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[BocoDragon]

There's a huge disconnect between the people who want to throw this game under the bus and the people who want to enjoy it. I won't be so crude as to separate people's responses into "haters" and "apologists" but goddamn the "hat" you wear when you come into a game completely shapes your experience... that's all I have to say.

 

[Magnus]

Man, I wanted to enjoy it. I ultimately found myself entertained by a lot of the battles, and able to overlook what I feel are glaring, gaping flaws in the system to appreciate how exciting the scene was.

I went so far out of my way to get it early (around March 2 or something). What FF fan waiting four years for this wouldn't be chomping at the bit? I'm such an FF fanboy it's ridiculous.

I guess by "the hat I came wearing into this", you could say it was my super-high expectations. I wish I had lowered them in advance.

 

[hateradio]

I'm personally indifferent about the game, I didn't hate it and I didn't think it was good either.

It had potential, that's all I can say.

Pfft.. hauntingly bad? Some might call that jazz flute. That's baby-making music right there.

More like artsy Eurotrash music, "I'm so anti-hip and cool, look at me listen to this flute from my last trip to Brazil, i mean Pluse" but yes it is haunting, it's now playing in my head ...and the last time I physically listened to it was probably over three weeks ago make it stop! It's torture.

 

[Korey]

Man I just can't bring myself to finish this game (just entered the

Spoiler

tower

in chapter 11). Three of my buddies have already given up. Maybe I'll try again next week.

 

[BocoDragon]

I really want to enjoy it and it can be enjoyable. Chapters 3, 6, 7, 8, and the earlier sections of chapter 11 are my highlights.

I've had the my issues with this game: namely the early linearity. But I just can't get behind the mindset of people who get all hyperbolic about it "it's broken, it's awful, I hate the stupid creators, I'd rather staple my dick to a tree than play this..." etc.

Most of the issues I had with this game I don't perceive as "utter failures" as some people are want to do. Mostly I just think "hmm... interesting experiment XIII.... but I hope you don't do this again next time because the other way was more fun".. because none of the issues with XIII were ones of laziness, but conscious design decisions. It's like that FF8 example, I remember RPG purists used to rage against the draw system or the SeeD salary, and I would always just roll my eyes and go "oookay.... Sorry it's not the exact same thing you had the last 7 times..." Most of the issues with this game are radical ideas done on purpose just to try them out in one game.

Also.. I just can't see the story as bad! I really enjoy it. To me the most one could say is that it's hollow. It's not great art. It's just "so cool" anime posturing, but I do think that shiny surface of a story is cool! It's an "energy drink" of a videogame story, not a "fine wine". So what?

But of course, people just have different opinions.... No worries.. cest la vie. It's just sometimes I go what the hell? Why all the fuss and hatred? I'm having fun! :lol

 

[ronito]

I really like what they did with the battle system.

I'm sorta surprised that for many gamers out there micro-management = fun.

But I'm hugely disappointed in the story/pacing and lack of an overworld. Really that just kills it. I don't mind the linearity at all. But I like to feel that there's more to the world than a set of corridors.

 

[Squall ASF]

you need to finish the game to unlock the last layer.

No, that would be the lvl 10 access. When I say layer, I mean the grid layers that connect by that long diagonal line. Multiple grid layers per level of the cryst. and I can only access the first layer of lvl 9 that I gained access to by beating the Ch. 11 boss.

 

[hateradio]

I'm sorta surprised that for many gamers out there micro-management = fun.

Some of us like to have more control than others, that's all. Strategizing and making the last minute decisions, what's not fun about that?

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Man I just can't bring myself to finish this game (just entered the

Spoiler

tower

in chapter 11). Three of my buddies have already given up. Maybe I'll try again next week.

What brought about this change in Chapter 11?

 

[BocoDragon]

Fun is subjective. One man's fun is another man's tedium. That said, I do disagree with jgaf when a lot said it is the "worst FF". I dunno. I think it's a "better FF" than FF2 nes, but it's by far and wide my least favorite in the series, for all the reasons I've already discussed - distinct lack of variety, poor writing, low immersion factor, low difficulty, questionable level design, poor world building, handholding;etc - but I would still say it was worth playing. It's a really different kind of game and no matter what my feelings are on it, it's experimental enough for me to respect it. It's like Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter except in Final Fantasy, except not nearly as good.

But once again, it's extremely hard to want to continue buying the [FF] games because I never know what I'm going to get: "am I going to like this?" I've liked every FF I've played, and I still like some aspects of this one but it's striking to me that my current game tastes and the direction of the series (if FF13 can be perceived to be that direction), are polar opposites.

I definitely don't perceive XIII as anything like the worst in the series. I've probably enjoyed this game more than IX (which I DO like), X and X-2.

I swear what many of you are going through with in XIII, I went through with FFX. I HATED that game.. the linearity and lack of overworld was a complete shock, and unlike XIII I wasn't warned about it.... I thought that story was lame anime posturing (about worse concepts than Fal Cie: hating your dad who is a giant monster now SO EMO).. I hated the characters in that (Lulu and her fucking belt skirt? Chicken yellow Tidus and his asymmetrical pants?). It really is that every complaint other people have about XIII I would have applied to FFX ten years ago. People are raging over Vanille? I love Vanile.. I -hated- Tidus!!

And remarkably, that game was well loved by many, Japan's favorite FF, etc. And even I didn't hate it that much. I have more or less enjoyed every FF game. I do enjoy the series as much as I ever did... as long as they continue to promise different directions for the series.

As an aside, I keep buying SMT games, playing 6 hours in, getting bored and then stopping. You're tired of FF and laud SMT as a solution... well that won't be a truth for everyone you know?

To end on a point we can agree on: FFXII is the best FF of the last decade.

Why isn't it fun? Is the micro-management in past games really that tedious and deep and that much of a time sink? It's not Starcraft folks. Why is it so surprising that certain gamers like to control a certain level over their games?

On the other hand, when I switch to other RPGs I will be missing the "macro"-management that XIII offers... changing "orders", macro strategies of paradigm switching etc.

 

[hateradio]

On the other hand, when I switch to other RPGs I will be missing the "macro"-management that XIII offers... changing "orders", macro strategies of paradigm switching etc.

But honestly, if you just stay with the main story (never did the later missions) it's all the same strategy. Rav's to get the stagger bar up, then Com's to suppress its speed, then switch to Com's for [massive] damage once staggered.

Heal if you need to, at the start you debuff enemy, buff yourself, and that's it.

 

[Ricker]

For me I loved chapter 1,2,3,7,9 and 11..currently in 12 and that is great as well...they should of went chapter 1 and 2 for the intro tutorial,then 7 and 11 and made you go back to the earlier chapters/area`s for the missions of 11,with a better way of tracking the 65 missions and shoved the area`s of 4,5 and 6 as part of the missions of 11,and not of made those 2 players,but 3 choose who you want battle teams ....or not

 

[BocoDragon]

But honestly, if you just stay with the main story (never did the later missions) it's all the same strategy. Rav's to get the stagger bar up, then Com's to suppress its speed, then switch to Com's for [massive] damage once staggered.

Heal if you need to, at the start you debuff enemy, buff yourself, and that's it.

I'm on a major boss right now and It's so much more complicated than that! The way I set up my paradigms completely alters the flow of battle in very complicated ways. Even just swapping one character changes the combinations that are possible... By the part of the game that I've made it to, I no longer accept the theory that XIII battles are "simplistic". Actually IMO you are juggling more variables at one time than in older FF games.

Different strokes. Although FF10 isn't one of my favorite FF's (it's actually very, very low although when it first came out I LOVED it) I loved the cast.

Amazing. FFX's cast was the btut of many early-2000s jokes between me and my friends. And now I'm Vanille Defense Force and you hate her.

People have wildly different opinions lol :lol

I dunno. I like FF4 remake and FF10-2 probably as much as FF12 at this point. Doesn't matter.

Actually good point.. FFIV remake is wonderful.

 

[Cep]

I feel other rpgs like Tales games, Dragon Quest games, and Persona 3 offered better macro-management, so I won't.

This a very good point and I feel that it needs to be bolded.

Many other series offer better macro than 13. The real difference is that 13 makes a big deal of it and makes it as flashy as possible.

 

[Crash Station]

I didn't say it wasn't gorgeous. I'm just completely incapable of remembering any of the locations in the game because they all feel so random and there's a huge disconnect for me; it doesn't even feel like an actual "world", hence the problem.

I actually feel the same way about pretty much every other game in the series with the exception of my favorite (7). It's been a lot easier to remember the names in 13 for some reason for me. Lake Bresha, Sunlenth Waterscape, Gary Whittawood; all easy to remember names IMO.

 

[BocoDragon]

Challenge me, dammit!

I believe you will be. I've been stuck on a boss for days now, and I'm loving going back to it with a new strategy every time.

 

[D23]

chapter 12 pisses me off -_-

 

[BocoDragon]

Last night I was fighting a boss and the ai was making me tear my hair out. So I switch paradigms and hope and pray a characters fucking slow on him, but no one does.

That's probably because the boss wasn't susceptible to slow and your AI characters knew it. Or he was susceptible to slow and you hadn't cast Libra yet, which alters how your AIs will behave.

 

[Fuu]

Growth Egg, woohoo! Cheapened out and used Death.

 

[hateradio]

I'm on a major boss right now and It's so much more complicated than that! The way I set up my paradigms completely alters the flow of battle in very complicated ways. Even just swapping one character changes the combinations that are possible... By the part of the game that I've made it to, I no longer accept the theory that XIII battles are "simplistic". Actually IMO you are juggling more variables at one time than in older FF games.

A boss? After Ch 12 I finally realized the usefulness of buff/debuff in this game (where I never buffed in previous chapters, for example). It would have made the last battle in 11 so much quicker if I had.

I don't really think you're juggling that much, I think it feels like that way because the battle doesn't really slow down, so you have to be quick at times to switch when you have to and then jump right back at the enemy to stagger. There was nothing challenging about it; however, I don't feel like grinding in order to do the missions. But that's why I say it's easy.

 

[BocoDragon]

People keep saying this, but I've found every mark to be easy. Sometimes I'll die, which is a nice change of pace, but simply dying doesn't exactly equate to "challenging". I even found Vanille's eidolon to be easy.

Not that I expected the game to be challenging, because this is Final Fantasy, but since the battles are a main focal point I expected better. And if the battles themselves aren't interesting me, then...

We'll see. What chapter are you on?

last boss of chapter 11..not far from you.. you'll know. For all I know you won't have the same experience.. maybe you'll button mash through him. All I know is that with my current character levels, and my level of intellect , I am having a really fun time tackling this challenge. YMMV.

 

[Squall ASF]

I really like the premise of the battle system. Sometimes battles are REALLY FUN! But most of the time I'm just starting out with com/syn/sab, waiting for haste to be cast, and then switching to rav/rav/com.

And if rav/rav/com doesn't work I go with com/com/rav.

Challenge me, dammit!

None of the FF's are even remotely difficult. You simply level up a little more if an enemy seems strong. If you want a greater challenge and to have to use greater strategy than the game forces you to employ, you fight underleveled. Try skipping enemies and taking on bosses underleveled, you'll use more strategy for sure. If it becomes too much, you level up some more. Simple concept. The paradigms offer plenty of strategy in themselves, so it's not the system that is the problem.

 

[mjemirzian]

I really like the premise of the battle system. Sometimes battles are REALLY FUN! But most of the time I'm just starting out with com/syn/sab, waiting for haste to be cast, and then switching to rav/rav/com.

And if rav/rav/com doesn't work I go with com/com/rav.

Challenge me, dammit!

Most traditional RPGs are easy unless you restrict yourself from doing certain things (player defined challenge). If you want a more difficult strategic/tactical challenge try a hard SRPG/tactics game. I wrote a list here you can check out.

If you're not already getting 5 stars on every fight, try going for that first.

 

[Soroc]

That's probably because the boss wasn't susceptible to slow and your AI characters knew it. Or he was susceptible to slow and you hadn't cast Libra yet, which alters how your AIs will behave.

Do I still need to cast a Libra if I hit the right shoulder button and everything is already known about the monster? I was curious about this as sometimes I don't cast Libra b/c when I hit the right shoulder it comes up with all the info already but I ai toons won't still do what I want them to do.

Thanks

 

[Cep]

Most traditional RPGs are easy unless you restrict yourself from doing certain things (player defined challenge). If you want a more difficult strategic/tactical challenge try a hard SRPG/tactics game. I wrote a list here you can check out.

If you're not already getting 5 stars on every fight, try going for that first.

Interesting.

I find it odd that you did not include HHM for FE7. Not the hardest in the series, but pretty balanced a very good challenge to S rank (especially when the RNG hates you).

 

[Gr1mLock]

linearity wasnt even the issue in imo..the pacing in the game is nothing short of horrible..i think the sheer amount of times the game went from being good to irritating warrants a general consensus of indifference.

 

[mjemirzian]

I agree most rpgs are easy, and this is a reason I restrict myself when playing them, but I don't see how it's possible to restrict one's self in FF13 beyond "I"m not going to learn any of the crystarium roles outside of the main default ones". In FF8, I can restrict myself by turning every enemy into a card and not leveling up the whole game, and and not equipping to my hp stat. In FF13, I gottttt... nothing?

What would be a good way to restrict oneself with FF13? A "no paradigm" run?

No grinding.
No upgrades/no accessories.
No items (including shrouds like fortisol).
Get 5 stars on every fight.

No Crystarium run has been done up to

Spoiler

the final bosses last form. It requires a ridiculous amount of grinding for gear upgrades to make up for the lack of crystarium use.

I find it odd that you did not include HHM for FE7. Not the hardest in the series, but pretty balanced a very good challenge to S rank (especially when the RNG hates you).

hmm I did like the HHM S rank but I thought listing the top two most difficult FE challenges were enough. I will definitely consider adding it though!

 

[Fun Factor]

(slightly large post)

I also again bring up this post:

Might have been posted, I found this interesting:

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27187101

FFX maps vs FFXIII maps.

FFXII maps:

.
.
FFX maps:

.
.
For the hell of it FFXII:

.
.
To top it off FFVI:

Outside of FFXI & FFXII (which still had some similar linear levels), FFXIII follows the same design as the rest of the series, so the complaints about it's linearity is confusing.

 

[BocoDragon]

Do I still need to cast a Libra if I hit the right shoulder button and everything is already known about the monster? I was curious about this as sometimes I don't cast Libra b/c when I hit the right shoulder it comes up with all the info already but I ai toons won't still do what I want them to do.

Thanks

I think you don't need to if it's already there.

 

[Squall ASF]

The thing is that this series is about as mainstream as they come, so they have to try to appease as many people as possible. There are far more casual gamers out there that prefer a fast paced fairly light system and to be able to progress through the game in a reasonable amount of time. Dungeon crawlers are a niche and certainly do not appeal to most casual gamers. I can sympathize with you because there are plenty of games where I would have enjoyed some tweaks and challenges but I have to realize they are in this to make money and the greater amount of consumers may not want what I want.

 

[Fun Factor]

Getting 5 stars in every fight seems pretty ridiculous. Often times I'll fight an easy boss fight and end up with three stars. Because you get five stars doesn't make it actually challenging, as that's just a dash to beat a certain time. It's not Mega Man Zero.

As for the other stuff, even when I did those things pre-chapter 11 it didn't make the game any more difficulty.

I've accepted it and have resorted to breaking the game. That way I can get some fun out of breaking it. If the game decides to finally challenge me, I'll accept its duel.

Actually it does make it challenging because it is at it's core a challenge. A good one at that, since it requires strategy & not mindless grinding.
You also get better loot & I believe an achievement for 5 staring all the hunts & some of the bosses.

1. Outside of FF10, those are not straight corridors.
2. Other games offered things to do aside from pressing up on the analog stick, thus making any such linearity a non-issue.
3. Other games were arguably linear but were not on rails.

Outside the world maps, how did they differ from the maps I posted for FFVI & FFXIII?
All you do I walk forward & sometimes to a secondary path that leads to a dead end with a treasure in the 2D FF games.

 

[mjemirzian]

Getting 5 stars in every fight seems pretty ridiculous. Often times I'll fight an easy boss fight and end up with three stars. Because you get five stars doesn't make it actually challenging, as that's just a dash to beat a certain time. It's not Mega Man Zero.

Define 'actually challenging'? If the developers challenge you to finish a battle under a certain time limit, you'll need to use more strategy to reach that limit than you would have spending twice as long.

 

[Lightning]

This game is a huge letdown. It's even worse then FFX and I didn't like FFX. Chapter 13 was ridiculously annoying with long drawn out battles with cheap enemies and a crap final boss.

The story in this game is a joke.

I can't believe I waited 3 years for this...... WTH

 

[mjemirzian]

I find challenge in getting whooped, raped, and ravaged (lol) repeatedly, not by getting five stars after a battle. Then again I haven't touched post-game content, but my position stands: this ain't no action game. In Ninja Gaiden I smile when I get a Master Ninja, because I worked my ass off to get that rank. In FF13 if I get a five star ranking when the actual battle itself was easier than making pancakes, there's not much reward or satisfaction.

The 5 star ranking is a scoring system - getting a high score is its own reward. It is rarely inconsistent because it is a simple math equation based on player and enemy stats. Getting 5 stars is sometimes easy, sometimes hard, but that doesn't make it less of an actual challenge. You're just choosing to ignore it for whatever reason. If it were really 'easy' for you, you'd be getting 5 stars on every fight without trying.

There's little difference between a game with a scoring system that is difficult to score on, and a similar game with no scoring system that is difficult to clear.

 

[Lightning]

What's worse? FF13, or the fact your username is named after a character in FF13?

I'm regretting my username choice now. It was selected more out of my blind hype. After the awesomeness of FFXII I had really high hopes....

The dungeon designs suck, the missions are boring because of how they were set up, fight, fight, fight, cutscene, fight, fight, fight, rinse and repeat for 60 hours that's all this game is. I have absolutely no motivation to do anything after defeating the final boss because other then pointless throphies, which don't mean crap to me, there is no point to it. Absolutely crappy post game....

Fun battle system until the end when the lack of control makes batttles harder then they should be.

This game could have been something special had it not been for certain decisions.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

The datalog is kind of a replacement for the NPC conversation. In previous FF games you had to press a button in front of an NPC to learn about the world. Now you press a button in the datalog menu. While this certainly lacks a virtual-social aspect, it does the job of explaining the story of the world.

This is less about the datalog talking about the world and more about the having to read the datalog for major plot points.

I completly agree with Himuro. Towns make RPGs to RPGs, imo. They enrich the role playing aspect, make the world alive, make the journey and the world believable. FFXIII is just corridor after corridor with no connection.

This isn't it either.

Great RPGs can be made without towns, safe areas, home bases, etc.

XIII just does a bad job.

....but but but FFXIII a linear tube!

It still is, the tube just has a rupture at chapter 11.

This game is a huge letdown. It's even worse then FFX and I didn't like FFX. Chapter 13 was ridiculously annoying with long drawn out battles with cheap enemies and a crap final boss.

The story in this game is a joke.

I can't believe I waited 3 years for this...... WTH

You waited 4 years actually.

 

[User 10639]

What's worse? FF13, or the fact your username is named after a character in FF13?

That's gotta hurt. :lol

Outside of FFXI & FFXII (which still had similar linear levels), FFXIII follows the same design as the rest of the series, so the complaints about it's linearity is confusing.

You know, this is intellectually dishonest BS. 12 may have linear levels (albeit nowhere near the degree present in 13), but the world has a continuity to it. You can go to any area at any time as long as you are willing to walk there, with a few story-related exceptions. The maps themselves aren't that impressive, and walking across a dotted line to get to the next area certainly doesn't help with immersion, but they're all connected in such a way that backtracking and diversions from the storyline are both possible at nearly every point in the game.

Essentially, story progression is linear, but the world is presented in a nonlinear matter. It doesn't close you off from previous levels, and it doesn't force you down a path from which you can never deviate. To a lesser extent this design philosophy exists in previous FFs as well, which allow you to revisit areas in an airship and deviate from the storyline with minigames and sidequests (bad as those may be.) 10 barely clung on to it and 13 ditched it altogether. You may think that that was a good choice or a gutsy one, but don't pretend like it's present in every other FF besides 11/12.

 

[vazel]

I'm surprised at this criticism so close to launch. You usually have to wait 30-60 days for the hype to die down a little to voice criticisms like that without being made out to be a troll. But I guess that has something to do with Himuro's very well argued and researched posts(you sure know your Final Fantasy) that has made it safe for others to agree with him.

I do agree too, it's definitely the weakest Final Fantasy I've played but I'm still having fun with the game.

 

[Thrakier]

This isn't it either.

Great RPGs can be made without towns, safe areas, home bases, etc.

Hm, maybe you are right. Shin Megami Nocturne is my fave RPG ever (after FFVII I guess) and it had no towns too. However it had a mainworld and it didn't feel as linear as FFXIII. I don't know...it's not that FFXIII is a very bad game...it's just...boring...and somehow...lifeless? I don't know. Even chapter 11 is kinda boring, just running from point A to B to C to A.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

It's not about the linear level design, however. It's about the linear design of the game.

BTW: I've just gotten to Chapter 11 and am loving it.

So, so far in the story, we have got:

Final Fantasy X:

Spoiler

One character must turn into an evil creature that will save the world, er I mean destroy it.

and Xenogears:

Spoiler

Protected, cushioned, utopia society (in other words, Solaris) that is actually being maintained to farm humans.

But regarding the Ragnarok spoiler,

Spoiler

at what point does the game actually reveal to you that Vanille was the one that turned into Ragnarok during the War of Transgression?

I just all of a sudden opened the Datalog once reaching Gran Pulse, and it was like, HOLY SHIT MEGATON.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

But regarding the Ragnarok spoiler,

Spoiler

at what point does the game actually reveal to you that Vanille was the one that turned into Ragnarok during the War of Transgression?

I just all of a sudden opened the Datalog once reaching Gran Pulse, and it was like, HOLY SHIT MEGATON.

Spoiler

I think she implies it when she gets her Eidolon.

 

[User 10639]

I'm surprised at this criticism so close to launch. You usually have to wait 30-60 days for the hype to die down a little to voice criticisms like that without being made out to be a troll.

FFXII got the same kind of vocal criticism right from the start, too. X may have as well, although I wasn't around for that so I can't really say. Regardless, the FF fanbase is pretty much split on nearly every entry, even if such displeasure doesn't manifest itself so close to release most of the time.

But I guess that has something to do with Himuro's very well argued and researched posts(you sure know your Final Fantasy) that has made it safe for others to agree with him.

It probably has more to do with the fairly negative reception of the JP launch of the game, and the fact that Square basically lied about (or hid) many aspects of the game during pre-release hype. This game had some ridiculously misleading marketing.

 

[Yoshichan]

So I'm planning on replaying this again, how long will it take? I seriously have no clue since my last two saves were pretty much 100%-runs. Spoiler tag it if you wish.

 

[User 10639]

Spoiler

I think she implies it when she gets her Eidolon.

But it appears in the datalog before that, when you reach Gran Pulse. I noticed because I was reading the datalog whenever the game updated, and I, too, went WHAT THE FUCK upon reading that information. It's so randomly placed.

edit: also I don't think it's actually true so that adds an extra layer of confusion

 

[B.K.]

But regarding the Ragnarok spoiler,

Spoiler

at what point does the game actually reveal to you that Vanille was the one that turned into Ragnarok during the War of Transgression?

I just all of a sudden opened the Datalog once reaching Gran Pulse, and it was like, HOLY SHIT MEGATON.

Spoiler

I was doing hunts and entered and area and she said told everyone she became Ragnarok.

 

[Fuu]

nm

 

[Yoshichan]

Do you think we'll get an FF13: International?

Never.

 

[jiggle]

i was reading how ppl are selling their growth egg after capping all 6 crystariums
aren't u guys worried if they release a DLC pack and raising the cap, and there's no way to get another egg? XD

 

[DigitalDevil]

I just beat the boss at the end of chapter 11 and I have to say I was underwhelmed. The strategy guide and some impressions on here had me scared it was going to be a tough fight....

I guess going into the battle with all main roles maxed and all weapons maxed in the second form helps :lol

 

[Yoshichan]

i was reading how ppl are selling their growth egg after capping all 6 crystariums
aren't u guys worried if they release a DLC pack and raising the cap, and there's no way to get another egg? XD

Chances that they will release a DLC (and a Crystarium-raise-cap at that!) is pretty much non-existent. But just the thought of selling something so rare and exclusive as the egg breaks my heart.