VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
They said that it's not worth creating new jobs for tank and healer so expect just DPS jobs from this point on.
Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT2| RIP Bowmage 2015-2017.
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They said that it's not worth creating new jobs for tank and healer so expect just DPS jobs from this point on.
Tragicomedy
Member
Two things:
1) Can I get an invite back into the GAF FC? Was in last year after HW released, then took a long break from the game? Character name is Hold Steady.
2) Am I better off finishing off leveling a class to 60 before alt jobs for the armory bonus? I'm sitting on a weird 54 DRK/53 PLD/low level WAR combo that doesn't seem smart.
1) Can I get an invite back into the GAF FC? Was in last year after HW released, then took a long break from the game? Character name is Hold Steady.
2) Am I better off finishing off leveling a class to 60 before alt jobs for the armory bonus? I'm sitting on a weird 54 DRK/53 PLD/low level WAR combo that doesn't seem smart.
Vic_Viper
Member
They really said that? Would be kinda weird to not have any more Tanks in the future at all. Im sure we will be seeing one atleast with the next Expansion.
What class were those two people figting in the beginning of the trailer? The girl looked like a dancer.
Also.......
FUCK YES SQUARE!!! You just earned a years sub from me!
Is there a write up yet of everything they announced/discussed at the event?
They said new tank and healer jobs were mainly utilized by old tanks and healers. I have never healed in any serious capacity and only DPS for minor content. Have been tanking since 1.18 so it's probably dead on to just revamp existing heals/tanks to make sure they're balanced before introducing a 4th of each to break the meta even worse.
Tragicomedy
Member
But that's the thing. Tanks and healers enjoy new gameplay experiences, too. There's a reason a million of us rushed into the new offerings when HW released, even if people were questioning how optimal they were.
Stone Ocean
Member
Whats stopping tank and healer players from trying out the new jobs?
1) reapply in game, mention you used to be in the fc in the comment section.
2) Yes.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Like most other trinity MMOs, tanks and healers deal with the few scraps they get while DPS get the full course meals.
They've realized this which is why they don't need to give them cool new jobs to level anymore. They can just funnel them towards the DPS and the tanks and healers will deal with it.
Glendemonium
Member
This reinforces my belief that the revamped combat system is going to blur the lines of roles, where certain jobs can end up tanking if they choose. EX: DRG or SAM could pick tank abilities and they become tanks... I don't know why but that's what I'm seeing, it sounds dumb and farfetched, but its like they might be trying to dismantle the trinity in favor of mechanics and strategy.
That would actually be kinda cool, have a job that could fill two roles just by changing abilities and gear. It's a longshot, but it would be neat.
The current meta is just DPS as fast and hard, that includes tanks and healers, so it leaves out certain classes that can't contribute to raid wide dps which is pretty unfair.
Now is the time to go hunt down and secure your ARR patch 2.99 HW patch 3.6 Stormblood leveling buddy, if you mean to level more than one job in the early SB times, so you can swap off who's leveling a DPS and who is queue carrying. I don't think the situation is going to be as dire as some are predicting--while 50-60 is going to be DPS heavy as hell the proportions should even out at 60--but might as well have a plan of attack.
Honestly I am incredibly curious to see how they fix the tank meta without introducing a 4th--healers they can get away with a rebalance on if they do it right since AST's stances let them cover both the regen healer and the mitigation healer slots functionally if not perfectly, but WAR's dominance over PLD and DRK comes from a pretty fundamental job design place. I just don't see how any rebalance isn't primarily to fix PLD and let WAR ultimately remain the imbalanced lolfest it is, or just destroying WAR to the point it plays entirely differently to make it more like DRK/PLD.
Honestly I am incredibly curious to see how they fix the tank meta without introducing a 4th--healers they can get away with a rebalance on if they do it right since AST's stances let them cover both the regen healer and the mitigation healer slots functionally if not perfectly, but WAR's dominance over PLD and DRK comes from a pretty fundamental job design place. I just don't see how any rebalance isn't primarily to fix PLD and let WAR ultimately remain the imbalanced lolfest it is, or just destroying WAR to the point it plays entirely differently to make it more like DRK/PLD.
This would be extremely forward thinking of them and it's also why I don't expect it at all.
The whole reason they went all-in on the trinity in the first place is because they needed some tried and true formula to salvage 1.0's mess.
Tragicomedy
Member
Nothing. Some players prefer certain roles and look forward to new play experiences when they buy an expansion.
DPS players were ecstatic on the Reddit discord last night laughing at tanks and healers and yelling "salt" over and over. That's not representative of the community as a whole (or maybe it is), but it gives every impression they would not have tried either job unless it was pure deeps.
Thanks. Will do later today when I can get on.
Yeah. I've only spent any significant amount of time on this and Warcraft, but it feels that way at times. The pros being you get shorter queues and get to control/influence the outcome of group content more than DPS. The cons being literally everything else (slower farming, slower questing, higher repair bills, more stressful play, focus of blame when stuff goes badly).
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I think people are going far with the "combat revamp"/"battle system changes" bit. It's more likely that there's just going to be some potency and cd changes and the jobs will largely play similar to how they do now.
Jiilean should be there with her bf, that all I know about for Ultros though lol I didn't meet a single Ultros player at NA fanfest.
If they were to have made another tank for Storm, I'd assume the next tank would fight with WAR for OT dominance. But with DPS being the big selling point for jobs though. Two OT type tanks would just kill DRK and PLD outright. I don't trust SE to add another tank till they fix the current tanks.
Stone Ocean
Member
You say that as if tank players haven't been extremely obnoxious about this as if they're owed a brand new job every single expansion.
Meanwhile healers don't really seem to give a shit?
Altered Juice
Member
Yoshi said something about their attempts to increase tanks failed so they decided to "fix" paladin and white mage for the 1% who raid, and add more to the pile of unbalanced dps
New players holding dat L
SynthFetish
Member
That's probably the plan. I can see them using the upcoming system changes to bring DRK and PLD to a better place and then drop a new tank in a patch.
It mostly makes me just expect that their tank fix is going to be 100% all-in on Paladin and we're probably going to get two more years of 8-man parties being '7 dudes of whatever job and a warrior'. I sort of half expected them to just split MT and OT for LB build purposes and force comp that way, though.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Yeah, I found it funny that their justification was based on balance that really only matters to a small part of the playerbase in a small piece of content.
All the jobs in this game are viable to complete the story/dungeons/primals/ex-primals/PotD/whatever.
It's only at the highest levels does this balance actually matter, where the people there are likely to prune out jobs that aren't conducive to the speed run/world first comp. There's probably never going to be a time where some jobs aren't going to be pruned out because there are only 8 slots, and unless all jobs are the same some are going to be demonstrably better than others even if it's only by a small amount.
People who don't raid probably don't even know what sort of balance Yoship was talking about because it's simply not relevant in most of the game unless you try to clear raids close to patch release.
What will happen is that Stormblood will come out along with the new raids. The best raid teams will then look at the changes, then decide which two tanks are the best and which two healers are the best and ignore the third since they've determined the best pair to use and we'll be in a similar situation as we're in now in regards to the raid meta where certain jobs are preferred over others.
I've sort of made my peace with this already. I really like the style of Samurai so I will definitely be looking to level it early to see if the gameplay portion of it lines up with me. PLD will probably be meh still, they could make it a top DPS tank job and I still will be aversive to it because my problems with it are purely from a gameplay standpoint. WAR and DRK I will dabble with them for sure to see how the new changes measure up.
Thanks for the map with highlighted locations.
Has anything been mentioned about with Thavnair before? Also trying to remember the name of the island that was destroyed/vanished back in the 2.0 patch story. Wondering where on the map it is.
AlphaDragoon
Member
Samurai is a melee DPS. An iaido-using melee DPS. All is right with the world. Thank you, Yoshi-P. ;-;
In other news, goodbye Ninja.
In other news, goodbye Ninja.
I play PLD on a static that is super casual but let's not act like we can't see parses and want the same deal as other groups with better synergy.
The meta doesn't occur only because it's efficient, it's because of the lack of balancing. If PLD, DRK, and WAR were all equal in DPS then we wouldn't be having this discussion but here we are. DPS will always be the driver here so as much as people want to say the that 1% raid group opinions don't matter, it's always going to be there causing problems for the rest of the population.
Oh and A12 fucking sucks as a PLD Jesus fucking Christ.
The meta doesn't occur only because it's efficient, it's because of the lack of balancing. If PLD, DRK, and WAR were all equal in DPS then we wouldn't be having this discussion but here we are. DPS will always be the driver here so as much as people want to say the that 1% raid group opinions don't matter, it's always going to be there causing problems for the rest of the population.
Oh and A12 fucking sucks as a PLD Jesus fucking Christ.
Vic_Viper
Member
In-Game footage of the new era Kugane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7pqxU35WVM
Didnt think it would be open in 4.0. Looks awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7pqxU35WVM
Didnt think it would be open in 4.0. Looks awesome!
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I guess WAR and SAM Will go together well if SAM does slashing damage and doesn't have its own slashing resistance down debuff.
Tragicomedy
Member
Who said anything about owed? Kinda going strawman on me here. I'm struggling to understand why Square wouldn't show love to all three roles.
The official excuse about balancing doesn't hold water unless people honestly believe that DPS classes are all carefully balanced right now. It also ignores role balance and, more importantly, retention. When both new jobs are eagerly anticipated and DPS, we are certain to see players gravitate that way. Didn't ninja queues show that, when tanks and healers were charging gil for queues?
Stone Ocean
Member
The point is not that they're balanced, is that they're already messy as it is and throwing more jobs into the mix won't make fixing that any easier. First we make it so specific tanks and healers aren't pretty much mandatory, then we worry about adding more so they're actually played without being overbuffed to shit.
As for the NIN bit, as someone said before, when NIN came out it was already very late into the ARR cycle so people weren't really leveling jobs. In SB the level cap is being raised so while people are leveling their DPS jobs, tank and healer players will also be leveling theirs.
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
I'm pretty worried they will make AST a lot worse cause this team can't balance well anyway.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Balance is a constant act. FFXIV in particular is pretty good when it comes to balance. Every job is viable. It only matters when you're trying to speedrun/world first new savage raid content in minimal ilvl gear. The other 99% of the game they are more than playable and can clear.
Yoship said it himself that the number of tank/healer players remained roughly similar (why would anyone expect otherwise I have no clue, DPS always outnumber tanks and healers in any MMO I've bothered to look at stats for). So they've decided it's not worth making new jobs for them over DPS.
These two new jobs are going to be more attractive for tank and healer players to abandon their main roles for.
Would be kind of funny if tank and healer populations went down to sub 5-10% of the total player population (right now they are around 20 something percent each I think). Probably won't happen but I wonder how they would respond if it got to such an extreme point that longer than an hour queue times became the norm.
Tragicomedy
Member
That's exactly what I mean by role balance. DRK maybe didn't expand the tanking pool, but it certainly helped tank retention. How will two new DPS classes help?
I'm also in disagreement with Yoshi about the balance what we have first mentality. Not that I'm opposed to it (paladin is my most played, I'll take love), but why wouldn't that also apply to DPS jobs? Certain classes are already left out of the meta. How does more help?
RIP monks.
Stone Ocean
Member
Because DPS balance issues are much tamer. You have one job that is in an actual shitty spot and two jobs that just fell out of flavor, meanwhile tanks and healers have both two out of three jobs in pretty fucked up situations.
Tragicomedy
Member
I'm admittedly arguing from a position of ignorance end game, but this doesn't reflect anything I've read at all. Paladins are perfectly viable for all end game content, as are all DPS classes. Correct? White Mages can complete everything, just not optimized for the current meta.
So you're exaggerating the deficiencies of a healer and tank class, while ignoring the same shortcomings of three DPS classes? That doesn't make sense to me.
Balance seems to be fairly solid for everything but ultra competitive 1% stuff.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
The thing I've noticed is people speaking as if this portion of balance we're talking about applies to anything outside of world first/speed run savage tier raid comps on/close to new patch release. Like PLD, WHM, MNK, etc are 2.0 WAR tier. In 99% of the game it doesn't matter.
Most of the playerbase doesn't care about savage or makes serious attempts at it so basing new jobs on savage balance instead of something that caters to more than a small percentage of people seems funny. Would be interested to see what the actual percentage of players who actually try savage raids and actually clear them are.
In the end they'e made their decision. Not much to do other than play and/or complain. Which I've done and will probably be doing more of.
No, because the excelling in the DPS side is their multiplicative synergy effects; the deficiency in the PLD/WHM is on the design side of a tank with a poor gameplay loop and poor skillset for the raid design (and, realistically, even a Physical heavy one doesn't really make them any better) and WHM existing as a throughput healer in a game where throughput is rarely the issue.
MNK, BLM, and SMN pale in comparison to the benefits provided of the others; PLD/WHM have drawbacks because what they want to do doesn't fit the game they're in. My takeaway of fixing tanks / healers is more on the side of readjusting how tanking and healing themselves work in the game rather than fixing the utility provided by the DPS to not be so heavily stacked.
I guess what I'm saying is if they just bandaid new cool shit for tanks / healers as opposed to readjusting how we tank and heal encounters then, yes, I can agree with your point 100%; I just assume they want to readjust what it means to tank and heal in the game a bit more than "Fell Cleave 2: The Cleavening" and hope that's cool with everyone.
I really hope not...
tiggerkiddo
Member
EU Fanfest is the one I wish I could have gone to
the_sun_king
Member
I found out they're implementing a move feature finally.
The biggest argument for balancing tanks is the search for PLD/DRK groups. They don't exist in any real number because it's absolutely stupid to not have a WAR there. You objectively lose utility and added dps without a WAR.
It's not okay to enter a battle in savage as a PLD and not be able to trigger a shield swipe for instance because all attacks are magical for 90% of a battle. That fucking sucks and speaks more to bad planning on SEs part than anything. There are legit issues with some jobs.
It's not okay to enter a battle in savage as a PLD and not be able to trigger a shield swipe for instance because all attacks are magical for 90% of a battle. That fucking sucks and speaks more to bad planning on SEs part than anything. There are legit issues with some jobs.
Because it does matter? I don't do Extreme/Savage content while its relevant. I still feel extremely self concious when I play Paladin or Monk because I know that we could be beating stuff faster/more efficiently if I was playing another job. Players who chose to play those jobs shouldn't feel like they have to work three times as hard as someone equally skilled in another job of the same role just because their job can't do what the game is currently geared towards.
I'm reminded of when I was casually farming Gordias when it was new. I eventually made the decision to fully swap from Paladin to Warrior because using Paladin in 3 out of the four fights wasn't fun, even though I loved the job. Just because "every job is viable" doesn't mean casual players cant care for those differences.
Tragicomedy
Member
Haha, I'm right there with you on that last point. It feels strange to go this route, but the ship has sailed.
I don't see any significant changes to how tanking or healing work, but hopefully I'm wrong. I imagine they'll slightly buff Paladin DPS and call it a day.
That's the rub. Paladins can tank everything I've attempted no problem, but people are worried about their damage output and boosting the group's DPS. The fact that we have tanking classes tanking OUTSIDE their tank stance in order to do more damage is baffling. Same for healers spending a huge chunk of their time spamming DOTs and damage spells.
It strikes me that the real issue is not enough consistent damage outside of predictable tank busters. Why not just increase boss damage to require actual active tanking and healing, and increase damage from DPS classes somewhat to compensate? The fact that end game is focused around everyone maximizing damage is strange to me in a game that adheres to the trinity concept.
Stone Ocean
Member
Job balance applies to anyone doing endgame content. Having shitty comps means you'll have a harder time progressing, even if they're viable.
As of the last census, over 80k players have beaten A9S. That's almost 20% of the active playerbase which is very slightly lower than the amount of tank players in the game. The idea that Savage is only for a negligible minority is horseshit.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
We must be playing different games then if you have to "work three times as hard" as a PLD or MNK. If you're doing non savage content which means you are probably using DF, then you are getting a mixed comp every time where each member is of a varying job and skill level. At that level, what matters more than anything else is your own skill level.
NIN and DRG are good because of their synergy with other jobs. No one queues into Duty Finder expecting to not only get other jobs that synergize with their own but also expect them to have gear and do DPS numbers equal to that of a top tier raider fully taking advantage of the things that people are talking about here in a specific raiding context.
No one is saying that numbers can't be tweaked or buffs can't be given out or that casual players can't want buffs, just saying that basing the decision partly on balance is weird when that balance is only really significant to a small portion of the playerbase in a small portion of the game's total content.
All this is ignoring the fact that there are also debuffs that are really fucked up. Who is helping the mnk with blunt dmg? Why can WAR give itself a slash debuff and also an attack down on command but DRK and PLD don't get anything nearly as impressive or are held up by other mechanics to even perform these debuff.
Synergy is absolutely critical right now considering how big a leg up debuffs grant for DPS and it's absolutely biased for certain jobs.
Synergy is absolutely critical right now considering how big a leg up debuffs grant for DPS and it's absolutely biased for certain jobs.
tiggerkiddo
Member
The issue with MNK I think aside from that ramp up time is the fact they don't bring much support to the party. A traited Mantra is nice but what else do they have? A DRK can do what Dragon Kick does and a NIN has Trick Attack, Goad, Shadewalker, and Smoke Screen. DRG boosts the dps of bards and also has a party wide DPS buff (well if you're close enough).
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