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[DigitalDevil]

after beating the chapter 11 boss (and about 10 of the hunts) is it generally seen as better to go ahead and leave chapter 11 now, or stay and do more hunts / get the growth egg?

 

[mr_nothin]

(slightly large post)

I also again bring up this post:

*MAPS*

Outside of FFXI & FFXII (which still had some similar linear levels), FFXIII follows the same design as the rest of the series, so the complaints about it's linearity is confusing.

And how old are those games? Years....decades
What's the most recent FF? FFXII
How linear was that game? Not very linear

It's linear as fuck, it's short as fuck and it uses all of this to its advantage. FF13's idea is totally novel, but either the designers ran out of time to develop it or they lacked the vision to carry it out like the games mentioned above.

Suffice to say, FF13 feels like an incomplete game, far more so than FF12 ever did.

Do you think we'll get an FF13: International?

FFXIII really does just feel like they ran out of time before they could flesh it out. It feels content incomplete but the story turned out exactly how they wanted it to.

FFXII feels content complete but it also feels like they werent able to flesh out the story as much as they wanted. I'd rather have a content complete game than a game but that's just me.

 

[jiggle]

after beating the chapter 11 boss (and about 10 of the hunts) is it generally seen as better to go ahead and leave chapter 11 now, or stay and do more hunts / get the growth egg?

did u unlock all the teleport c'ieths on the way?
it's a major bitch to backtrack without them

growth egg is worth getting though, but it's quite a walk to the actual fight

 

[ZephyrFate]

Hm, maybe you are right. Shin Megami Nocturne is my fave RPG ever (after FFVII I guess) and it had no towns too. However it had a mainworld and it didn't feel as linear as FFXIII. I don't know...it's not that FFXIII is a very bad game...it's just...boring...and somehow...lifeless? I don't know. Even chapter 11 is kinda boring, just running from point A to B to C to A.

SMT: Nocturne had, at least, four towns. They just had random encounters INSIDE of them.

 

[Fun Factor]

But that's all there is in FF13. In other games, they're not open world like Grand Theft Auto, but they still allow a middle-ground where the player feels like they're in control.

For example, you cite FF6, but in FF6 you can go all the way back to Narshe after getting the airship to recruit Mog, or buy exclusive crap at the auction house, or even get some hidden crap. The second half of the game is arguably more non-linear than FF12 as the story sections are thin, and once you gain the airship, you can go on a journey to gain back your full party (including hidden characters) or take on secret dungeons and get secret shit.

And that's just FF6.

You are lacking the insight to understand why this a big deal for some people. No one says other FF's aren't linear, but there's more to them than doing simplistic, mindless dungeons and offering little to no exploration.

You're arguing the pacing of the exploration, being able to go back when you want & where you want. I'm not disagreeing with that (Where you can & can't go in FFXIII are all dictated by the story).
I'm disagreeing with the levels designed to be any more linear than previously before. Like that that pic of FF6 you posted, how is it so radically different from Palamecia Airship map?
Linear closed off sections with a few branching paths that lead to dead ends or around back the same way.

 

[dramatis]

I'm regretting my username choice now. It was selected more out of my blind hype. After the awesomeness of FFXII I had really high hopes....

The dungeon designs suck, the missions are boring because of how they were set up, fight, fight, fight, cutscene, fight, fight, fight, rinse and repeat for 60 hours that's all this game is. I have absolutely no motivation to do anything after defeating the final boss because other then pointless throphies, which don't mean crap to me, there is no point to it. Absolutely crappy post game....

Fun battle system until the end when the lack of control makes batttles harder then they should be.

This game could have been something special had it not been for certain decisions.

I...am going to give you a hug.

Spoiler

But that's because I need a hug for the disappointment I have with this game too. /hug

 

[DigitalDevil]

did u unlock all the teleport c'ieths on the way?
it's a major bitch to backtrack without them

growth egg is worth getting though, but it's quite a walk to the actual fight

yeah. I'd have to walk back to the entrance of

Spoiler

oerba

, but then I could go right back to the steppe. Is it feasible to do right now? Or does it require a ridiculous amount of grinding now, but not as much later?

 

[Mandoric]

I'm regretting my username choice now. It was selected more out of my blind hype. After the awesomeness of FFXII I had really high hopes....

The explicit aim of FF post-merger is to push boundaries and be experimental. If you loved offline FF(x) you will probably hate offline FF(x+1), and vice-versa.

The online games are similarly geared as antitheses, but to the competition rather than to the previous entry. In setting and design they're kept as the ones which do follow the old cues, and probably the most appealing to "series" fans who can get over the MMO playstyle.

 

[ZephyrFate]

:bow

GINZA

Ginza was a son of a bitch the first time entering it, but I'm always preferential to Ikebukuro, just because of the shopping mall dereliction and the GIANT TOWER in the middle of it.

 

[User 10639]

FFXIII really does just feel like they ran out of time before they could flesh it out. It feels content incomplete but the story turned out exactly how they wanted it to.

FFXII feels content complete but it also feels like they werent able to flesh out the story as much as they wanted. I'd rather have a content complete game than a game but that's just me.

No... FFXIII was pretty clearly designed from the ground up as a very, very linear game. They didn't just forget to add more open levels or minigames or sidequests. And FFXII has an incomplete story because the lead writer had a falling out with Square in the middle of the production, I think.

 

[jiggle]

yeah. I'd have to walk back to the entrance of

Spoiler

oerba

, but then I could go right back to the steppe. Is it feasible to do right now? Or does it require a ridiculous amount of grinding now, but not as much later?

growth egg fight is quite difficult even if u cap ur main 3 jobs in the crystarium stage that was just unlocked

doable though
and way worth it

 

[sinny]

Are we talking about how great SMT:Nocturne is ?



Because it is.

 

[Papercuts]

Got to the end of chapter 11, after around 15 minutes of fighting and ALMOST getting the boss on my first try, it just took too long and I had to leave for work. Damn.

However, even though I didn't actually beat it yet, I atleast saw most of the fight. What was really giving people so much trouble? The boss in 9 was so much harder to me, this one isn't too bad, it's just annoying as fuck with the move that removes buffs and debuffs along with the random debuff hell your party faces.

 

[Kagari]

I am very upset that they are releasing a revised version of the OST. MOST UPSET.

 

[Kai Dracon]

No... FFXIII was pretty clearly designed from the ground up as a very, very linear game. They didn't just forget to add more open levels or minigames or sidequests. And FFXII has an incomplete story because the lead writer had a falling out with Square in the middle of the production, I think.

The only problem with their decision is that the formula they used is inherently thin, shallow, and vapid. And I actually kinda like FFXIII. But only so far; I can't suppress an empty feeling the game inspires. It just gives a sensation of "all this for so little". So much art, so many cut scenes, so many environments, so much design work, so much work put into the battle system and yet... it amounts to running down corridors for 60 hours with a rest stop in a huge open area that somehow comes off as far less interesting than it should be by that point.

Maybe the crucial thing is that I cannot see myself ever replaying the game. I've found replay value in every single FF game, with almost one prior exception: FFX. Which is suspicious since FFXIII is basically FFX-3. The problem is that the "math" in the gameplay is just too thin. In every other game, even FFX to a degree, one feels that they can do and try new things when playing again. But FFXIII strangles its own soul to death with THIRTY HOURS of utterly linear and scripted everything - exploration, pathfinding, decision making, and even character growth and customization. That's what it comes down to: until you get to Gran Pulse, this game is horribly soulless and empty underneath its pretty exterior.

 

[Magnus]

The Phoenix Cave and Kefka's Tower, with mandatory multi-party progression and multiple paths shit on anything in recent FF dungeon design. The entire second half of the game is a vast non-linear experiment that manages to tie in wonderfully with a story about rebuilding your party after a world-ending catastrophe that no FF has really attempted since. And even if some of VI's dungeons were one-path wonders early on, there's a level of non-linearity present outside of those dungeons as early as 3 hours into the game that XIII doesn't achieve until Chapter 11.

Any argument that VI was overall even remotely as linear as XIII will explode into flame and crumble into a thousand pieces. Don't even try. :lol

(Where you can & can't go in FFXIII are all dictated by the story).

I'd like to argue that it's a poor story for a game when the story dictates that you can't have freedom in a role-playing game throughout 90% of the game. This, in a genre whose hallmark is world-building and open-ended exploration. The story should serve the game and not the other way around, otherwise it feels like you're playing an interactive film instead of a video game.

I'm a little tipsy. I hope that makes sense.

The only problem with their decision is that the formula they used is inherently thin, shallow, and vapid. And I actually kinda like FFXIII. But only so far; I can't suppress an empty feeling the game inspires. It just gives a sensation of "all this for so little". So much art, so many cut scenes, so many environments, so much design work, so much work put into the battle system and yet... it amounts to running down corridors for 60 hours with a rest stop in a huge open area that somehow comes off as far less interesting than it should be by that point.

Maybe the crucial thing is that I cannot see myself ever replaying the game. I've found replay value in every single FF game, with almost one prior exception: FFX. Which is suspicious since FFXIII is basically FFX-3. The problem is that the "math" in the gameplay is just too thin. In every other game, even FFX to a degree, one feels that they can do and try new things when playing again. But FFXIII strangles its own soul to death with THIRTY HOURS of utterly linear and scripted everything - exploration, pathfinding, decision making, and even character growth and customization. That's what it comes down to: until you get to Gran Pulse, this game is horribly soulless and empty underneath its pretty exterior.

Marry me

 

[Diablos]

I am very upset that they are releasing a revised version of the OST. MOST UPSET.

Huh? They are?

Also, looks like a lot of people are giving up after Chapter 10-11?

I'm on Ch. 10, just beat

Spoiler

Cid Raines

. I was kinda turned off by the amount of battles afterwards since I had to level up Sazh for Cure among other things for other chars. I got tired of battles for the day and shut it off. But I'm still loving this game and am really surprised by how many people are just giving up.

 

[badcrumble]

That's what it comes down to. Without some form of new game+, I'll never replay this.

 

[User 10639]

The only problem with their decision is that the formula they used is inherently thin, shallow, and vapid. And I actually kinda like FFXIII. But only so far; I can't suppress an empty feeling the game inspires. It just gives a sensation of "all this for so little". So much art, so many cut scenes, so many environments, so much design work, so much work put into the battle system and yet... it amounts to running down corridors for 60 hours with a rest stop in a huge open area that somehow comes off as far less interesting than it should be by that point.

Maybe the crucial thing is that I cannot see myself ever replaying the game. I've found replay value in every single FF game, with almost one prior exception: FFX. Which is suspicious since FFXIII is basically FFX-3. The problem is that the "math" in the gameplay is just too thin. In every other game, even FFX to a degree, one feels that they can do and try new things when playing again. But FFXIII strangles its own soul to death with THIRTY HOURS of utterly linear and scripted everything - exploration, pathfinding, decision making, and even character growth and customization. That's what it comes down to: until you get to Gran Pulse, this game is horribly soulless and empty underneath its pretty exterior.

I can agree with much of what you're saying, although I myself find very little replay value in most RPGs. It's just too exhausting for me to go through it all again, and there's rarely enough variation the second time 'round to justify another 60+ hours of play.

 

[Kagari]

Huh? They are?

Also, looks like a lot of people are giving up after Chapter 10-11?

I'm on Ch. 10, just beat

Spoiler

Cid Raines

. I was kinda turned off by the amount of battles afterwards since I had to level up Sazh for Cure among other things for other chars. I got tired of battles for the day and shut it off. But I'm still loving this game and am really surprised by how many people are just giving up.

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/04/02/ffxiii_soundtrack_plus/

 

[Diablos]

I don't really find FFXIII to be so linear that it's unplayable for a second time...

If the first 25-30 hours turn you off, keep your saves for Chapters 10/11 and replay it that way.

Sometimes the amount of battles can be really annoying, but honestly, there have been times in every single Final Fantasy where I was getting really fed up with battles and XIII is no exception. I still love the battle system, despite linear growth... although, choosing how to develop your characters after you-know-when does require you really think about how you want to flesh out your party.

It's really no different than FFX, there's just less towns and no sidequests/games... not like I miss Blitzball or anything

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/04/02/ffxiii_soundtrack_plus/

Interesting. They did this for IX as well. I don't see what the big deal is

 

[Kai Dracon]

The thing about rpgs is that once you know what to do, the second time is RARELY ever 60 hours ever again. Consider this, it took me 75 hours to beat FF12 the first time. When I replayed it before FF13, I beat it in 29.

If I skipped cutscenes I would have hit the 20 hour mark.

Next time I replay FF12 I'm aiming for 15-20 hours.

Also, all RPGs are not created equal. The "classic" FFs, 8 and 16-bit, can be played through in a weekend. Some other contemporary games that don't focus on the magical "50 hour mark" for their first playthrough can take less time to replay than a typical action-adventure game.

Then there's the games that fuse strategy game elements in such as having a semi SRPG battle or character growth system. Such games are very inviting for replays to experiment with new builds.

I don't really find FFXIII to be so linear that it's unplayable for a second time...

If the first 25-30 hours turn you off, keep your saves for Chapters 10/11 and replay it that way.

But there's the rub. Just replaying a single open area to grind CP is pointless in the big picture.

In fact, there's where FFXIII falls down - the fact that you don't return to previous areas. In a typical RPG like this, a significant aspect that makes the world feel whole and alive is powering up your party with experience and interesting builds, and freely exploring the world. Including earlier areas that are now no challenge in the direct sense, but invite you to find things to play around with - such as farming drops, etc.

In FFXIII the first two thirds of the game feel disposable. Run through once then never see them again. Even FFX is not this bad. Any sensible design would have allowed you to return to older areas or even placed some of the hunting marks back there.

 

[Big Papa Husker]

Well... I just beat the game.

Spoiler

I had little trouble beating down Barthandalus(sp?) and Orphan. Other than the one time when Orphan cast Death on me, I completely wiped the floor with them. I just ended up using Evened Odds until I Hope had doled out all the buffs, then flipped to Relentless Assault to get the chain up then flipped to Aggressive. I was laughing when Fang was dealing 99k per hit. I really didn't grind at all, but just maxed each characters 3 jobs.

Anyway.... what did you guys think about the ending. I was bummed that Fang and Vanille both turned to crystal.

 

[User 10639]

Then there's the games that fuse strategy game elements in such as having a semi SRPG battle or character growth system. Such games are very inviting for replays to experiment with new builds.

Infusing elements from other genres is a great idea, because honestly the battle systems are what keep me away from playing most RPGs a second time. They're often too simplistic to sustain whatever amount of time they take to finish in the first place, so another go 'round is less than appealing to me. So whenever I replay an RPG, which is pretty rare, it's usually an SRPG or a hybrid.

The thing about rpgs is that once you know what to do, the second time is RARELY ever 60 hours ever again. Consider this, it took me 75 hours to beat FF12 the first time. When I replayed it before FF13, I beat it in 29.

If I skipped cutscenes I would have hit the 20 hour mark.

Next time I replay FF12 I'm aiming for 15-20 hours.

I still have no desire to do that, though... took me about 80-90 hours to do all of the hunts (or most? I actually don't remember) in FF12 before finishing the game proper, by which point I was excessively tired of a battle system I wasn't terribly fond of in the first place. Also, I'm not a speedrunner. It's against my nature. I'm the kind of gamer who takes 25 hours to finish MGS3 (cutscenes and codec notwithstanding.)

 

[Kagari]

I don't really find FFXIII to be so linear that it's unplayable for a second time...

If the first 25-30 hours turn you off, keep your saves for Chapters 10/11 and replay it that way.

Sometimes the amount of battles can be really annoying, but honestly, there have been times in every single Final Fantasy where I was getting really fed up with battles and XIII is no exception. I still love the battle system, despite linear growth... although, choosing how to develop your characters after you-know-when does require you really think about how you want to flesh out your party.

It's really no different than FFX, there's just less towns and no sidequests/games... not like I miss Blitzball or anything


Interesting. They did this for IX as well. I don't see what the big deal is

As long as they don't release a limited edition for it...

 

[grumble]

This game is really similar to FFX, frankly. Both were really linear games with a big open space near the end. FFX had token towns, but not much happened in them. Funny how FFX is so liked but FFXIII is so mixed.

 

[luxarific]

11 weapons left to get Treasure Hunter. It's definitely a slog but I'm almost there.

Then I'm gonna sell it.

What do you guys think the chances are for DLC?

 

[Pooya]

11 weapons left to get Treasure Hunter. It's definitely a slog but I'm almost there.

Then I'm gonna sell it.

What do you guys think the chances are for DLC?

I don't think there is going to be any, the game is out for about 4 months now, if there was any DLC it was out by now for Japan at least.

 

[Kagari]

11 weapons left to get Treasure Hunter. It's definitely a slog but I'm almost there.

Then I'm gonna sell it.

What do you guys think the chances are for DLC?

Next to nothing right now. Maybe some unlock for Versus XIII if you have a PS3 save or something.

 

[hateradio]

As long as they don't release a limited edition for it...

I bet it would only have the English Chocobo theme and "My Hands," so it wouldn't be deserving of a LE.

 

[Pooya]

I bet it would only have the English Chocobo theme and "My Hands," so it wouldn't be deserving of a LE.

they changed Serah's theme too.

 

[Kagari]

I bet it would only have the English Chocobo theme and "My Hands," so it wouldn't be deserving of a LE.

Probably not worth the $30 then.

 

[badcrumble]

Next to nothing right now. Maybe some unlock for Versus XIII if you have a PS3 save or something.

Yeah, one can dream, but it'd only really make sense for Square-Enix to announce there'd be DLC before release (or very quickly after release) in order to prevent resales. Maybe they'll do some kind of International version with DLC/patch for the NA/EU versions of the game... but I kind of doubt it.

 

[Magnus]

This game is really similar to FFX, frankly. Both were really linear games with a big open space near the end. FFX had token towns, but not much happened in them. Funny how FFX is so liked but FFXIII is so mixed.

Man, it's been spelled out so many times in the thread. The inclusion of Blitzball all game long alone is enough to mix things up, but there was a great deal else going on.

 

[ZephyrFate]

FFX had nothing aside from its main quest that was even mildly interesting.

 

[Cep]

Infusing elements from other genres is a great idea, because honestly the battle systems are what keep me away from playing most RPGs a second time. They're often too simplistic to sustain whatever amount of time they take to finish in the first place, so another go 'round is less than appealing to me. So whenever I replay an RPG, which is pretty rare, it's usually an SRPG or a hybrid.)

Yeah, this is the reason why I only really like the games with the extensive job systems(V, X-2, XII:I).

Replaying offers extremely different experiences.

 

[Shadow780]

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/04/02/ffxiii_soundtrack_plus/

woah....well it's only $30.

 

[Kagari]

woah....well it's only $30.

Yes, but I already own the OST, I don't need two copies ><

 

[ZephyrFate]

At least it had something beyond its main quest and grinding.

Fixing something that's admittedly flawed with, well...nothing in return is not an improvement in any sense of the word.

XIII at least has Hunts, which make it infinitely more interesting than X.

 

[Magnus]

FFX had nothing aside from its main quest that was even mildly interesting.

Ultimate Weapon sidequests, Blitzball, Optional Fayth Challenges (Remiem, Baaj, Lost Cavern), the desert cactaur village thing, incentive to revisit and experience a changed world before the finale in the temples and towns, the Monster Arena in the Calm Lands, the Omega Ruins, building Kimahri's blue mage skills, the Al Bhed language; nah nothing mildly interesting.

X's world was alive and kicking.

 

[FateBreaker]

You mean like Sin destroying Kilika?

Or Sin invading Luca? Wakka getting past the death of his brother so he doesn't feel like a total failure of a human being to dedicate himself to being a Guardian?

Or how about in Guadosalam when Seymour proposes to Yuna and Yuna finds the sphere made by Seymour's now dead father?

I'm not getting your point. What constitutes as "something happening" in a town? It's the same thing that happened in the past 9 entries.

I don't mean to be a dick, but some of that stuff should be spoilered.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Yeah, this is the reason why I only really like the games with the extensive job systems(V, X-2, XII:I).

Replaying offers extremely different experiences.

Especially with X-2.

The combination of new game plus and finding new dress spheres I never knew about on my second playthrough really made it more interesting.

I still haven't gotten Mascot.

Fuck, I really wanna replay X-2 now.

 

[Magnus]

Oh shit, FFX-2 had New Game +?

Damn! :lol How did I not remember that. Gotta hit that again. It's been 7 (!) years.

Himmy: For sure. I remember Kimahri and Lulu's being retarded pains in the ass. I swore never to do that bullshit lightning dodging crap ever again.

 

[Magnus]

I have FFXII: International sitting right here, and not enough knowledge of Japanese to know wtf is going on in it.

Gotta play our version again to refamiliarize myself with it.

 

[badcrumble]

Yes, it did. You kept your dress spheres and items and accessories and iirc levels too.

Game owns. Last FF I enjoyed on an honest to goodness level that wasn't a remake. Certainly my FF swan song.

Nope, not your levels - which is what was best about it, because although you were very powerful you didn't feel stupidly powerful. Just your dress spheres/items/accessories and all learned abilities - it's probably my favorite treatment of new game+ precisely because it resets your levels.

I'd love to see FFX given a similar sort of new game+ in a future remake - keep your equipment and upgrades to your aeons, keep the sphere grid the way you customized it (including unlocks), but start you off at zero again. If you'd replaced every stat node with +4 nodes, you'd notice a difference in a jiffy.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Ultimate Weapon sidequests, Blitzball, Optional Fayth Challenges (Remiem, Baaj, Lost Cavern), the desert cactaur village thing, incentive to revisit and experience a changed world before the finale in the temples and towns, the Monster Arena in the Calm Lands, the Omega Ruins, building Kimahri's blue mage skills, the Al Bhed language; nah nothing mildly interesting.

X's world was alive and kicking.

I said stuff that was interesting. X-2 had fun minigames, and actually made me wnat to explore all of this.

The battle system also put me to sleep, thank god FFXIII is a step-up in every aspect.

 

[Magnus]

We're looking for such utterly different things in these games I guess. FF has a reputation for providing the world and the things X did, and XIII didn't, so I'm confused, but I'll leave it there. This won't go anywhere.

 

[Braz the Mad]

I'm sure this has been discussed but you know, tldnt. I didnt' like the fact that while there were some touuuuuuuugh fights later in the game, there was never one where you won and you were like HOLY CRAP I AM WINRAR and then there was some kind of closure or anything. Like, in 7, the weapons plagued you through a large part of the game. But in XIII it was just like oh wow look TWO of those hard things I fought earlier, or oh ok so it casts ultima now also. Great. Basically, I wish there was more of a sense of accomplishment and closure with beating the tough endgame baddies.

 

[FateBreaker]

For a 9 year old game?.

I know it's old, but I would still do it in consideration of lurkers who perhaps are new to FF and never played it and, after FFXIII, are now.

 

[Magnus]

I'm sure this has been discussed but you know, tldnt. I didnt' like the fact that while there were some touuuuuuuugh fights later in the game, there was never one where you won and you were like HOLY CRAP I AM WINRAR and then there was some kind of closure or anything. Like, in 7, the weapons plagued you through a large part of the game. But in XIII it was just like oh wow look TWO of those hard things I fought earlier, or oh ok so it casts ultima now also. Great. Basically, I wish there was more of a sense of accomplishment and closure with beating the tough endgame baddies.

I screamed a solid "fuck yeah, dowwwwwwn bitch!" :lol for a couple of the chapter-ending bosses, but I mean, I'm known to get a little worked up no matter the game. I can freak out over a round of Tetris.

All of the final boss encounters in this game did not elicit such a response though. I remember thinking, "wow...so that's it" and relief that the tunnel was over. Just that fucking death spell. I was happy to dodge that, that's it.

I think I know what you mean though. Very few of the bosses managed to have any gravity. So many in XIII were nameless beasts or mechs that had no bearing on the story at all. The few that tied into the story were poorly developed and built up

Spoiler

Like Cid, whose screen time prior to Chapter 10 was pretty much eclipsed by the length of the pre-fight speech itself

I mean, even the fact that you were fighting Sinspawn beasts in FFX meant something. They were a part of Sin. It tied into the larger mythology of the universe. What was that yellow pterodactyl mech shit that attacked you in XIII on

Spoiler

Paramecia, when the party's all reunited?

Who remembers, who cares? Too many encounters like that, for sure. No gravitas.

Nothing save one character came close to a Judge fight in XII, a JENOVA encounter in VII, a sorceress battle in VIII, a Black Waltz boss in IX, a Goddess in VI, Gilgamesh in V...

Spoiler

and Barthandelus was it -- well, I guess Dahaka was alright too. It felt neat to combat a Fal'cie. And there was some decent animosity built up between it and the party on the way up that awful fucking tower.