager to get a few levels(and a mage masher, assassin's dagger or gladius)before heading the warehouse.
Seems we do. There is room for improvement in the presentation of both games' casts in differing ways, I think we are in agreement there.
Edit: in novel form, the structures of both XII and XV, and any FF or RPG, would be dramatically different by necessity, so I don't think that's a good analogy to make.
a very cute dog
Member
So there's four available on the board but only three can be unlocked, and getting one quickening will unlock the same space on another board.
Is there any reason to hold off until I get that second job, then? For Vaan I was thinking the recommended Shikari/Foebreaker. Sorry, I'm not sure why this is so hard to wrap my head around.
edit: wait, is that three available unlocks for each board or across both boards? *bangs head against wall*